So I was reading "towards a new socialism" and got to this part about foreign currencies:

So I was reading "towards a new socialism" and got to this part about foreign currencies:

The remaining legitimate reason for citizens of the commonwealth to want capitalist currency is travel to capitalist states. This demand could be met by allowing citizens to use their labour credit cards when travelling in the capitalist world. A commonwealth citizen arriving in Tokyo could go to a Japanese bank and use her labour card to obtain Yen. The procedure would be something like this
(1) Citizen transfers 20 hrs labour credits to Japanese bank.
(2) Bank gives him an equivalent in Yen.
(3) Electronic record transferred to commonwealth foreign trade computers, which credit account of Japanese bank with 20 hrs labour.
(4) These accounts then used by Japanese bank to finance purchase of commonwealth exports.

Note that although a citizen outside the country is free to use her labour card to purchase Yen, she may not bring the Yen back into the country or change Yen back into labour credits. Correspondingly, although citizens can transfer
labour credits to the account of a capitalist bank, the bank cannot transfer labour credits back to the accounts of citizens. This is necessary to prevent foreign currency circulating as an internal means of exchange.

This is what happened in Eastern Europe and Latin America. You don't need banks to have a shadow economy based on dollars. Is Cockshott naive or did I miss something?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc#Black_markets
youtube.com/watch?v=sA33UBVUWNM
egifter.com/bitcoin/panera-bread-gift-card-bitcoin
anyforums.com/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

What question are you asking?

eastern europe and latin america don't use labor vouchers

That implies that capitalist countries will have economic relationships with your socialist country.

Why he thinks that people going abroad won't simply get a bunch of dollars and use that as regular currency and ignoring the labour credits, thus making the shadow economy the dominant one. Or Bitcoin or anything instead of labour credits.
True, Eastern Europe/USSR and Latin America didn't have labour vouchers, but they decided to use dollars and Deutsch-marks instead of their own currency. How would you prevent something like this happened with labour credits being even less convertible than the old currencies?

That was what Cockshott wrote, not me.
He mentioned it in his book.

Never said otherwise.

I dont understand your question?

The purpose of not allowing, say, the bank of japan to give socialist citizens labour credits is because this prevents the following:

This doesnt prevent people from using dollars, yen, gold or seashells to trade on a black market, but it does prevent the exchange of potential profits made by illegal means into legitimate purchasing power of labour vouchers. You would only be able to use black market money to buy from the black market, not to buy a house or a car.


They will, thinking you cant is naive.

what?

There are historical precedents that inflexible currencies will be replaced by foreign currencies and thus undermining the economy.
And labour credits are less flexible than the old socialist Eastern Europe currencies.

That would be a pretty tough thing to do since all means of production are collectively owned and the work in it paid in labour vouchers, and the product only buy able in labour vouchers. You arent going to buy groceries and every day items on the black market, where everything costs a premium due to their illegality, inefficiency and transportation cost. The only reason such a situation would occur is if the economy is being mismanaged and no food is being imported, despite there being enough resourced to trade or sell. If this is the case we have a much bigger problem than just the black market, namely being that cockshott was wrong. So under the assumption that cockshott is right (and he is) this scenario wont happen and theres no good reason to buy on the black market.

I'ma enjoy this thread.

You travel abroad. You exchange your labour credits to dollars. Then you don't spend them, but you bring them back, because dollars are useful everywhere and labour credits are very hard to use.

Why dont you fuck off, you only shit everything up despite not understanding squat.

Lmao not even ten replies in and there's already "socialism" in one country by omission. I knew this was gonna be great.

i cannot think of countries without black markets of sorts. Maybe you have counter examples I could read about?

Don't mind me, keep going. Pretend I'm not there.

...

Im going to need a citacion for that and youre going to need to explain and think about why these currencies got "replaced". As far as I know, all soviet republics still used roubles for the majority of transactions, not dollars.


Good luck using your dollars to buy groceries, cars or clothes in europe or your socialist republic. On the other hand, labour vouchers can buy groceries, clothes and cars.
Why are you under the impression that "dollars are much more usefull"?


The existence of black markets for illegal goods is not the same as your supposed illegal goods for everything that is legal and not restricted.
Nowhere on the world do you have a black market in corn or potatoes, unless the access to it is restricted such that those with more economic power gain less of it than they did without the restriction. Cockshotts system doesn't have large economic inequality, not artificial restriction of access to resources according to this economic inequality.

A black market for pot and heroin doesnt really have an impact. Can you explain why it would have?

The world is very interconnected. There lots of reasons to believe that there will be some resources that both the capitalist and socialist countries would benefit from having trade relations over.
not an argument

Ew no. There's a reason ultras have historically always avoided academic settings. The only place where the development of theory so often stands so still is in universities. I place my armchair at home, in a workplace or on the streets. I only feel contempt for those who think they're more enlightened than a worker and that they need to trick him and manipulate him into his betterment. The real movement nigga.

