Dr. Richard Wolff on Hartmann: America is one great depression away from Fascism

Also it seems like there will be an economic crisis down the line and it will bring about a showdown on left and right for ultimate handling while the center sinks.
youtube.com/watch?v=bPxG9FLlhLU
full interview here:
youtube.com/watch?v=bPxG9FLlhLU

Other urls found in this thread:

bostonreview.net/world/g-m-tamás-post-fascism.
salon.com/2017/05/16/privatized-for-profit-immigrant-detention-centers-are-a-living-nightmare-investigation-shows_partner/
nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/08/poll-half-of-gopers-open-to-postponing-of-2020-elections.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

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doubtful.

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Commies never had the internet before.

not true, the DSA-SRA-BLM and stuff liek that are getting more organized than ever
you may not like but this is how peak communism in american looks like

'no'

the US is so right wing that seriously, looking at it from Western Europe, it looks like the DSA is pretty much as left as Burgers are willing to go

We better hope for some fucking organic centralization

Centralism*
Goddamn phone

What is everyone's thoughts on Dr. Wolff? I was watching a video of his where he was talking about establishing cooperative businesses in the US. Seems to make some good points

Wolff is the man. He is exactly what classcucked America needs tbh

Anyone else here seriously think about what even a small guerilla insurgency in the US would look like?

No longer would the insurgents be a bunch of goatfuckers using 50 year old AK's to take potshots at convoys and the occasional roadside bomb. No, now they've got drones, a truly ridiculous number of guns up for grabs, extremely high access to resources, fuel, near constant access to the internet, easily gained surveillance, and the ability to blend in with the american public. Hell, how many countries who remember the damage done to them by secret operations done by the US, would want to get in on that, supplying rebels secretly, likely on both sides.

This place will become a fucking hell on earth.

I agree. Also consider how many former and current US soldiers would gladly throw in with any hypernationalist insurgency

scared.jpg

All they have to do is hold onto their states and what bluefor starve. I doubt the majority want to round up people or commit atrocities, many just want to be left alone, which other than the Plymouth rock migrants is pretty much why most people moved their.

You don't need a majority for systemic attrocities to take place.

You do need the majority of armed forces to though and I think you're overestimating how many are willing to shoot people into shallow ditches, that's usually something reserved for those blinded by ideology.

A few hundred people from an underground militia can cause systemic atrocities easily.

Well then you'd better try and avoid a war, because that's the only scenario I can see that happening in with anyone actually getting away with it.

That's kind of the point though. It's becoming a whole hell of a lot more plausible that we'd actually see insurgencies in the US with how volatile and fractured it is.

Only because fringe groups are being empowered and emboldened by the same people.

The goatfuckers are used to horrible life and war is just another day for them. The average Amerilard would get a heart attack if his xbox stopped working. Though I guess the army isn't too different, so it'd be some comical shit.

Does he really believe this? I watched the interview and he really fails to really characterize fascism in a meaningful way, mostly talking about how yeah, a large crisis is looming but that there is no real reason to expect fascism.

Fascism is not just any instance of capitalism with reactionary ideology and martial law thrown in (the various Latin American dictators in Argentine for example, were they fascists?). Fascism is a tendency that's always been historically contextual and the product of a double failure: a failure of effectively policing capital through a crisis and its consequences (decay of national capital, then the social-identitarian it enabled and sustained, etc.), and the failure of workers' organizations in successfully combating and in time replacing these policies. Fascism could rise because it could blame the weakness of the prior permissive or liberal reigme's inability to combat the workers' opposition, which would then be demonized into ideological scapegoat for exposing the weaknesses of the treacherous or ineffective regime, gaining the favor of the bourgeois elites and disaffected lower middle classes. There is today no workers' movement that poses any type of relevant threat to the status quo. In fact, nothing but the status quo (neoliberalism) is today threatening the neoliberal status quo. We are going to enter (or are entering already, really) something more describable as right-neoliberalism, post-neoliberalism or what I believe is the most accurate: post-fascism; the aesthetic veneer of the fascistic tendency (nationalism, blood and soil, etc.) yet none of the martial and anti-democratic insurgency found in fascism (because the urgency is not there without any type of real opposition). Read more on this here: bostonreview.net/world/g-m-tamás-post-fascism.

On fascism proper again, I think Dauvé puts it best in Fascism/Anti-fascism:

The media coverage by the corps owned by those same people doesn't help either. If Trump gets the boot that will be that for even the pretense of democracy in the states though. So that's what they're aiming for.

