I can't fathom how anyone can seriously look at the holodomor conspiracy theory and not see how absurd it is...

I can't fathom how anyone can seriously look at the holodomor conspiracy theory and not see how absurd it is. The theory is such, Stalin after investing a shit ton in increasing food production sabotaged food production to starve Ukraine just to kill his opponents in Ukraine. Nobody that believes this shit can answer why Stalin would destabilize the USSR and risk being deposed, or why in telegraphs Stalin ordered grain back to Ukraine from stockpiles meant for export.

Other urls found in this thread:

eastsidemarxism.wordpress.com/stalins-famine-page/
eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/douglas-tottle-fraud-famine-and-fascism.pdf
web.archive.org/web/20091214102830/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html
web.archive.org/web/20081222111304/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam2.html
web.archive.org/web/20081224212931/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam3.html
web.archive.org/web/20081218174923/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam4.html
web.archive.org/web/20081221013818/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam5.html
robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/more-on-the-fake-holodomor/
espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/famine-of-1932/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
theredstarvanguard.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/on-the-purging-of-the-old-bolsheviks/
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Wow could they be any more transparent?

is there any actual evidence? as in cast-iron documentation or admissions from those in power?

There are archived telegraphs that shows the bureaucracy in confusion and trying to reverse the flow of grain back to the areas suffering food shortages.

Holodomirage was entirely justified. Lazar (Kohen) Kaganovich lead the Jewish people closer to redemption by wiping out historical enemies of the Jews (uKKKrainians).

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I'm reading Rosa's "The Russian Revolution" and she basically already predicts how Lenin's land policy was creating conditions that would lead to major conflict with the peasantry, especially in Ukraine. I was never really unironically on board with the "kill all kulaks" meme since I know the term kulak was essentially used to mean any peasant that resisted collectivization, but after hearing a better class analysis of the situation I'm more sympathetic to the Soviet government.

After the revolution Bolshevik land policy towards the peasants was basically a free for all, they just let them jump on the noble estates and absentee landlords and carve them up as they saw fit. They basically turned a bunch of dirt farming rural proles into a huge mass of petty porkies.

I can now say without a shred of irony, the kulaks deserved it.

HOLODOMOR
STALIN IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1932-1933
I am famine man
7-10 MILLION INNOCENT VICTIMES

Holodomor cannot be considered a genocide. If it was, then Stalin wouldn't just target Eastern Ukraine. It happened because of shitty weather that was inherent to the region, and the conditions were somewhat exacerbated by forced collectivization, at least after the actual kulaks were rightfully liquidated, and Stalin considered anybody who resisted his policies as a kulak, therefore leading to many more preventable deaths. He also restricted movement into the cities when peasants went to search for food, which was really fucking stupid. But in the long run, ironically, it had a great outcome for the peasants and the agricultural sector of the economy. After the last major Soviet famine in 1947, the ever-occuring famines ceased to be as a result of a more orderly and efficient allocation of resources. I just wish that collectivization was done from the bottom-up by the peasants themselves though.

Why? It would have put pressure on those places which also suffered via the weather.

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For real though, Stalin dindu nuffin and Ukrainian football fans are known for making monkey chants at black players at international matches so they prolly deserved it anyways.

My sides. Someone give me a pic of an Ukrainian neo-nazi to shop this on.

LOL Don't Holla Forumsacks vehemently deny that the Nazis had any ill will towards other white Europeans like Slavic and Mediterranean people? When you tell them that Hitler hated eastern Europeans like he hated Jews they'll usually dismiss it as Zionist historical revisionism and say that he saw all whites as brothers no matter if Germanic, Celtic, Latin or Slavic.

Why do people go out of their way to defend this

It's not like the Holodomor is the only thing that would make Stalin a shitty, repressive, murderous human being

So when are they going to blame Chernobyl on Brezhnev as a evil communist plot to kill Ukrainians, from before they even broke grown on building it?

