Activist takes a sledgehammer to a Christopher Columbus monument in Baltimore

citypaper.com/blogs/the-news-hole/bcpnews-activist-takes-sledgehammer-to-christopher-columbus-monument-in-northeast-baltimore-20170821-htmlstory.html

While he mostly talks about race, slavery and genocide, the guy that did this actually mentioned capitalism a lot.
youtu.be/iFSW0id36FA

The tears of the classcucks and fascists are wonderful. I'm so happy to be living in this timeline.

Other urls found in this thread:

marxistsfr.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/30a.htm
maristpoll.marist.edu/nprpbs-newshourmarist-poll-results-on-charlottesville/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servile_Wars
libcom.org/library/were-we-wrong-murray-bookchin
cnn.com/2017/08/21/entertainment/missy-elliott-confederate-statue/index.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Why is there a monument to Columbus in Baltimore?

This. Contrarians who say this is a bad thing can fuck off, Columbus was a slave owning cunt who should be reviled like all the other mass murderers in history.

Because he "discovered" America or some shit.

that's great, fuck columbus.

READ BARTOLOME DE LAS CASAS

damn. Vandalizing a historically significant monument is fucking retarded, especially if some anarkiddie made the decision to destroy it unilaterally.

This is fucking gay.

While I'm generally against the majority of the destruction being carried out by American liberals against various statues and monuments.

I am quite happy to see a monument to this bastard get defaced.
The man was literally guilty of genocide and should be spoken off in the same manner one might speak of Hitler.
Fuck Columbus.


That has long since been discredited.
Not only did the Norse discover and attempt to settle the Americas centuries before.
But even while Columbus was still attempting to cross the Atlantic, Norman fisherman had already been fishing off of the Grand Banks for generations.

Columbus was just a genocidal retard that was out to make a profit.

Smashies are useful idiots. Without a proper org they devolve into fucking morons. How can we help organize these kids? There are thousands of statues that glorify slavery in America after all.

It's not like an ancient ruin. There's nothing to be leaned from it. Old propaganda is still propaganda.

you know about that other historically significant monument? The great temple of Tenochtitlan?

ye niqqa.

Read Engels:
marxistsfr.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/30a.htm

The colonization of the Americas was objectively progressive from a world-historical standpoint.

...

This is correct but let's try not to antagonize native peoples by bringing it up ok?

I have and it's not moralism to point out that genocide is bad.

How about you suck my cock dude

Fuck Columbus

Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica was a pretty fucked up society, (slavery, human sacrifice, etc). The destruction of their monuments by Europeans pains me all the same.
also
that blood is on the hands of Cortez, not coloumbus


1792 is pretty fucking old as far as ameriga is concerned

I'm glad its gone.

added to my filter m8

I'm glad you're gone.

Is it happening?

people are still too content in the west for there to be any radical change
Average Joe Prole won't get woke as long as he has a job and can put bread on the table.

yes I'm sure everybody will agree with the side the smashie claims to represent now :^)

Learn proper sentence and paragraph structure, your posts are painful to read.

He was right, though.

Only reactionaries like Columbus.

Nothing Howard said was wrong.

normalfags are retarded, but they aren't retarded enough to defend christopher columbus. maybe the most extreme of reactionaries would. I'm sure most people who read this are glad. We should be ashamed of Columbus just as Germans are ashamed of Hitler.

no

If he's just a dead guy who gives a shit

the funny thing is Columbus never even set foot in the US but Americans idolize him anyway

History is a good spook which people often derive pleasure from. Old monuments should not be torn down, even if they depict Julius Cesar or Genghis Khan.

History isn't contained in American tributary monuments.

especially not Julius Caesar or Genghis Khan

Ya, I'm sure its not moralism to be outraged about about some terrible some guy more then 500 years ago did, centuries before the invention of human rights doctrines, because of some spooky word that was coined slightly over 80 years ago :^)

I'm sure you lie awake at night thinking of all the innocent victims of genocide killed centuries ago by muslims, mongols, and Chinese colonialists respectively. The mongols killed many more people then the Spanish (and largely without the aid of disease) and no one is calling for Mongolians or other cultures to destroy their monuments or artifacts because of some spooky sense of reparative justice for shit that happened centuries ago.

Genghis Khan was a hero of the proletariat how dare you

take your faggy IDpol shit elsewhere

Destroy more monuments.

The attitude of the smashies in this thread are precisely why interesting structures like castles get ruined. You all suck.

Burn all the records.

Fuck those castles too

Everything he says is painful to read and most of it is usually also retarded. Trust the nameniggers to stick together though I guess.


please stop playing to Holla Forums and COINTEL stereotypes

Yes, it is. It's imposing a contemporary moral judgment ("genocide") on a.long dead historical figure who wouldn't have even understood the charge. You could easily call Genghis Khan a perpetrator of genocide (and I stress *easily*), but it's also an insipid moral judgment and one that misunderstands historical perspective and the development of ethics as historical and not an absolute.

Filter annoying tripfags

/thread
I eagerly await that one black flag poster to try and defend moralism

no ones fucking talking about reparative justice here, the Columbus statue should go down because Columbus as a person should not be admired.

*redditspacing annoying tranny tripfags.

Tru

the people who broke the monument? the people talking about it on this thread? historians?

don't reply to him

I was talking about you, since your justification was it's just old history. If it's just old history, who cares. There are still records about it.

A giant gaudy monument to Christopher Columbus deserves to be smashed. That's my opinion.


ha ha

It is like a vision of Jannah. Thank you, brothers.

Does anyone else happen to think it's sort of like a Maoist cultural revolution done before the actual revolution going on?

If you didn't know how to filter people before, you're probably new.

If that's the standard, then nearly all statues of figures hundreds of years ago should be destroyed because almost none of them were worthy of modern moral admiration.


Most (possibly all?) of the smashing came after the Cultural Revolution had already started. I think destroying statues betrays a certain impotence: you can destroy the statue which you believe to represent a racist past, but you can't do anything about racism now beyond attacking mere symbols.

Taken down, sure, but whether we like it or not it's history and should be preserved in some format. Smashing it is just a cargo cult going through the motions of a victory that never happened over an enemy that in this case has been dead a long time and is practically never used to represent the current oppressive regime. Auction it to collectors or something, not like burger gov't is doing to hot with their budget.

Not pushing for one answer or another, but should we smash up the Spirit of St. Lois because Lindberg shilled for the Nazis?

this but unironically.

there is literally nothing preventing you from destroying the statue. Just because its history doesn't mean you have to preserve it.

KHAN MUST FALL, HES A RACIST, SLAVEOWNING, GENOCIDAL RAPIST PIECE OF SHIT AND HES NOT TO BE ADMIRED!!!! FUCK YOU IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOUR SHIT TOO

hmmm tell me again that there's not a sense of reparative justice involved in the differing treatment of the two figures? Who does destroying such a statue serve beyond some restoration of justice to some long-dead ancestors way back?

If you think that we should get rid of such a statue because it "sets a bad example" I think you're either an idiot and/or you think everyone else is an idiot. You can recognize that what people did in the past is wrong without going full mautist and smashing everything in retarded misdirected anger.

No one assumes that just because this statue exists in Mongolia that mongols are going to ride down into China and start raping everyone. Its only through the disappearing present that is presented to us by post-colonialist theory that we teach ourselves to believe that the existence of this old monument will cause cops to murder people today and is thus poses a threat to society.

Almost all historically significant people from before the 19th century have questionable human rights track records. Columbus lived in the fucking 15th century. It was a bloody time. It is short sighted to deprive future generations of this history by destroying it.

The confederate statues in the south are another story, most of them were erected in the 1930s. Fuckem. This Columbus statues is another story, because it was erected in 1792. That's very old for Burgerland.

I recommend adding Afroplasm and the technocracy dork too

Thanks guys! This is fucking excellent for the right wing. Smashing up that old of a monument is an excellent way to turn the plebian masses against the left.

They truly are the unholy trinity, huh?

There aren't any Genghis Khan statues in America you dumb nigger.
never said anything about bad examples.
Then why are you mentioning it?
No one, not even the people who smashed the statue are arguing that the statue is a threat or that it inspires violence.
also
no one's gonna fuckin forget Columbus existed because some statue got knocked over.

Sorry to inject, but I need some Rule 34 on this. Polite sage.

There's nothing to gain from tearing it down. If a group trashed a bank and handed out the money in it, that would win some people over. Wow the monument to some dead guy is smashed, has racism ended? Income equality? Police brutality? The Dakota pipeline? Anything? Bueller? Shit like this only pisses normalfags off, but wingnuts – including many on this thread – are so pathetically desperate for anything they can call a victory that they call pointless trolling like this a victory, whether the masses understand the obtuse point they're trying to make or not. Call me when they do something other than shitpost IRL and piss away political capital on idiotic bullshit.

