I think there's something I don't get

I think there's something I don't get.

Let's assume that the theory of supply and demand is true for a second (It seems to be true empirically in the real world).

Let's assume there's 500 million workers on the first world making around 150 bucks a day.
Let's also assume there's 2 Billion people working for 10USD daily.
Let's also assume there's another 2 Billion people working for 2USD daily.

I don't think the 500 million guys are magically smarter or magically superior to the guys making much less, and those guys seems to be healthy and smart enough to produce the same as those first worlders.

So, following the logic.
What is stopping, acording to supply and demand laws to move jobs from more expensive places to cheaper places.
Why should a capitalist hire one guy at 150 dollars if he could buy 15 guys at 10 dollars or 70 guys at 2 dollars, is not like magically the single guy at 150 dollars will produce more.

So, what does this mean?
Will the 500 millions accept they need to lower a lot their wages?

Other urls found in this thread:

zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-10/west-will-become-new-‘third-world’-pricewaterhousecoopers
richleebruce.com/economics/3rd-world.html
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Because newsflash, not all capitalists are as evil as your commie jew marx has told you

kill yourself

nothing, that's why we establish a minimum wage every few years. also 15 cheap guys in an office job will not be as effective as 1 expensive guy who knows his shit. kind of retarded logic OP

most of the thirld world are getting their education.

you don't need a college degree to be a factory worker in some chinese sweat shop making nike shoes.

what's your point? are you saying they're making 150 bucks a day?

Let me copypasta something I wrote earlier as a reply to someone else.
Will add to it specifically for you after this.

So to understand this better, im going to make a an assumption. Suppose for a moment that countries chose not to print or destroy their money. The amount of money in their economy is set, no amount of money is made or lost. Every country has its own currency. Ok?

Now, the simplest, kind of cop-out answer to your question would simply be:


Of course, it is not that simple. What creates differences in wealth of two countries is the technology they have. Farmers in uganda have to work the field by hand, shoemakers have to make shoes by hand. A farmer in america has machines and so does the shoemaker in america. So lets assume that the american worker, on avarage, can produce 100x as many items per hour worked than a ugandan worker. This means america is 100x richer than uganda. If uganda wanted to sell their beans in america, their one hour of work would only be worth 1/100th of an american hour of work. This means that they can only buy 1/100th of an american hour of work with one hour of their own work. This means that if both countries have the same amount of money per person, so that every american has 1000 dollars and every ugandese has 1000 shillings, then logically, one dollar, which can be exchanged for goods in america, can be exchanged for 100 times as many goods in uganda.

Now, you might think "wont they just buy everything in uganda", but that is a common mistake to make. If an american paid a ugandan with dollars, the ugandan would have sold his 100 hours of uganda work for the equivalent of one hour of american work. It can then buy 1 american hour back. That one hour is worth 100 ugandan hours. Overall he is no better or worse off than if he had just bought ugandan stuff, except that now they have to ship it, which costs money. So no trade will occur in this scenario.

This difference in level of technological (aka productive capacity) leads directly to the different values of the currencies. Trade logically only occurs when both countries have different specialities. If uganda can grow bananas with half the effort of america, and america can grow wood with half the effort, then they will trade bananas and wood. Why?

Remember the exchange rate of shillings to dollars is 100. Ugandans have to work 100 times as much for the same wealth as americans. But for bananas, ugandans work half the normal rate. They only have to work 50 hours of bananas for every american hour. So if they make 50 hours of bananas, they can trade it for one american hour, which they can trade for the equivalent of 100 ugandan hours. The same applies to america, where half an hour of wood can buy you 100 ugandan hours, or the equivalent of 1 american hour. This will lead american to make wood for uganda, and ugandans to make bananas for americans. This causes trade. It is a net gain for both countries involved, because it saves labouring.

Lastly, in real life there are some other factors that make things complicated. Our model assumes that all the money made by the farmers and woodcutters stays in those countries. In real life, bussinesses in richer countries open factories in poorer areas, where they pay the workers less than the amount they worked (this is what marx calls exploitation), and the remainder (the profit) goes back to the original country (such as america). This creates a flow of money back to america without anything real backing it, making it richer and allowing it to import more goods than they would normally (our scenario) could have done. This leads to the undercutting of the native industry by lower priced goods, which leads to job loss and poverty. At the same time, american companies also just move production overseas and do the same trick as described above. This moving of production overseas directly destroys the technology, the factories, the means of production, that made america (or any nation) richer to begin with. This is capital flight, this is what caused Detroit to fall into ruins, the rustbelt, etc.

That's the fucking problem, moron. Its the fact that porky had that muh power over the quality of life of everyone in the first and third world.


Faggot. OPs post highlights why capitalists are indeed evil.

Not retard.
they're producing the same or more to their capitalist masters than one single white guy.

So specific to your question:
There is nothing stopping them. The more they move jobs, the more profit they make, the more developed the third world becomes.
The only thing that prevents this is import tax, cost of shipping, protectionism, etc. But the more you move jobs (decrease tech here and increase it there), the more the currencies in both countries and the incomes in both countries start to level out.

but you're talking about the job market. you need to look at the employee like a product. remember that when total supply > total demand of a product, competition occurs between sellers, not buyers.
a well-educated, motivated, intelligent person is in low supply but high demand, so they'll be more expensive (be paid another wage) than those who are not.

