I need a redpill. How come Venezuela didn't turned into Scandinavian country, they literally had oil and same political system as them.
Why Venezuela is not like Nordic countries?
Noah Sanchez
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Adrian Hall
Nordic countries still have the ability to extract wealth from developing nations through their corporations and have more favorable trade relations with the rest of the developed world than Venezuela does.
Nordic countries also don't have the same history of being a victim of imperialism that Latin American countries have. It's hard to build a social democracy when you're starting with less than nothing.
Caleb Turner
Monroe…… doctrine.
Jonathan Powell
In addition to this, the nordic countries were build up because they were close to the soviet union. This made them essential allies for the USA. So the USA build them up and tried to keep them on their side. To keep them on the US side, with the soviet union right on their doorstep, they had to keep the workers happy and give lots of concessions while still maintaining their capitalist mode of production. This meant the US couldnt fuck them over without them going to the soviet red block.
This isnt true for venezuela. The US only has a net loss from chavoism. But as you can see with the fall of the soviet union, the social democracy of the EU has been degenerating and getting smaller and smaller. We EU folks are clinging onto the last bit of the welfare state as hard as we can, but every crisis a bit more is wiped away.
Norway is doing somewhat okay with their oil, but you can see what happens when you give the capitalist a nanometer as in england. Massive oil boom, yet rising unemployment and poverty while privatising everything, plunging the english working class even below their non-oil possessing european counterparts.
Jason Cooper
Democracy, duh.
Ayden Howard
why didn't Britain during its own oil boom?
Lincoln Morgan
The oil is very low quality crude that has a very high price of refinement, this means that the break even price on oil is around $100 a barrel for Venezuela. At this point it is literally impossible for Venezuela to export oil profitably.
That being said social democracy never works so dont try it. I suggest planned economy via paul cockshott vouchers
Jaxson Smith
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Nicholas Torres
The stuff other user's have said plus the fact that Norway saves its oil monies instead of spending it all right away so when prices fall they can still pay for their gibs. The other Nordic countries all have far more diverse economies and they all have waaaaay less corruption.
Thomas Moore
If you implement it in Venezuela right now, the economy will continue to fail as it simply can't bring in the material goods that it needs and Cockshott's planning ideas will be "discredited". Also, don't go for labor vouchers. You could change his system to in-kind planning entirely.
Jeremiah Davis
yeah i dont suggest it in any national economy that is not reasonably self sufficent.
ok but how do you distribute resources? use money? or the energy distribution certificate?
Noah Rodriguez
Cookie algorithm. Also, read this:
www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/1990s/1993/no-1066-june-1993/beyond-capitalism
I don't think you know what "in-kind" means or why it matters.
Robert James
I know what calculation in kind is and it's what most labor voucher economies as well as the energy certificate would be based on, my question is not how to organize production or the distribution of articles employed as means of production (iron, silk cloth, sewing needles and etc) but rather how to organize the final distribution of the articles of consumption
Logan Robinson
>en.wikipedia.org
*Venezuela*
Ecuador, Panama, northern Peru, western Guyana and northwest Brazil.
>en.wikipedia.org
In November 1903 Panama proclaimed its independence[22] and concluded the Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty with the United States. The treaty granted rights to the United States "as if it were sovereign" in a zone roughly 16 km (10 mi) wide and 80 km (50 mi) long. In that zone, the U.S. would build a canal, then administer, fortify, and defend it "in perpetuity".
In 1914 the United States completed the existing 83-kilometre-long (52-mile) canal.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
does that help?
Nolan Gonzalez
en.wikipedia.org
wew i didn't even know that
Colton Mitchell
Part of the reason why. Venezuela has always been over reliant on oil, except the government generally allowed private companies to cut their losses when shit hit the fan, and let people starve. Try to find newspaper archives from the 70s with mentions of Venezuela and you'll get food riots and toilet paper shortages, just like now.
