Am I the only one annoyed by edgy bordiguist quoting Gilles Dauvé ?

Gilles Dauvé is a french ultra left "intellectual" who associated in the past with negationists and who wrote shoah revisionism himself Why is this man taken seriously in the anglophone community ?
I found one article in english (one thing is wrong in the article Bordigua didn't wrotes Auschwitz or the great alibi, it was Martin Axelrad)antigerman.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/gilles-dauve-jean-barrot-guy-dauve-la-vielle-taupe-pierre-guillaume-amadeo-bordiga-didier-daeninckx-not-bored-and-libcom/

Also this
societedelinformation.wordpress.com/tag/gilles-dauve/
and this
phdn.org/negation/bihr1997.html
Sorry it's in French but as a Baguette myself that's what i found more relevent.

Other urls found in this thread:

thecharnelhouse.org/2015/03/05/the-anti-german-ideology-towards-a-critique-of-anti-german-communism/.
phdn.org/negation/bihr1997.html
libcom.org/library/behind-balaclavas-south-east-mexico-ab-irato.
endnotes.org.uk/issues/1
youtube.com/watch?v=7jQoQFPGd0Q
mondialisme.org/IMG/pdf/increvables_5_1978-1983.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=YVuWG6sYyyw
mega.nz/#F!DJdkhYTR!gNrR2Hm7we5O0dyfwBHG0g
qz.com/734450/almost-everyone-in-buenos-aires-is-in-therapy/.
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

I don't know about his other works but I've read Eclipse and re-emergence… and it was pretty disappointing. From all the hype he gets I've expected something much better.

why is bordiga taken seriously in the anglophone community? Same reason.

autism

1: ce forum n'a pas de Bordigistes, non-seulement par-ce qu'il n'existe pas de Bordigisme, mais par-ce que, comme dans Dauvé, il n'existe qu'une appreciation pour quelques-un de ses oeuvres.

2: cette photo n'est pas de Dauvé, ni le vieux ou le jeune.

3: Dauvé n'est pas associé au négationistes. Les négationistes se sont développé des post-Situationistes/post-Debordiste, basé sur la critique de l'antifascisme de l'ultra-gauche dans la clique Vieille taupe (librairie communiste).

4: oui, c'est Axelrad, et pas Bordiga qu'a écrit Auschwitz ou le grand alibi, qui d'ailleurs n'est pas une négation de l'holocaust, mais, en l'acceptent entierrement comme fait historique, cherche a déconnecter le mythe de l'attacque contre l'Allemagne comme une attacque comme l'holocaust mais en fait cherce a prouver que l'holocaust a servi comme prétexte a posteriori pour excuser les brutalisation que les Alliés et l'Union Soviétique ont commi est celle qu'ils avaient autrement entierrement ignoré quand l'Allemagne les commit (rapellons-nous du fait que la Grande Brettagne avait refusé d'accepter des immigrants Juifs lor-ce que leurs persécutation était déja plennement connu en '39). Points bonus: Axelrad ne nie non-seulement pas l'holocaust (ces inspirées dans la Vieille taupe l'ont fait), mais il est un Juif lui-même.

5: on le prend au serieux par-ce qu'il a fait de bonnes contributions théoretiques dans la théorie communisation et quelques bonnes critiques de non-seulement l'anti-fascisme, Leninisme, etc. mais aussi de Bordiga meme (quand il l'apprecie dans certains autres quartiers)

6: si il y a une bonne raison pour faire un caca nerveux vers Dauvé, c'est plus tot dans ses flirtations proche avec la pédophilie (même si ce n'est pas un sujet non-commun chez les communistes avec Althusser, Foucault, de Beauvoir, etc. dans le meme vent).

7: grand leaule @ sources anti-German (en plus c'est un blog). Le meme genre de types (sur le meme blog, en fait!) qui font polémique encore plus contre Stalin et le Stalinisme pour de vrais fait anti-sémitique comme le complot des blouses blanches. Lisez cela, tout les concernés: thecharnelhouse.org/2015/03/05/the-anti-german-ideology-towards-a-critique-of-anti-german-communism/.

8: et puis encore un grand leaule @ Bihr, qui a aussi accusé Karl Marx lui-même d'être anti-sémite en ecrivant son "Sur la question Juive"

lmao look at this french faggot enumerating his arguments like a dork

It would be okay the critiques are interesting could just do without the insufferable package the quotes usually come with

J'ignorais ça sur Alain Bihr, cependant je trouve son article pertinent. Dauvé est tellement déterministe avec on pseudo marxisme que ça lui a toujours fait dire n'importe quoi, et il a bien cossigné le texte en défense de faurisson

What in particular did you want from it that you didn't get? The point was to rehash what Marx actually said and begin a proper Marxian analysis of modern society. He's also one of the few writers willing to defend any form of humanist Marxism while also criticizing the Situationists.