So refferencing explaintion related, that wont happen. The "high wages" IE purchasing power is directly related to your relative productivity compared to other people. Unless you move factories and jobs, machinery and tools from the first world to the third world, wages will not drop due to trade with the third world.
If the whole world were to become socialist, there wouldnt be a massive drop in wages, because rich areas already produce more. We are assuming here that they wont be retarded and make one giant country right away. The next steps would be the helping of development of the third world by sending material goods for free and trading in a mutually beneficial way (which is a given with socialism). This also benefits the first world because the third world can use their specific productive advantages of their region better, resulting in a rise in quality and quantity of products for less labour.

yeah, let's ignore even africans now can get university education to become engineers now.

so what?

like I said, you don't need a college (what you mean by intelligent and movitated guy) for most factory jobs.

???

Yes, under capitalism it happens. OP asks if this is going to happen in socialism. Its not going to.

he's asking if the white guys will revolt when the capitalists will lower their wages so they can compete.

t. OP

I don't understand OP, this happens all the time, it's the primary driving force behind the destruction of labor rights and stagnation of wages.

Oh possibly.

but will first worlders accept to become thirld world?

that's the question.

I dunno. Probably not.

Fixed capital investments

Shipping costs + Differences in purchasing power (try selling a $40 t-shirt in china)


Labor is not perfectly liquid etc

I don't think you can sustain a worker population that is at least 10x more expensive than most of the world.

It doesn't make sense.

In what sense?

wages.

first world wages is at least 10x times more expensive than latinoamerica, asia, africa, middle east, india.

The first world worker is also more productive than the third world worker, because there is more machinery. So per hour he makes more things, which means he is more valuable and gets paid more.

you know China owns now the world manufacturing?

zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-10/west-will-become-new-‘third-world’-pricewaterhousecoopers

You know that lots of production is still done in the first world at higher efficiency?

richleebruce.com/economics/3rd-world.html
(this triggers the commies)

Only really expensive goods, most of USA manufacturing is gonne.
US GDP is 70% consumption, not production.

Teach me how you can increase your gdp by only consuming.

you know most of that consumption is produced in china, mexico and south america, right?

which is why factory workers tend to be underpaid. are you trying to be inconsistent on purpose?

Dude do you know what consumption means? It means using stuff for personal use. Its not making stuff, its using stuff up.
You litterally cannot grow your gdp by consuming, you have to produce stuff for it.

the first factories to move to cheaper places are the ones that are low skilled.

so, poor nations will first get those factories, as they develop their wages increase and suddenly they become too expensive for such factories.

now africa is starting to get such industries.

So, my point still stands, some jobs depends on cheap labour, and the west can't stop the fact their wages are 10 times more expensive on average that most of the world.

By simple logic, their wages will decrease or stagnate.

What I am trying to ask: is if this case will means the first worlders will accept to become poorer so the thirld world develops.

I'm trying to say that 70% of american economy (GDP) is basically just consuming goods produced on other countries.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact you can't sustain a population that way.

Mate.
You.
Litterally.
Cant.
Increase.
GDP.
By.
Eating.
Stuff.

"Consumption" by its definition is not production, its not gdp. Trade might be, making profit might be, eating beans grown in mexico isnt.

I'm just using what the american goverment says bro.

Never trust the american government.

so, let's say is not true that most of american jobs have moved to china and india?

It is definately true.
Im just saying that you cannot create value (monetary or labour) by not working.
The effects of capital flight are already being felt and the governments of the world gladly go along with it.

good.

now can someone answer my question:

Will the first world accept now to reduce their standarts of living and become just like the thirld world?

Lol no. I already told you no before.
Its either going to be fascism (which is going to give lots of war and no real solution) or socialism.

I'm not so sure, I think capitalism will die in the end because of demographics and automatization, but I don't see that soon.

We already got the beginnings of fascism and socialism in almost all of the first world.

Stopped reading right there.

Good question OP.

Let me put it to you like this. I can get a haircut down the street for 20$. I can also get a haircut in Burma for $0.02. Why shouldn't I go to Burma to get my haircut?

Answer this question and then think of how things like logistics, tariffs, cost efficiency etc. might apply to your own question.

On a tangential note. Way back when (but not anymore in the west) people figured out that relying too much on imports from other countries was a bad idea because it weakened your country and strengthened theirs. But nationless corporations are unconcerned with this and to get back to your question if it does come down to it and a corporation can save money by exporting the means of production elsewhere they will. This is the reason why the USA in general has only a skeleton crew left for manufacturing and is setting itself up to fail should the Chinese ever decide to impose sanctions on the USA.

Do you see something happening in the next years?


It seems to be empirically true, for the most part.

Yes, happening.
Not sure if I like it, but it is happening.

Do you realize that most of our products are assembled in Third World countries? Do you realize that every electronic device you've seen in your life was built through slave and child labour? Do you realize that most of the clothes you've wore were made in sweatshops?

You're just describing how things are currently going.