Camelot

The real American sniper.

They had no reason to kill him. He was a hawk and strongly supported their agenda.

what you mean?
rfk seemed like a cool dude who didn't afraid of anything

They could have bombed Cuba and killed Castro in minutes, but the whole point of wanting to retake Cuba in the eyes of American elates was getting back what they considered stolen from them which was land, fruit farms and offshore oil platforms, they didn't want any of their precious valuables hurt or purposefully destroyed by the opposition so they had to try more stealthy and insurgent attempts at killing him which they were awful at in this case.

Kennedy wasn't a savior, but he did oppose them on this in part because he was paranoid about the militarys power over the presidency ( he forced his staff to watch the movie in pic related because it was about an attempt by the military to kill the president.) and because he thought wars would tarnish his image as a president who said he would seek peaceful means above war in many speeches throughout his primary and general election. He thought war with Cuba was too close to home and too easy to spin against him, which is why by contrast he had almost no problem with a war in Vietnam as he assumed it wouldn't get big enough to matter and he could always disavow what happens there as it's half a world away.

There's no way the mob killed Kennedy it would've been too bad for business.

My personal theory is that the CIA and the mob worked together to have him whacked. It's plausible that the mob carried out the killing while the CIA gave them the resources to do it and covered their tracks afterwards.

They had a common enemy in Kennedy, since after the Bay of Pigs failed he blamed the CIA for faulty intelligence, and his administration was quite hostile to them afterwards. In addition the CIA was full of anti communist hardliners who were frothing at the mouth to squash Cuba, and when Kennedy promised not to invade after the missile crisis they were extremely angered. The mafia meanwhile also had major interests in Cuba which they were counting on Kennedy to protect. I don't doubt that one of the things they were expecting in return for helping him become president was the toppling of Castro's regime and the reestablishment of Mafia operations in Cuba. When Kennedy failed to do this, he turned on them, engaging in his famous crackdown on organized crime.

The details point to a collaboration between the two, since Lee Harvey Oswald was a known communist sympathizer, and his killer Jack Ruby, was a cop known to be in the Mob's pocket, and also terminally ill. The congressional panel that investigated the assassination was headed by several ex-CIA men and other officials with ties to the agency, unsurprisingly, despite Oswald's communist leanings, he was declared a "lone nut", which is especially strange given the anti-communist hysteria of the time. You would think that this would be pinned on the Red Menace, and yet it's simply dismissed as insanity. It's likely that the original plan was for the Mob and CIA to have Kennedy whacked by somebody with communist ties, and then to pin it on Cuba as a cassis belli for an invasion. The mob would get their casinos back, the CIA would eliminate their ideological enemies, everybody wins. Why this latter part of the plan was never brought about I don't know, it's possible that the CIA deemed the situation too volatile after the Soviets had guaranteed Cuban independence.

Historically speaking the CIA fucked up a lot, which makes me wonder at times if it's like that South Park episode where Bush's staff invented the "Bush did 9/11" conspiracy theory to convince the public of the government's omnipotence

I like your theory a lot. I do wonder what Oswald would say or how the trial would have gone is Ruby never killed him.

Not plausible at all. Think about it for a second why would the CIA need the mob's help? It sounds very romantic but the truth is less interesting than that.

Oswald acted alone it's the truth and I think something we as leftist need to remember is that high ranking officials including presidents are easy to take out, real fucking easy. The President is one man, not a god and if a lone nut wants to shoot him it won't be difficult. Anarchists were responsible for the assassinations of Franz Ferdinand and William McKinley.

The funny thing about the USSR China split is that it happened somewhat related to the severity of the US intelligence Operation Phoenix in Vietnam and how it was actually successful for a while against the north and their allies in the south. The pressure of the operation made China see Vietnam as a lost cause, but the Soviet Union liked Ho Chi Minh and some of the resources he could trade to Russia at the expense of the United States and thought Vietnam could still be a success. China also wanted Vietnam to be a client state like North Korea is to them, a buffer zone between them and whatever the west thinks it's doing in east Asia, but the Vietnamese obviously wanted real independence and only the Soviet Union was offering that to them. Earlier in history the Soviets wanted to keep the Chinese from having nuclear technology and despite being allies with them they were weary about Chinese loyalty to communist causes. As far as I know US intelligence agencies were aware of most of this, which was why Nixon was able to scramble together talks with the Chinese so quickly after they had officially fallen out.