Simply put because it's not true and allowing got falsehoods to pass without opposition makes anti-communist/anti-leftist work go ahead much easier.

Stalin did nothing wrong.

Look around - communist alredy minority.

But the whole holodomor theory is stupid as they believe Stalin intended the famine after Stalin sent tractors to Ukraine to increase food production. When faced with these idiots, I always ask what they think Stalin's motives would be and they don't give one other then Stalin being a baby eating monster.

I think it's more embarrassing that Soviet agricultural incompetence killed all those hohols as opposed to Soviets intentionally killing all those hohols tbh

I don't usually support gulags but I would make an exception for tankies

Yep. Kulaks slaughtered around 100 million of their own livestock rather than collectivise and the famine affected Kazakhstan per capita more than Ukraine. Like you said, it's a fascist lie cooked up by Goebbels.

I don't even know what is satire and what is genuine tankism anymore, but Stalin literally ordered to purge local party leaders who gave the grain meant for exportation to starving families.
The famine which killed one out of three Khazakh happened in 1932. At the time relief was given to Ukraine who also suffered from the bad year.

However, past November 1932, Moscow started to demand more and more of the grain - including seeds - and accused the Ukrainian Communist Party of being "nationalist" for protecting the seeds, even though without seeds there wouldn't be anymore harvesting at all

If the holocaust really happened why was there a swimming pool at auschwitz?

What part of 5 year plan don't you comprehend? The export of grains was planned years before the famine and the plan specifically called for production to grow enough to compensate for exports.

HOLODOMOR IS FAKE NEWS

HOLODOMOR DEBUNKED

eastsidemarxism.wordpress.com/stalins-famine-page/

eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/douglas-tottle-fraud-famine-and-fascism.pdf

web.archive.org/web/20091214102830/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html

web.archive.org/web/20081222111304/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam2.html

web.archive.org/web/20081224212931/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam3.html

web.archive.org/web/20081218174923/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam4.html

web.archive.org/web/20081221013818/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam5.html

robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/more-on-the-fake-holodomor/

espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/famine-of-1932/

That looks like some credible sources
Allow me to give my own
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor


Are you a liberal trying to make an argument against planned economy ?


But yeah surely it was de ebil kulaks who ordered the Ukrainians farmers to kill their own lifestock
Holomodor denial is ideology as its finest, and you aren't even aware of it.

I mean is very telling that the fascist Euromaidan goverment is obssessed with this issue

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The goverment seized the seeds because the kulaks were hording them going back to when Lenin was alive. Records show at first the party didn't believe the famine was due to nature but was a kulak plot to restart the civil-war.

Either way, it was fucking stupid. Without seeds you literally can't have another harvest.

The kulaks were hording so why blame what the state reclamation yet not what the kulaks were hording?

Are you kidding me? It's the defence of the actions of 20th c. Communists which is giving Communism a bad name. Defending it just shows you as a reprehensible man. I'm all for the truth, but it's time to stop defending them and find what went wrong, and how it can be improved with satisfactory answers.

Anti-leftist work nowadays looks more like "this guy is defending a genocidal maniac" rather than "stalin killed people".

The cause of the famine is easy for historians that actually care to do research. The first 5 year plan called for using exports of agricultural goods to raise the hard currency needed to import machinery for industrialization. To raise outputs the 5 year plan called for collectivization of farms to get economy of scale especially for the tractors being produced for the sector. The kulaks revolted, horded and sabotaged along with nature providing a poor growing season.

Filthy natives standing in the way of progress!

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Are you kidding? So even if major claims made against 20th century communists aren't true you're apparently a terrible person for pointing that out?

Moralism is cancer and any Marxist that argues from purely moral feelings or bases their praxis simply on the moral feelings of the majority isn't even Marxist in the first place.