Since when is Dauve a determinist? In the debate between him and Theorie Communiste, he explicitly took a stance against their mechanistic periodization of history.

fuggin frogs get off my board

welp that's off my reading list

Non mdr je t'encule pédé zizi caca prout

What the fuck is an interpretation

tg mec xptdr leaule


Offre nous une propre critique de Dauvé et son supposé pseudo-Marxisme (qui a toujours fait éclat en France, et s'exporte sans ca publicité en Suede et en Chine, d'ailleurs) ou vas gacher le temps de quelqu'un d'autre.

Il a juste correspondu avec Faurisson. Dauvé n'a jamais dit "l'holocauste ne s'est jamais passé". Encore une fois d'ailleurs, de récents textes par Dauvé, aussi co-édité avec Riff-Raff et Kämpa Tillsammans, parlent de l'holocaust, ca rélevance, et cetera, dans un ton qui completement accepte ca realité. De plus, ces groupes ne sont pas négationistes d'un ton.


Dauvé sits between the Marxist humanists and the structuralists, actually. He just defends a lot of Marxist humanist points, n.b. Castoriadis's Socialisme ou Barbarie and the Situationists' and Lettrists' simply because he thinks they're correct in some places, while at the same time having critiques of them (see for example his critique of the Situationist International).

I'm not sure determinism is the right word but he seems to dismiss any attempt to fight fascsim because it would save democracy and it never worked before so there is no point. It's very easy when you are not threatend by right wing violence but people get hurt, and even if cannot just make an holy alliance with succdems, we have to take what we hae while radicalising the prols. In "the bleak left" he sees capital as a supernatural force whe cannot fight and who controls everything, like le* jew. I believe there is still a fight between capitalists, he seems to think as capitalism like a group of illuminati or a mercyless machine with no weakness. He also tend to dismiss every actual struggle because it isn't pure enough (rojava comes in my mind). I think we must fiht with what we have, and at least try to work with people who have the same praxis, not just fighting for ideologies.

phdn.org/negation/bihr1997.html
outre le fait que c'est alain bihr, qu'est ce qui est faux la dedans ?

He doesn't do that… Fascism must definitely be fought. What he dismisses is that fighting fascism as in fighting the fascist expression of capitalism at a given time rather than fighting all expressions of capitalism no matter fascistic or not will always end in failure because anti-fascism (as in: priority on against fascism) is always ultimately but a reaffirmation of bourgeois democracy. You need but look at every historical rallying call of uniting with every anti-fascist faction ever in its name to see that what it systematically did was first kill all proletarian momentum against capitalism, and second have the otherwise revolutionary partisans used in the meat grinder to afterwards denounce them and if not get to be spared from fascism are fully embraced by it.

And he takes this to be the logic of antifascism. Where are the brave antifascists during an Obama election? Virtually nowhere, rioting at almost invisible rates comparatively. Anti-fascism is its own ideological category, first starting as the perfect bourgeois distraction pastime for revolutionaries and now become institutional safeguarder of liberal bourgeois democracy against fascism. That is, if today we can even speak of shutting down fascists when a random Trump march is opposed.

On Rojava: he very much identifies with the Kurds, fully recognizes their historical persecution in the region, etc., but simply very much doubts that what is going on there has anything to do with class struggle, and he predicts that within the coming years it will be clear that like with many other projects the western left has been enthusiastic for, it will end up like with the Zapatistas, where class struggle was also exclusively on the label but not in composition: libcom.org/library/behind-balaclavas-south-east-mexico-ab-irato.


Qu'il cherche a dire "euh, ben okay, Dauvé n'a jamais nié l'holocauste et il s'est toujours défendu comme croyant dans son horreur, mais par-ce qu'il critique l'anti-fascisme je vais l'ignorer et utiliser une simple correspondance avec un négationiste pour faire de la poésie pour mon idéologie anti-Allemande identitaire".

Better make sure that as few people as possible can engage with your points. Wouldn't want to actually have to defend your ideas.

In "When Insurrections Die", he takes up the stance that both democracy and fascism must be fought because they're both manifestations of bourgeois state power, that we have to overcome fascism by overcoming capitalism. For example, collaboration of the CNT with the Republican state in the Spanish Civil War led to the suppression of mass proletarian revolt and solidarity in the May Days and ultimately the defeat of everything by fascism because the insurrection failed. This same logic appeared both before and after in the rise of fascism or its analogs.
He tends to dismiss those who see themselves as would-be leaders of the insurrection.