General MacArthur at the start of the Korean war told Truman he believed China should be the real target of war and of "communist containment" and that key cities should be nuked in advance of them landing in both wars, he wanted to hit them in their population centers, because he guessed correctly that this would be China's main resource in a war against the west. He kept insisting they should do this but Truman said no, until eventually he was fired. I don't know much about intelligence agencies involvement in the Korean war aside from the allegations that they did biological and nuclear radiation tests on our own soldiers during it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson

I said this in another thread this week but I'll state it again, the real problem with the US military or it's affiliated intelligence agencies isn't that they're incompetent or that they cant get these things done. It's often they don't want to get these things done and that their private aims are not the same as their public aims. In the case of the Korean war Truman was weak politically and lacked military experience and honestly thought it was going to be a cake walk, most of the military knew this was a dumb plan but they thought they could convince him into adopting a grander war strategy that never materialized. Truman didn't want to pull the world into world war 3 by attacking China first, but he almost did anyway.

The funny thing about the "collapse" of the USSR is that economically at the time it was supposedly collapsing it was only doing slightly worse than it had been under it's greatest period of growth. I honestly think most soviet leaders had the intention of democratizing the state but leaving most of the economic structures in place, but Yeltsin and American intervention stopped that from happening and instead we got neoliberalism and kleptocrats. You cant really know something is happening that didn't really happen until years later when unbridled capitalism happened to the country. Granted they did collapse geopolitically in the sense that their buffer zone eastern block states left and so did some of the southern parts of Russia. I guess that part was a genuine failure on the intelligence agencies in not predicting that, one of the reasons it might have been hard to predict was the US intelligence agencies had just had to do an everything but the Kitchen sink approach in sabotaging the USSR's efforts in Afghanistan and they just barely pulled that off, by creating the worst allies in the history of allies, but that's a tale we all know by now.

Anarkiddies fucking everything up once again

The Black Hand were Bosnian Serb nationalists.

He would have poster here you know?

I like how in politics being in your 40s is "young". There's this foolish fucking belief that somebody in thier 20s is incapable of being a leader, and it's complete bullshit. Under communism we will look towards those who are still truly young for guidance, and intellect.

I feel kinda bad for him ya know? When he went to the USSR it was already run by revisionists and when he came home the US, and the US South, especially was full of reactionary retards. There was insane pressure to conform too I can't imagine what it was like for the 60s version of a robot who defected to the USSR during McCarthyism.

Then when he gets home the best he can do is some shit job at the Texas School Book depository. He grew up poor with a single-mother, I feel for him, maybe in the end he was just trying to make his momma proud.

This but unironically. The guy probably didn't even shoot a fucking bullet. He's only fault was to be a lonley communist in the wrong country. We will avenge him, like we will avenge him

t. 14 year old

Young people are good for fucking and fighting and that is about it.

What have you done to me Holla Forums?

We haven't aren't even finished with you, young smashie.

In another; 'What are the evils of fascism compared to communism?'

When World War II did arrive, the future president's father, Joe P Kennedy, strongly opposed going into battle with Germany and made several missteps that severely damaged his political career.
He adopted a defeatist, anti-war stance and tried to arrange a meeting with Adolf Hitler without the approval of the Department of State.
The reasons for this are unclear - some speculate he was eager to do anything to avoid war because he feared that American capitalism - which he profited from - would not survive the country’s entry into the conflict.
In his role as US ambassador to Britain he also opposed providing the UK with military and economic aid.
He said in an interview 'Democracy is finished in England. It may be here [in the US].

