Rapists and Rape Accusations in Socialist and Anarchist Groups

I think that rape scandals in leftist orgs are as common as in rightist ones but it's only in leftist orgs that they get attention

Women are capable of harassing or raping other women.

Communist celibacy vows is a good idea.

call me naive maybe but I expect organized groups to not fall for the "he raped me wiz hiz eyez" meme.

Anyway I don't see how victim-blaming or hiding rapists does anything for the strengthen our groups, unless you're somehow trying to convince MRAs to join a rad-left organization

Political parties should be male only. It's not like women actually contribute anything besides drama and idpol.

Maybe guys should just learn to keep it in their pants? If you want to bang your colleagues join an anarchist group.

Yes, but because they are cancer, not because of some rape shit.

Uh, maybe women should stop being such prudes? If you didn't want to be groped then you shouldn't have left the house sweetie.

Go home Proudhon. You're drunk.

Do you have sauce comrades?

Well, that sounds like an issue for the police, right? I don't see any way you can handle this alone. I don't like the police, but all I can see is isolating accused group members (and possibly accusers in some situations) from the other party, and letting the gubbermint investigate. For obvious reasons, don't take sides unless you know for sure who did what.
I'd probably discourage being with anyone alone. Don't allow any situation where someone could be feasibly molested, at least while doing "official" party work. If there is an accusation, I honestly can't see any way around it except for the police, or some retarded who dunnit vote. I don't understand what you're a getting at, how are these people getting raped? Are they going door to door with flyers and Jimmy tells Sarah there are more flyers in his house? What the hell is going on here??

there never is evidence

Yeah the government would never use rape accusations to jail political enemies.

Are you a liberal or something???

communists should trust the police why?

MIM used to require that their members be either monogamous or celibate. I think its a good idea but I'm not part of their likely FBI-run operation, so I can't say if it reduced any of those problems significantly or not.

gulag sexual deviants
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seriously though, if it is proven that someone actually did commit rape, they should be purged. There is no place for that in a movement that seeks emancipation

Well I wouldn't go that far. Traditional Monogamy is fine too. My ideal org wouldn't allow single men or sexual deviants of any sex (including swingers or people with "open" relationships) into its upper ranks honestly. Lenin was right. Conservative non-spooked lifestyles are superior for the revolutionary.

Shit fam I'm sorry didn't realize we were in a super gnarly anarchist commune. Let's just like, investigate as a community to get to the bottom of this.
What do you want from me? I can't magically create a new way to deal with rape allegations. I guess we don't report the rape at all, lest the dirty gubbermint fake the evidence. This is a lose/lose. Like I said, this shirt should happen in the first place, and I don't understand how it's happening.

The more I think about it, I don't know why the organization is involved at all. What could they possibly do in this situation, besides kick someone out with no evidence? The only answer I can see is isolating the incident from the party itself, safe party events/activities/whatever. If a person is found to be a rapist, kick them out.

Oh yeah, I love the police just because there is no other way I know to deal with rapists. Please enlighten me.
INB4 support rapists in their struggle against the imperialist police.

violent rape sure. sex that a women regrets I don't think really qualifies for purging. Not to mention that false accusations are always a thing as well.

i'd probably call myself a hedonist at this point. group sex is cool, poly is cool, fucking other dudes wives is cool. its borderline sacrilege but im an atheist so idgaf. kinda cool giving the middle finger to long held traditions like marriage.

Gr8 b8, I rel8 m8.

in general this is my 'falling out' with the left. a lot of them are like, anti-fun. ohh no, don't do drugs, ohh no, don't fuck that way, its immoral!!
oh nooo, don't watch porn, women are precious creatures that do no wrong!!!

lollllllllllllll

well obviously, maybe i didn't make myself clear enough. we shouldn't just kick people out at the first rape accusation, but if we discover that someone legitimately fucked a person without their consent, we should remove them

When you keep saying rapists I'm imaging you're talking about people who beat women and violently rape them which is not a thing people in communist parties commit.

