Hardline Marxists

Honestly though. How do the people on here who believe abolition of the Free Market is an absolute necessity of the Revolution seriously think they'll ever gain the kind of support necessary for their revolution to succeed in the first place?

The kind of measures that you would have to implement to encourage people used to living in a Free Market system to produce again would have to be extreme.

Market Socialism on the other hand has already been proved to be quite successful, it still gives the worker incentive to produce while letting him have more control over the means of production, it is capable of creating a society that is still capable of providing to the many consumer good needs of society and at the same time promotes a general understanding of the true meaning of Socialism to its inhabitants. It's the perfect system for the transitory period.

To me this seems incredibly self evident. So why do Anarchists still insist on the immediate abolition of the Free Market?

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cooperativeeconomy.info/could-communal-economy-be-a-distinct-mode-of-production/
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Revolution is not about 'convincing people'. Revolution won't happen when enough proles are tricked into supporting x brand of socialism. If it happens, it will occur as a result of physical conditions then in existence. Privation and oppression or lack thereof. This has been borne out by history.

I'm referring to after the revolution as well.

Because they actually want to get rid of capitalism, not just dress it up to look a little better.

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Because if the proletariat has seized the state, we might as well bundle our industries together and plan production in a rational and democratic way instead of perpetuating this farce of an economic system.
And anarchists are gonna do the same thing thing just without the state

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we have this thread EVERY DAY
Its not only marxist, any marxist which is not a yugocuck is also in favor of abolishing the market

We don't like capitalism, sorry.

Hell, I would say certain revisionists can be called Marxists, but not these.

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You mean that one time you tried it and it somewhat worked for 40 years after which the country fell apart in the bloodiest civil war in europe since ww2?

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Did you get so buttblasted in the anti work thread that you had to make a new thread for it?

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Why do you suck so hard, OP? Read Gothakritik.

Examples?

Because they're socialists. Marksucc is a more comfortable capitalism, a more ambitious social democracy if you will. At best it's worth advocating for outside periods where there is revolutionary potential for self-interest with the intention of demolishing it in a revolution, at worst it's a dead end masquerading as a solution.

That statistic is highly misleading.

Don't kick consciousness out of the equation so easily. If you don't have the level of class consciousness needed, the revolution won't be a communist one, but a fascist or otherwise conservative one.

please elaborate

Wouldn't you need a second transitional period to go from market socialism to planned socialism as market socialism still has the commodity form and capitalist property relations to a degree? you that would be a lower lower communism(market socialism), lower communism(planned) and upper communism (FALC/from each, to each, etc).

Pay attention OP, if you are to be an actual market socialist, you should have no delusions about the free market. The market always requires a state, and regulation. Alternatively, in history, the only time there has been something close to a "free market" were the markets of the medieval Islamic world, where there was not even enforcement of contract law. This forced a system of reputation becoming the basis for a credit system, and prevented contemporary capitalist competition from taking root, since then, cutthroat competition really meant cutting throats. Needless to say, this is as impossible today as a return to USSR style economies.

Yugoslavia should not be treated as a model for future market socialist societies, it's system of ownership, and politics had deep structural failures, but ones relatively easily fixed compared to systems of the rest of the eastern block.

tell me how are you gonna fix unemployment in your market system then?

I don't think you could be considered any kind of marxist if you're not in favor of abolishing the commodity form. This article is meant to address just the economy of Rojava but I think it's good as a general critique of revolutionary movements that don't seek to abolish markets. Mind you, this isn't meant to be anti-rojava since all other aspects of their revolution prime them pretty well to centralize production.

cooperativeeconomy.info/could-communal-economy-be-a-distinct-mode-of-production/

It's okay grandma, there's tea in the other room.. Yes this is just like 1968.. I think lots of people should get the newspaper, too!
'>>1847436
There's no.. Let's go in the back yard.. You need a smoke? Better take one just in case..

The free market, son.. See there's not really a.. There's not really a…

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You do realize that yugoslavia was not really market socialism how its commonly envisioned, right? The state played a major role in direction of the economy. At best it could be said to have had prominent market elements.

This is always a fascinating refutation. All you're complaining about is the need to reinvest resources into production, and for the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. As wages and profits go down, so do prices in a market socialist system.