And you call yourselves communists.

Actually, it's really obvious you're not communists, just Holla Forums playing pretend, but still.

from what I remember, the viet cong guy is the most annoying of those three by far
there was also a memorably annoying anfem trip several months back, but they must have been banned or something

"Capitalism commodifies and destroys culture" the smashy says, as he readies his sledgehammer for another strike at the 200 year old monument.

The Bolsheviks also preserved statuary and monuments with historical value. But they must've been Nazis playing pretend.

We've wound back a lot of RW propaganda over the last week but it's like climate change, i.e everyone knows we should do something but there's inertia.

The degree to which a statue or monument should be smashed increases proportionally to the degree to which it would piss off right-wingers.

That was one of their flaws.

Remember that the USSR fell in the end.

why do so many people itt feel the need to stan for Columbus? It's just a statue.

Why don't you go back to Holla Forums and stop false-flagging?

Explain why its okay to smash a monument to Columbus from 1792 but its okay for the Mongolians to build a 5 million dollar 130-foot stainless steel monument to their genocidal hero in 2008?

no one's gonna fuckin forget Columbus existed because some statue got knocked over.
What purpose did destroying it serve? What was gained then?

I suspect you don't even know besides

This tbh. The pillar itself had gained a history of its own. The pillar is a show of how people back in the 1700s viewed Columbus and how they did not view slavery or the savagery of the man himself as wrong. You can form a critique around the topic, a critique that is actually very popular in the US right now. That being that Columbus was a sack of shit and we should not celibate him. Breaking this pillar has little if nothing to do with bolstering that critique. While the statues that were put up in the 30s, 40s, and 50s, of confederate generals/causes do not have that critique attached to them. They are supported whether overtly or subtly as a celebration of a slave state and the institution of slavery. People widely wave the rebel flag and are not willing to look into their past while addressing slavery.

But just for good measure I want to point out that this discussion in itself is dumb. Who cares about statues, pillars, or feelings? This is (when you boil it down) liberal bullshit. It doesn't do anything to further leftist ideas or causes.

stop talking about Genghis Khan, nobody is arguing that's ok.

Should Italy destroy 2 millennia old year old statues of Caligula in Rome?
Oh that's right, they can't, because dumb fucking pro-smashies already did that 1900 years ago.
Very few people are vindicated by history. Doesn't mean we should smash all the shit that memorializes them.

that's a pretty bad false equivalence. Ancient artifacts are the only way we can learn about ancient civilization, the Columbus statue was built hundreds of years after the man died and tells us nothing about his time period. is kind of right in saying that it tells us about how people in 1792 viewed Columbus but there are already other documents that can do that.

not wanting to wait until after the revolution and after public opinion is more firmly on their side is retarded
no that's just you, your unfounded smugfaggotry is a dead giveaway.


why do people here want to destroy it? it's just a statue


Fucking this.

Similar justifications have probably been thought by various types of iconoclasts throughout the millennia. In hindsight, these movements always end up looking kind of stupid because they're attacking rocks instead of the problems those rocks represent for them.

no

They also didn't hesitate to destroy churches and other symbols that reactionaries loved.

was that before or after the revolution succeeded?

diverting the discussion into Genghis Khan when no one is trying to justify what Genghis Khan did or defend statues of him is not an argument.

I could be wrong, but don't think this Columbus monument was particularly beloved by reactionaries (at least before it was smashed).

Can you even tell me why these statues and monuments have any value except as propaganda?

It doesn't offend me that they made a monument to him, he was historically significant both to world history and mongolian history; the same is true of Columbus.

Like I said, do you have any actual argument for breaking it is good besides that it makes magafags and normies mad? Or does it boil down to the whole pearl-clutching discourse of "dude that's not okay…"

The smashies ITT are already in damage control mode with the whole "We're not assblasted moralists because we destroyed an inanimate object because it represents things that hurt our feels, you're an assblasted moralist because you critique us for destroying it!" line of argument.

Really? There are plenty of literary sources you can consult to understand that period, you don't need a statue to tell you that Caligula was a tyrant that made his people erect statues that glorified him.

And truth be told, we know a lot less about what happened in the whole of 1792 then what happened on one day in 1942 when you compare the sheer volume of sources. America is a very young country there isn't even that many artifacts around 230 or so years old whereas in Europe something that old probably wouldn't arouse that much interest.

Any shred of history should be preserved if you do not want the same path to be tread, emotional extremists like you can't understand that keeping a very precise and detailed account and every piece of evidence of your adversaries history alive is the best way to make sure it never rises again.

Symbolic propaganda.

They're destroyed for the same reason that the statue of George III was destroyed.

Statues and monuments aren't about history, they all basically serve as propaganda.

RIP Akhenaten

yeah, that's probably the best explanation.
the winners of history get to write the books, it's sort of an expression of power of one ideology over another. completely symbolic.

incoming crypto Nazi sympathizer tears!

So you're saying they are being destroyed for the same reason they were built?

What I think doesn't matter because the statue's already gone. But if you want an argument and both pointed out that the statue itself was a form of propaganda. That's good enough reason to get rid of it.
>Really? There are plenty of literary sources you can consult to understand that period, you don't need a statue to tell you that Caligula was a tyrant that made his people erect statues that glorified him.
Things like statues, vases, and coins are used as a way to study ancient civilizations. You can learn a lot about ancient Rome from studying the material that was used to build a statue, from how it was carved, how well it was preserved and how old it is. You don't need a statue that was built in 1792 to study what was going on in 1492.

no


Read more carefully. I know you don't give a rat's ass about preserving them. You've established that, failed to shock anybody and can stfu about it now. What I'm telling you is that a lot of proles don't share your opinion, that shit like this will actively drive away more proles than it attracts, and that both revolution and reform need a lot of proles to enact change.

user was diverting the discussion by trying to get people who wanted to smash the Columbus statue to defend the Genghis Khan statue, which no one was going to.

You are aware that old propaganda does have historical and sometimes artistic value, aren't you? Caesar's books about his wars were also propaganda, but they have historical value, too. Would you like to burn his books because they were written entirely for propaganda, or does it have value outside of propaganda?

Statues and monuments are not, and have never been about preserving history.

The American revolutionaries didn't leave the statue of George III up because of "history" and because it would serve as some kind of "reminder", they tore the fucker down and melted it. The bourgeoisie didn't give a shit about the "historical significance" of feudalist monuments, and we shouldn't care about their monuments.

maristpoll.marist.edu/nprpbs-newshourmarist-poll-results-on-charlottesville/
We've talked about this before, a majority of Americans were already uneasy about removing confederate monuments but mostly pushed the Trump idea that it would lead to other monument removal as unbased. Then this shit happens right after and I'm back to square one with my mechanic co-workers on finding a somewhat dubious justification for what is happening.

That only works when people are on the same page as you on what symbolizes what. This thread strongly indicates that even people with similar political alignments have a lot of differing opinions of what the statue symbolizes. Almost like art can be pretty subjective, and like things can change meaning over time.

Most proves don't want communist revolution either.

The thing is that momentum is on our side and the movement to remove Confederate statues is evolving organically into a movement to destroy all the nasty symbols of the bourgeois order, and we should throw our full support behind this development.

The destruction of the native mode of product was a good thing. The elimination of the native people not so much. Marx was rather ambivalent about this sort of thing though.

This thread is full of Holla Forumsyps.

What we have is an organic movement expressing its rage at the powers that be by attacking the symbols of their authority.

One other problem I see is that, like in this post, no one is drawing a difference between a polity deciding on removing a statue and just some guy waking up and deciding "oh, let's smash a hole in this thing I don't like." The former could be legitimately part of a revolution if decided upon by a community of equals, but the latter is just some individual subjectively deciding for his community what this statue means. It's just individualist action, not revolutionary action.

the guy who did it in the video OP posted talks about capitalism and clearly frames it as revolutionary symbolism.

Hmmm

What, you figure the revolutionaries asked George III's permission to pull his statue down?

It was done spontaneously and illegally by a group of vigilantes calling themselves the "Sons of Freedom"

You see all the people who spontaneously gathered to pull down the confederate statue in Durham?

also the article states that Baltimore has a history of trying to remove Columbus day and replace it with an indigenous peoples day. this action has some popular support behind it.

It's already failed. This was a gift to Trump and the right-wing and a complete validation of the narratives of the Alt-Right. If these people didn't exist then Trump would have to invent them in the same manner that Trujillo himself invented a fake communist party in order to claim his opponents were all communists to convince Daddy America to keeping giving him tendies money.

But the statue might be of use in learning about what people in colonial america were thinking and doing in 1792. That has already been established.