The kind of rape being discussed is the sjw version where consensual sex can change at any time to something called "rape".

To ignore the fact that the left have historically had false accusations of their sexual conduct thrown at them by those in power is pretty ignorant though. Do you not read about the history of the movement much?

these positions are even more mind boggling when you see how they giddily the lefties now accept trannies and gays. like, ok, so poly isn't "ok" but fucking guys in the asshole, getting surgery to turn your dick into a pussy is, …

lol i just don't get it. it is amazing how in one stroke you can be "anti hedonism" and then embrace all these other things that are so obviously degenerate and easily argued as "harmful to the party" as well. it's such an easy bullshit excuse for making up more gay ass fucking conservative rules. might as well vote republican lol

I think leftist conservatives like that are a vocal minority. They are still a problem that should be adressed regardless.

"woah hey i was with you guys on the violently overthrowing capitalism thing but now i won't get to be a degenerate NEET???"
not even one of those "anti-fun" gommies, but that was legit retarded

I uh, don't think the sexual conservatives and progressive idpolers are the same people

Genuinely kill yourself.

This is pure Brocialism. Not the meme of being "class reductionist" but this view is cancer.

Then why did op say this
He then goes on to talk about how he doesn't want to join orgs that purge willy nilly. Seems hes talking about what Im talking about, and what you are talking about. I'm perfectly on topic, imo.
I'm not ignoring shit, I'm facing it with a solution. There may be a better way, but I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm btfo. Do you have a solution other than "lol fuck cops"? What do you want to tell OP, to have a revolution, set up some sort of Socialist Justice System and then investigate them?
"no"

Jesus Christ dude, sex without consent is rape. The "she needs to violently struggle or it isn't rape" is reactionary trash. End your life, you're not a leftist.

This is why those rules would need to be put in place. To keep people like you from ever coming into power and promptly running everything into the ground with your dysfunctional behavior. Fortunately we would only be barring a very small percentage of the working class from participating in our activities since hedonism under capitalism is a strange bourgeois preoccupation. The only proles that get into it are the strange porn addled ones like yourself.

No u. You fucking feminist.

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this is beginning to smell like bait

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Its okay son. Why don't you hop on your father's lap, and have a man to man with me. Is there something on your mind? Perhaps… pic related?

this is beginning to smell like reddit

How fucking spooked do you have to be to think this is a good idea.

idpol isn't inherent to feminism
but you'd rather be le edgy anti-SJW gommie, wouldn't you.

Women are political non actors they only submit to whatever the strongest prevailing attitude is at the time.

According to your own definition of feminism it is.

This is literally idpol. At least learn what idpol is before you post.

Correct.

No it isn't. It's not idpol unless they reject class conflict.

it's the dictionary definition, word-for-word. I'm not sure how to find a more objective word definition.
k
I'm glad that you've admitted that you're just an edgy faggot, without coercion

thot genocide when?

Don't you get tired of dysfunctional hedonists ruining org after org with their insatiable lusts and appetites? I mean this isn't a game. This is a life or death struggle. There is no time for fucking around while working for the future.

anyone going "muh false accusations the damn feminazis are out to opress with their "informed consent" lies patriarchy doesn't real" might as well turn on their Nazi like this guy right here at least end the cognitive dissonance

This tumblr bullshit needs to be nipped in the bud. All it would take for COINTELPRO to smash literally any leftist organization at this point is just throw a few allegations of sexual harassment around. You wouldn't need any proof, the accusation alone would cause enough controversy and internal turmoil to destroy the organization.

Yes! It's the ebil hedonists and their sex! Certainly not the government or Capitalism!

What does that have to do with not letting single men into the upper ranks of the party?

If you don't have a procedure that's fair to the accuser, that will also destroy the organization when an accusation is made.

You know as well as I do that feminism isn't some objectively defined monolithic thing. Even the "equality of the sexes" isn't something that all feminists agree on.