I'm still invisible BTW.

Forgot to add:
And then theres also the fact that citizens might want to travel between countries for one reason or another. This would also be a form of economic relation.

If you take this reality and see only
as the alternative it's normal you're confused.

The point is, there will not and cannot be a "socialist country", only a capitalist country under proletarian dictatorship. The world cannot be part socialist, part capitalist, if not simply because a locality not producing commodities cannot exchange commodities because it has none, but because a locality absent of capital cannot defend itself against localities that will by economic law outproduce you and by necessity tend towards imperializing your weak ass sooner or later.

If you're envisioning a reality that involves "socialism in one country" you're not just envisioning something non-socialistic but are already surrendering revolution to a paradigm where that in fact capitalist country has lost the active struggle against international capital (all capital) and is already regressing towards all normative capitalist laws and customs. You might be the type to idealistically call this latter phenomenon that eventually happened in all SiOCs/AESes "revisionism"; as if the situation was taken hostage by some pesky people not thinking the right thoughts, when it was in fact the very consequence of the counter-revolutionary turn already poisoning the well (this is why you will never find a left communist saying Stalin was some demon who's to blame, rather that his very existence and beliefs as such and indeed the very possibility of his actions were the product of something he inherited).

A need and desire for goods that could be bought only in foreign currency.

Why are you under the impression that "dollars are much more usefull"?

If I have dollars, I can convert them to euros or whatever currency that is exchangeable. Then iI can buy everything I want on a world market.

I can't do that with labour vouchers.


That's what happened in the eastern bloc.
Hard foreign currencies were used instead of the local currency. Call it black or gray, it doesn't matter.

Most workers are either politically retarded or blinded by the ethos of capitalism.
Tricking them seems a bit counter productive, we are after all supposed to create a system where workers control the means of production, but manipulating into betterment seems unproblematic. Or at least better than pretending being part of the worker class is some kind of virtue on it's own.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc#Black_markets

Thats where you and I differ in opinion then. I think that a socialist society can provide sufficiently for its population such that a black market economy can never sufficiently develop to be a threat to societies native industries, and as such we can exist, at least economically, in a world side by side with capitalist nations.


Such as? Theres very little goods that are so desires people would go through the trouble of paying black market traffickers to get it to them, and if there is, society should do something about it, rather than just leaving it be.

ok? So you can buy some japanese snuff porn, even though you could also just send labour vouchers to the bank of japan to get yen?


It is because prices were set at arbitrary bullshit prices and the government was unable to provide the goods that the population desired, despite having enough resources in society to acquire those goods.
If these products are not in short supply, there shouldn't be a black market for them. And addressing economic planning and providing the desired goods for society is what cockshott aims to solve.

Please define desired goods.

If there is no desire on their end to break their chains, chances are they're still under effect of (the ruling) ideology; that this ideology still manages to mask their real conditions of existence as ultimately nothing but wage-labourers under a system of commodity production, where their labour is separated from them.

If history shows us anything to vindicate the following, with most notably Marx as observer of it and in hindsight accurately so, it is that the workers themselves will it some point, at first perhaps but in small numbers, notice their predicament and revolt against it. Marx's project as such started out as an analysis of the phenomenon of workers already struggling against capital, even organizing themselves in new ways such as unions and communes, and so on. Our job as communists is here not to hijack, lead or substitute the proletariat, but tail it, support it where it needs help and help it find its mode of organization or, if it already has, fulfill the tasks it cannot. Be that in the class party, councils, class unions, etc. or whatever form it takes.

But we very easily "trick" them, or mislead them. Many communists, of various different flavours and persuasions, have ultimately done just that: funneled the expression of working class discontent towards ends that ended that expression, made it eclipse, made it fade or even outright killed them.

I'm not going to bother going into why this latter thing you said is wrong, but again, no: we as a caste of communists standing outside of the workers' movement aren't going to create shit, not because I don't want us to, but because we can't. We create a new system by abolishing the wage-labouring (proletarian) condition, which means we need to ultimately see to it that the proletariat in its entirety engage in self-abolition; realize its negative position in the capitalist mode of production and end it.

As communists we are both against bettering the wage-labourer's condition as we are against worsening it. As history has continually shown, it has always been the bourgeoisie that before us communists wanted to better the conditions of the working class; make it healthier, more comfortable and thus mode productive wage-labour:
>To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of “socialism” has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems.
If we want to alter the way workers fare under capitalism, we are better off just participating in any tenant bourgeois organization and dropping the moniker of communist altogether, for bourgeois society does all the necessary to be the kind slavemaster. But we are communists, and we are not for keeping human subjects wage-labourers, we are for helping them find their own abolition as such and becoming freely associating individuals; individuals that no longer identify one another through objects, commodities, by isolating themselves as producers.

