Why exactly doesn't the "roads" argument against "an"caps work not apply to actual anarchists...

The idea of "creating new desires" is something we should absolutely try to curb; advertising has been a cancer to both our society and the planet in general. But I can hardly see the harm if something genuinely new is invented; if people like it, then people like it, and it's good that we have it; we weren't "creating" a desire when we made something that people liked.

Again, a GOOD road. As in one that won't degrade into mud after a few rainstorms, won't become too slippery in icy conditions, isn't designed to make a puddle, is made of the eight materials, banks slightly in the turns, et cetera.

Shoot, at least "An"Caps have the argument that muh free market will consolidate resources into companies. I fail to see how any crucial infrastructure could be created in a purely AnCom society.

You cannot exist without a state. Stop it with your 19th century agrarian masturbations it is the current year.

celtic roads didn't have thousands of cars driven by terrible drivers per day

Why? It's just more work.

see

fuck off lumpen scum some of us want actual good living standards

wtf I love social democracy now

Oh no, living in a sub dunbar agrarian permaculture community is a total nightmare. I've spent three hours fishing today! I wish I was working forty point five hours a week in a noisy factory in that town from the beginning of Stalker, Stalin save me!

Social democracy entails not abolishing bourgeois rent (afaik), and I most certainly wasn't advocating not abolishing bourgeois rent.

do you know who the government pays to build and maintain these roads?

private construction contractors.

The only example i can think of based off of personal experience where the government does its own dirty work that doesn't involve putting people in cages or watching them thru their webcams is CalTrans, the California highway development borough. Even then the workers make only 3/5's of what a private contractor makes and the only reason the state keeps them around is so that they can put the money that would go towards professional private companies and funnels it back into itself and the public servants pockets.

Its almost as if California is monopolizing a "public service" market to serve its own needs at the expense of the public.

really gets the noggin joggin

What about the logistics, you need a army of men to build a road or railway, that needs a constant supply line along with a ridged plan so everything is where it is needed when it is needed (and so everyone is on the same page).

The point is that it doesnt actually save the public money, CAlifornias marginal tax of 13.5 percent and the money saved by CalTrans doesnt affect that at all. It is litterally just a system for the lawmakers and their lobbyists to funnel public money into their pockets. The state workers are hurt by it, the contractors who lose their jobs are hurt by it, and the taxpayer is hurt by it.

Fuck man, its the same thing with the California Conservation Core, Californias replacement for the emergency response and forest service sectors. They pay previously un-hireable and impovershed young adults they can be no older than 25 "minimum wage" to do the jobs of both the private AND FEDERAL sectors at a fraction of the cost. They literally hole anybody stupid and poor enough to work for them in 8-man barracks so that they can work from 5am-4pm the hours from 5-6 and 2-4 are """voluntary""" but you will get fired if you dont """volunteer""", and take $450 out of their already minimum wage paychecks for as "fees." It is literally California exploiting the poor, taking jobs from workers, and exploiting anybody stupid enough to live in that "progressive" tax sinkhole of a state.

Why do you need a railway?

Gee whiz, sign me right the fuck up.

No one likes liberals, especially not this board. But you've gotta be smoking somethin' if you think things would be better under unbridled capitalism.

Found your problem, agricuck.

Sigh.

How else are you going to reach the 4 trillion tonne-kilometers that the USSR got to without railways?

you see the thing about capitalism is that if you dont like something, you can say "fuck it" and take your money somewhere else.

You dont like the price that walmart has for onions, and you think you can get a better deal at the korean market a couple of blocks down? Fuck it, i should get to know my asia neighbors better anyway.

You don't like that the hotel room you payed $100 for is crawling with insects? Fuck it, ruin the managers night and demand a refund. He wont give you a refund? Take your case to social media, let everyone know just what a scumbag he is.

Love low-price "ironic" tee's but hate how the company exploit poor indonesian's and are literally a human rights nightmare? Boycott the products, let your opinion be known, get as many of your peers to refuse their service as possible and wait until they give.