Shame you traded worker movements for minority vanguardism.

And I mean even if we use this usual eulogy accepted by most as the origins of fascism's victory, and if we accept that the reactionary tards in Charlottesville were actual fascists, the Order of the Tiki Torches got their asses handed to them so hard like in any other recent LARP event featuring right wing thugs that we don't even have to worry about that.

Sure, they're being emboldened, but it's not too hard to see that it's also fertile breeding grounds for people to go lone wolf or take off in groups of True Believers and the like to take matters into their own hands.

I thought you'd be looking forward to a little anarchy.

Plus most of the right won't move until Trump gets impeached by a blue state jury court.

I'm just commenting on it. That doesn't mean stop.

tbh they all look like they're all being herded by the same interests to a point were both sides will lose anyway.

I love the economic update podcast, but i'm sorry this is just dumb bullshit.

The US has some of the strongest institutions in the entire world. Why do you think that the far-right GOP, bordering on damn near full libertarian, is still not able to make any radical changes despite the fact that they control the House, Senate and Execute branches as well as the supreme court? Our government is EXTREMELY good at keeping the status quo and working through change incrementally (whether democrat or republican-led change). Even if we have another great recession the exact same thing will happen as last time. Big business will get bailed out, the 99% will get poorer while the 1% will keep making insane amounts of money. Then the 99% will bounce back to stagnant level wages and things will keep trucking along.

That's massive homelessness, unemployment, even famine-tier poor, tho. 50% of the population is already down the shitter hanging by a thread.

Another great recession would cause even the service economy to pack up and leave.

This guy has the right idea.
We are entering a multi polar world, the post america world, the world were america is no longer the main and only hyper power. the neoliberlism of the Clinton years is dead, but neo liberlism isnt dead, its evolving.
In the coming years nationalism will be ratcheted up, but it will be civic nationalism, And various blocs will form and compete against each other.
I believe you can read about such a world in this obscure book i know called "1984"

I wonder how big the tent-cities will become before some of them begin to organize into their own communes. It is possible that we will see a new socialism form out of these growing communities of those who have had everything taken from them by the exploitative systems of capital.

If you remember, the protagonists from They Live were members of a tent city whose population was becoming radicalized to the extent that they were manufacturing the ideology sunglasses for which the film is known.

more like millions
Hey, you can always reach Somalia-levels.

oh fuck off already

dont say i didnt warn ya.

Why'd you have to throw in 1984 though.

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Called it

They are forcing Trump to go fascist or quit, and he's not going to quit. War and fascism. 3 years from now on.

We are watching a civil war between the powerful and that's going to translate into the streets or be represed.

And, why the hell do they keep cleaning anerican antifa? idpol nazbol is the closest thing to their realistic description

American institutions are only as strong as the bourgeoisie allow them to be. As profit becomes scarcer they will start cutting corners.

Hoo boy, yeah, they're really twisting his arm.

>small guerilla insurgency in the US would look like?

I think many leftist should take a play form the Blank Panther playbook on organizing a militia.,They were able to make at least a blueprint of urban organizing. It will be harder now since Americans are under surveillance everyday, But highly doubt leftist groups would make it that far. Today the left is too busy caring about idpol and anti-sjws than actual organizing/training and not just joining some shitty Left party organization where you just listen to lectures and pass newspapers. America is doom to be a fascist state.

keep going i'm about to cum

Eh. There was far more civil unrest in the '70s. I think if anything we'll see something closer to that. I still don't believe the fascism or world-crumbling-depression hype.

Yeah everything's fine until it isn't.


Trump will be out on his arse sometime in 2018.

mega Satan wills it

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A lot of these threads, on here and 4/pol/ alike, always seem to ignore normies and liberals. Not to pull a It Cant Happen Here or anything, but how/why would any sort of oppressive fascism of the '30s reappear in the US? I just don't think most people would take it laying down, even if they're filthy libs and neocons. Groucho Totalitarianism a la modern Italy or crackdown era Regan is far more believable, and likely, desu.

Which will solve nothing if it happens.


I think you're underestimating how spineless liberal normies are. They'll take the path that leads to the least amount of conflict for them personally.

Libs gonna lib. But to think that every single lib and neocon is just going to do nothing is pretty ridiculous, imo. These are the guys who pulled the youth and aids riots of the '60s and '80s after all.