Yeah that's organic. Attacking statues of Columbus at this point is pure liberal idpol opportunism. They do this kind of thing every year on "columbus day." Even Buzzfeed gets in on it. It's stupid and pointless. The campaign against the Confederate statues is alive and thriving. Bringing this bullshit into it will only damage the momentum.

Stop using buzzwords to try sell me nonfunctional crap. This does not help any lefty cause in burgerland or anybody else, it just pisses off moderates. This isn't vanguardism, it's somebody playing with themselves and calling it that. If you're on the vanguard that means you're leading people. This doesn't make me want to follow whoever did it into water, much less charge a machine gun nest or storm a building, and given how there's been no glorious uprising because somebody smashed up one or more old statues, I think most people feel the same.
Yes let's address the most superficial bullshit in the system that has fuckall to do with the material conditions people face. Because that isn't business as usual, and not the same tired-ass distraction from real issues that mainstream politicians use all the fucking time.

It doesn't matter. It's just one guy doing it. You can't make a revolution by yourself. As it was executed, it's subjective, individualistic action and not democratic or revolutionary.


As part of a revolution against feudalism, there's no problem. And why would a feudal lord be deciding anything when it's a "community of equals" deciding upon its presence or removal?

Dude, literally like 3/4 of all monuments and comissioned artwork is propaganda on some level.

You guys argued that removing the confederate statues was ok because they were erected in the 60s so they're not that old or significant, then defend removing this one because its propoganda even though its ancient by American standards, fuck how old it is.

Get a job

Just because some people wanted Columbus day replaced it doesn't necessarily follow they wanted a 200 year old relic destroyed.

...

Shut the fuck up, libtard.

i'm just saying its not completely an isolated one person action.

No, I'm just assuming your one of the same smashies who were arguing last thread

Oh right I forgot Chris Columbus taxing me up the ass for my tea yesterday and ignoring my petitions and not letting me expand west at the expense of the natives fuck that guy lol


You seem to be having trouble with plurals. One person isn't a movement and you aren't the entire thread.

You have to start somewhere.

Yes, it would be better to storm the local government building and take shit over, but until you get to that point, all you have is propaganda. Make no mistake, until we get to the point of a revolution, that's all we're doing, propaganda.

Start somewhere other than shooting a bigass hole in your foot then.
also
no

a politically innocuous display of abject impotence.

nobody who looks at this thinks Wow, what a powerful symbolic statement from the left! except literal children absorbed in pseudo-political subcultures that are little more than hobby clubs (if that). people see acts like this as either petty vandalism by kids with too much time on their hands, or the cultural equivalent of stamping your feet and holding your breath until you turn blue.

not a burger and don't really care about your monuments, but this kind of thing has no positive political impact and invites comparisons to taliban or ISIS blowing up old shit in syria or afghanistan (which the western left was predictably up in arms over at the time, of course)

All this. You put it better than I can.

This is the most nonsensicle bullshit I've ever heard as a justification. "evolving organically into a movement to destroy all the nasty symbols of the bourgeois order"? What even is this to you? Lets go through this then:

Suck my Russian dick, you chink.

just like to point out that none of the people saying that the statue needed to stay up have explained why they had to build a columbus statue in the first placed

Fuck off and take your "cultural revolution" bullshit with you

It was built more than 200 years ago. All the natives are dead and forgotten. He had no part in the creation of America. Attacking it legitimizes the Trump's bullshit claim about losing "our history."

Can one person explain how the destruction of the statue helps us? Because all I see is it being used as propaganda for Nazis.

It made the smashie feel cool for a couple of minutes before he realized that he was going to be spending the night in a jail cell.

Of course the proles care more about this stuff than the bourgeoisie do, that's the whole point. The bourgeoisie don't consume their own propaganda.

And that's what this is, a propaganda war, trying to get people to reconsider to symbols of the old regime and consequently the old regime itself.

Though, most proles weren't angered by this, just a handful of reactionaries.

But on a meta level, how does this help our movement? All I see is it being used by racists and trump supporters as a propaganda point for them.

...

dude in the video didn't look like he cared about going to jail.

Why do people build statues period. Maybe they had a reason, maybe we should probably keep it around to analyze why. Maybe its because the people at the time wanted to engage in the creative pursuit known as labor, who knows? They built a statue dedicated to Columbus, the spainards build statues dedicated to the conquistadors, the Venetians probably built one dedicated to Marco Polo. What does that have to do with anything here?

Why would you want to give them more ammunition? Why? Don't be a smarmy bitch, why do you want to give them any material to work with at all? Confederate statues are inherently racist, black people don't like them, but Columbus? No significant group is actually offended by Columbus monuments, whites however view it as part of their history.

I understand everything now

The eternal liberal
Columbus Dindu Nuffin

What?

Gramsci was an important political theorist, have your read the Prison Notebooks?

You need to stop harping on points nobody's bringing up so you can shoehorn in buzzwords that you think look cool. Tonedeaf, counterproductive bullshit like this isn't going to win any hearts or minds over, it will push people farther away. You can jack off to your organic whole-weat revolution all you like, but that revolution won't happen without popular support that the statue-smashing moron lost a lot of by smashing that statue.

no significant group except the growing number of anti-racist liberal activists who could easily be radicalized to socialism if only you would stop autistically defending a dead guy whose statue got knocked over.

Your praxis is shit

kek, this is what smashies actually believe

Liberals are far more likely to become fascists honestly. Also we don't need more activists. We need more organizers (i.e. people who know how to mobilize the working class rather than just grandstand and accept money from millionaires.)

Over weight or under weight?

So hard core! So dedicated to the cause!

It doesn't matter how edgy you act, you still have to take the trash out for mom. Faggot.

...

I bet you think vandalizing political yard signs is a revolutionary act

The people that got upset by the smashing on the monument wouldn't have supported us anyway.

You're an idiot.

BUT THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE OPPOSED US, YOU DUMB FUCK.

It isn't all about making friends, some of it is about not making enemies.

...

Columbus Dindu Nuffin

mainly after, although it's never a bad time to get started

they definitely do like Columbus, he's seen as a classic western conqueror

How about Native Americans, Holla Forums? I know blacks and hispanics aren't fond of them either, not to mention, as the other poster did, anti-racist liberals.

Liberals aren't proles.

Damn, even the left is divided over these statues. So long solidarity! Hello statue sectarianism!

The Native Americans were genocided, they no longer exist.

this tbqh
stop excusing fascists.

No, these people always opposed us.

You're talking about right-wingers and nationalists. These people are a lost cause.

Nationalists are not born nationalists. Fuck, do you really not understand that if we create enemies, that gives soldiers to the other side?

t.Nazi sympathizer

Gramsci is one of the few Marxist thinkers who I can safely say (unintentionally) injected the idea of the "propoganda war" and culture into mainstream Marxism and fucked with peoples understanding of economic determinism. At least Adorno and others like him critqued culture from an outside perspective and how capitalism affected it, rather then implement it in any way to Marxism.

Then who are these guys?

Columbus. never. came. to. North. America.

did you reply to the wrong post? I'm talking about the guy who knocked over the statue, who was already talking about how capitalism is bad.

...

But he marks the beginning of the European invasion of the Americas, which is certainly what he symbolizes for Native Americans (as well as the beginning of the colonial slave trade for blacks)

His voyage led to other people coming to North America which caused the genocide of North American natives.

Ethnonationalist LARPers who are whiter than Holla Forums and who never present any coherent demands other than "stay off muh land." And yes I know there is a radical sort of leftist strain but it is still firmly rooted in idpol.

A grab bag of hispanics and other races. They're essentially larpers.

you're bad at strawmanning and should stop

people aren't a hivemind

eat shit lol

...

when tankies suddenly decide that ethnic minorities who were victims of American imperialism shouldn't be supported.

He killed a rape drug a bunch of people, that enough for me to tear down his statue

Good!

That's the thing, though. They aren't the people who faced genocide. Those people are already long dead. You just believe there's a continuity between them because you're spooked.

*He killed and raped

They aren't actual natives. I don't know what part of that you don't understand. Just look at the picture, I spot 5 whites in the first couple rows, a few Mexicans, and a bunch of who knows what. Do a DNA test on them and they'll probably end up being whiter than Holla Forums

ftfy

what did he mean by this?

...

The land they took isn't.
Yet here you are crying about a statue for a long dead man that didn't even discover anything,

maristpoll.marist.edu/nprpbs-newshourmarist-poll-results-on-charlottesville/
I guess just fuck a majority of people on every party line, even unsure independents then. Our tiny "organic" force will lead the charge and, you know, they'll just catch up.

Way to not understand Gramsci. His argument is that the ruling class of any society maintain their domjnance through cultural values and norms. As much as we talk about all the subtle Porky propaganda in movies, games and shit, and poke fun at "common wisdom" classcuckery, I'm surprised this is a controversial opinion.