But the government doesnt give you a choice, you see. even "
""democratic""" ones.

Hate those pot-holes on the road to work, as well as the tax hike the government pushed to fix this very problem. Tough luck kiddo, the petticoats have decided your opinions are against the need of the "greater good."

You are a small business owner, and the government just passed a bill saying you have to provide adequate insurance for all of your employees, even ones that only work here as a side-job and only expect to work here for a month at the most? Good luck making those insurance payments there, friend! so what if you have to close your business and fire all of your employees? you were already an evil capitalist nazi for not guaranteeing them insurance for even the smallest amount of labour and didn't deserve the products of the labour you put in starting and running the business as a result.

You dont like the fact that your government is using your tax money to drone-stike poor brown children, despite the government saying that "its for the good of democracy"? You are just an un-patriotic piece of shit, and probably a terroist too ::DDDD:D.

no, you dont get to say where your tax money goes

no, you dont get a say in how much of your money the government is entitled to

no, switching "providers" doesn't actually fix the problem, you are just trading one exploiter for another.

so much autism but this has to be the most blatant

Yes this is a viable option for everyone, I'm sure this took you a very long time to come up with. "Just go run and cry to the public. The public is always sitting around with spare money, time, and interest to help some random asshole get a refund from another random asshole. :D"

Really great theory you got going on there. What could go wrong?

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actual anarchists aren't opposed to organizing themselves to do things for the community. Ancapistan wouldn't have roads unless the fuedal lord CEO decides to build one.

First off, checked.

Ahh, the Portland Anarchist. We hardly knew ye.

You dumbass. Real life doesn't work like an econ textbook. I'd step through each of these one-by-one if I had time, but it's late and I wanna get some rest.

Do us both a favor: Take your post, touch it up however you want, and post it as a new thread. Invite others to challenge your viewpoint, and try to be cordial if they disagree with/refute your points.

You have an eye for government corruption, which is good. But even in an ideal situation, where for-profit organizations replace the state, your method for fixing it is largely unfeasible. And what's more, you seem to misunderstand several concepts about Marxism.

Its not about suing his pants off or something as costly as that, its about hurting a crooked business mans reputation. Showing how he is willing and able to blatantly rip off his customers for a few extra dollars. Do you mean to tell me you don't have the 5 minutes it would take to write out a negative review?

why would you take the time to make a reply if you don't want to even bother to correct me using stuff like analogies or resources? its just kind of lazy, and the whole "you are so childish" shtick makes you seem like you don't have a proper retort but your pride obliges you to reply in a way that's non-committal.

It's not like the knowledge of road building will disappear once we organize society horizontally. I'm guessing road projects will look a bit like today, just that orders will come from communities to the directly instead of government. There will still be experts and highly skilled project managers that move around on different peojects, just that they cooperate on a more mutual and communist basis.

Also, capitalism is not a good example of efficiently building roads, places that capital doesn't care about are left with old and pot hole filled roads, while rich areas and places where goods need to be transported get top tier road infrastructure and maintenance. To not speak of the multitude of third world countries where road building is left to utterly corrupt and badly functioning states

Just kys you obnoxious faggot

because it didn't apply to the ancaps in the first palce

Walmart is infamous for their predatory pricing and forcing out loyal stores and competitors out of business. This partially comes from their economies of scale and massive advertising.
That's on the same level as saying "you can end slavery by not buying slave plantation cotton". An industry-wide boycott has never succeeded in ending the industry, nor should anyone be satisfied with a simple boycott when humans are treated like slaves. Ultimately, the West depends on sweatshop-tier labor to provide for its standard of living, and the system would simply collapse if they weren't paid a subsistence wage or worked under better conditions.
Small business owner is a weaselword term, but if we are talking about the ideal business owner that works long hours and is pays himself as much as his two employees, then ya, it's a shitty deal for him, but it's also a shitty deal for his employees who can only get healthcare through insurance.
And that's the key issue for Leftism: exploitation. Sure, the market can be create at giving choices and responding to desires (although desires are more often than not manipulated), but the key issue is how Capitalism treats the workers, not the consumers. Under Capitalism, you have to have a master and you have to be exploited by this master, the only choice you have is you being able to pick your master, which of course is as much of a choice as being able to elect your politician. Saying that the system is okay because you can become a business owner yourself or be self-employed is like saying slavery was okay because you could buy yourself out of it. Both are/were very rare instances and not viable for most individuals under that system.