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329556/How-JFK-secretly-ADMIRED-Hitler-Explosive-book-reveals-Presidents-praise-Nazis-travelled-Germany-Second-World-War.html

Is it weird if I don't like Kennedy but I have unreasonable amounts of sympathy for Richard Nixon?
Somehow Nixon just seems to be such a ridiculously human figure that he becomes impossible to really dislike, even when being a massive Dick (Nixon.)

Care to explain, you rosa killer

He wasn't much different from Kennedy really. The only good thing about him is that he triggers boomers something awful.

Styxhexxenhammer666 already cracked the case when it comes to JFK, end of discussion, its over, he solved the whole thing.

I still can't believe it was Anita and her band of feminist jews the whole time.

Didn't Nixon grow up poor? I also remember in the movie Frost-Nixon that his brothers died from tuberculosis or something?

LBJ I also grew up poor. My personal theory is that after Kennedy got cut down they were careful not to elect a president who would lord his wealth in from of the proles for a while? For a while, it seemed like strictly political agents of the bourgeois were elected president instead of super-rich capitalists proper.

Yeah, but is dealing with the mob any different from dealing with legal porkies?

I would

Nixon and LBJ were both idiots that rich people paid to fool dumb people from their regions into buying into their broader political schemes. In Nixon's case it was Prescott Bush and in LBJ's case it was rich people from Texas and other southern states. Their modern day equivalent would be someone like John Boehner. Douse retards with money and hope they don't become self aware like Willie Stark.

youtube.com/watch?v=zgJC4Pu_tbo

Ya but conspiring with the mob was one of the least bad things about his presidency, he did a surprising amount of warmongering in just 3 short years.

I have to say though legal porkies are terrible and enable gangsters, but people watch too many mobster movies and end up respecting these guys too much– organized crime traffics prostitutes, sex slaves, and even chattel slaves when they get the chance.

The American mafia ran Cuba as their own personal thiefdom prior to the revolution.

...

He was an idiot it is only through 1980's meme magic that he was turned into some kind of Machiavellian thinker. Mostly through terrible biographies written by sycophants of his that wanted to help "revive" his public image, they knew they couldn't shake the conman and shady aspects of his personality, so they tried to spin it as masterful political maneuvers, when in reality he had very little idea what he was doing most of the time and was at the whim of experts around him on a near constant basis similar to the way Trump is, but not quite that level of out of being out of his depth.

...

He was the architect of détente and in that respect, the opening of China's economy to the US gave its collapsing economy decades of fresh life. The Sino-American political alliance itself, while terrible, actually showed he was quite a skilled statesmen.

He managed the collapse of the gold-backed dollar well-enough which was an enormous crisis of world capitalism, that threatened to turn into the greatest crisis ever if handled improperly. He eventually got the US out of Vietnam, but it was preluded by ramping up the bloodshed prior to withdrawal.

I think he was an imperialist and an all-round evil guy but you can't say he wasn't competent most of the time.

I am having a very difficult time believing this narrative. Nixon was a career politician who had held federal offices since just after the Second World War. He was not some billionaire clown shoe like Trump who decided to run for President on a lark. Dude had been playing the game for a long time.

What genius advisors did he have? Kissinger maybe. The rest were toadies like Gerald Ford.

I hate to break this to you user, but right wingers didn't become sycophantic cock suckers to power only after the minute you were born, things have been this way for a while. Nixon's terrible decisions were memed into intellectual Machiavellian chess mastery by biographers. Reagan who was besieged by scandal and failure constantly is now somehow the savior of the free market and his presidency was supposedly a hall mark of bipartisanship despite constant scandals against him not just by Dem's but also by his own party. There are people today who are trying to reconstitute the failure of the Dubya years into a halcyon presidency of stability and economic growth.

A few years before he was president he criticized Kennedy heavily for even insinuating peace between us and any communist country was a possibility. Nixon fully intended his "madman" policy of scaring the communists into submission would succeed in shying them away from armed conflict but he also considered by his own admission preemptive nuclear strikes against China and Russia in the case of China few weeks before their treaty in part because military advisors of his considered it good policy.