What the fuck am I reading

So symbolic justice against somebody who's been dead a few hundred years is more important than changing material conditions for the living in any meaningful way?

We don;t care about the statue, the statue doesn't matter, the point is what is the effect of the statue being destroyed.

They aren't Natives, none of them are.

I'll take numbers pulled from my ass for $300 Alex

Ethnic identity a spook, and the idea that they are magically the "same people" who did suffer genocide definitely is.


I just think it's stupid strategically, stupid tactically, and stupid to execute only as an individual. The left used to be about collective action, but these days anything will do, I guess, no matter how boneheaded.

...

I wonder how those people would respond to something like "I should be thankful to my boss for my job" or "My employer has my best interest at heart"

ethnic identity is a spook but being forced to live on a native reserve where there is no clean water and everyone around you is a poor suicidal alcoholic is not.

...

...

The second is impossible under current material conditions. All we can do is spread propaganda.

Was that guy native or just a liberal idpoler?

...

Are you an idiot? They're not forced to live there, they can leave at any time.


What?

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, if Native identity matters, then so does WHite identity. In reality, they are both spooks, stop being spooked.

But removing the cultural values and norms doesn't actually do shit to the base, the old values are supplanted by the new ones coming in with the revolutionary feeling and then capital continues on its way. Capitalism takes in all the "values" of the anti-capitalist movement into its own and then regurgates them in the form of unauthentic facades to replace the ones people dislike under the guize of anti-capitalism. Read Adorno.

The Natives are all dead.

Proofs?

...

Where's the proofs, Billy?

...

Meant for

Being poor, and not being legally allowed to leave are not the same thing, you massive faggot. At least they have land.

Not him but there are very few pure or even half natives left in the states. Most are a fourth or sixteenth at best. Some of their leaders look straight up white too.

The sort of people who think a Columbus statue getting smashed is an affront to white identity are not our comrades.

...

people who are poor usually aren't capable of moving whereever they want to go
And the US government is free to violate their supposed land rights whenever they feel like it. Look at the pipeline issue.

That isn't, but you've changed the subject. I was only talking about them not being the same people as those who suffered genocide. I didn't say they weren't suffering right now (from other things rather than genocide).

So has bringing about communism become just something individuals acting alone are supposed to be create rather than the proletariat? I didn't realize collective action had become "snowflake praxis."

You're spooked if you believe in the continuity of ethic identity throughout time, white or otherwise.

Is everyone that disagrees with you a reactionary sympathiser now? Do I have to not do something because a reactionary might like it?

Why won't 70s idpol "leftism" fucking die?

Wow the autist doesn't understand hyperbole, what a shock. Also way to distract from my point that you're full of emotionally-manipulitive disingenuous bullshit for saying any of the individuals alive today faced genocide when they didn't.


Yes this will certainly attract a lot of people, especially those interested in improving everybody's lot instead of going through another round of porky's divide-and-rule.

the issues they're facing now are a direct result of their ancestors being victims of a genocide.

I'm aware, which is why we shouldn't stop at smashing statues. But, as propaganda, it's a good starting point for radicalization. The point should be to use that to push the anti-capitalist narrative and build on a greater communist movement, rather than let the whole thing remain at the level of symbolic idpol.

it is a mystery

...

Many of their ancestors also helped commit the very same genocide (through the spread of disease, war, land theft, and outright murder), so you can also say that the issues they're facing now are the direct result of their perpetrating genocide upon the Native Americans who once lived.

Yes, and like I've said repeatedly and like you're going to ignore me saying again, this is not the kind of propaganda that should be spread. It's counterproductive.

You don't get it, Natives are all dead, and if any do exist there aren't enough to be significant or useful, whites however are being turned into Nazis like crazy. Use your head, fucko.

What makes you think its counter-productive, especially in comparisons to other forms of protest and agitation?

Proofs, Billy. Where are the proofs?

It's a 200 year old statue to a man who is part of the American mythos and is loved by Italians. Lots of Italians are working class. Destroying it makes ourside look like a bunch of idiots.

It's funny because the American Indian movement was destroyed by alphabet soup agencies because they advocated for stuff exactly like what the statue guy did.

There was a survey done that said 9% of Americans don't think there is anything wrong with Neo-Nazis. 9% is a huge amount.

But I think what people are saying is that you can't build a fucking movement off this because the launching pad has nothing to do with capital to begin with because while you may like to think differently, it has nothing to do with capitalism. The bourgeosie are more then happy, when it comes down to it, to say "Yeah, sure, lets smash(tm) some statues guys, in with the new!" if it mean deflating a revolution and turning a market. Take a lesson from the punks, this doesn't work.

wew /thread

this

There are no Italians left, they're just white Americans with an accent.

...

In the east coast Italian-American identity is still fairly prevalent.

You're not clever, and you clearly don't get my very simple point. There are lots of working class men proud of their Italian ancestry, these are valuable people, there is no significant amount of Natives existing, and the ones who do exist are drunk losers who can't, and wont, help us.

The faggot has never been outside his basement. Go to New Jersey and tell me there aren't Italians, fucking idiot punks, I swear.

...

There are no Italians. Italians are from Italy, those immigrants are long dead.

Italian Americans love Columbus, it doesn't matter if you don't like that fact. Destroying the statue was a terrible idea.


You really don't understand how these things work, do you?

Race is a spook, I don't care that some spooked Italians love a genocidal slaver.

What is American nationality? What is American culture? Why do people in USA always make sure everybody know where did their ancestors came instead of caring about their country? Is it because it virtually has never developped a culture of it's own?

Wew. The level of loops of logic you guys must have to go through to think that's even remotely consistent.

Yes, alphabet soup destroyed them for that, and not because they wanted land, money or political independence. A fucking statue is what keeps Porky up all night worrying, and now that it's gone every bad thing done by the person it's of is gone now too because it's some kind of horcrux or something.


The fact that protests are sometimes about actual immediate material issues and not some racial shitflinging?

The Columbus statue was my property anyway. It's destruction pealed me.

*pleased me

dumbass, Italian-Americans have a cultural identity of their own, the fact that their identity is made up bullshit doesn't change the fact that they believe it to be true. I was one of the people arguing against the racist tankie who didn't think natives were real btw, don't lump me in with him.

The American Indian movement was destroyed because they wanted total decolonization, which would have included tearing down all statues and is exactly what the guy who smashed this statue said he supported in the video.

Fucking opportunist smashies.

Just Holla Forums being Holla Forums

Fuck off with this undialectical garbage.

I never said it was a good thing, just relaying what they believed in

The difference is that the Mongol empire doesn't exist anymore. These statues represent a white supremacist empire that exists now, and one means of attacking that empire is attacking its symbols. Obviously is not sufficient by itself, but nobody besides liberals think that anyway.

Gonna need a source, is it saying 9% are thumbs up for neo-nazis or 9% have no problem with them existing of they don't hurt anyone? Because you can conflate a lot with the second

What?

wow did my words really hurt you that much? This board may not be the place for you then.
so he's an anthropomorphic personification and not a human?
It does. It's been dividing them since Julius Caesar first coined that term and tactic. You can refuse consensus on it all you like just like you can refuse to concede that the sky is blue. Your refusals change no facts.

So why are industrial/service workers supposed to be in solidarity with natives who want no part in the actual revolution again?

citation severely needed

We've already shown that, yes, statistically it divides proles. Every time its mentioned though the response is "We don't need them anyway". Despite the stated intention of what your doing is to garner more people and radicalize. Which your not doing. Because it divides proles. Which you state you don't need anyway…

Dude, you're fucking retarded. People who spew out shit like this are all controlled opposition whos only goal is to permanently delegitimize any potential socialist movement in the us.

that's like 90% of "leftists" in the US tbh.

Visit Oklahoma

nah they're just the most vocal

You know this how? I've always understood Columbus and Columbus Day as white supremacy. It's litterally celebrating the first "White Guy" to discover America.
Where are these statistics? Even if true it doesn't make it any less wrong. The statue was damaged because the racial animus it foments boiled over. I couldn't care less that's it hurt your or these pretend proles you speak of that were radicaliazed against the left over statues.

this

* I couldn't care less that's it hurt your or these pretend proles you speak of that were radicaliazed against the left over statues, feelings.

I wonder which slaver statue will go down next.

Calling America a white supremacist nation shouldn't trigger you like that

NO STATUES, NO SLAVERS

Here

wew
You must really hate Leif Erikson :^)
Also 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧moralism🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

take your meds
You've got some nerve to post that after spending the thread calling people who disagree with you liberals.
so the guy with the sledgehammer was an anthropomorphic personification of that?
also I notice you made multiple posts, when doing that it's considered polite to sage all but the first one


lel

keep pointing out that Columbus was a product of his time, that doesn't mean you need to keep around a statue of him

well you sure aren't projecting


when you have no argument so you chant something in redtext and hope somebody agrees

Haha never said that, just said you can't make a claim to some majority consensus. I know it pisses a lot of proles off, it also makes a lot of proles happy like me who have always hated celebrating Columbus' legacy.
Oh brother, no statue=no slaver propaganda. Columbus is particularly bad since he didn't actually discover anything.

