How do we kill the 'muh democratic ownership' meme?

How do we kill the 'muh democratic ownership' meme?

By reading Zizek, Cockshotté, Jodie Dean, Adrian Johnston, Badioue, etc.

b-but muh IMF loans and millionaires, don't make me read marx!

market socialism is an oxymoron, fuck you and go read marx already

What part of "I'd rather work in a cooperative than a corporation" don't you understand?

There's a difference between that and insisting that co-ops are socialism and socialism means co-ops.

Which part of lesser-evilism don't you understand?

The part where the market essentially equalizes the two.

By having everyone read Marx

I think this is where people distinguish socialism and communism. As such I think it reasonable to define socialism as social ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.

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When the means of production, distribution and exchange aren't in private hands, what about it remains capitalist?

let's all vote cthulhu and accelerate right into hyperspace.

Commodity production, exchange, value, capital, wage labor, state

Do you even know what this means? Wage labor means you produce for someone else, and a portion of that value is returned to you as a wage.
If you own the means of production, then you receive the full value of your labor and it's not a goddamn wage.

nobody has made that argument ever and even if they did they're an incredibly small minority.

on the other hand everyone i see complaining about co-ops is a strawmanning tit on the same level of the retards bitching at welfare measures because they're not communist. fucking duh, everyone knows that.

What's wrong with picking the lesser-evil when there is no good choice? I'd much rather live in socdemland than lolbertaria for instance, despite both being capitalism and needing a revolution to overthrow them.

People (stupid shitheads) do make that argument from time to time here.

I see it all the time though.

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well maybe it's time to stop shilling "socialism" as lower stage communism then.

Which are thing to be abolished under communism. And a lot of that is not exclusive for capitalism, exchange has existed since the end of communal civilisation, capital has existed in various forms since classical antiquity.

Also wage labour is meant to be extinguished under socialism so…

Regardless, this is when the distinction between socialism and capitalism comes into play. And anyone that does not immediately go for communism is not a socdem: that is some US politics tier perversion of demic political terms.

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hmm?

The word socialism existed before Marx coopted it. If anything Proudhon has more legitimacy to define what is socialism than Marx.

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Market "socialists" are really dumb and there weren't any leftcoms around so I'd figure I'd do it.


I knew that. However, Marx made the distinction between utopian socialism and scientific socialism. Proudhon's ideas are nice, and Marx built upon them, but mutualism should be left in the dustbin of history.

Anarchists are generally better read on Marxism than vice versa.

Nice liberal trash.

Is democratic ownership or syndicalism really a practical, existing concept within whatever is left of the working class movement? I don't know anyone who would really just be fine with taking over their workplace and simply making a few tweaks.

It's something spouted by boring socialists but aside from that, it doesn't mean anything to most people.