Detente was mostly done on the Russians behest America was more than willing to go to nuclear war. It's only by historical happenstance that this didn't happen. There was a time during the Kennedy presidency when US generals had a serious conversation with him about the possibility of Nuclear war with Russia, Kennedy described the conversation as them gleefully stating that a loss of a few hundred thousand or a few million wouldn't outweigh the strategic possibilities they would gain. The craziness of this conversation and some of the militarys own public memos was the basis of the movie Dr. Strangelove. As I alluded to in this post, The only reason this didn't happen was Kennedy feared the military and their increasing power over the executive branch. Nixon however took them at their word most of the time and would indulge basically any request or excess they asked for.

I said he is not completely on the level of Trump he had some experience the presidency was not his first political rodeo, but by his staff and most other peoples admission, Nixon's opinion was the opinion of who ever he considered the smartest in the room. He was also extremely over emotional and paranoid, which is how by self fulling prophecy he brought the Watergate scandal on himself.

This also why he was willing to cave to some leftwing positions and why Chomsky considers him the last left leaning president in jest. Nixon would often do things on a whim thinking this would endear the public to him and make people think he could cross party lines and be seen as a "thinker." This might actually be his best attribute in that the American people do like politicians that break script and just try random shit to see if it works. People were hoping Trump might be that but he is too enamored with money and the people around him keep his impulses in check.

JFK out red-baited Nixon at the 1960 debates as Nixon himself acknowledged in his memoirs: "Kennedy conveyed the image — to 60 million people — that he was tougher on Castro and communism than I was."

It has been said about him that unlike many politicians in Washington who played up anti-communist rhetoric for the yokels that JFK truly believed there was not only a communist threat, but a communist conspiracy to destroy the US.

Even in his June 10th Speech calling for peace with the Soviet Union he managed to work in this little jewel:

It's not like that's the only example of this belief as he said in 1960:

Another quote beloved by conspiracy theorists goes like this:
But its pretty clear he wasn't talking about the mil-industrial complex or secret societies there but he was in fact talking about communism. He was more then willing to nuke the world when it came to protecting America's turf and the capitalist world–it almost happened in 1962.

None of this is out of character for Kennedy who as I pointed out in another post, admired Hitler as a young man. Joe Kennedy was a personal friend of Kennedy and the Kennedies never opposed McCarthyism because they agreed with most of it.

Kennedy started Vietnam and was something of an engineer to both the Tibet rebellion in China and the Sino-Indian border wars in the early sixties. He only agreed to work with Khrushchev because it was clear the US needed to work out some deal with the Soviets to keep them from undermining the US-UK nuclear monopoly they needed to scare poor countries. Even then he was always pushing Khrushchev from his right when Khrushchev would signal to him that he needed more time–but Soviet support and missiles in Cuba was all the license he needed to blow up the world. The US thought of the Western hemisphere as being America's exclusive property and Cuba's break-away and Khrushchev's attempt to use it to break into Latin America nearly red-lined what had been a previously successful partnership.

I think if Kennedy was killed by anyone it was by supporters of US-Soviet détente inside the establishment. Or, alternatively, the KGB did the assassination with the explicit consent of some pro-Soviet elements in the establishment. That's the only way that could happen.

But I don't believe any faction was responsible for it–LHO was just a disaffected prole who disliked a president that most rationally thinking leftists also hated.

JFK was ardently anti-communist of that there is no doubt but he feared his own government in concern of his own and his brother's safety and he was smart enough to know the other branches of government were trying to obtain leverage and power over him.

Similar concerns were expressed by previous presidents most notably Eisenhower and FDR (who the military and the rich actually did try to kill in a coup.) None of these men are angels and I obviously don't care for them on a personal level, but being against communists doesn't mean all their enemies weren't the same as some of ours. In this case the upper echelons of the US military and intelligence agencies.

Vietnam was something that started before Kennedy but it was certainly something he escalated and unlike some historians I believe his response and most of his presidency would look a lot like the LBJ years did end up looking. In fact that is why I most doubt LBJ's involvement in any actions against Kennedy because most of his presidency was a bald aping of things Kennedy wanted to do or was already doing in the good and the bad.

