Do you guys actually manage to talk to people about communism without being viciously hated on? No matter your tendency...

Do you guys actually manage to talk to people about communism without being viciously hated on? No matter your tendency, you seem to have lost by default:
Leftcom/AnCom
Marxist-Leninist
The debate is pretty much over at this point because you will be constantly in the defense, while the other side can just easily point at capitalism and say: "Look, it works/it emerged victorious!" Or the other person will start to be extremely hateful towards you, calls you a member of a cult, comes up with a ridiculous strawman, or simply just disregards everything you say. It is so extremely tedious.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=npkeecCErQc
archive.is/hpQgW
archive.is/KIkkv
indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=74&category=8&issue=9
amazon.com/dp/B019HDSCPU/ref=asc_df_B019HDSCPU5083404/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395009&creativeASIN=B019HDSCPU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=191951420828&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5092148080129130509&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021461&hvtargid=pla-355821411527
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

All you can hope to do is point them to resources that make them come to the conclusion themselves. You're very unlikely to just convert someone.

bide your time and when the revolution occurs, you call the cheka on them.

You can't argue with idiots, or those who don't want to argue honestly. I learned this from trying to debate my retarded brother.

Try talking about communism without actually using the word. Relate it to people's everyday lives and common concerns, like "how is it that we have billionaires on the same planet as people that won't earn a hundred bucks in their life" and then go from there. Seems to work out a little better than just jumping straight in.

exude confidence in debate. be an interesting person. normies are weak, they will come around.

...

this. don't be like "HEY YOU GUYS NOW ABOUT THIS THING CALLED UH COMMUNISM,ITS PRETTY NEAT HUH?" it literally sends off spook alarms in their ideology glasses.
just drop some logic bombs and graphs to make them realize how things really are.

Tried that. Besides with the retarded argument like "look, just because someone is rich doesn't mean they took it from some one!" eventually they are just going to ask me if I'm a socialist/communist. Then I pretty much have to reveal my powerlevel.

What I've tried what works slightly better is by arguing more about the abstract concepts of alienation, how production for exchange destroys culture and crushes our souls. I like to combine this with recommendations like Capitalist Realism (Mark Fisher) and Reproduction of Daily Life (Fredy Perlman) which are entertaining reads and not just dry theory.

No joke this. Id add to use rhetoric, use emotion, pull out the stops. What eventually happens is people give up and accept your divine right to give out opinions. If someone doesn't stop you on something, they practically never will. It's why people let others annoy them to the point they can't take it. Just make sure to have other interests, obviously. You probably don't want to piss people off. Rhetoric as in appeal to people's spooks or personal issues, within reason of course.
Also if you ever browse reddit you lose all of your communist abilities and can only be lukewarm liberal who argues about white muh privilege

ha no, I sperg out like fuck and crush my enemies, but most people think I'm way far gone now, thats the only trade off

lmao, ISIS flag strikes again

I know this too well. Normies get super fucking aggressive if you suggest the USSR wasn't literally hell on earth.

It's funny because in my experience, I've seen normies react much more different when talking about Nazi Germany. I've had people telling me: "you see, that's why fascism like Hitler is dangerous, because it actually works!!!" They think of Hitler like some evil genius that created all these jobs. For some reason, they see the war Nazi Germany caused as some side of an outside factor, while they see the problems the nascent USSR and PRC had as inherent to the system because of reasons I guess.

That shouldn't put you on the defense though, unless you yourself believe that Stalin and Mao indeed killed muh gorillions

It's funny browbeating libertarians and ancaps with Somalia when they go on the offense with "huh so it wasn't real socialism huh? huh?" - asking them why Somalia isn't true capitalism quickly has them backstepping miles until you get them to start ranting about niggers. Pretty amusing.

THIS SO MUCH. Whenever you ask them about Africa, you have double down on it. Specifically make them point out why Africa is so poor. You'd be surprised how even liberals will eventually resort to some form of "hurrdurr niggers" eventually.

It's super fucking hard to argue with these people in person. Even if you knew all the stats by heart, they'd just mark them off as propaganda while spouting hearsay "facts" about how terrible everything was.

One approach that kind of seems to work is to change topics toward the achievements of socialist states in regards to living standards, education, etc.