>>>/liberalpol/

literally no one on here is advocating that we purge anyone who is accused of rape without an investigation

How exactly do you plan on investigating the countless "he said, she said" situations that are bound to come up?

I think that guy's trolling but that's not what he posted before. He's referring to something that is not sex without consent but is being taught at universities as rape. Namely, sex that is later regretted. Sexuality is complex and one's own sexual desire can overwhelm the capacity for rational thought, especially if you're trained not to think of yourself as having much of a sex drive. People often find themselves the next morning saying "what was I thinking?" The problem is coming to the conclusion that because the level-headed you who would say no now didn't stop you from enthusiastically participating then means you got raped.

If they don't believe in the basic tenet of their ideology, they're not feminist. Just like how the Nazis weren't socialists just because they called themselves socialists.
if you don't fit the objective definition of something, it isn't 'no true scotsman' to point it out.
but no, people aren't treated differently on the basis of their identity ever.

Who are you to gatekeep feminism, you pretentious shit?

if there is literally no evidence other than "he said she said", than the accused is presumed innocent.

it's the definition of the fucking ideology. If I call myself an anarchist and simultaneously advocate a dictatorship of the proletariat, is it unreasonable for you to reject my label?

The larger question looming here is how you deal with the social implications of an accusation. Sure, you won't institutionally punish someone who's not proven guilty but you still have to deal with the social consequences of an accusation, especially one where the conflict isn't resolved.

There are no basic tenets to feminism you retard. Feminists fight each other over the most basic things all the time. Feminism is just female centered politics.

if a faction of anarchists started arguing for marxist-leninist ideals, would you just go "lol i guess anarchy has literally no ideals"?

Some people will insist that a woman's accusation is good enough and if you refuse to punish the accused they will just accuse you of being a rape sheltering woman hater. These are the people who we really should be purged mercilessly.

we can purge both y'know

this

I'm not saying you are, what I'm saying is that idpollers and their hysteria need to be removed, or else what I described could easily happen.

Obviously if somebody is convicted of rape then they should be removed, but with a lot of people on the left today, alleged rapists are seen as guilty until proven innocent. I've even heard people object to the use of the term "allegedly" when talking about somebody whose guilt hasn't yet been proven, essentially objecting to the presumption of innocence.

aight, so we're in agreement

Are there relevant movements who call themselves anarchists and get taken seriously by other anarchists as real anarchists when they're not? The closest comparison would be something like smashies who wear the banner but nothing else. In that case those people have little to no theory compared with the primary ideology of anarchism. On the issue of feminism, where is the line drawn and who gets to decide? There aren't a bunch of different anarchisms with fundamentally contradictory views. Even if anarchists disagree, it's mostly on detail. The notable exceptions are anarcho-capitalists which is taken seriously by almost literally nobody outside their circlejerk. Feminism is a big cluster of loosely related and extremely contradictory ideologies that really only have the throughline of "women's issues" with the relationship between those issues, the current state of things, and the future being highly variable.

Presumption of innocence is an Anglo construct that erases indigenous cultures' views on culpability. It's imperialist and must be opposed.

Cops wear cameras 24/7. I think a rational society in the future is going to be the same. There is a black mirror episode that had something like that.

*are starting to

W O K E
O O
K K
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what major feminist groups think that gender equality is bad? They might have retarded ideas about what gender equality means, but that is a different argument entirely

That's almost worse, tbh. I've dealt with video recording enough to know that cameras miss important shit all the time. That wouldn't be so bad, I mean at least they got something, BUT with video evidence you can easily get a false sense of seeing the whole picture, when you might be missing something crucial. This mentality is reinforced by popular media - movies and TV - which are precise and choreographed video designed to show the audience everything they need to see. If it's not in the frame, people will very quickly forget it exists.

No, it's exactly the argument I'm having. Welcome aboard.

no, groups having differing interpretations of the central tenet is not the same as a group that rejects it.