I suppose I should have worded my original response like this.

Link please? I'd be very interested in reading this.

endnotes.org.uk/issues/1

Thanks fam

Lacan himself wrote for Action Française, our local royalists, and is still praised as a great leftist figure.
Leftcoms gonna leftcom.

Are you calling Lacan a Leftcom? What are you getting at?

I've never understood why he makes you so assmad, but w/e.

some french anarchist historians now think that it didn't played a key role in the fall of the revolution. They entered the government to get weapons (it didn't worked by the way) but it didn't affect that much the anarchist movement in itself, it was just to weak against mordern fascist forces and relied on URSS to have decent weaponry. They are interviewed in this documentary somewhere after 2h00
youtube.com/watch?v=7jQoQFPGd0Q
Also, despite aI didn't read him, in one of his book Gaston Leval talks a bit about the choice to enter in the governement (according to my brother)

Lacan is only fellatiated by psychoanalysisfags who are too dumb for stem but still wanted a way to seem superior to normies.

Fuck off brainlet, theoryfags are the only posters on this board holding off the tide of autistic Cockshit fags and tankies who are such vulgar materialists that if they actually read Marx they'd drop being commies once they realized it's not all just about muh tanks and muh Command & Conquer: Red Alert.

J'aime pas des arabes.

That's the only french sentence I know.

I agree we have a connitive dissonance in France for that too, but antifscistes nowadays are almost all anticapitalists. Yes to focus on FN and choose the lesser evil just put the problem to later but that's not what the modern antifa movement do. . . And yes it's kind of a distraction but it's a way to learn how to struggle and recrut, we are not strong enough to defeat capitalism so nazis can be use as punching ball. We also have another problem: there is no gun culture and no will to learn guerrilla tactics. We will not win against a first world country with rocks and molotovs (especially because it's an anti vehicule weapon, not antipersonnal). The problem is that to fetichise a revolutionnary organisation as the big problem isn't a proper answer, a party is just people organizing.

I'm sure a lot of partisans in Russia, France or Italia were aware that they were just tools, they just didn't wanted to seat on their ass, it is your duty to fight and protect your family and friends.

On Rojava I recommend you the book of Pierre Bance "quel autre futur pour le Kurdistan".

Zapatistas do what they can, how a bunch of guerilleros with rag equipment abolsih commodity peroduction ? The guerilla movment allows people to be less crushed by the Sate apparatus, they managed to build school, hospitals. I don't understand the prols/party or guerilla dischotomy, it's the same people in the guerrila. All people don't want to engage in it by fear of death that's why all chapias are not engaged in the guerilla. But keep in mind that a guerrila can only survive if it has strong support among the population. And yes they make profit with coffee, ecotourism or whatever the fuck they need to buy what they don't have (including weapons and ammo).

Also the text "Auschiwtz ou le grand Alibi" denies the racist caracteristic of the holocaust and say that people died from hard work, not from gas chamber, and try to rationnalise it by saying the petite bourgeoisie sacrified a part of itself (namely the jews, wich is very strange because jews can also be prols) to save the rest, threathened by the greater bourgeois. I zm aware the author is a "jew" by hereditiy but he was himself atheist and it doesn't prevent from saying stupid shit. And gilles Dauvé agrees with that affirmation :
He published it in "La guerre Sociale".
Also :
page 7 and 8
mondialisme.org/IMG/pdf/increvables_5_1978-1983.pdf

Edit

It's out topic but i'm just tired of "collectifs" (commity in english I guess) with no long terms goal and petty political fight.

Anticapitalism is a mere sentiment, not revolutionary conviction or vision. IMO it's not even necessarily more than being an outspooken vegan.

Go sniff your mama's panties some more, you fart huffing charlatan.

Gaz vous-même vous nègre juif.

These attacks never get old. This is actually accepted, but it seems like you forget that the epistemology of science has changed from Freud's time, so yes, his is not a science in the present epistemology. But that does not reduce it's value to zero.

well, i don"t know man ,except France and usa i'm not sure if a lot of people stick to psychoanalysis a lot. A friend of mine who is a philosophy teacher told me it's incompatible with marxisme but i dunno i didn"t read it
I'm not the on you replied to btw

Gazez vous vous même même, nègre juif is the correct sentence, mon petit choufleur
youtube.com/watch?v=YVuWG6sYyyw

no smoking pls :c

*gazez vous vous même, nègre juif

Because it holds true, especially given that Freud was wrong about almost everything. Though I suppose you'll claim it's a conspiracy by various 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧scientists🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 to obfuscate the truth, just like stormfags do claim da joos are burying race realism.