I was having a laff.

Kill yourself.

During four separate trips that started with the one in 1492, Columbus landed on various Caribbean islands that are now the Bahamas as well as the island later called Hispaniola. He also explored the Central and South American coasts. But he didn’t reach North America, which, of course, was already inhabited by Native Americans, and he never thought he had found a new continent. You may also remember that it is believed that Norse explorer Leif Erikson reached Canada perhaps 500 years before Columbus was born, and there are some who believe that Phoenician sailors crossed the Atlantic much earlier than that.

Make me

lol

He was a slaver, slavers are the epitome of anti proletariat actors. You wanna preserve in a museum with that context fine, but while it's out in the open it's intended to be propaganda.

It will be forgotten about in a month. Doesn't matter one way or another.

We're comin', bucko.

Anyway the reaction it's provoking is perfect, just read the comments of his video. Holla Forumstards can't resist their Nazism, it's great to taunt it out so the public can see. At first I thought all the statue shit was pointless but now that I read those comments hooo this is gonna get good.

reality is anarchist do whatever you want.
/thread

I hope none of you who believe this will ever visit Vienna. You would have a mental breakdown looking at all the "propaganda" the Habsburg commissioned.

except nobody is mad at vienna. you lack a sense of context or you're just stupid probably both.

I'm going to put it easy for you. The art at Vienna is art people care about, it's cool, pleasing to look at.
The confederate art in USA is shit only racist inbred retards care about and everyone else dislikes.

But Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, etc. were slave societies, so we should smash every monuments related to them!

How many of those monuments feature historical figures who actively fought a bloody war to preserve their slave societies?

Quite a lot of em

Anyway, those slave societies were making war at each other to get more slaves.
There's also a some slave rebellion in Ancient Rome :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servile_Wars

Those are mostly archaeological sites. This isn't comparable, these statues have no archaeological value.

Wew lad.

Civil war when?

interested. Go on

If you smash it before it gets old, of course they will never be archaeological.
The Great Pyramid of Giza was not archeological too in Ancient Times, and it was built by slaves.

I'm not sure about the US, but in most European countries anything older than 100 years is considered cultural heritage.

Destroying statues does nothing to alter the underlying material conditions that foster racism, promote imperialism or cause genocide. They may help normalize it, but they're not the underlying cause.

A good dose of satire or irony would have done a better job at highlighting Columbus historical rampage, mass rape and enslavement.
Instead, what are people supposed to make of this? The message is lost in the spectacle of cultural vandalism.
And no, I don't care about the statue.

I don't care one way or the other but they could have done something much more interesting or funny to get a better response.

The monuments of today will never be archaeological because there's literally nothing to learn from them. Archaeological sights and finds, like statues, are important because there's something to learn about the culture that built them. There's nothing to be learned from these modern statues, everything about them, and the culture that made them, are already very well documented.

Nothing Burgerland produces could be considered "cultural heritage".

We don't need history, we need a year zero on America.


I mean if we don't let them decay to ruins or use them to house aristocracy, about 50% of the time some pricknose will come along and make them into hotels.

I understand better now, it's just basic anti-americanism, as always.

that's delusional, unless you're a genocidal maniac pol pot style. and not even him manage to erase the past in his tiny little country.

there's absolutely no excuse for this type of behavior.

That's exactly the point though, there's zero educational value to these monuments.

It's true, though, and you know it.

What's wrong with bring colonialism to the Americas, exactly? Can't have socialism if you haven't even reached capitalism yet and you're still eating people and worshiping snakes.

It is a historically significant monument and I dont agree with iconoclasm but Christopher Columbus was a hack and prick and even for his time people thought he was a sick puppy.

nigga understand. people don't dislike THAT art, a roman soldier in armor no matter if he was a douchebag looks cool to many.

An inbred "the south will raise again" retard isn't cool. I prefer a tree taking that space or lets make a monument for sex because sex is cool use that space to make 2 statues fucking.

1) most claims of people practicing cannibalism in the new world are based on heresy
2) just because capitalism is necessary for socialism doesn't mean you need to honor Columbus in any way

...

Nah destroy their shit. Plant an apple tree in the spot.

Is not only about education, it's also about art. But you're gonna say that if it's american it's not art then, right?

Pretty spooky, mate

No, but I would say that there's no artistic value to any of the shit that's been destroyed so far.

The confederate statues were mass produced kitsch, basically just racist lawn flamingos and the Columbus monument was just a rock with some words on it.

And I guess you also want to smash that "rock" too.

That rock is of significant cultural importance.

Some ugly plaque dick sucking Columbus was of no cultural importance other than being the first of its "kind".

is this what subversion is? because I don't imagine the left behaving like this. not even the most retarded left.

Popular shit is going to be protected and it will remain, unpopular/infamous shit is going to be destroyed. Period.


If they can they will. Anarchy doesn't has to be justified, it just is.

How can you know what's culturally important and what is not?

I dunno, fam.

No, let's smash colonial/confederate statues because of the ideology that they stand for.

This is like reading a kekistani flag playing arbiter about what is and isn't art.


Full liberalism.

It might feel good.

What?

...

They were never trendy dude. Nobody ever wanted their tax money to be used for statues of inbred retards.
Inbred retards are the only ones who think they're important, nobody else does because liberals said they are not trendy anymore.

You don't understand context at all don't you.


No dude this is a retard who doesn't understands contexts.

These are highly ideological statues. They should be taken down, and we can put up statues to genuinely admirable people, events or concepts in their place.

yeah simple as that. breaking windows feels good, wrecking statues must feel better.

When do we take down the big one, guys?

Literal facist romanticism.

most importantly nobody likes them and they paid for that shit with their taxes

literal retard

They were totally trendy in the 19th and even early 20th century.

Why do you want so much to smash them if they are not important? Are you an inbred retard?

So you also have to smash Ancient statues because of the ideology that they stand for.

GAISSSS THIS MOVIE BE RAYCIST, BURN ALL THE COPIESSS

They don't stand for any ideology.

The civilizations of ancient times were largely unideological as we would understand ideology today.

...

...

They're irreplacable artifacts that show the past we came from and why we should fight for something better.

Really nothing prevents you from putting up all the new statues you want, or more importantly, using old ones to educate people about historical struggles.

It isn't.

They had beliefs sure, but not really an ideology. Most ideology really began in the Enlightenment, especially after the French Revolution.

Can we purge the fucking liberals?

No they aren't. Most are mass produced kitsch.

Yes, preferably with the recycled materials of the old statues that were taken down.

GUYS THIS STATION WAS LITERALLY BUILT BY MUSSOLINI, IT MUST GO AWAY

OK, let's call slave society a mode of production.
Colonial/Confederate slavery is also a mode of production.
Why do you defend slave societies?

Is this not the ideology of the digital age?
We're so used to archival that the very idea of loss has become inconceivable. These artefacts must be protected because they already exist, and because we cannot replace them. Every inane wittering on imageboards must be protected because we have the storage to do so, hell-mend the consequences for privacy. Every terrible piece of art must be protected just in case future generations happen to be interested. Every inane newspiece must be stored, in case someone wants to reference it.

We cannot let the irrelevant vanish, we must hold onto it like a hoarder, just in case, just in case, just in case. The case never comes, and when it does is often malicious in intent. The wastefulness of the approach is lost. The talent of the archivist goes from hunting down rare objects in a sea of common ones, to hunting through a sea of garbage for diamonds. As the pre-digital past becomes more distant - as strange tribute acts and nonsense search terms clutter the world - the hunt for diamonds in the garbage sea will become, statistically speaking, pointless.

We are going to drown in our own echoes.

Nah, they were not. Everyone hated the racist rednecks even back in the 19-20th century.
The only people who like racist rednecks are racist rednecks.


Better yet lynch the fans of it.

I actually agree.

Looks like gaudy shit. Tear it down.

Fuck this guy. He’s a retarted cunt. I hope he gets arrested. There’s no reason to take this down. He gives us a bad name.

YOU ARE RIGHT, DESTROY THE COLOSSEUM ANTCIENT RACIST BASTARD SLAVE OWNERS

First, you are stupid. I'm a fan on that movie because of his historical importance

Good, destroy milan main station

I don't.

The difference is that colonial/confederate shit are ideological and are used to support modern ideologies, where as ancient shit isn't, and wasn't, ideological.

your memes have convinced me

...