Venezuela's economy has numerous problems. The nationalizations resulted in further reliance on oil, which should have been used to diversify their industry. It was not, of course. Secondly, political corruption rose gigantically under Chavez' rule. At one point, I heard over a third of the cash from oil funds and taxes were being embezzled by politicians. I never confirmed that, but it would not surprise me, since South America is well known for corruption. Thirdly, Venezuela kept a capitalist economy, yet drastically overregulated (I don't mean "hey nigga pay your workers, but rather arbitrary and insane levels of regulations) the capitalists to the point where they could not expand or reinvest, leading to an even further reliance on state oil. Fourthly, there has certainly been some form of sabotage, because the USA has been openly musing about collapsing the regime since Chavez took power.
Cooper Adams
Because they aren't White
Mason Lewis
Hi Holla Forums
Jacob Watson
To be honest I know I'm not telling you anything valuable with a shitpost like that, I don't fully believe it myself. But why would you expect a shitty third world country to magically become a wealthy first world nordic country through merely adopting an ideology? Nordic countries were successful before social democracy whereas Venezuela was a shithole before and is a bigger shithole now. I mean presumably it's more difficult to become a succesful socialist country than a capitalist country, so if you are failing at capitalism why would expect to succeed at socialism?
Brayden Richardson
South America would be better off if they had kept ties wit the west.
They didn't that's why I respect them.
Blake Young
You see mr redflag the norweigans are horrible first world exploiters who steal all day from innocent venezuelans. All this stealing has the effect of making Venezuelans retarded, which in turn leads them to chose bus drivers to plan their economy. Also Aiden Gillian.
Jonathan Carter
Yes, but more specifically, they are Catholic Mestizos.
The Nordics were harsh places to live, so they didn't had huge populations pre-industrial revolution. When they industrialized, they had protestant state-churches (notice how all the Nordic nations have crosses on their flags?). That meant that as the state democratized, so did the Church. Leftist movements could vote in reforms and soften religion. The church was no longer able to encourage breeding, nor restrict women's reproductive choice, unlike American evangelical Christianity and traditional Catholicism where the "be fruitful and multiply" meme remained hard dogma. Nordic people secularized, and even those who stuck with the Church ended up with a pretty soft hippiesh religion. Birth control was widely acceptable and family planning the norm. The population stayed relatively low. More stuff per capita translated into a higher standard of living.
Venezuela is overpopulated and Catholic. The Catholic church forbids contraception. Since it based in the Vatican, not the national government, there is no simply way to slowly vote in reforms via the social-democratic process. People keep breeding beyond the carrying capacity of the land, and poverty proliferates.
Gavin Parker
Always YTs fault.
lol wonder why:) maybe its because they're Catholic :)
Wyatt Cooper
lol what the fuck
Leo Kelly
Venezuela: ~$106 billion GDP that has to be shared by 32 million people. That comes out to $3312 per capita. A fixed resource based economy with a low workforce participation rate means adding more people further divides that same total and makes everyone poorer.
Imagine if Venezuala had the population of Qatar, another oil rich country with only a slightly higher GDP. Qatar's population is only ~2.5 million.
Granted, Qatar has massive population growth. It was recently even richer on a per capita basis–probably the richest country in the world.
Zachary Carter
Pre-colonization, what is now Venezuela probably had under a million people. Imagine if Catholicism had never been introduced, and traditional birth control methods had kept the population in check. Every Venezuelan could be getting a six figure check every year in exchange for their natural resource wealth.
Jaxson Long
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Landon Miller
As recently as 1950, Venezuela only had 5 million people. If the people had rejected Rome back then and stayed at replacement level breeding, there would at least be enough resources per person to begin to develop the sort of infrastructure needed to bring people's standard of living up to developed nation levels.
As it stands, no matter who is in power, and no matter what policies they choose, there just isn't enough income to support the population living decently at all.