Stalin and Mao killed a combined 50-70 million people per PowerKills and Necronomics the two most accurate collations of the modern available resources on the subject. Stalin is estimated to have killed no less than 20 million and no more than 30 million, while Mao is estimated to have killed no less than 30 million and no more than 50 million. Though I personally believe the Communists are responsible for about 60 million deaths in total, and the Fascists if we include japan are responsible for around 35 million deaths. The difference is that the KMT, Nazis and Imperial Japanese military were killing at much higher rates per 100,000 civilians than any other military in world history outside of the Golden Hordes. So, the all time mega-kill awards are still in the hands of the right wing. The KMT, Nazis and Japanese all 3 out-paced the CCP and Bolsheviks in terms of efficiency at murder. Something to admire about right wingers is the attention to machine-like efficiency.

You don't know all the stats by heart, I do though.

I like dragging them down the ideological thought process they go down, they're like "Africans can't have a libertarian society because they're poor and stupid" - but there's no state so why isn't the free market filling the vacuum? Why are foreign companies not investing in the proud nation of Somalia?
If they start bitching about pirates you can get them with the pollution on the coastline that began when the government collapsed and transnationals starting dumping shit making the fishermen turn to piracy.


You need to be more assertive and learn to pin people down when they're trying to weasel their way out of the part where you win.

I've converted people through explaining the whole concept of surplus.
Many working class people are very much annoyed by people who don't work for a living, so by showing them that bosses earn money through other people's work, it directs their resentment to the proper place.

This is a nice little video for sharing on Facebook or something youtube.com/watch?v=npkeecCErQc

difference is that KMT, Nazis and Japanese empire kill count is established almost entirely through deaths by violence and the communist ones are through 'political famines' which means 'famines in communist countries' and includes people who were 'supposed to be born' but weren't.

No, if you subtract deaths by famines the numbers still come out in the tens of millions the CCP and Bolsheviks actually massacred millions with bullets and torture centers and hard labor. You're just parrotting lies from this board and other weasels
archive.is/hpQgW

pathetic, literally "1 million executed"

and no you're showing ignorance, the KMT's kill count stems almost entirely from forced conscription death marches and starving their own soldiers and people to death like maniacs, exactly like the Bolsheviks did. And again if you think what the Bolsheviks did in Ukraine was justified, you deserve to be buried alive with your head sticking out of the ground on the Kentucky Derby Race Track

lol

Stop hoarding grain.

There are a dozen cited sources, all of them cannot be propaganda the plausibility of that is less than 5%

Stop being disgusting commies

archive.is/KIkkv

wow that's like millions of people from two different sources. Its almost like the mass murdering, totalitarian dictator with his skeleton soldiers actually murdered millions of right wing leaning christians? Weird, find it hard to believe. But then again my leftist academic sources say that Stalin killed 300,000 people and they were all Kulaks, and my friends at Holla Forums say that only 300,000 jews were killed, and they are jews. So i guess this is just like the holohoax right? No one died, jews and porky are the only poeple who kill people right? WW2 era was v peaceful, no one died from any governments except fascist, but that's not true because I'm nazbol so i believe that no one died from democide except evil capitalists killing righteous fascists, err i mean nazbols.

sorry i forget what i'm supposed to believe sometimes, i know we're just meme'ing on newfags and normies who pass through here. Sorry guys i'll remember to deny the holocaust and holohoax next time

lol

I'm too lazy now to go into this in-depth, but I'll say this: The Holocaust happened. We have the documents. The Holodomor? Highly questionable both in terms of numbers as well as in terms of the motive, specifically. The Black Book of Communism isn't a legit source. Read Fraud, Famine and Fascism by Douglas Tottle.

did you just have a stroke or did you intentionally gas-light and then say something that was a non-sequitor so i'd reply and it would distract from the body of what I said?
am i talking about abortion? did i mention anything like this? No? then stop being stupid

The Holodomer happened, the soviets purposefully requisitioned needed grains and resources to punish the rural right wing, christian populations of Ukraine who mistrusted the Russian-Jewish bolsheviks. That's it. It was an intentional famine that killed millions and during the whole thing the NKVD were rounding up and mass-torturing/murdering civilians at random. It was a campaign of terrorism against civilians and it worked. Its also the reason Ukraine is virulently anti-communist now.

You're all fucking pathetic, you can't even own the bad parts of your history. I've met nazis who admit the holocaust happened and that they are proud of it and would do it again. Despicable yes, but at least they're fucking honest and upfront. You slimy fucks are as gross to me as the Holla Forumsyps who think the holocaust didn't happen. Which you'll notice they don't have threads about anymore just like chemtrails because everyone knows its bullshit, obviously the holocaust happened its way too big of an event to fake. Holodomer is the same deal, it wasn't fake.