Full employment policy means work is easier, and is not pain, at most boredom.

Ancaps declare that everyone will be selfish, ancoms that everyone will participate in the community. They might be WRONG but there is at least an explanation of where the road comes from, the community builds it. Whereas for the ancap, road only gets built where a private citizen will profit.

completly wrong

why do you think the community can't build roads in ancap socities if ancap literally implies that all ranges of anarchist communities are represented, while ancom communities can only represent themselves, because they like people LIKE YOU daily prove can only tolerate themselves and therefore will never ever exist

All the great ancap thinkers have gone on about the need to purge undesirables from ancap communities

Have you considered reading the Bread Book and Mutual Aid to unfuck your mind from all this capitalistic ideology? You sound like someone who saw the "gorillions" argument against the USSR and said "hey, that sounds awesome!".

GMIL-socialdemocracyatgunpoint.png

what utter horseshit

this is also not even related to the immideate topic I just talked about

here is how roads get built + criticism of ancoms

you literally just said connected building roads to commiting genocide, you fucking maniac

roads were built before the existence of states

anarchy =/= no organization

People are going to build roads because roads are useful to them. They're going to coordinate with other people because it's useful to work with larger groups to undertake larger projects.

The reason "muh roads" is an argument specific to ancaps and lolberts is that a company is not the same as a person. While roads are useful to people and people will choose to help build/maintain them, companies don't have a broader view of long-term benefit and will push off this kind of responsibility. They have to do this because they exist within the market, a competitive environment, and the trait of selflessness will get selected out of the corporate "gene pool".

The argument doesn't really have anything to do with anarchism/statism. It's actually a criticism of capitalism, but the people who use it tend to know too little about the subject to recognize this.

To put a finer point on this, "But who will build the roads?" is really just another way of saying, "Capitalism can't into public property, so it needs a state to build a functional society."

Aahahaha

look here

You don't have to believe an argument to comment on it you fucking neanderthal.

It doesn't imply this.
How exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that anarcho-capitalism necessarily implies tolerance of all anarchisms, but anarcho communism doesn't?

sure, you are right

it's the literal definition

Because that is the very definition of ancap/voluntarism, while on the other hand ancoms bully, oppress and include ancaps.
Theoretically it's only barely possible. Practically in most cases Ancoms specifically exclude and hate heavily on voluntarists.

What then, is the "literal definition" of anarcho-capitalism?

Yes, anarchists do tend to have disagreements with hierarchy and coercion.

well from my point of view you guys practice coercion xDDD

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whoops seems like we have a state, but as long as we dont call it one, it's oke :3

rawr let's shoot some people :3c

Vehicular roads would be increasingly redundant anyway.

Now, as to how we build good Railways…

Not how it works, and it's telling how you don't even deny the accusation of slavery.

because it's stupid, one of the first princples of voluntarism is self-ownership

there isnt anything more opposite to anarcho-capitalism than slavery

one of the core criticisms of the state is that taxation is theft AND slavery, because in my country for example, people work MORE THAN HALF OF THE YEAR for the state

saying shit like that is as ridiculous as the other guy who linked building roads with commiting genocide

also not an argument

really REALLY pathetic response

Holla Forums really lost its edge

...

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

You say that but capitalism requires workers to work part of the time for free. You already grasp this concept because you say
The same is done in capitalism through wages instead of taxes. People are paid according to time but expected to use that time to create significantly more value than what they're paid.