It's effectively the same when the interpretations are so different that they are completely opposed to one another.

so what major feminist position/group would you consider to have such a fucked idea of gender equality?

That's relative to what brand of feminism you subscribe to, of course.

you guys are worse than regular Holla Forums

SWPs reputation was severely damaged by this. Happened to the SP in australia too and 3\4s of them all resigned.

The accusation could even come in the form of "he was in a higher position of power(rank in the organisation) and i felt coerced"

When this comes out its always the man being exploitative and never a women being dishonest, fucking for promotion

Sexual politics in orgs happen and sex can be used as a weapon by both genders.

The problem we are talking about is members being so sensitive to even a possibility of this type of misdonduct that they will mass resign if the accused isnt purged, and if they are purged then wreckers will have an unlimited purge card
to play.

Leave the group until it all blows over so that you personally don't have to suffer the tedium of being involved in a black hole that will probably destroy the group outright.

Very much inclined to agree with this, or something along those lines. (A generalised don't ask don't tell policy towards sex might also do for practical purposes, just to ensure the focus of the group itself remains where it should be: Politics and platonic comradeship.)

Can't say I agree with this on principle but I do think it would make organisation infinitely more practical. The way society is presently structured does a lot of fucking around when you've got to deal with interaction between men and women that makes things awkward and stifles political organisation*. I've only really encountered two types of Bourgeois political party organisation:

1. Women are poorly represented. One or two turn up and contribute without causing problems. Occasionally someone makes an ass of themselves trying to have sex with them or someone from central office comes down and demands the group be more inclusive, but basically everything is functional.
2. Women are well represented or even dominant. They have their own separate power structure, such as quotas on the (I forget the word, but basically the management committee for the group.) and for delegations to party conference. Moving further up in the party you've got all women shortlists, etc. This turns out remarkably tedious since most of these women are centrists even down at the grassroots level, something I think is probably self-reinforcing. (Since it was generally centrists who set up such power structures to begin with, and since the outreach attempts they make appeal more to the apolitical.) To the disadvantage of the male-dominated left.

In a hypothetical third situation where you had a reasonable synthesis between the two, I feel like the likely outcome would be to synthesise the disadvantages of both approaches rather than the advantages.

*Which I mean if you want to use the word, is the fault of patriarchy - but you don't resolve patriarchy by rendering political organisation and debate practically impossible. Or I mean, maybe you do - but I'm having nothing to do with it.

BUT as I must emphasise there's nothing inherent in their being women that causes this, it's just a not-quite-empirical observation of what's happened.

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you should actually kill yourself

his comics are as retarded as garrisons "charicatures" are bad, posting this cringy shit should be a ban reason.

Hide it, obviously

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Hello Holla Forums.

Who are we supposed to have sex with then? Lenin's waifu was a Bolshevik after all.

Non-party people? It's a solution some of the stricter parties have done

There are many organisations that successfully deal with this issue without getting into the whole drama like leftist orgs do.

Leftist orgs are very resistant to learning because they just assume that everyone who hasnt got these issues is actually just keeping them hidden and think that their open shitflinging is somehow actual helpful because it plublicises these problems they think exist everywhere.

Celibacy vows wont stop deliberate wrecking. It wont stop people making false rape claims to wreck.

So make allegation to wreck, then be obstinate to ensure failure of talk. This process could help but it wont immunise against deliberate efforts to sabotage.

The fundamental problem is everyone involved in the orgs are purity testers who pull up stumps and walk away so as not to be seen as defending rape culture. The problem isnt even that the rapist isnt purged. Its that then the whole leadership is accused of engaging in a coverup or being sexist for not immediately "believing" the accuser or handling things more sensitively and thats how the orgs get torn apart.

If your organisation attracts these types then you are probably a shit organisation. Every once in a while you might find a horrible manipualitve person, but if the rest of the organisation actually has something that holds them together and long running trust this can be prevented from being catastrophic. I dont really think that the idpol organisations can still be saved in this regard though, you need to have actual workingclass organisation otherwise you are just a stupid club for self presenters.