Use arguments. People doubt everything nowadays, and it's easy to make them doubt it too.
Muh gorillions isn't a good argument against anything.

Let the other person hit you first so that it would seem that they are trying to convert you. They will not be irritated in that case.

I don't know. Where I live, communism has positive brand value. But really, the only places it would be viciously hated would be Eastern European countries, maybe Muslim too.

No i'm not reading evil champagne liberal soc dem canadacuck propaganda. I know what happened in Ukraine, they starved the christians and used terror campaigns to suppress them. could the kulaks have submitted and saved themselves pain? sure. are they right for resisting commies? yes of course. and the commies actions in response are indicative of how ruthless Marx and Engels really were and how evil Lenin and Stalin really were. Its all hidden behind words about brotherhood, humanity, equality, love and working. But its a power grab. Seriously fuck yourself you lying stupid fuck

not all of us are americans

peak ideology.

It's hated in Sweden for sure. And in the United States, and South Korea, and probably most porky countries.

It's just we have discussed this thing over and over and over on this, and the consensus which was even shared by the Anarchists and Leftcoms was that the Holodomor narrative is bullshit from the beginning to the end. Now you show up, derail this thread, insult everybody and mention the fucking Black Book of Communism. And then you wonder why you don't get an honest discussion? Just piss off and don't come back

I doubt either of them would have an especially high opinion of the USSR tbqh.

I don't, tbqh.
99% of the people around me are lost cause libtards or hurr durr conservatives.
The only people I do regularly discuss politics with are my old lady and my sister (whom I gave a list of books to read).
I don't even try anymore, it's somewhat frustrating but necessary in order to maintain my sanity in an insane world.

Can everybody stop replying to this faggot and get back on topic?
He's just getting more and more spergy, his idea of Communism is Lenin telling Stalin to starve millions of good boys, and every communist both denies this and supports it, unlike our based shit poster here. Get a clue faggot, and stop giving him (you)s.

If someone dies when the birth rate is 1.3 children per person, 2.3 people died. Dying from a fall, in your sleep, or drinking yourself to death is always the evil machinations of Stalin himself.

eh, depends on the region
the left party is most popular in the east

I don't actually have a problem with propagating communism with Muslims. What you have to do is scrap the family stuff from Engels ad the atheism and give the whole thing an anti-imperialist edge.

In general I made better experiences with non-westerners. They even like the Soviet Union quote often.

But Die Linke is more liberal in the east, interestingly.

no you guys have Holla Forums style echo chamber conversations where you exclusively cite leftists thinkers and academics and wholesale throw out the sources and claims, arguments and figures from centrists, conservatives, fascists, moderates and non-interested parties. Where are your sources? i've posted multiple dozens of sources with figures and i've read my sources multiple times. What research have you done outside of looking for answers you wanted to see?
faggot lifestylist leftist brainlets
no this is a weapon that all extreme ideologies use. "the inquisition was nothing' "the western crusades were nothing" "the cultural revolution was nothing" "the great terror was nothing" "the purges were nothing" "holocaust was nothing" its literally textbook police-state 1984 tactics and you're insulting my intelligence by using it on me.
No i never mentioned it even once, another poster did. It happens to be 1 of the dozen sources in necrometrics realistic body count section discussing Stalin. The poster, a typical propagandist is using the speed and lack of conscientiousness of the other posters to derail my contributions to the thread. The only person who is derailing are you and them.
I'm not discussing anything I'm posting charts, figures, sources and stats because I am not a communist and I have nothing to worry about if Stalin comes out of the argument looking bad. But if i was a marxist or a tankie its pretty embarrassing if my great historical legacy is soaked in oceans of christian and peasant blood, which it is.

I think they would have liked it, but who knows. The point is that this evil was implicit in their works early on and every person who expanded on their beliefs ended up committing mass murder and enslaving a whole population to their will.

no one is being a sperg, I'm exasperated and fully explicating my position so I don't get banned or called a Holla Forumsyp for fucks sake I fucking made some of the posts that debunk the "socialist" nature of Not Socialism. I'm not trying to do anything other than spread knowledge. That's it. That's all i've ever done on this board. I've never spread propaganda or e-celeb bullshit

Shut the fuck up you stupid fucking faggot, you sound like a fucking fascist trying to pretend that less Jews existed in Europe and thus there could be no holocaust. Seriously slam your hand in a car door you dumb lying, anti-intellectual slimey, weasel fuck face. no one calculates mass death statistics like that and that isn't at all where those figures come from. Jesus christ shut the fuck up you're so dumb its anger inducing