Occasionally neoliberal economists will suggest that industrializing nations can "leapfrog" straight to high value add service sector jobs. The closest success story is India–plenty of IT jobs, but still more people in poverty than in all of sub-Saharan Africa. If you can't keep population in check, you will be poor!!!
Hunter Foster
where the fuck are you getting that number from
gdp hasn't been that low since 2003
Henry Hall
How many people were there in the world in 1800?
In another universe where Venezuela "rejected rome" like you said it would just have been filled with even more immigrants than this Venezuela.
Jack Barnes
The problem with Venezuela is that it's full of Venezuelans.
Aiden Ramirez
I hadn't seen 2016 or 2017 (projected) numbers*, but I took the 2015 nominal GDP number from the IMF and applied a twentysomething % cut based on news stories reporting twentysomething and even thirtysomething reductions this year due to the current crisis.
*I see the 2016 projected IMF number now…
Jeremiah Cooper
Well, I assumed they rejected Spain too and remained largely indigenous. Religion and colonization went hand-in hand.
Now the problem of how a pre-industrial people, hell, some even pre-agracultural, could assert a national identity, negotiate with other states, maintain control of their resources, etc…I leave to the post-colonial/anti-colonial theorists.
I, personally, am no Third Worldist. I don't think we can have socialism so long as underdeveloped nations exist.
Maybe the CPC-PRC has the right idea? Strict limits on childbirth, industrialization, growth, and then at least you have an economy worth socializing. If you don't do that, and still have a semi-feudal largely subsistence level economy with little capital, what is the use even talking about socialism?
Luke Peterson
dumbass maduro planed everything with a 100 dollar barrel of oil
shit didn't last long
Hudson Mitchell
From a racialist standpoint, I don't know why one would expect half-white half-mesoamerican peoples to be particularly incapable.
Meosamerican civilization was fairly impressive.
Caleb Campbell
Lol that reminds me of the Nazipedia article on Chavez, they wrote good of him but noted he may not be very intelligent due to being irrelevant shited
Dylan Evans
Because unlike scandinavian countries they didn't pull their pants down and said:
Nations that want to be very corrupt and really mistreat their citizens all they got to do is cut a deal with US, give them what they want, let them fuck your culture with their fake culture.
Saudi Arabia is an absolute joke. They never had an election ever! But when Venezuela has an election, but because the result didn't went their way, it's because it's manipulated? This is why i will always laugh when retards say the media is leftist. I never saw NOBODY in the media attacking Saudi Arabia, UAE and others heaven on earths as i see all the time people attacking Iran, Cuba, DPRK and Venezuela in the media.
From Bolivia and Ecuador…two countries which never before in their entire existence people had so much quality of life improvements…nothing is said about them as well.
Luis Rogers
La manumbutonoj ĉirkaŭrigardis, ke Georgo malfermis keston kaj fosis ĉirkaŭ "Trovu ilin!" Li provis levi ilin senĉese, kaj larĝigis siajn okulojn ĉar ili ne budge "Blimey Goku! Kiom da ĉi tiuj pezoj? "Goku malsupreniris kaj elektis ilin facile." Ĉu ili ne estas tiel pezaj? "Li metis ilin kaj faris kelkajn provojn." Ĝuste kaj Georgo rigardis unu la alian, Fred diris malrapide. "Sooo … Kiom do tiuj pezoj de ĉiuj manieroj?" Goku ŝirmis "Ĉi tiuj estas miaj pli malpezaj.
Alexander Brown
Excuse me wut
Xavier Kelly
You would expect them to be incapable like every other Mestizo country actually by racialist standpoint.
Jeremiah White
punp
Luke Fisher
Maduro got in power like two years ago, if you want to blame the Bolivarian government you should blame Chavez.
All Native Americans are Asians. All Mestizos are Hapas.
Mason Wright
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Camden Jackson
Notice countries are the product of Nordic peoples.