The real problem is that when you eject a false rape acuser that they will ruin your image and try to rile up people against your organisation.

With the SP in Australia it was only about 10 actual members who left. 3 of them were on the national committee though. That's where you're getting the 3/4 since one of them stayed.

The problem isnt just the members trusting the allegations are false though. Its that if they choose the side of the org they will get shunned in wider leftist circles for siding with rape culture.

Rosa Luxemburg
Emma Goldman
Angela Davis

Kill yourself and take your friends with you please

what the fuck is your problem dude? are you sexist?

universites political organizations here in argentina accuse each other of protecting rapist
ALL
OF
THEM

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this.

How is this not a valid answer?

Make it a rule that any member of the organization who hears of these accusations, when of sufficient gravity, has to go to the police of be kicked out. Kicked out not for sexual abuse, but for a failure to report.
That way, the organization washes its hands of questions of guilt etc., and any victims will still receive help dependent on the judicial process of the land.

So become a turbo-snitch and have your organization completely compromised by the pigs? Great thinking there idiot.

Can you explain exactly where the harm is in reporting serious rape allegations?
A woman or man comes to you, and says: this person in our organization has raped me. What do you do?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be reported but it's well known that the CIA et al uses false rape accusations to control opposition

i'm a feminist but some of the accusations are fake caused by either goverment to use as an excuse to crack down on these groups or by justified hypersensitivity of leftists in these matters
the solution is to be aware and serious in what you do and not allow such things to happen in your spaces, not even allow people to doubt you.
unfortunately a lot of leftists are kids that get drunk and pass out leaving them wide open to all types of danger
tldr realise you're not immortal/indestructible and organise a community that protects it's members

gonna need sauce on that my dude

/porked/

women amongst themselves and dont give them any power

Remember to vote for Hillary.

I will borrow, and then paraphrase from renowned dandruff man Zizek.
"You know, in the very near future, as global capitalism becomes more brutal or whatever, the struggle itself *sniff* must also become more brutal. Pursuant to this I propose we do not call such incidents rape which implies that the receptive party is some kind of victim, no we wish to empower everyone within the revolution…so i propose that rape is the wrong term and we should prefer, sexually-enhanced critique. "

why would you rape a leftist… those things smell and a repulsively ugly

Man guilty. Woman Victim.
That's the rule always listen and believe.

what is it with trots and rape?

'democratic centralism' is basically a license to rape with impunity

Absolutely bourgeois. Just take matters in your own hands and make them feel the consequences as safely as you can (without the State and its bourgeois functionaries noticing you), or just fucking kick them out and have them live with their shit in complete solitude.

When your life actvity consists of infiltrating working class movements to sell your newspapers and provide critical support for some non-white despot because you think this is revolutionary you're gonna start feeling thirsty at some point.

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Three things sell Newspapers:
-Crime
-War
-Sex.

Combining two is great for sales. Combining 3 is even better, but they're usually too busy critically supporting whatever Arab nation is being invaded this week to join the army to commit a War-Crime-Sex.

Why the hell would you actually want these sociopaths in your organization at all? It would be like rewarding those arrivists who prospered during Stal– oh…

You can remove all references to leftism and it still holds. Every single person that isn't a porky is wasting their life.

Even Porky is wasting his life.

Feminazis will be purged in the revolution. Their made-up, groundless accusations of abuse and redefinition of rape to suit their interests are reprehensible. Their arrogant desire to be the gatekeepers of the left and to decide for other people what constitutes them giving legitimate consent are inexcusable and will not be tolerated. Feminists have always been agents of the porkies and they'll be purged right along with the porkies.

Protip: They hate being called feminazis, so make sure to call them feminazis every day!

She never supported Clinton you fucking faggot

It's for the good of the vanguard, which means its for the good of the international proletariat.