I'm breaking my own rule replying to you. I don't think you understand what a colossal faggot you're being. You come on to a leftist board, get mad they talk about leftism, you get mad they aren't listening to your bullshit, which is repeatedly debunked here. Then you say you are contributing to a thread you are derailing! You're a retarded faggot grandpa, and it's time to go home. Your "arguments" are shit. We've all heard it, they're tired, and useless. If we got all the posters here, chances are there'd be a screencap for every point you make, because your entire existence on the board is like an easy bake oven brownie, you're annoying to make, there's far too much of you, and no one wants your shit in the first place.

still better than the spd there though

focus on capital and the harmful effects thereof rather than jumping straight to hammers and sickles and scaring normies

You sound like a butthurt Ukrainian whose great grandfather was a kulak.

if they're randomly distributed. jesus that is not how statistics works.

Everyone who attributes a high number of deaths to mao and maoism counts statistics like that.

indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=74&category=8&issue=9

and before you say 'blah blah she's a maoist propagandist blah blah' be advised that not one of the hundreds of people who attributes high death tolls to mao has offered a rebuttal. These death total aggregator sites you're using are garbage. They have little to no knowledge of the periods in history they're discussing and rely on discredited barnes and noble books like the Black Book of Communism and Mao: the Untold story.

stay mad idiot

hahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

omfg hahahahahahahahaha

just read this pro-maoist propaganda. Nevermind the meticulously recorded CCP records of the millions of dissidents murdered and tortured, nevermind the hundreds of thousands of eye-witness testimonies

hahahahahaha this board omfg hahahahahaha

i actually think Holla Forums has gotten better this past year. I don't see any chemtrail shit, any ancient alien shit and no holohoax shit. They realized they can't lie and get away with it forever.

hahahaha the ccp were absolute fucking monsters hahahahahah "oh no the evil imperialists counted chinese people who died of accidents" hhahahahahahahahahaha omfg hahahahahaa

well, utsa patanaik is one of the world's leading development economists but I'm gonna go with what you're saying because your grandpa was a wrecker and you're really good at staying calm on the internet.

Man we are getting a lot of LAFFINZ today.

I hope the cheka slaughter you tbh, it would give me a hearty laugh.

Wow, the butthurt is real here

If you're american point out that the system we live in is a poor excuse for democracy, not very "free" and the sheer waste produced by the system while millions go without.

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You both like politics.
You: Kennedy deserved it.
Stranger: true
You: Now that's what I like to hear.
You: :)
Stranger: I just hate americans. why do you think he deserved it?
You: Because he was a drug addled womanizer and a imperialist pig.
You: I am an american.
You: But
Stranger: drug addled womanizer yes, imperialist how?
You: They all are technically.
Stranger: watch RT much?
You: Nah.
You: Russia is an imperialist actor too.
You: THey're just opposed to American foreign policy
You: Which is why they have so many "leftists" on their show.
Stranger: 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧leftists🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
You: ?
You: Is this a code word for something?
Stranger: you've never seen that?
You: Probably on 4chan or youtube comments.
You: But I never really cared.