You guys do know that the Bolsheviks tore down symbols of the monarchy?

Would totally beat you senseless tbqh. Just for having shit taste.

We will.

And we'll build the Palace of the Soviets over it.

Yep. That's the point. Shit from old slave societies weren't celebrations of slavery, or pushing some kind of slave/supremacist ideology, they were usually cultural icons.

How do you explain all the electorals pre60's democrats victories then?
Why do liberals decide that those colonial/confederate statues were not "cool" anymore only in 2017?

Yeah I also know about this. Defenders of political art are retarded especially if it is unwanted art, nobody has to tolerate it if they don't want to just for "muh historical value".

Your analogy doesn't work with two hundred year old statues, but the even larger problem is what we in the present don't have a concept of what will actually be historically important. You can look at the dearth of information about older societies and how the common people lived and their attitudes to understand the value of archiving what you can.

Luckily digital content is cheap and easy to save and easy to collate using computer programs to process that hoard of data. It's what we're using right now to save artifacts of the ancient past that are crumbling.

the statues have always been semi-controversial, even among liberals.

Total fucking pleb.

Fact is that if tear down, statues in america and put working class heroes i'd be ok. No you are detroying statues because you they are raycist and putting statues of niggers in their place because they are oppressed for some reason

But why they decide to take them down now?

Columbus was acting in his own best interests, prove me wrong without resorting to shitty false moralist arguments.

and obviously you're racist. jesus what a fucking retard.

So what those statues represent then?

he died poor and bitter because no one liked him

That's not different from you are a jew you know?

They should smash these obscene monuments next.

Truthfully I was just using it as a pretence to talk about something else.
See, I've really come to not see it that way. We've archived enough of say the 1950s-1990s. That was the happy middle. Now we save everything and it's patently ridiculous.

And once you save it, it's much harder to delete it than had you never saved it at all.

that's not an excuse

Actually it does, the French and Russian revolution tore down far older symbols in order to make a clean break from the past. Philosophers in both revolutions talked about the need for the past to be erased to make way for the future.

But nowadays situation is not a revolution, slavery was abolished centuries ago.
Why do they make a clean break from the past only now?

Because western societies like to think of themselves as highly advanced and civilized, but the fact is most people are complete retards with 19th century mentality in 2017.
This people, so called progressives with university degrees can't grasp that they are judging past times with their current set of belives. They can't remove themselves from common sense and analise things how they were.
"Racism" wasn't even a word in those days ffs.

Only those who get caught need excuses.

This is not a problem for us to be concerned with. The obsessive derive to hoard, archive, and categorize everything under the sun in a desperate bid to hold on to the past is one of the most pervasive pathologies of our era. Just look at the fucking necrophiliac obscenity that is the mausoleum is in Moscow.

libcom.org/library/were-we-wrong-murray-bookchin

Not surprising.

I think it's probably more of a function of how cheap storage is nowadays. The opportunity cost is radically different when you're dealing with computers and terrabyte hard drives vs hand-copying and parchment.

Not surprising.

Also applies to
We have all this big data because now we can store it cheapy and have computers to make sense of it.

This sort of information processing is invaluable to fields such as ecology and other fields where uniting disparate specialists is necessary to have a rich understanding.

What the fuck is a neurotic hoarder?

I don't like the precedent this sets. Remember when the statue of Discord got broken?

I'm not talking about scientific data. Read the post I was replying to. He thinks trying to figure out what will be historically significant in the future is an important problem. Nobody who isn't deeply disturbed thinks like this. People in the past certainly didn't. They just lived their lives, recorded what they though was necessary and then we made use of whatever survived. That's history. Trying to invent the history of the future from the present isn't history and it isn't even future-oriented thinking. What it really is is an attempt to destroy the future and extend the present infinitely forward in time. It's an extremely reactionary way to think.


A hoarder who is neurotic

That's right. Those statues should be destroyed as well.

The opportunity cost has now essentially become a negative externality, though.

It costs me near nothing to store all your teenage social media posts: It costs you a lot when I send them to the press once I find out you're standing for election.


People in the past didn't need to think about this. And then when it turned out that actually they said rash things in the past, there was no evidence to back up the claims. That is no longer the case. Your past self becomes a ball and chain.

I'm not trying to invent the history of the future, I'm trying to destroy the recent past.

People in the past were limited by their means. That's history.

We're now trying to reconstruct what actually happened through works tinted by the ideologies and viewpoints of the surviving works.

Cultural memory doesn't work like this, no matter how artifacts we preserve. How many kids know what a VHS cassette is? How many of those have any sort of consciousness of it?

Additionally if my hauntology/mark fisher binge memory is correct, it was actually regularly noted by the fact the past is now eternally accessible is one of the reasons we're trapped in an eternal present, because it's impossible to "just move forward" with living in the present without reference to the past. Hence why we're trapped in this permanent nostalgia spiral.

You're listening to 2017, where it's always the 1980s!

That's people being dumb about their privacy and oversharing. Even Julius Caesar had people gossiping about him being a bottom bitch.

Except that now it does. How many kids have you spoken to? And have they seen the new Star Wars movies by any chance?

Bruh, people throughout history have been looking at the past through rose-coloured glasses and pontificating about how the people were nobler then. That's not unique to 2017, that's common to known history.

You can't blame people when it's the overarching social norm. A structural solution is required. Sometimes people must be saved from themselves.

To "not be dumb" regarding online privacy is to severely constrain your real world social life in the internet age.

For more then baby boomers knew of Mutoscope as kids. Why do you think there is such a fuzzy image of what Coney Island was like in its golden age, since that happened prior to baby boomers and even though its hey day was the roaring 1920's given it was dead by WWII it faded from memory.

The issue isn't rose coloured glasses, it's the failure to move on.
As (Fisher?) noted, 80s music would've been alien to someone from the 60s, while the only thing surprising about the present to an 80s-individual like himself is how little advancement has occurred.

And how many times have old stories been retold with a modern (at the time) interpretation?


They know of it, but it's not relevant to them. It doesn't mean the same thing to them as it does to the people who lived it.

Only to someone who hasn't been playing any attention, or not made any serious study of it.

But for Coney Island how it was not remembered to the point when historians half a century later tried to piece together what Coney Island was like they hit a road block. So much was lost to time to the point most baby boomers didn't even know the names of the three main parks in Coney Island which would be like a half century after Disney goes bankrupt, the next generation couldn't name their theme parks.

...

You're late for class

That's true. Privacy rights are more important than ever.

At least now we have reliable way of communicating and organizing anonymously or pseudoanonymous in the digital age we didn't have before.

hurrr gotta convert the nazis! the nazis are the true leftists in disguys!!!

How can I take this board seriously anymore when you fucking retards mix up Cortez and Columbus
Fucking hell
And this is the 1700s we're talking about an ARTIFACT, ISIL tier bullshit man
Fuck man you guys dont even understand Stirner
so fuck off honestly. He states quite clearly that as long as you do so out of the interest of your own ego, then giving a shit about whatever spook is fine. Its the intention that matters.
Read nigga read. How are the various ideas represented by flags on this very board not spooks? We still choose the care about them, and thats the idea. I wanna look at some statues because I like aesthetic historical shit. Doesn't mean we dont care about these stances. The important
Put the shit in a museum instead of out in the open and we're good
Respect art, thats a spook ill choose to care about anyway
Honestly dont see how this is not idpol. It doesn't hurt the establishment in any real way, so what the point other than LARP
Y'all have no right to have anymore threads bitching about the state of /his/

Columbus committed one of the first genocides in modern history against the Taino people of Hispaniola. He's a mass murderer and the fact we gave him a holiday is a continual disgrace.

it was a prety shitty monument tbh. and was badly preserved, meaning the city did't care enough to patch up those cracks and paint it.

If the police does not find the guy and arrest him for vandalism this is cointelpro.

He's not, what's he famous for that's not bougus.

Anyone who gives this much of a fuck about American colonial monuments is a fucking liberal.

Holy fuck
Someone sane in this thread
I fucking love history and i dont want to see art getting destroyed because some fucker on tumblr decided that it would be a good idea to "eh do some smashies xdd".
Those idiots are judging someone from decades ago: this is some tumblr idpol bullshit here, other than just being plain retarted.
Focus on today and conserve history instead of smashing it, because we all know that neo-fashies have a fetish for rewriting history as they want it to be.

The Spanish Empire doesn't exist anymore, unless you count the Canary Islands. Why is it so offensive to have a monument to one genocidal figure while keeping another up? Shouldn't all statues of people who committed "genocide" be treated equally using the moral notions of the radical liberals in the present moment. Truth be told neither figure had anything to do with the present US except the latter ushered in the European colonization of the Americas which was progressive from a world-historical standpoint even if it goes against our current post-modern moral feels.