[citation needed]

inb4 total misunderstanding of a >50% income tax band under a progressive tax system.

You mean in after. He already made this mistake.

use the terms I have used, or just continue talking with someone else, because apparently I am not part of this conversation

I have shown you evidence. You guys have assumed numerous things, the least of which is that voluntarism, the very definition of peaceful coexistance requires genocide.

wrong

what you said is not equal to taxation

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

heh, nothing personell kids

smell you later

People can literally just get together and build a road, currencycuck

I did: Not understanding how progressive taxation works and assuming that if you hit the 50% band, you pay 50% of all income instead of just 50% of the income over that amount.

(i.e. if the tax band is 0% for $0 to $10000, then 50% above that, and you earn $15000 then you pay $2500 tax, not $7500. It's hilariously common for people to assume that the minute you hit $10001 you're paying $5000.50 tax.)

The problem with roads under anarcho-capitalism isn't that they won't get built; ancaps can truthfully point to plenty of privately owned/maintained roads.

The problem is that there's generally only one good way to get from point A to point B, so whoever owns and builds a major road can charge as much as they like..No one can possibly start a competing road at a lower price - sure they could theoretically build one in parallel, but travelers have to bisect the other road at some point (and pay the extortionate price) if they wanted to get to anything on the other side.

It's an example of market failure.

I did though. I fucking quoted it from the other guy's post.

I didn't say it was equal. I said it was another method of taking value from people.
You were referring to anarcho-capitalism. I was referring to capitalism in general. Anarcho-capitalism conceptually falls under the umbrella of capitalism. I don't need to criticize ancap specifically when my criticism applies generally to all capitalism.
The same is done in capitalism through wages instead of taxes. People are paid according to time but expected to use that time to create significantly more value than what they're paid.
No, that's correct. This is where profit comes from. You put the materials, the MOP, and the labor together, and the labor uses the MOP to turn the materials into a product. The value of the product vs. the value of the raw materials is the value added by labor. Capitalists take a portion of that value because the MOP is their property and so they have a "right" to the value labor generates using the MOP. The only reason capitalists pay laborers anything is because they must in order to keep getting laborers to work their MOP. The profit is the difference between what labor generates and what labor is paid. This is how capitalists turn M into M' (money into more money). They have to do it by exploiting the workers. You can call this system voluntary all you want but that doesn't make it true (pic related).

No you did not:

these are the two posts

neither of you said anything except: "he's wrong lol"

You can just build your competing road above my road. The free market works!

You've still not provided any source on 50% of income going to the state. Indeed, you've not even provided a country name.

That's the thing, it does. Anarchism is just shit period.

The actual problem against "muh roads" in ancapistan is that there is no reason to build roads outside of private empires.

Why would anyone build public roads that competitors can use, nobody can claim ownership over, and you have to pay for maintenance of?

germany, friend :)

Congratulations, you correctly identified who actually handles the asphalt.

Now, can you tell me who actually decides where roads are supposed to go, how they get funded, how big they are, and when to build them?
You know, the vast majority of skilled labor that goes into road building?

Hilarious.
Pure ideology.
Lol
This is such incredibly pure ideology I should have on gloves and eye protection. You and your friends will never, ever effect big businesses.
But businesses do.
Yeah, lmao, who needs roads. Fuck these poor flags not being able to afford massive infrastructure while working on minimum wage. and even less in ancapistan.
lmao you were only working here a month now die already. What do you mean you had to work here or starve? lmao you should have chosen to be rich.
lol
I'll notify the Indians they can have the U.S back right away. Might as well trace lineages back to the stone age to find out who 'truly' deserves Europe.
Almost no one here wants this, and all you want to do is make the provider a huge business.

not an argument

Lol

MUH INDIANS!

And if I know one thing is that Europeans don't deserve their own continent. Heh, thought you cornered me by reversing the "Indian" argument back to me?

Well fuck you then. I will just be logically inconsistent and deny Europeans their own countries anyway.

truly one can only laugh at such a performance …. to not cry