None of this is to say that they'll be effective or even helpful, but let's not just call them passive and forget they exist. They're still the vast majority of the American populous.

your thinking is exactly that of cuckdems from 1930s, or at least what they argued. "hitler will have to play by the rules", they said. well, he didn't. and it's not dependend on just trump. his entire clique, the military, many more people, they are all interested in violently oppressing any resistance to what is yet to come. those cuts on social spending will have an effect. and the radicalisation has only just begun to show itself.
it is going to happen.

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That very rhetoric is being destroyed by lib media right now though. I just refuse to be overly pessimistic about all of this. These aren't invincible people we're up against. Libs are finally starting to wake up again. Especially when you have Cornell West explicitly defending and promoting the anarchists.

Well it removes a president that is lowkey assisting fascism. That said he didn't invent racism and that and the knife edge economy will still be there.

and the SPD did attack hitler as anti-democratic and so on back then too. there is really not much different today.

the tools to shut down opposition are already there, created in the "ar against terror". it's not just street violence that played a role back then or now. the system has already been prepared for a fascist takeover. it's far more subtle than you make things out to be. just as in the 30's. then too the cuckdems had already created and used laws to shut down and even shoot up protests. it will happen again, it will cause radicalisation, it will create more restictive laws and those existing be more abused.

But liberals fought in the Spanish Civil War and overthrew the French Monarchy. It's absolutely in our best interest to encourage liberals to return to '60s styled revolts, even if they aren't far enough. Divide & Conquer.

I think all Trump did for them was open up the floodgates. He's not really actively helping them now, he's just floundering like an idiot trying to avoid saying bad things about people who have stroked his ego.

Pence would toe the party line and officially condemn them like you're supposed to but they wouldn't give a fuck, and he wouldn't actively do anything to stop them. Pence is as much of a piece of shit as Trump, he's just more of a politician about and less of a blithering moron.

it's a slippery slope dude, don't be naive. the worst mistake you can ever make is to underestimate your enemies.

a lot of the european holocaust was just a byproduct, an afterthought of rapid industrialization and state seizure of corporations. japanese manchuria was the same thing, massive deaths due to terrible working conditions and meanwhile crazy corporate hookups for porkies of all types.. not even intentional per se..

So the scenario would be 'Trump's going to make a lot of jobs'. It's a simple as that. And look they're starting to sell the midwest to Amazon for US sweatshops. The service industry (a cuckish hellzone, no one's savior, but a last remaining shade of normalcy for working people) could collapse at any minute, then state seizes some factories and pays people whatever to overwork themselves to death..

salon.com/2017/05/16/privatized-for-profit-immigrant-detention-centers-are-a-living-nightmare-investigation-shows_partner/

It's already going on big time in the private prisons / military industrial complex.. One of the major tenants of fascism is the closure of boarders to make slaves out of immigrants, the increased police presence on the streets, the rallies.. DJT didn't even take the oath of office, he pledged allegiance to his movement only.

tl;dr fascism isn't just one 'historical set of very specific circumstances' it's actually very broad & all the signs are there right now. if you don't call it early and loudly you're fucked.

also what lamebrain mod banned torposting

Here's how it's gonna happen:
economic crisis occurs sometime down the road to 2020, unemployment continues to skyrocket
Trump and his executives will find a way to blame immigration laws, and they'll "postpone the election until we can get immigration figured out"
nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/08/poll-half-of-gopers-open-to-postponing-of-2020-elections.html
Trump will use his unlimited time as president to support and fund neoliberal, fascist congressman during the 2018, 2020 elections.
The police force will be put on steroids under the guise of opposing illegal immigration by the new local neoliberal reps. Violence on Blacks, Muslims, and Latinos will most likely skyrocket.
Possible that some type of false flag will be staged, to encourage violence in North Korea, Syria, or maybe some other country.
High unemployment rates will make people desperate for work, increasing the number of jobs that pay below minimum wage. Laws restricting businesses will likely be eradicated by the new neoliberal governors and congress.
Trump will use the Federal Reserves to increase the budget used to subsidize private businesses in profitable areas.

Collapseitarians are wrong

epic argument, why don't you take a 30 minute walk and get your heart rate up then try again

Bit of a difference though.

The 70s the government didn't have the laws it had in place now, every police station didnt have tanks and drones back then, the left was largely the only force militarized. The Nazi far right was a late comer and didn't bloom until 80s and 90s.

There's a lot of things different but the tensions feel the same.

To do anything but lay down is to resist the largest, arguably best trained and unarguably best equipped terror-state in human history.

The people you're talking about been have been laying down since WWII. So have their children and their children after them.