And before it starts, fuck off with whole "Amerikkka" shit and muh settler-colonialism, I don't want to read settlers. Go back to reddit.

This

==WE MUST TAKE DOWN THESE VILE MONUMENTS TO SLAVERY, GENOCIDE, AND RACISM. THE APACHE KEPT AFRICAN SLAVES JUST LIKE THE RACIST SOUTHERNERS! THE CHEROKEE AND CHOCTAW FOUGHT FOR THE RACIST CONFEDERATES! THE COMANCHE UNLEASHED A REIGN OF TERROR, SLAVERY, AND GENOCIDE ACROSS THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT EQUAL ONLY TO THE RAMPAGES OF WHITE EUROPEANS!

GERONIMO WAS A RACIST ANTI-MEXICAN SLAVER WHO FOCUSED THE MAJORITY OF HIS TIME WAGING WAR AGAINST MEXICANS BECAUSE THEY RESISTED APACHE EFFORTS TO ENSLAVE AND TRADE MEXICANS. AFTER THIS TERRORIST SLAVER RETIRED HE SPENT THE MAJORITY OF HIS LIFE IN THE USA BECAUSE HE WAS AN ANTI-MEXICAN RACIST!!! TAKE EM ALL DOWN INCLUDING AZTEC AND INCA MONUMENTS TO SOCIETIES GUILTY OF RACISM, COLONIALISM, AND SLAVERY

fugg

...

Sure, replace them with statues that celebrate the apaches themselvrs, or memorialize those he enslaved.

They got Juniperro

It literally will. Even if takes centuries of struggle we will reach communism and it will only be achievable because capitalism created the material conditions for it. If Lenin is to be criticized for anything its for basically for underestimating the continued progress and liberatory potential that capitalism still had in his time. He wasn't all wrong of course he saw where things were going in that capitalism is no longer historical necessity since it had already conquered the world but he perhaps underestimated its continued appeal and ability to adapt.

...

Yet. Nobody is mad yet. The fucks have already moved on to destroying Catholic Saints.

you keep making this argument none of the smashies itt have a problem with tearing down those statues.

Try reading a history book, you ignorant fuck.

There is no such thing as white idpol.
Idpol is Idpol. Cancer

...

t.liberal redditor who repost beyonce tweets about opression

Ya I'm sure they'd love some white kid in a mask or some hotep/BLMer busting up statues to their heritage because someone from a long time ago in their society held slaves or was culpable for slavery.

Many of those statues were put up or commissioned by the Indians themselves, I wonder how they'd feel about it. Some of those tribes like the Cherokee even did pay some minor reparations themselves, I wonder how they'd see smashing up their statues over the crimes of long-dead ancestors who also suffered a genocide?

Go fellate your professor's dick, you bourgeoisie scum.

SLAAAAY QUEAAAAN
That fucking yugoposter is more liberal than a tumbler queen

Hey you know what's historical too, the destruction of the statue since it was a political statement. Preserve it the way it is now, we can't let any artifact of the past slip away

The political statement this time around being what? Racism is not cool?

Have you ever even talked to a Native American. Many HATE their porky tribe leaders. Wouldn't surprise me if something of those statutes get vandalized by money most likely intended for something to help poor Natives.

You ever think about the possibility that modern society doesn't keep progressing, that there be another another collapse? It's truly astounding how arrogant you are.

Sure, but it's historical. Just like Columbus. Don't make moral judgements, just blindly preserve history mmmmk

All it would take would be a massive sun burst or electro magnetic charge do destroy almost all digital information. Hard drives are not invincible, physical books actually survive longer.

Answer my question dumbass. What is the political statment you are trying to do here?

Christians BTFO!

These are Holla Forums trolls, right?

...

Yeah, all those working class Mexicans in LA are totally gonna love Catholic statues being vandalized. Totally.

exactly. Nothing. 0.

This country still upholds white supremacy and slavery. It's never fully abandoned either institution. Most of our goods are built by slaves in China, and we have prison slaves.

Now this is more like it.

cnn.com/2017/08/21/entertainment/missy-elliott-confederate-statue/index.html

I definitely prefer having statues of studio owned singers who promote capitalism over raycist historical figures. This was a massive success for Communism.

I'm Mexican, I'm Catholic, I'm working class, I'm fine with vandalizing a statute honoring Catholics role in indigenous genocide.

dude

Good. I agree. Is that some magic or diasese at birth or capitalism fault?

Why are you lying? You mean your parents are Catholic and you may or may not wear a crucifix, while you're actually a secular middle class dweeb.

What Columbus imposed on the people of present day Haiti includes but is not limited to genocide.

You mean the place that literally killed every single white person after the whites gave them equal rights? Great example.

We all do immoral things.

...

What a bunch of terrorist faggots, destroying monuments in the name of "progress", is there no way to stop these people? Why aren't the police getting involved isn't this shit city-property?

Sure, that doesn't mean they'd love it if you destroyed statues that commemorated their tribal heritage. Many of those leaders, while flawed, also resisted American expansion or made significant cultural achievements in Native society.

It's the same thing with white workers, they aren't going to love it if you tear down historical artifacts from the revolutionary/colonial period because its part of their heritage. The American revolution wasn't perfect but it was a world-historical revolution that ushered in the fall of the aristocracy and the rise of the bourgeoisie. We should protect at least the memory of the bourgeois revolutionaries from the SJW cretins of our time who are pushing historical revisionist dogma under politically correct clothing to erase the memory of revolution in America itself. The historical revisionists have attacked the bourgeois revolutions elsewhere in order to make communist revolution seem illegitimate or based on wrong historical speculation.

Capitalism, that statute is part of the superstructure. A superstructure that is glorifying indigenous genocide, Columbus has a holiday, it's not some dude a clueless bureaucrat built without looking him up.

I admire Titos market socialism

Nah, I mean I'm catholic, went to private catholic school and everything. My parents are cool with it too, my family is native btw.

So in the future when everyone is vegan, are y'all okay with tearing down statues of Marx, Lenin, and MLK since they ate meat? Cesar Chavez gets to stay up since he was vegan, but the rest of those carnist bigots have got to go.

Capitalism was not already a thing when Colombus was alive, how a statue of him can be a part of the capitalism superstructure?

No it's not. Jesus you are stupid

Mmmhmm, sure thing, honey.

because capitalist elites draw a continuity between Columbus' expeditions into the new world and the modern capitalist nation-state?

God damn I hate native idpol much. Your slave owning and war mongering tribes were no better than the societies in the west.

Can Hitler statues remain? He was vegetarian and really like the animal rights.

Nu-uh, we have brown skin, that means we're the good guys.

Heck yeah, he was ahead of his time.

LITERALLY PRO LIFE SCUM

More burgers clueless about Native culture. Natives preserve their culture through more than just statutes, sacred land is a bigger deal, statues is an Anglo thing to begin with.
Not claiming there's a consensus but plenty of Natives see view their slaver past with shame. They like Geronimo because he fought the white man, not because he was a slaver.

...

...

Yeah, but y'all said Southerners were just liars when they said they liked Robert E. Lee for ending the war and being an honorable man, and clearly the Italian-Americans are just lying bigots when they say they like Columbus for making them feel like part of American history, right? So why should we believe these scumbag natives?

It was built in the late 1700s, during capitalism.

...

Wait, hold up, why are you commenting on American statues and their significance to working class Americans if you don't live in America?

I assumed you were an American, dipshit. Otherwise your opinions are totally worthless in this matter.

Are you actually retarded? Columbus' whole deal was running Hispaniola for Spain's and his profit. It's not an example, it's his project.
Hint: if you have the opportunity to give someone "equal rights" it's because you are currently mistreating them.

Because Geronimo didn't go on to white out an entire civilization and colonize an entire continent.

?
Lenin legalised abortion when he came to power.

You may not like it, but this is what peak performance progressives actually look like

I went to Catholic school in burgerland, Catholic schools in burgerland are subsidized by the church and parishes often.
Burgers always assume private school=expensive because they are backwards boors.

I posted the wrong pic but that's not the point of the joke pal

So your ideology is just standard "whitey be the devil, but it's okay when we do it" muck. Alright.

You're bourgeoisie piece of shit. Fuck off.

I'm saying a lot of Natives would be perfectly comfortable with a more nuanced depiction of Geronimo and tribal slaving.
Just like I'm sure many Italians realize Columbus was a genocide slaver and shouldn't be honored.

You may not like it, but this is what peak dialectics actually look like

You're the worst poster on this board.

I guess statues of kings built after the 1700s must be capitalists and not monarchists, after all, it's not like the expedition of Colombus was funded by spanish monarchs.

lol

I know. That's what makes me the best poster on this board.

Religion is not the same thing you dyke cunt.