Fuck off, retard. If you keep capitulating you get to the point where fascists and other reactionary retards will get to the point where they start screaming that the minimum wage can only lead to gulag. You have to be a special type of autist if you think the topic of 20th century communism isn't gonna come up when you start talking about anti-capitalism. You have to be a helmet-wearing autist to believe that you'll have anyone's attention after saying

Oh thank God, someone bothered to provide sources.
Uh oh.

Also all the material in the PLP and Espresso Stalinist links are in the first link.

That East Side Marxism has a really sweet header tho.

This. Horseshoe theory is real.

Whether you like him or not the sources he quotes are all widely renown and respected academic sources

So the Aryan Übermenschen guards could maintain the chiseled physiques needed to cow the prisoners into submission, obviously.

Why didn't the Soviet state just offer "kulaks" goods of equal value to the grain they demanded from the "kulaks"?

"You cannot do anything without rousing the masses to action. A plenary meeting of the Soviet must be called to decide on mass searches in Petrograd and the goods stations. To carry out these searches, each factory and company must form contingents, not on a voluntary basis: it must be the duty of everyone to take part in these searches under the threat of being deprived of his bread card. We can't expect to get anywhere unless we resort to terrorism: speculators must be shot on the spot. Moreover, bandits must be dealt with just as resolutely: they must be shot on the spot."

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Who said anything about repaying? They didn't grow that grain in the first place. Kulaks don't hoard just their grain, they hoard that of multiple households or even an entire village's.

And the Cheka's (and by extension Stalin's) definition of "kulak" was "whichever farmer didn't pay off the Cheka squad investigating their village with home-brewed vodka"

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Go fuck yourself. Stalin played an integral role in the first world-historic socialist revolution and allowing Nazi/imperial propaganda to slander a man who listened to the needs of the laboring masses and confided in comrades to do the best he could for the people of the USSR is to DENOUNCE socialism and all it meant for those who dared to break their chains.

Stalin's theoretical contributions to Marxism-Leninism will never be forgotten. Stalin's aid to other socialist revolutions facing imperial assault will never be forgotten.

Did the USSR make mistakes under his leadership? Yes. Of course. He failed to see the importance of opposing Zionism and wasn't a visionary on LGBTQ+ issues (though this could hardly be expected), and OF COURSE there were some fucking difficulties in undertaking one of the greatest socio-economic transformations of all time.

But I will not denounce one of our greatest comrades to allow fucking liberals to infiltrate leftist circles. Honestly go fuck yourself. Completely fucking inane.

yeah the holodomor was clearly typhus and the great leap forward was a graet success. the little green polite men were fired upon by the MH17 which deeply offended the autonomous robot people of Bukistania who sent their bravest warrior Dr Bukenstien to fire a single BUK arrow into the evil MH17 and save Russia forever. Russian scientiests can show that pieces of the evil exploding MH17 which was full of child molestors are the materials which killed nemstov and jesus.

neither will the practical ones, unfortunately

Saved.

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WHOOPS just accidentally killed all the Old Bolsheviks

WHOOPS just accidentally killed all my competent generals

WHOOPS just accidentally caused mass starvation and refused to accept outside help when it became clear what a mess it had become

WHOOPS just accidentally betrayed the revolution in Catalonia to protect liberals and ended up losing anyways

WHOOPS just accidentally had some Wehrmacht defectors shot when they tried to warn of an impending invasion by Nazi Germany

That people worship a man with such a horrible track record is truly amazing.

saved :^)

Kulaks were the remanence of the NEP men, people that profited under the NEP to a point they owned means of production.

these old soviet anime are fucking crazy

It's a clear allusion to the holocaust meant to link communism with Nazism at least in the "they're both just as evil!" Sense. It's better not to concede this ground in my opinion.

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ITT

ITP

Holodomor has always been a nazi myth. It's not about linking nazism will communism its about obfuscating the crimes of nazism and providing nazi collaborators in eastern europe with an easy out when confronted. It's nazi whataboutism at its finest. Same with Dresden.