Stranger: it was a big thing on twitter a year or two ago
Stranger: people still have it on their names
You: Ah!
Stranger: it means jews
You: It's a alt-right thing. I remember now.
Stranger: yes. I'm not alt right btw it was a joke
You: k.
You: It's fine.
Stranger: are you a jew though
You: lmao no. But you're not convincing anyone you're not a alt-righter with that stuff.
Stranger: im kidding. so you voted hillary?
You: I didn't vote.
Stranger: thanks for giving us trump then
You: Eh. He caved in to big moneyed interest like I thought so it's cool.
Stranger: you like big money owning government?
You: Not particularly.
You: Why do you hate Americans?
Stranger: that was a joke too. #notallamericans
You: No duh.
You: 320, 000, 000 people
You: So what are your thoughts on Kennedy?
You: and who killed him?
Stranger: as a non-american i don't know much about it
You: What country? And more importantly do you have oil?
You: Just for research
You: You understand.
Stranger: Australia. no oil plz dont bom
You: Ah.
You: You people have the tamest history ever.
Stranger: we have the only completed genocide in history
Stranger: not so tame
You: implying
You: Abourgienees are still around from what I'm aware.
You: Or whatever the fuck.
Stranger: not on tasmania
You: So you mean on a rock nobody knows about except a Looney Toons character?
You: m8
You: m88888888888888
Stranger: that rock is probably bigger than whatever state your in
You: You probably missed a spot is all I'm saying.
Stranger: not me m8
You: YOU I meant Australians
You: Fuck America got the whole shebang.
Stranger: you still have indians
You: pft we don't talk about them.
Stranger: why is that? we never stop talking about aborignes
You: Are aborignes Australian citizens?
Stranger: since 1969
You: even the nomadic ones off the grid?
Stranger: yes, and i don't think there's any like that any more
Stranger: the last ones made contact in the 80s
You: Damn you ruined my perfect set up for me roasting you.
You: How did you see through my plan?
Stranger: i just answered your question. what were you gonna say?
You: In hindsight it was dumb as fuck so I will not say and you cannot make me.
Stranger: that is true.
You: But seriously though Lee Harvey Oswald did nothing wrong.
Stranger: i agree it was the 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧guy🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 on the grassy knoll
You: pfffffffffft people just can't admit that LHO was an amazing shot.
Stranger: so you think he did it himself?
You: I think that there was probably engineering to put him in that position.
Stranger: by whom?
You: CIA and the Mob probably.
You: Jack Ruby (guy who shot LHO) was connected to the Mob.
You: JFK pissed off CIA a lot because he blamed them for Bay of Pigs.

You: The Mob had a lot of casinos in Cuba that was lost because of commies.
You: The Kennedy family had a lot of ties with the mob.
You: Kennedy failed the mob and blamed the cia.
You: Not to mention how a large portion of LHO sympathies towards communist movements were simply ignored during the initial investigation
You: He was labeled a nutjob.
Stranger: sorry was getting tea
You: My guess is they got a guy with commie leanings to kill the president
Stranger: well I gotta tell you, the rest of the world doesn't care that much about it
You: And then use that as justification to invade Cuba.
You: Yeah, but its a good icebreaker on Omegle.
You: :D
You: Fuck "hello"
You: My greeting guarentees that I am not a pervert looking for nudes.
Stranger: so what do you think is the biggest problem in the world right now?
You: Probably the corporations.
Stranger: all of them?
You: Nah fuck it.
You: Capitalism
Stranger: lol
You: lel
Stranger: i mean, what should we have instead of capitalism?
You: A different way of organizing society. Based of producing goods for personal use rather than exchange.
Stranger: so i'd need to grow my own food, build my own house, build my own computer?
You: nah.
Stranger: so how would i get said items without exchanging something for them?
You: You'll work for them.
You: inb4 freee shit
Stranger: will I get some kind of value for my work that I can exchange for goods?
You: There are different ideas for this.
You: I personally like the idea of labor vouchers.
Stranger: inb4 all bad ideas
You: TOO LATE
You: I TYPED FIRST
You: Too slow bud.
Stranger: labour vouchers, like a peice of paper with some agreed upon value?
You: No.
You: LIke say…a piece of paper that you get assigned to you and you only.
You: It has a cash in date
You: So you cannot use it after a certain point.
Stranger: are you an anarchist?
You: It allows for you a certain quantity of goods (energy) for a time period (a year)
You: No.
Stranger: thank the lord jesus christ
You: They have the right idea.
You: THey just smash bins and stuff to get to it.
Stranger: lol no they don't not even close

You: Which many people disagree with in terms of methodology.
You: But who am I to judge right?
You: :^)
You: Their hearts are in the right place I assure you.
Stranger: well, regardless of methodology, they want no government, is that what you want as well?
You: Their definition of a state is very strange.
You: Like the anarchists in Spain for example.
You: They had governing bodies of councils and such.
You: But they don't consider this a state.
Stranger: I'd assume they would be volutary
You: Which I find interesting enough.
You: The councils?
Stranger: yes, voluntary
You: Yeah.
Stranger: so they couldn't send anyone to jail
You: I am pretty sure they had jails.
Stranger: yes because they didn't have an anarchist society
You: Welp tell them that.
Stranger: didn't they all die?
You: The fascists won so I would think so.
Stranger: so you want no government?
You: I think anarchist (politically) means something different than what the word itself means.
You: Otherwise people wouldn't claim otherwise.
Stranger: yes, anarchy normally means chaos, but politically it means no government
You: Anarchists usually say "state" instead of government.
Stranger: yeah I'm not an anarchist and you know what I mean
You: Which I would assume to mean (since I've read some of their books) the heirarchal institutions of nations and such.