I also find it dubious when you declare that there would be direct, democratic control of the means of production. Certainly, voting on the ratios of investment, allocation of labor, and volume of production for every single good would be incredible obtuse if done on a large enough scale (and, eventually, you will have to vote on the macro scale. We live in a complicated international system of trade). The alternative would be to make it possible that the commune of Iowa could unilaterally shut down a major source of corn to the world, and so on and so on. Even in primitive communism, there was not democratic control. Rather, it was either simply understood that people took what they needed from their neighbor with the knowledge their neighbor would do the same when they were in need, or there was a particular group that would organize distribution, women's councils, a village elder, ect. The division of labor, however, was almost always predetermined, usually along sexual lines or some other custom.

What you are advocating for, though you may not realize it, is a democratized asiatic mode of production. The asiatic mode of production of course, being states that would take control of production, state's in the control of a private ruler or royal family. Now certainly, these goods were sold on a market, but not a market like we are used to, or like marx was. Money as hard currency was rarely used, instead, credit was used. Indeed, in many ancient systems, we see that by ranking goods in tiers, there was in-kind calculations. Sound familiar?

It should be telling that when the state did assume this role it was always a monarchy and never a republic. Republics were always a form of class rule where it was the commercial class, the capitalists, merchants, and landed aristocrats sharing power, thus, it was quite necessary for republics to protect private ownership of the means of production and with a wide number of owners. The asiatic mode of production, rather, has one single, private owner, and consolidates production under that owner through the state. The logic of growth and wealth creation continues. But consider for a moment, if we did have an actual democratic political system instead. We may get some very odd results, with popular goods being demanded in large volumes, but given less in terms of labor, resources and investment. For example, consider an agricultural economy that wants to produce more in consumer goods, but still has a big demand for "cheap" food. This is exactly what occurred in poland in the 80's, to disastrous results.

When we do get proposals for systems that balance democratic control, with the need for a coherent system, we get things such as Cockshott's, which, by his own admission, continues the law of value that seems to be your only critique of market socialism.

Where market socialism succeeds in that it preserves the progressive forces of the law of value, while having even more democratic control, and I would say, even more stability than cockshott's system. After all, if something were to go wrong in such a system, it would immediately be blamed on not a particular decision, but socialism itself. Whereas, by continuing the division of society into market and state, if something goes wrong, you can just blame one or the other, while the overall order stays chugging along, destined towards full automation thanks to that very competition and tendency for the rate of profit to fall.

Make it so people don't need to be employed to survive, make basic necessities like food, housing and utilities, at least, rationed out. The reason we need a market, is precisely because we don't fully know the capacity beyond and demand for basic goods versus others, and for the reasons I lay out here

Just why type at all?

Gee user, some of us like to write out our thoughts and develop our personal theories. And, if you're a marxist, you shouldn't be complaining about having to read things in the style of an 18th century philosopher in the first place.

Oh look, it's Sargon of Cuckad.

Looks like socialism achieved to me.

lmao, thanks for contributing jehu

Why would you try to refute something by making a gigantic, meandering post.
Look, I'll admit I'm being an ass, but I was excited to actually get into a discussion, and then he takes a big shit on my screen.

I'm tempted to refute it now, reverse psychology I guess.

Well, here's a tldr:
The law of value can be a good thing and will likely lead to full communism in a system of total proletarian democracy, whereas unstructured democratic control of an economy are more likely to regress when something unexpected happens.

And also that unstructured democratic control can easily lead to a misallocation of resources.

You do know that the CIA instigated that civil war so that they could privatize the Yugoslav mining industry, right?

In both cases, the market reforms meant allowing investors in. If you allow investors in, you're allowing capitalism in by default. And capitalism did what it always does when it enters a new environment, it fucking rapes the shit out of the people.

That already happens in a normal market.
I'm not proposing that the average consumer vote on global product production, that's ridiculous.
I can't imagine this as anything other than purposeful ignorance, I'm not talking about direct democracy over things people don't work on. Workers would have control over their work. The workers over in Iowa wouldn't have a say on worldwide corn production ffs.
This is a big fat nothing sandwich. I'm so surprised primitive, small scale "communism" didn't have a good system of distribution for modern society.
You don't know what I think. fuck me you're so pretentious
Nope.
Amazing.
This has literally nothing to do with anything I've said, and has everything to do with what you think I want. You misinterpret one thing and go off on this huge fucking tangent with a "smart" tone that borders on infuriating.
No argument.
"No".
No argument. You're talking about how your system is resilient against a strawman you made!

That's a point and not an argument, but if that post even resembled this I would be happy.

If you just say no to everything he says and accuse him of strawmanning then why don't you explain what your argument actually is?