J'aime pas les arabes is the correct way

No, he wasn't.

My god a french mutualist, are you real ?
c'est toi, Proudhon ?>>2016471

It is practiced in South America as well. I don't know what about it makes it incompatible, but you should check for yourself. In my experience they aren't.

mega.nz/#F!DJdkhYTR!gNrR2Hm7we5O0dyfwBHG0g
These are some good introductory books into Lacan, one of the most famous psychoanalysts in your country. Nothing about them I've found is incompatible. In fact, Lacan himself draws from Marx in some parts.

Why?

Well argued, modern science btfo.

You provide no argument, but pure autistic screeching, so what is there to argue against?0 I would suggest you read one of Bruce Fink's intros I've posted above, but it's your choice, my friend.

Je suis réel.Je suis la réincarnation de Proudhon !

You don't just have cognitive dissonance with that, and it follows when you say "but antifscistes nowadays are almost all anticapitalists". This is just phraseology. It's meaningless. Everyone can call themselves whatever but what matters is what they actually do when they pretend themselves revolutionary.

No, that is exactly what antifa do. That, and disciplining the centrist or liberal left parties when they aren't keeping on their progressive promises enough. You also speak of recruiting but they recruit nothing at all. Let's ignore for a moment that antifascism is not a formal organization but an informal way of affiliating oneself under an ideology (anyone can hoist its banner and bash some "fash"), and see that at the basis "anti-capitalism" for antifa means little more than violently affirming progressivist capitalism while breaking stuff every once in a while and opposing some skinheads in the street, and you'll see that all it recruits and breeds is more types like that.

Who the heck does that? Again, seriously, show me who does that. The point is precisely that antifa is activism but not even a useful one. We can safely say that no activism ever will be revolutionary, but in the case of antifa it is exclusively either a waste of time or actually impeding useful activism. For example, almost a week ago in Dallas there was an altercation between antifa and some BLM folks. On the rare occasion BLM was here merely protesting police violence peacefully, and some goons thought it would be smart to don their black clothes and stand under their banner with violence. It was not just an opportunistic latching on to a useful struggle that wasn't theirs, but antifa effecively discredited the whole thing, and a fight errupted between BLM and the antifas.

Again you are taking a rejection of antifascist frontism to mean a rejection of all struggles against capitalism, including its fascist version. Show me one instance where anti-antifascism resulted in not confronting fascism at all please.

I've read that. I've read most texts trying to pretend Rojava has more of a class politics than it shows including the most famous ones by Graeber, but nobody can confirm their claims, and from what we can actually see ourselves they are just reiterating a lot of the claims with little more. Again let's just wait to see who is right on this question after the civil war settles and hopefully the Rojava factions are still around to see what they actually end up doing and becoming.

Lol it has nothing to do with "what can they and can they not do?". I ask whether the claims of it being any more than I implied they aren't are true. It is not revolutionary in the slightest. Admirable, yes, but the fetishization of Chiapas is insane, just there to reprimand some relevance where there is none.

The rest I already addressed and has no connotation that denies the holocaust, it simply makes claims about what the holocaust really meant and for what ends it was used by the perpetrators and its liberators. And when you say "I zm aware the author is a "jew" by hereditiy but he was himself atheist and it doesn't prevent from saying stupid shit" that's the exact same shit the anti-German blog you linked and Bihr would invoke against Marx and his Jewish heritage in context of Marx's text on the Jewish question.

smoking's bad tbqh

Let me teach you a new one: "je me fait lourdement chier la bite".


Hey, c'est pas beau tout ça…

Accorded to my friend it's irrationnal and unprovable scientificly so incompatible with dialectic. But thanks i will read it

*according

It's really popular in South America as the other guy said, especially Argentine: qz.com/734450/almost-everyone-in-buenos-aires-is-in-therapy/. And the popular Zizek likely first came into contact with the very popular and established Lacanian psychoanalytic school in Slovenia. Lacan also notably has some popularity in urban Tokyo, Japan.

I'm not the on you replied to btw
He should read a few pages of "Badiou, Žižek, and Political Transformations - The Cadence of Change" then (pages 119 to 124) because Lacanian psychoanalysis is very materialist and dialectical theoretically.


Psychoanalysis does not pretend itself to be a science. That was in fact a central point to psychoanalysis already in Freud.

Ça veux dire quoi, ça? Tu parles vraiment trop de la merde dans des entroits ou t'y comprends a rien.

T'es basé mon ami :)

Disregarded whatever you said OP.

Merci.