No, just the Trotskyite conspirators and the ones who wanted to restore capitalism.
theredstarvanguard.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/on-the-purging-of-the-old-bolsheviks/

While many were arrested, they were eventually rehabilitated. Only about 7% of the officer corps was actually executed.

There was never enough food in Russia to feed the entire population, which is why there was a famine every 2-3 years and which is why Stalin started the collectivization of agriculture. Not collectivizing would've been a fatal mistake for the Soviet Union.

Yet the Soviet Union was the only nation that sent aid to Spain. Meanwhile the British blockaded the Spanish fleet in the Mediterranean to allow Franco to land in Seville.

The Germans launched a massive counterintelligence campaign to deceive the Soviet high command into thinking they were preparing to attack the British and that the buildup in the east was for Greece and Yugoslavia. Stalin dismissed early warning reports because he wanted to prevent any incidents at the German border from escalating into a provocation of war.

AYOOO
HOL UP
HOLD UP
I SAY HOLD UP
SO YOU BE SAYIN'
YOU BE SAYIN'
THAT WE
WE
WE WUZ SOCIALISTS AND SHIT


Ukraine could sustain all of Europe population. It's one of the most fertile lands in the world.
No, he started it because that's typical communist agenda. And since he did it in an authoritarian fashion, there was an heavy resistance to it, which resulted in even less yields than serfdom, which is fucking inefficient for an agricultural system.

*commie whataboutism

It's not necessarily justifiable, but it's not like the whole thing is a wash because of it. It's dumb to sit with liberals and be their pet gommie and act like the entire of the Soviet Union was a waste of time. honestly can't help but imagine these are the people that would go "But Castro was mean to gay peoples. :,{) As if everything was great, and that was just totally out of place. These places weren't perfect, but it's not like they had the perfect conditions and needlessly fucked it.

The industrial workers needed grain, so it was have have workers that had no responsibility to producing food starve and which were industrializing the USSR or starve farmers that were responsible for food production and were unskilled thus more expendable.

He should have killed off the ukranians, look at what they're like now after being "liberated".

I always thought it was just bad government.

brown fascists: muh holocaust didn't happen, hitler was a good boy he dindu nuffin.
red fascists: muh holodomor didn't happen, stalin was a good boy he dindu nuffin.
spot the difference, kids.

Except in the long run the Ukrainian population increased under Stalin, so if Stalin was trying to kill all of the Ukrainians he was being counter-productive about it.

Stalin wasn't trying to kill all Ukrainians, rather to purge the Communist Party of Ukraine, to kill nationalist, to kill Kulaks, real or imaginary, and to impose loyalty.
He ruled a good 30 years, so it's normal. Also, a baby boom almost always happens after a period of population shirking.
Stalin was far from logical. At the end of his life, he tried to kill his lifelong supporter Beria.

That is not how the Ukrainian goverment sees it, to them Stalin's plan for Ukraine was exactly the same as Hitler's plan for the Jews.


Ukraine's population growth was the highest under the USSR.

What is the baby boom I just talked about ?
What is the demographic transition ? Also the USSR lasted 70 years you dumbass
And ? What has it to do with your denial ?
At any rate, it's highly possible that he changed his mind or simply realised even the Russian branch of the party wouldn't support a policy like this continued, or that it would have been to hard to fully conceal it.

The Ukraine baby boom happened because of the industrial infrastructure the 5 year plans built. So before there was even a single death from the famine, Stalin set in motion what would cause Ukraine's population to boom.

Again : and ? How does that change the overwhelming evidence - NKVD archives, reports, books, and so on, pointing to the existence of the Holomodor ?
As I said, Stalin wasn't exactly rational.

The archives only show there was a famine and one that spread all the way to the Urals where even workers at Magnitogorsk were at near starvation rations.

Also they show that grain had been sold.

Before there was a famine, see there is a thing called logistics in that it takes time, planning and preparations to do large exports.