...

(From Communist Manifesto, chapter 3, section 2: "Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism", BTW)

But there was a black market for these goods, even though there probably were local substitutes.
Why use toilet paper when you can use leaves?
Why not grow your own food?
Why did they desire these goods?

Because you cant, that doesnt work and theres not enough leaves in the city for that.
Because you can't
Because you need to eat, shit and brush your teeth.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc#Black_markets
Thank fuck for this much better capitalist alleyway in the East Bloc than the centrally planned commodity production. My parents survived because of that shit and we wouldn't have that sick East Bloc jazz music without it, check it out: youtube.com/watch?v=sA33UBVUWNM (that channel is a great find BTW, uploads a ton of red capitalist tunes from back in the day!).

But leftcom this puts me on an interesting idea.

Could an economy as outlined by cockshott in his book be efficient enough and produce enough as to not succumb to being flooded by the products of a capitalist economy? Could cockshotts socialism be more efficient than the current existing, crisis ridden capitalism? Could they compete?

Citation needed.
Citation needed.
I can grow my own food, shit without using toilet paper and brush my teeth with my finger.

They desired goods that made life easier and nicer. It wasn't a life or death situation.
They'd rather use dollars and D-marks than finding alternatives to the existing product shortage. The power of money compelled them.

Cockshott it a retard, pure and simple.
Also, nigger straight from the bush

kys Holla Forumsintelpro

If it was the size and had the resources and people of the United States, maybe.

Bet you live in the fucking sticks or something. In the city there isnt enough space for people to grow food for themselves and not enough trees to wipe your ass with.
Stop being purposefully retarded.
The people of soviet russia has very little power over the means of production. They couldn't just "find alternatives to the shortage" when they had no power ofver it.

47% of the United States doesn't have any people living there. There's plenty of land here.


They were allowed to grow their own crop and sell it, though.

...

People in the middle of moscow didnt live in buttfuck dakota, mate. Nor do I. You can't just travel out of the city to homestead without any knowledge of agriculture, without any resources to do so, etc etc.
Im beginning to think you're one of those capitalist apologists who always resort to the ridiculous "just go live in the woods if you dont like it" argument.

You are defending decadent cosmopolitans.
If you do not work, you will not eat.
And if you don't get paid with real money, you'll send your products and service to someone with real money.
Labour vouchers are not flexible enough to compete with real money.

Fuck off pol pot.

Labour vouchers are useful to buy products. They are used to buy shit. You make it by working. Its as good as money with none of the downsides.

You have yet to prove this claim without resorting to pointing to a system with perpetual shortages.

Food, toiletpaper and a toothbrush isnt decadence you fucking anprim.

If I have dollars, I can buy (or convert it to another currency) goods and services all over the world.
With labour vouchers, I can only use them in one country and I can only convert them to currencies with the explicit permission of the government and in limited amounts.

kek

Except for import taxes, embargos and whatnot.

Are you seriously denying that capitalist currencies are more flexible than deliberately crippled labour vouchers?

No? Whats your fucking point?

Less "flexible" labour vouchers wont result in the scaremongering idiotic scenario where everyone and their mother will use a foreign currency to buy stolen goods.

Anyway im going to bed, keep thinking that people will use dollars and constantly commit crimes instead of just using labour vouchers to buy affordable food and toiletpaper like a normal person.
You sound like one of those bitcoin autists who think everybody will use bitcoin because "hur the government doesnt control it".

you are implying that capitalists can produce and transfer goods to population cheaper than socialist country. That's simply bullshit

Bitcoin is used because it's harder to track than with other online payment options.
Therefore it's more flexible to use for some purposes. A lot of sex workers use Bitcoin to buy ad space on websites, for instance.
So, yes, if there are flexible payment/currency alternatives, they will prevail over the less flexible ones.

No, the population in the socialist country will use capitalist currencies because it's more flexible than labour vouchers.

try to buy bread with your BTC


It's flexible where? What kind of services do you think people are spending money on? Not everyone needs lifetime supply of printed japanese loli comics with several onaholes.

I can convert bitcoins to dollars or euros or yen.
Or:
egifter.com/bitcoin/panera-bread-gift-card-bitcoin


It's useful everywhere. Unlike labour vouchers.

Have you ever tried it?

That's not really an argument.

Imagine having gulag. You take tens of thousands of people, force them to literal slave labour, and all products you produce you can sell or redistribute. Now imagine that instead of tens of thousands of slaves, you hire dozen computer/machines scientists (or whatever is correct term for that occupation) and pay them good pay (at least same amount of resources used to pacifying whole gulag). Now try to explain to me why the fuck would anyone want to buy expensive, low-quality products from capitalist states.

what does this say?

...

the only reason to be opposed to cockshott is to be opposed to socialism

i didn't read the book and even i know it's out of context.