I don't doubt what you say because I think Kennedy was some kind of secret peacnik, I mean I hope we're both here on leftypol because we doubt shit like that but from my reading on the US military their wants are almost never for more peaceful measures or detente, it always for more war and in the case that we're already in a war it's for more aggressive war with a larger expansion of conflict against the "enemy." The kind that Nixon did against Vietnam and neighboring countries in his first few years as president after running on a partial platform of ending the war.

So, just curious why do you think they would have killed him when he was doing everything they wanted? More power?

The more I read about Oswald the more I think that's he's actually more interesting then any conspiracy. But I've never ruled out the possibility that JFK was whacked because I at least have some idea of how bad the American ruling class is based on knowing history.

LBJ was trapped into escalating American involvement in Vietnam because not doing so would've been considered a betrayal of JFK by the American public (who at the time of JFK's death and for a few years after overall supported the war in Vietnam, with IIRC a majority saying the US wasn't doing enough to support South Vietnam)

Kennedy ended the oil depletion allowance and he antagonized members of intelligence agencies who were themselves oil tycoons and bankers most notably Allen Dulles who he ended up firing over the bay of pigs. Similar to today the deep state represents one faction and the executive represents another. They killed him because they felt disrespected and they wanted to show their power over his.

He also cut the income-tax on the top 1% from 91% cut it down to 70%. He was also a free-trader even if ending the oil depletion allowance hurt oil companies in some ways they also benefited from other things that Kennedy did although this wouldn't prove that he wasn't murdered of course.

It's possible. I think Posner had a fairly logical point on the Kennedy assassination:

Savodnik similarly writes:

Now I have considered the possibility that Oswald didn't do it but was merely the "patsy" as he himself said. But think about it–if he was selected to be the fall guy for an operation like that, why the hell would you choose the guy who says "I'm the fall guy fam lmao" you want someone whose gonna keep their mouth shut or kill themselves preferably.

Jack Ruby (Oswald's assassin) makes a statement to reporters after he has been permitted a new trial. He says :
Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts, of what occurred, my motives. The people had , that had so much to gain and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world.

Reporter : Are these people in very high positions Jack ??

Jack : Yes.

……

"Gentlemen, I want to tell the truth, but I cannot tell it here. If you want a fair shake out of me, you have to take me to Washington"

"When I mentioned about Adlai Stevenson, if he was vice president there would never have been an assassination of our beloved President Kennedy " Asked if he would explain it again Ruby continued "Well the answer is the man in office now" - that man was Lyndon Johnson.
Watch the video clip (Windows media) Click here.

Ruby fearing for his life, and the life of his family told the Warren commission…."Well, you won't see me again. I tell you that a whole new form of government is going to take over the country, and I know I won't live to see you another time"

….

"you must believe me that I know what is taking place, so please with all my heart, you must believe me, because I am counting on you to save this country a lot of blood-shed. As soon as you get out you must read Texan looks at Lyndon (A Texan Looks at Lyndon by J. Evetts Haley) , and it may open your eyes to a lot of things. This man is a Nazi in the worst order."
Further on in this letter Ruby writes: … isn't it strange that Oswald who hasn't worked a lick most of his life, should be fortunate enough to get a job at the Book Building two weeks before the president himself didn't know as to when he was to visit Dallas, now where would a jerk like Oswald get the information that the president was coming to Dallas? Only one person could have had that information, and that man was Johnson who knew weeks in advance as to what was going to happen, because he is the one who was going to arrange the trip for the president, this had been planned long before the president himself knew about, so you can figure that one out. The only one who gained by the shooting of the president was Johnson, and he was in a car in the rear and safe when the shooting took place. What would the Russians, Castro or anyone else have to gain by eliminating the president? If Johnson was so heartbroken over Kennedy, why didn't he do something for Robert Kennedy? All he did was snub him.

jfkmurdersolved.com/ruby.htm

Interesting. I will admit that Ruby's mysterious death is the biggest hole in the whole story. Although he did die four years later.