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fun fact: this is the last thing you will hear before a trot rapes you. run!

Ultimately not even supermassive black holes or galactic collisions matter. The point is that in our little mud ball, a very few people can quite literally satisfy each and every one of their decadent desires. That's not "wasting life" to me.

Even Porky is basically on a treadmill of desire, trapped by the machinations of other porkies.

Basically I'm just getting at the idea that Porky is also a victim of capitalism, even if he is not in any way a sympathetic victim. (Well, Porky as the individual human being, anyway, obviously as a collective Porky is far less sympathetic, and if one Porky tries to behave sympathetically the others will soon kick him out of the club.)

Well that's the thing, my point is that at least he has the resources to satisfy all of those desires.

He may be trapped into the system, but that doesn't necessarily makes him a victim. Nevermind the golden cage metaphor, think instead of a cage the size of the world. For anyone locked within it, it doesn't effectively exist.

theroot.com/angela-davis-i-am-not-so-narcissistic-to-say-i-cannot-1790857069

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We can ban both. There's a bit of overlap too

I'd actually approve of this. Throw all the whores into an irrelevant side-group where they can catfight and make false rape accusations to their hearts content. The rest of us can get on with real work. It'll be interesting to see which groups end up actually achieving anything.

Welcome to Holla Forums in 2017. After years of the BO practically encouraging feminists to come here and refusing to do anything about them, the board culture is slowly becoming more and more like /r/socialism. Nobody could have ever seen this coming…

it sure is a popular way to grab attention and money while getting rid of political opponent

Heh, shouldn't have open yer mouth if ye dinnay wanna get punched Cletus

Gee golly gosh, what about murder? What about burglary? What about harassment? What about fraud? What about embezzlement?

Call the police, you're the same as anybody else in 1st-world land, not some kind of revolutionary espionage cell, memelord.

This. Unless you're an insurgent armed force fighting under conditions of open warfare against a totalitarian military regime, you have no more reason to form your own internal parallel justice system than any other private organization (school, corporation, etc.).

I think for anarchists it depends whether it was a cop or not.

and also because some women are psychos

I read some Goldman this week, and she is retarded desu
or maybe just all anarchists are retarded, I can't quite tell yet

And if you handle those false accusations in the manner I described, they become harmless. If the police actually conducts an investigation, they will find that the person lodging the complaint is not using a real name etc. If everyone in the organization just takes an agnostic attitude while still referring these things to the police pronto, the only people who will complain will be the most radical "any accusation of rape = guilt" feminists, which are the kind of people you want to purge as quickly as possible anyway.

If your tippy secrit club HQ's location is listed in your pamphlets, the phonebook, and all your comrades' NSABook profiles, you don't get to LARP as revolutionaries.

It didn't really get bad until the last year or so though. I wonder if the original BO was secretly replaced. This "muh freeze peach" shit these people are bringing can't be allowed to fester.

dont' the police will always try and fuck you via dirty tricks

Of course by this I mean that feminists have always been the first ones to support censorship and we shouldn't allow that mentality to take command here.

People like that will find their way into every organization. It's not something you can control for. Also their aggression can be useful if directed at the appropriate people/institutions.

The group wouldn't be irrelevant. It would actually help address the needs of working women without encouraging drama or wrecking.

I honestly don't see it. I mean, the amount of newcucks bringing in dumb ideas isn't different than it used to be.

Anyway, I think there's a distinction to be made here between what feminism was (or stands for) and what it is now. They're two completely different beasts, almost diametrically opposed, yet are called by the same name. This creates needless conflicts.

Oh, so the feminist section would be a pest control trap? I like the way you think.

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Fuck off. We aren't exactly short of white males in anarchist groups. There's no smoke without fire, so kick them out and make them help with the investigation if they want a chance to be re-admitted.

I agree with this only because I enjoy watching anarkiddy groups implode.

enjoy your dead movement

kek good point. anarchists, please purge anyone accused of even looking at a woman without consent.