You should be fucking ashamed of yourself, you are hoocie minh tier. You also got me banned a week ago. Fuck you

...

Worship of these figures are borderline idolatry to Americans as far as I'm concerned.

Rip them all down

There's nothing stopping you from destroying a fucking statue romanticizing the depraved past of America

but plenty of Natives see view their slaver past with shame.
Who fucking cares tbh

Which is something I already said.

But it can also easily be said that the Comanches held tens of thousands of slaves at a time and colonized a massive chunk of the West/mid-West it was easily one of the biggest Empires in all of the Americas.

Now you're slipping into the moral historical relativism towards the past that you find galling when "white people" try to use it to defend their history.

Geronimo is now an acceptable figures for natives to look up to because at least he fought the white man and didn't wipe out and conquer a whole continent. The confederates didn't kill many Indians either cause the US had already wiped them out, they also fought against America, guess it's okay we should look up to them too

The fuck you are talking about dyke? That's totally not true

He's a hypocrite idpoller, as simple as that. We're not going to be able to reason with him.

Now im convinced that this poster is literally cancer

Yes it is. Worship of "The Founding Fathers" and all these historical figures, like Colombus, is a borderline state mandated religion to the common prole.

This has been weakened over time, and I think it's time we have a serious conversation about their ethics and the ethics of keeping these statues up.

Fuck yourself liberal

Fuck the statues. The president is literally talking of invading pakistan and ramping up afghanistan and you americans are destroying statues over racism instead of protesting against this shti. You make me sick. Americans make me sick. You love war, you deserve to die. Fuck america.

...

Do you actually think Americans here want to be in Afghanistan forever, that goes without saying anyways. You're saying "B-B-BUT YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT BOTH"

Yes, you can.

Yes, the Age of Discovery (or the Age of Exploration) was used by the capitalists for their propaganda, like the Manifest Destiny.
But it was at first monarchists policies and discoveries.

...

Just said plenty of Natives will cop to it. The others are at least inpart weary of ceding any moral authority about native persecution because Native "savagery" was literally used as a justification to kill them all. Burgers love them historical realativism, it it happened in an arbitrarily long enough time ago it doesn't significantly play a role today.
No I'm not, I just said Natives are willing to cop to it, but you hand waved it away as feels. Natives can be reactionary too, so what, they're wrong too.
Natives thought chattel slavery was wrong, and hated slave owners and had solidarity with blacks because it was the natives they tried to enslave first.

Are you talking about both? No
Are you doing shit bitch? No.
When was the last time americans rallied over the war?

physical fights, large police presence, deaths, public outrage, national guard on standby, excessive media coverage, dozens of injuries, countless arrests, presidential comments, etc.
Tell me why we shouldn't give america back to the natives

You should have a bit of a barbecue while you're at it. Cook up some vegan hotdogs and get a punk band playing.

You've been camping in this thread. And I've made my thoughts on American's military industrial complex clear enough times that repeating them is pointless.

We're going to stay in Afghanistan and that was clear to anyone with a brain.

Tell me, what new thoughts you have?


Are you?


Probably years ago.


Oh boo fucking hoo

Nope. What I'm saying here that liberals are obviously retards and people here who supports those liberals are fucking liberals retards. What I'm saying here that if you americans want to do some smashing you don't do it over statues but over war. Destroying statues is a waste of time

We worship Colombus now
Said the idpol shitposter
Even the USSR had some concern for the past statues (those that didn't represent the tsar of course) because belive it or not, socialism isn't about smashing shit, im sorry you burgers got the wrong idea.
Also
What a good example
Just go back to reddit and discuss your statue smashing bullshit there for christ sake, or just join the alt-right since you allign so much with their "let's rewrite history guyz xdd" bullshit concept.

Ehy skank, read the full fucking post before replying

Burning books is the same as smashing propaganda. Hahaha

What is idpol about what I'm saying


Asia didn't. Guess where I'm from.


It's been about smashing the past plenty, plenty of times.


So you're saying the cultural revolution was a failure. That's objectively false. Whether you like it or not.

Boo Hoo

We get a day off "honoring" him. Not worship but still.

Full retard

Books are propaganda.
Burning is just another way to smash.

Books are propaganda if they aren't imposed on people, like say a statue installed in a public square.

Statues that take up tax dollars to keep restored are not the same as books you can privately buy.

*Books aren't propaganda

...

Public libraries take up tax dollars too.


So you're also going to burn billboards you don't like because they are public too?

And? They contain more than the equivalent.


Honestly yes. Billboards are the worst most gaudy bullshit, I'd love to burn a fucking billboard for a casino

American billboards were torn down after the Cuban revolution.

Nigga I would burn billboards because they exist. Fuck billboards.

You've just defined propaganda in a way which excludes Fox News and the Daily Mail. I don't think we need any more proof you're arguing in bad faith.

Are you kidding me, I dream about one day hacking electronic billboards and posting dank communist maymays.

And it means you are paying taxes for propaganda.

For the moment you only smash colonial/confederate statues, you don't fucking burn capitalists billboards.

Nope. As it does not contain the equivalent.


BECAUSE THAT SHIT IS EVERYWHERE AND IT'S ALWAYS COVERED IN GRAFFITI ANYWAYS

t. Dumbass "Holla Forums" McShit

No, billboards are worse because slavery was abolished but capitalism is hegemonic.

So you're entitled to change what socialism is about because of your skin colour and nationality
AMAZING
Decapitating the Tsar statue isn't "smashing the past", it's destroying the symbolism of the regime that oppresed the whole country, pretty much like rebels in post-fascism era took down explicit pieces of fascist propaganda, but they didn't go smashie smash on entire zones or buildings that were build under the bald sinner era because you can always convert those buildings instead of destroying it becaue a bunch of bricks offends you.
No it fucking sucks, like everything that came under mao, but you're too deep into your "guyz smashing shiet is totally socialism xd" crap to understand it.
I'll stop replying, this thread got derailed by a bunch of kids LARPing as socialists; let's just say that i finally understand why half of this boards loathes idiots like those posters right here.

Burning a billboard covered in graffiti anyways is going to do some shit to capitalism the same way a historical monument is.

Right


Not at all. I'm saying that Asia dealt with destroying statues of the past far more easily than you have, you're throwing a fit.


Good.


Again, it worked, whether you agree with its methods or not. I don't think you have a clear understanding of just what the cultural revolution was, and it wasn't just destroying shadows of the past.

as well

Because nobody would care and hence it wouldn't get press. I don't care that much about the statue thing but billboards are going to go down sometime.

They're already graffiti magnets, burning them actually destroys relevant late capitalist art.

Ehy fatty. Are you asian?

Smashing statues of Colombus is pointless bullshit and anyone that thinks this is some huge omen or victory for the left because of "le epic Holla Forums tears XD" is a retarded LARPing liberal that can't see the forest for the trees. The removal of the Confederate statue was more noteworthy than this and even that wasn't some huge blow to the establishment.

It's entirely within the right of the population to destroy past monuments they disagree with.

This. Even if you disagree it's up to the people whether they want to destroy them or not. I say this as someone that would rather have even the ugly monuments put in storage somewhere rather than just destroyed.

It's within the rights of the population to do lots of stupid bullshit, I don't see how that's relevant seeing as how I never argued otherwise.

All this lifestylism, holy shit

Late Capitalism is inherently going to create it, and you can't do much to stop it. That's just the way it is.

As far as destroying statues go, this is the farthest I've seen it go in a very long time.

So do you agree with the population that remove socialists statues in ex-Eastern Bloc countries?

If they see it so fit, then why not. Statues are symbolic, you agree.

America tore down statues of every leader they destroyed, it's only fair I think, America gets a taste of its own.

There is a big difference, Lenin statues are being torn down by those against the Russian revolutions. Marxists don't see the point of giving counter-revolutionaries any rights.

It's a bit late for that, mate.

...

We are talking about Lenin statues and the fact the argument against Lenin statues in Eastern Europe is that there should have been no revolution and the Tsarist Empire should have remained intact.

Socialism exists in idea, as stereotypical as it sounds, outside of statue.

If the populace wants it gone, there's little to be done. They'll tear it down eventually.

Well in Ukraine it became one of the driving forces fuelling the civil-war.

I admit I know little about the conflict in the Ukraine so I can't comment. Eastern Europe is an area I need to keep researching on. Sorry

There is a massive split over the interpretation history of Ukraine and Lenin statues become a symbol as it become a good litmus test for which side one falls on the Russian Revolution.

I suppose there's more nuance but when it comes to the United States, a bunch of statues glorifying racial animosity is eventually going to reach a boiling point

And to that I say, really so what? It's bound to happen and I suggest we just sit aside as not get put in the middle of it. Or perhaps support it.
Screaming about it destroying history only makes things worse.

Read the article m8