Saw this argument online. Can someone help me defeat it? I'm kind of new to the whole Labour Voucher thing

Saw this argument online. Can someone help me defeat it? I'm kind of new to the whole Labour Voucher thing.

Where is the argument in that which you want to defeat and why would that need defeating?

There is already a labor voucher thread

Was the value of the traded goods the same as the value of the amount of labour vouchers required to pay for the repair? If not you are a capitalist roader and deserve to be thrown into the sun.

Aren't labour vouchers meant to be non-transferable from worker to worker - and have an expiry date besides that - specifically to prevent accumulation?

I work extra hard and get lots of labour vouchers… scratch that, I don't even have to do anything different to the rest… I don't smoke, I don't drink, I'm not particularly interested in too many scarce items. So I have most if not all of my labour vouchers left over, had some chat with the guys on /liberty/ to figure out what to do, and now I go and buy dragon dildos. Stuff that stores well. I want to buy ten coal mines. I ask the miners if they have enough dragon dildos. They say no, a miner can never have enough dragon dildos. I get all the mines and become a capitalist with a monopolistic super surplus. I use my wealth as an influencer to completely retool the economic system into a capitalist one, as close to the Austrian ideal as possible. There is a mine that almost has no coal left they say, I suggest that you just have to dig deeper, they say that's dangerous, the workers might get killed and so on, but I don't care, I become super-greedy and say dig deeper, drill deeper. They do and they find a dragon's cave. And it turns out real dragon dicks look totally different than what the dildos looked like, so everybody I had some dildo business with in the past sues me for crimes against the market, and I am now about to get executed by death squads brought to you by Coca Cola(TM). My last words: Fuck you, /liberty/

That's the problem with them imho. How does one ensure their non-transferability for example?

I dont think you understand how labour vouchers work…

Make them digital and person bound?

Whether vouchers are person-bound or not, whether they have an expiration date or not, the point persists that you can use them to obtain durable items and use these in turn for black-market exchanges. The question is how much of a problem that is.

Here's Marx on the subject a few decades after he first hypothesized them in Capital vol. 2 (part 3, chapter 18, 1), :
>This circumstance, then, arises from the material character of the particular labour-process, not from its social form. In the case of socialised production the money-capital is eliminated. Society distributes labour-power and means of production to the different branches of production. The producers may, for all it matters, receive paper vouchers entitling them to withdraw from the social supplies of consumer goods a quantity corresponding to their labour-time. These vouchers are not money. They do not circulate.
Why do they not circulate? He explains why in the former part I bolded why they don't: because they are truly but an instrument to the realization of utility distribution in a world now free of the possibility for private ownership because all value relations and its enabling structures have been abolished and their way of reappearing, too. Any other method of realizing the adequate outside of the hypothesized labour voucher would only serve to this end, too (e.g. direct human planning according surpluses directly rather than through ration aportioning with vouchers). What you seem to be afraid of is pathological cases of hoarding vouchers just like you would likely characterize money-capital accumulation as pathological, but wrongly so. See, such "pathologies" are at first always little more than a channeling of the basic workings of individuals under a system of capital accumulation. For such a pathology to exist under a world absent of capital, it needs to necessarily be an oddity, or you have to be a believer in le utilitarian human nature meme. If it's the latter you'll need to explain how humanity knows a history absent of (private) property long enough not to have entire massacred or starved itself to death under conditions where hoarding knew no system-endemic or even reproductive benefit.

nice

cont.
And this depends on how much of a gap there is between what is criminalized and what common folk regard as something which ought to be criminalized, so it's directly tied to how democratic society is. If weed is widely seen as a rather mild drug while the law and the law-enforcing apparatus follows a different doctrine, of course you will have illegal weed-producing activity. Whether there are labour vouchers or not doesn't seem to be the pivotal element here though, and if anything, not having cash puts sand into the dynamics of activities outside of the official system.

You have to count twice the effect of moving a resource from the official system into this when it comes to the immediate effect of how attractive one system is relative to the other and what needs to be kept in mind is that the black market is a positive-feedback loop. It's possible that productive circuits with all needed ingredients for reproduction form in the illegal sector that then grows rapidly.

every transferability problem of this nature can be solved with a criptocurrency-like database of transactions.

also im not sure if that type of voluntary circulation would be dangerous, as a needed condition to establish a labour voucher system is to abolish private property.

Labour vouchers would be non-transferable except in certain cases, and would likely be handled electronically for the majority of transactions. Any that aren't would probably be printed with your name on them and have various anti-counterfeiting measures just like regular cash.

As far as bartering goes, it's not exactly easy to stockpile shit tons of goods, the scale on which such a person would be able to cheat a system in this manner would be small enough that I doubt it would even have to be illegal.

Except if it's a voucher economy running a capitalist enterprise is impossible since people won't be able to pay you, unless you intend to conduct all of your business through barter.

OP did explicitly state that he would trade goods bought with labour vouchers not the vouchers themselves. But I really don't see how a black market of a few guys passing around whiskey is going to be a threat to the economic system, black markets thrive where goods are not getting to the public and there is a severely limited supply, I don't see why that would be the case in modern socialism.

I-is that James Rolfe?

Sounds very retarded m8. How is "abolishing all value relations" going to to prevent the local scarcity described in the OP? If I am good at baking pies and I want a blowjob from my pie loving neighbor, why would I not exchange pies for blowjobs? Why would I not accumulate labor vouchers to get extra pies for anal?

Ever tried putting pie in the mouth instead?

Ever tried making an argument?

Not a pie.

How inspiring

so what happens if you don't have anything the technician wants