Just gonna jump in here because we had a really good discussion about it in another thread earlier tonight. The tendency of a market is toward consolidation of production. That's what markets do best, they build monopolies. Under capitalism this is a bad thing because an industrial Monopoly extracts value from the workers by means of exploitation and from the customers by means of price gouging.

In a truly cooperative system, where all enterprises are owned by their workers who each have an equal vote in their administration, this tendency toward consolidation moves the market towards a system where there is a single productive enterprise encompassing all productive forces, which represents an ownership that is all working people, and has a customer base that is all people. In short… It's central planning.

So why go through the violent shock of DotP when you could just let the system evolve on it's own accord from market socialism?

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Because that would be retarded.

I didn't even imply that.

don't you dare bullshit me
MLs are not against end consumer market as a distribution mechanism and socially necessary labor valorization mechanism
Cockshott has spoonfed this point in his book pretty nicely
SU had end consumer market

where the real devil is hiding, is the factors market
and precisely labor market if we're talking about unemployment
in a market economy firm needs to make a profit to survive, so what is the source of profit?

also any claim that elimination of factors market would cause a coordination problem are baseless
nobody proven that effect of diseconomies of scale exist, or that it cannot be mitigated effectively
hell we had vertically integrated capitalist firms that owned all production chain from iron and coal production to retail network and it worked just fine even before modern computer age

Not always, thanks to the wonders of credit who owns said debt.

The same problems present themselves, strikes could still happen, most likely for political reasons. Ironically enough, the yugoslav example is striking. Workers in the south were often frustrated by what they saw as the fruits of their labor being sent up to the less resource endowed north, often causing strikes and other political tensions that blew up in the civil war.

Well, I'm sorry, but there are people who think along these lines, cough, leftcoms, cough tankies cough

this is historically what happened. Many early states in what is now india adopted this practice.

If you take the argument that democracy should be centered on the workplace (a very market socialist one if there ever was) you're conceding much of the ground on producing things for exchange versus use value, since that requires production decisions to be made by consumers, not atomized workplaces.

It's an interesting fact that the only actually well thought out system of planned socialism admits to having all the same faults you accuse of market socialism.

the history of the USSR and the communist bloc tells us otherwise.

This isn't something I just pulled out of a hat. Single party states have been historically much more unstable than liberal ones, for this very reason. A similar dynamic has always been at work between the market and the state, something goes wrong in the market, people look to the state for answers, and vice versa, remove that dynamic, you may run into problems.

I never proposed the system he refuted, and even if I had his conclusions were off topic and nonsensical. I don't give a shit about "Asiatic governments", and they aren't connected to anything I've said, and his "criticism" of a state/market is borderline sage worthy on its own. You're acting like I'm being unfair to him, when I honestly should've posted a shitty reaction image and left.

I'm gonna act like I didn't see this post, let's start over user. What you're saying is getting further and further away from what I'm thinking.
I don't think Market Socialism is good, why do you think Market Socialism is good?

Well, it would help quite a bit if you would outline what you ARE thinking.

As far as "sage worthy arguements" you've haven't made a single argument thus far.

I think a major problem with the market is the competition in and of itself. When workers compete on the market, it drives their wages down. This happens as the Capitalists seeks higher profits, which is forced by competition, as greater and greater amounts of Capital are required to out compete others. Conditions and others items are driven down as well. These things are some of the worst parts of Capitalism, and I can't help but think a cooperative trying to get a competitive edge wouldn't start edging towards Capitalist system, as they started paying more specialized workers more and others less to create more incentives for competitive edges.

I don't deny that competition is a negative force in the Free Market system but under Market Socialism the democratic organisation of cooperatives is intended to prevent abuses of power by workers in higher up positions just like this. Now while I don't doubt that competition might result in such abuses for the sake of success on the Market, in an efficient cooperative it would still be in the power of the majority of workers to take legal action against their exploiters to dissuade them from doing so.

Yes, and? Your system still collapsed.