You: Not saying you are.
Stranger: so how is a government not heirarchical institutions?
You: It is, but in their eyes an anarchist community is just because of control by the people.
You: They wish to involve everyone in the running of the community so in that sense there is no presence of exploitative heirarchy.
Stranger: do you think that's a good idea?
Stranger: or that it could work?
You: Essentially denying all variables of the real world yes.
You: But honestly no.
Stranger: so that's a no
Stranger: I agree it sounds like a good theory… until you think of how it would actually work out
You: You have a situation where centralized powerful nations with their tanks and guns will no doubt be able to crush whatever "communities" these people try to create.
You: As it has occured throughout history.
You: So a state is necessary if you want to succeed.
Stranger: Agreed. so if you're not an anarchist, what is your philosophy?
You: I'm a socialist.
You: But not the pansy welfare shit.
Stranger: lol what else is there?
You: Well anarchists are socialists too.
Stranger: oh you must be a means-of-production socialist
You: anarchists do want the means of production
You: They just think not having a state is a good idea.
You: Which I disagree on.
You: Respectfully.
You: Sometimes.
Stranger: you think the state should control the means of production
You: I think that workers should control the means of production
You: Do I think that workers should create a state? Represented by workers? Yes.
You: Do I want a giant massive beaurcracy that embodied everything that we hate?
You: No.
You: But it was a nice first try.
Stranger: did no one ever tell you that communism has failed every time it was tried?
You: I know.
You: But you look at the violence and suffering that goes into maintaining the life we have now.
You: and you think to yourself if there is any better future we can strive for.
You: Because there is a lot wrong.
Stranger: how is our lifestyle maintained through violence?
You: It depends on where you live and in some cases are worse than others.
You: But
You: the reason why many first world countries can live so comfortably is because of imperialism.
You: But aside from a vague moral standpoint I myself don't care about it as much as I tell other people I care.
You: But since you are a stranger
You: I will tell you.

You: Essentially I see ordinary people around including my mother and father (god bless them)
You: work there ass off and died with nothing.
You: I see rich folks and politicians commit crimes and corruption and get away with it often.
You: You know it. I know it.
You: They are untouchable.
You: And I'm mad.
You: A lot of the time.
You: And I want things to change. It's basically the fucking everyday story of every damn radical that has ever existed.
You: I want to live long enough, just long enough to see the smiles and the control of the people in power wash away (perferably in their own tears)
You: But
You: Until then
You: I'm chatting on Omegle. :)
Stranger: Ok. I used to think very much like you do. I think those problems need to be fixed but destroying the system will only make things worse
You: How so?
You: Sorry it's a vague question.
Stranger: If we do away with capitalism, there will be mass starvation
You: There is already.
Stranger: worse. starvation in the first world. everyone starving equally
You: You don't know that.
You: We have enough food man.
Stranger: I know capitalism lifts millions of people out of poverty every year
Stranger: yes we do have enough food, thanks to our current system
You: We have the capacity to produce enough food.
You: But
You: A lot of it is simply wasted.
Stranger: yes. that needs to be fixed
You: Ok.
You: But the problems we have now.
You: we have issues that are systemic in nature.
You: How do we solve the issue of corruption without changing the way people view money?
You: How do distribute food properly without changing the way resources are allocated?
You: All of these questions and more..
You: Are unanswered by anyone that I know.