To quote Posner again he doesn't think Ruby was part of a conspiracy:

If he knew killing Oswald was part of a "Nazi" conspiracy why carry it out? Why did he talk afterwards? Remorse?

didn't lbj and the kennedies dislike each other intensely

Yes

...

It makes sense
Even though he was 🍀🍀🍀irish🍀🍀🍀 his family was very rich and his father did business with the nazis
Mostly because the kennedys were still considered new money amongst the elite Boston WASPs and he wanted any route for bucks.

Check out this clip of /ourguy/ in action in the fight against fascism.
youtube.com/watch?v=Ggu6N9rE1ng

LBJ especially hated RFK. He hated him so hard that he made a law that a president can't appoint family to shit.

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Pure coincidence, boyo.🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

I can't decide which of the two is the stupider board. Holla Forums is nothing but disappointment.
How can I have faith in you people to recognize political shills COUGHtankiesCOUGH if you cant even detect a run-of-the-mill "buy my product" shill?
What the fuck are you doing allowing this board owner?
And before you say it, it doesn't matter if its all true or half true, a shill is a shill is a shill goddammit

Except the Dark Side of Camelot came out almost 20 years ago and Seymour Hersh doesn't need shills at this point in his life Ever heard of the Sy Hersh award? The guy was the Glenn Grennwald of his day and DSOC was a best seller as are most books on the Kennedy's they pretty much sell themselves if you live in America.

Or looking at it another way he's like the sniper with cross-hairs on the target on the phone with the boss, waiting for the "weapons free" command.

What's more improbable that both of these men would make these crazy out of character life altering(and ending) decisions on a whim as a sole actor, days apart from each other no less, or that one or both of them were involved with some kind of co-conspirator?

My favorite suspicious coincidence is the karate chopped man:

There has been a significant number of people who have died who did appear to have important information about the case. This includes several journalists investigating the murder. On 24th November, 1963, Bill Hunter of the Long Beach Press Telegram and Jim Koethe of the Dallas Times Herald interviewed George Senator. Also there was the attorney Tom Howard. Earlier that day Senator and Howard had both visited Jack Ruby in jail. That evening Senator arranged for Koethe, Hunter and Howard to search Ruby's apartment.

It is not known what the journalists found but on 23rd April 1964, Hunter was shot dead by Creighton Wiggins, a policeman in the pressroom of a Long Beach police station. Wiggins initially claimed that his gun fired when he dropped it and tried to pick it up. In court this was discovered that this was impossible and it was decided that Hunter had been murdered. Wiggins finally admitted he was playing a game of quick draw with his fellow officer. The other officer, Errol F. Greenleaf, testified he had his back turned when the shooting took place. In January 1965, both were convicted and sentenced to three years probation.

Jim Koethe decided to write a book about the assassination of Kennedy. However, he died on 21st September, 1964. It seems that a man broke into his Dallas apartment and killed him by a karate chop to the throat.

t. someone who knows nothing about lee oswald or jack ruby

aw shit now ninjas are involved how deep does the rabbit hole go

I would say the fact that the CIA, mob, media etc… didn't make such a huge deal about LHO having communist ties is due to two reasons:
1: The 2nd great red scare was pretty much over, there was still hatred for communists, obv, but the mccarthyism scare, where communists were persecuted and hunted was essentially over
2: If there had been a large deal made about his having ties to the CPUSA CPSU etc, there would have public outrage, lynchings, mobs, masses clamouring for war. When america's people call for war, it happens, unfortunately. He would have been viewed as a Cuban/KGB/Chinese spy sent to kill kennedy, and only would have led to bloodshed, and the world stage was already unstable enough

last bumps to counter spam 1/11

BUMP

Also, do we have an archive? If not, I am going to start storing quality threads on a blog.

8archive.moe has been fugged since 2015

If you're interested cobbling together a full-blown replacement for it (even just for Holla Forums, you might want to read up and ask about it at archiveteam.org