Wrong. Think about environmental planning, how would you for example reduce carbon emissions. In a market socialist system you can only set it by second order planning like cap and trade, which is hard to enforce and at the end of the day you have no idea how much or if you have reduced pollution due to the inherent information asymmetries in any market system. If you knew anything about economic computability you would know that the price vector (market) is only a subspace of the true flows of the in-kind economy. Its only possible to work out a mathematical solution to for example, reduce carbon producing fuels across the economy by 2% per year, when the state directly owns the means of production and is connected to production facilties thru an information network. This is what you market socialists dont get: a market is simply a network, only a much slower one that never really is guaranteed to converge on an optimal solution. Prices can be direct computed (input-output tables) far more quickly using computers than a market in which the price setting could take weeks or even months.
only insomuch as the 'prices' of goods are equal to their labor content. OTOH you have eliminated the circuit of capital and commodity-forms so you no longer have a business cycle, unemployment, or wasted duplicate efforts.
injecting a political argument into economic efficiency, who gets blamed for economic problems is a different subject of ideology. Venezuela still has a market system, do you think anyone in the west says, oh yeah, it has a market, guess we have to blame individuals? oh right they don'teven tho they should
thats why you only vote on the outlines of the plan/big ticket items. The details of implementation are given to a assembly selected through sortition, similar to how the ancient Athenians did it.
Those goods would be sold at market clearing prices, until such point as production could be increased so that parity would be achieved between production(supply) and their demand. therefore, there wouldn't be a problem with shortages such as you had in the eastern blocks. Again, the articles of private consumption are not subject to democracy, merely sold as labor-voucher items.

In a truly cooperative system, where all enterprises are owned by their workers who each have an equal vote in their administration, this tendency toward consolidation moves the market towards a system where there is a single productive enterprise encompassing all productive forces, which represents an ownership that is all working people, and has a customer base that is all people. In short… It's central planning.
agree
agorist detected. If capitalism simply evolved to be market socialist with coops, why hasn't it already? The reason corporations under capitalism are hierarchical and privately owned isn't because they simply want to be dicks, its because that is the most efficient way of extracting surplus value. The corporation will force its employees to work harder,longer, for less pay and fire more of them while a cooperative which gives extra wages to its employees will have less surplus to reinvest. Therefore 10/10 times given a totally free market, a corporation will outcompete the coop every single time, which is what happened in real life with very few exceptions.

A government would still exist. It would tax people and set laws like pollution regulations

Co-ops have failed because they cant get credit. Private companies rely on it all the time. They ought to be more efficient because every worker has a stake. They know they are their own boss and must self-drive and that their jobs depend on this. They cant drag their feet because they know the boss isnt paying attention, and they dont want to because they get to keep all they produce. They also know exactly how well or badly the business is doing because they will be involved some way in managing.

Coops also found it hard to compete because the workers did not have the capacity to manage the company. Mondragon deals with this by having a college they send their workers to for various purposes. For a system broadly a government could operate such a college, or it could help prepare children for the task ahead during childhood education.

It is outright dangerous to fight in order to make capitalism more comfortable rather than fight to get rid of it altogether, you only strengthen it in the end.

I am not saying all the labour struggles focusing upon things such as 8 hour work days and living wages and safe working conditions was wrong, I just think we can't stop when we find ourselves "comfortable enough" with wage slavery, we need to keep pushing and pushing until there is nowhere left to push and we've outright seized the means of production and abolished the wage system altogether.

By fighting only for comfortable capitalism we'll find ourselves waking up in a Brave New World kind of scenario where the people are hopelessly exploited yet drugged and deluded and distracted enough to enjoy it (honestly kind of like today's times). That will only make it exponentially more difficult to get people to act and do what is necessary to build a just society.

t. didnt read the post
explained how you will never get the same level of certainty or efficiency from regulation/second order planning than from first order planning.
my argument wasn't based on credit, it was that in order to compete a cooperative has to behave like a regular corporation or it will die out.

👏production👏for👏market👏exchange👏is👏still👏capitalism👏

Go back to Twitter cretin

sorry, I'm trying to speak newfag so that the market "socialists" can understand

You're really just making your side look even dumber.

Maybe i dont understand what you're saying. But what im saying is that the only measure of a companies efficiency is whether or not it goes extinct. Co-ops failed because they couldnt get bank loans. Private companies get bank loans all the time for different reasons, sometimes just because the interest rates are good.

WSDEs find it very hard to get credit. But they could get it from a friendly government, or from public institutions or investors who would find it advantageous to ensure the continued existence of the enterprise.

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Yugoslavia's collapse, caused by western infiltration, bribing, and the funding of nationalists, had nothing to do with the failures of its economic system. The only true failures that came about were when the IMF forced Yugoslavia to change its system to exploit its workers in true capitalist style. This, and when the country took loans from the IMF in the first place, which despite affecting Yugoslavia negatively, did not reflect their implemented system until the completely forced changes happened, something the country could not work against.

LMAO, WHAT? Yugoslavia's economic issues began the first few years of the market reforms of Tito. It's how they got so much unemployment and why they had to get the debt in the first place.