You: And the way I see how supremely fucked everything is, there is not a chance that capitalism can somehow repair its flaws.
You: It's an idea more idealistic to me than when people claim communism is idealistic.
You: Or at least socialism.
You: because communism is a movement to abolish the current state of things.
You: Not a goal.
Stranger: I agree pure capitalism is idealistic, it needs to be regulated otherwise it creates problems
You: Regulations mean not a lot if the material conditions continue to create situations where the powerful can undermine them.
You: Like we have state intervention right?
You: In case banks fail or something.
Stranger: the banks failed because of a lack of regulation
You: But lets say the lobbyists simply lobby the government to have less regulation?
You: We're back to where we started.
You: Whether or not this process goes back and forth for several decades.
You: THe problems never end.
You: You get where I'm coming from here?
Stranger: yes I do, as I said I used to think a lot like you.
You: What restored your faith in now?
Stranger: It's more like I lost faith in radicalism
You: Alright?
You: details?
Stranger: I don't know, at some point I started to realise that we have to try to make what we have better, rather than throwing it all out and starting from scratch
You: I can see that. I don't use my position that everything is fucked to get stoned or something like I know a lot of trashbag leftists do.
Stranger: I also realised that the way things are now is the best it has ever been
Stranger: thats a big gamble to risk throwing away
You: Ok.
You: So from what I see
You: The problems that we have now, are the same as it was 200 years ago.
You: We still have the wars, the asshole top, the disease, the hunger
Stranger: look at life expectancy, child mortality, hunger, crime, war, education over that time. It's all way better
You: but we now have the technology to deal with a lot of it.
Stranger: technology thanks to the system we have
You: But the technology and the prosperity are ruled under the process of the system.
You: If there is a economic collapse.
You: Then you're fucked no matter if you're in a first world country or not.
You: And you really can't perdict these things.
Stranger: true, so let's try not to have a collapse
You: But it won't matter! The wars will be needed for resources, the bubbles will emerge, problems will emerge all around the world as a natural process of capitalism regardless of our efforts to stop it.
You: There is no stability.
You: No end.
You: Under capitalism you have this drive for growth.
Stranger: yeah, life is scary, we need to keep figuring it out as we go
You: This growth feeds people and at the same time it prevents them from being fed.
Stranger: theres no one answer for all time
You: But there is a answer!
You: I don't base my views and my radicality on nothing!

You: Because people who think of something new plan!
You: People have plans for the future!
You: Have you heard of automation?
You: So many jobs in the future are going to be replaced by technology.
You: This is unsustainable under capitalism.
Stranger: yes, we will need to figure out what to do about that
You: The way we see it, the instability and struggle will come to us in one way or another already.
You: Hell the US has troops operating the Ukraine right now.
You: A mere 50 km from the Russian border.
You: Finally when millions of people are out of jobs because of automation what do you think will hapen?
You: The future of first world countries starving as equally as third world countries will be here.
Stranger: We need to do something before it becomes millions
You: Do you think our politicians will do something about it?
You: I'm sorry it is unfair for me to ask you so many rhetorical questions.
You: I'm sure it is bothering you. I am sorry.
Stranger: it's fine
You: We have a plan.
You: means of production man.
You: That's the whole deal.
Stranger: lol. what about universal basic income?
Stranger: brb gotta pee
You: k.
Stranger: back
Stranger: universal basic income tho
You: ubi will only delay the inevitable.
You: Meaning like I said you have the same conditions which will only replicate the issues in different forms.
You: How will the world operate without cheap labor to make goods?
You: You may answer machines
Stranger: i thought that was your answer?
You: But then it will mean that millions of people are out of jobs.
You: How will we solve this?
You: You may answer Ubi
You: But then my question is, if we have machines producing the vast majority of out goods anyways and ubi is a means to which give people access to these goods regardless of whether or not they have a job than how is this any fucking different than communism?

You: But here's the catch
You: Money still exist
You: Markets still exist
You: The people who own the machines and decide what to produce and what to sell still exist.
You: So you still have the inefficiencies and in different cases the resource wars
Stranger: the market decised what is produced and sold, not the people who own the machines
You: markets are their for exchange
You: which means WHATEVER produced and WHATEVER sold.
Stranger: the machine owners can't produce spiky toilet seats because no one will buy them
You: They honestly can.
You: Just look it up on amazon
You: goddamn Musical radios the shape of zucchinis
You: A light-up iBall
You: Bacon scented bandaids
Stranger: all great products at a reasonable price
You: Ok fine hold up let me find something.
You: amazon.com/dp/B019HDSCPU/ref=asc_df_B019HDSCPU5083404/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395009&creativeASIN=B019HDSCPU&linkCode=df0&hvadid=191951420828&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5092148080129130509&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021461&hvtargid=pla-355821411527
You: It's amazon m8.
You: Don't be put off by the long url
Stranger: yeah i already copy pasted that shit
Stranger: it's a good deal m8
You: IT IS LITERALLY
You: A
You: BOX
You: OF
You: NOTHING
You: zip
You: nada
Stranger: isn't it great that we are so prosperous that we can buy such preposterous crap just to amuse ourselves?
You: We have mountains of trash that accumulate of time and I'm sure there is a larger societal problem of vapid and empty consumerism to be dealt with.
You: It's another thing I hate.
Stranger: yeah me too tbh
You: Pointless shit.
You: Or at least stuff that is devoid of any redeemable artistic or social merit.
Stranger: so I don't buy that shit
You: When was the last time that Hollywood produced a triple A movie that wasn't mediocre or shit at best?
You: A cape movie
You: or a cgi shitfest.
You: Yeah don't buy it, but it's here and it affects the people around me.
Stranger: i just the big short. it was great
You: That's besides the point I'm making here.
Stranger: hollywood makes good movies sometimes. a lot of shit, ill give you, but not all
You: WHICH MAKES BE MORE MAD THOSE BASTARDS GOT AWAY WITH IT.

Why are you posting all this shit?

You: *me
Stranger: yeah good movie. I don't understand why the banks can't keep renters in the houses that they forclosed
Stranger: that's shit
You: Well the law protects the rich man and the poor man alike from being homeless on the street, beaten by the police, and stealing for food.
You: I didn't make that cool quote as much as I would like to.
Stranger: anyway m8, gotta go, it's dinner time down under. good talk. don't get too mad, vote, make what we have work better.
You: Alright.
You: Enjoy your food and remember what I said bro.
Stranger: will do cya
Stranger has disconnected.

OP asked a question and I gave him a long ass answer. :^)

do not let them turn you into a strawman, remember Stirner sensei's teachings "Labels label me not"

why would we bother with what those idiots have to say?

empathize with them about how their boss is stupid and a lot of their decisions waste valuable time just to make people miserable on some sort of power-trip.

independent owners come up with the most god awful "marketing" campaigns that waste a fuck ton of time generally make a huge mess and backfire creating more unnecessary drudgery despite warnings from the people that actually have to do the work.

corporate regulations actually force employers to be dickheads with their required policies so this is a really easy go to.

Instead of jumping strait into "fully automated luxury" or Utopian history about gift-economies and farmer-serfs that only worked during harvest season, I pretend to take "everyone must work to eat" as an assumption.

Then you say that without capitalism and the invention of machines we would still be working in fields from sunrise to sunset but because of the industrial revolution we cut the work day to 8 hours.

Then ask them how much of their job could be automated with an app on their phone and why their employer cant just pay them twice to work half as long and maybe check in to manage app a couple times a day.

Once they buy that THEN I start feeding them alternative economics and explain the efficiency that could be acquired with computerized central planning, which was unavailable to the USSR because the obviously weren't ready and tried to force it without the technology and my communism is democratic comrade.

;^) gotem

Please, what is your political leaning? I'm actually curious what kind if mind writes like this. I'm guessing you're one of those so-called radical "centrists"?

Yeah, all the time. Start by pointing out the contradictions of capitalism like the tendency of the rate of profit to fall and go on from there

Yes, but most people I know are 20-something proles from working class backgrounds. Not being a larping faggot who thinks the revolution relies on cosplay in sovietboo gear helps.

i don't try to 'convert' people. religious nuts do that. i talk to them and do it in such a way that doesn't reveal my power level. they often take my points in kind, and it often defuses really bad propaganda..

nah, you just continue with plausible deniability. i think owning up to being a red doesn't help you in the long run, no matter who you're talking to. i have only told one person ever that i'm sympathetic toward communism, but even then i always stress that i'm 'not a communist' and just sympathetic toward it. just saying that alone makes people think "oh so he's not brainwashed 100%, i can still talk him out of it" which is much more tempting for them, since they think they can "out" argue you… but often times, it turns into an opportunity to have a legit discussion.

i've noticed this too. they look at nazi germany with all this skepticism and stress how important it is to look at Hitler with "nuance" and the same is never afforded for the USSR.

This really. In such discussion the best I was able to do was to make a decent (or so I think) impression of an ancap, just carefully avoiding the issue of private property.

OP, there's something called burden of proof.

let it slip to my homies I am socialist. Got roasted. I appreciate their attempt at a discussion though
had to listen to a lot more of this shit. Still havent convinced them that socialism isnt starving 500 billion people

It's almost impossible to talk about people with this; they have to come up with the conclusions on their own, through experience of exploitation.

Earlier today I was trying to explain to some evola and peterson loving autist how capitalism degrades social relations and reduces everything to monetary transactions, and how stock markets are complete madness. I've been slowly redpilling this guy for months, he's just sheltered and mega spooked, he's become more receptive over time. But then this massive subhuman basement dwelling edgelord of an ancap senses my power level and decides to derail my conversation and starts sperging out:

well I'm just market socialist with corporatist leanings, so um its kinda hard to talk to people about what I believe in

...

People who use the word 'leanings' when describing their political philosophy need to off themselves.