Newfag here, excuse my stupid question, but why is classpol better than idpol? I've noticed that idpol is frowned upon...

newfag here, excuse my stupid question, but why is classpol better than idpol? I've noticed that idpol is frowned upon, but why? Are all forms of idpol bad? How are class politics not idpol?

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Unlike other forms of identity, class is objective and has a material basis. A born-male person can identify as a woman and a mixed-race person can identify more strongly with one of their racial backgrounds, but a proletarian worker cannot "identify" as a member of the capitalist class. Class relations are real-world relations, set in stone.

Furthermore, other forms of oppression in their modern manifestation stem from capitalism and thus the only way to meaningfully address them is to end capitalism. The economic system of a given society preserves old social relations.

Knowing this, and knowing how divided the working class is along meaningless lines, it is only sensible and pragmatic to suggest that we disregard other identities and unite around the one that 90% of us share, so that we might actually overthrow capitalism and start to end all forms of oppression.

pic related

SON

It's not a hyrda, man, just a good ol' fashioned monster :^)

It's not bad to talk about or act upon identity-based forms of cultural repression, but one must always keep in mind the underlying class structure that both allows and gives reason for such repression to even exist.

For example, you can point out all the various ways women are or might be subjugated. But never forget why it is; namely, production reasons. It is very beneficial to have a part of the population performing all household labor for no cost at all, hence the social programming to train women to exhibit subservient housewife behavior. And even though the stay-at-home mom as a default family arrangement is quickly vanishing in most of the US, the residual social-behavioral effects are still very much alive.

The real answer, despite what anyone is going to tell you about memes, is that they play into each other deeply. Political identity issues are born from class issues but not fully controlled by them.


Are you ten or do you sincerely think race, sex, whatever, is all in their head and has NO material basis? You even said, a born male person can only identify female (get over it btw) does this not prove that sex is a material reality? Like I said, real reasons > memes.
Oppression in its modern form for example, absolutely does not stem from capitalism, that's a lie, capitalism perpetuates class but it certainly didn't start the divide. Ending capitalism demonstrably does not fix every problem, and it's been shown that mindlessly chasing an imagined future world without thinking about every other hierarchy only has the effect of creating dystopian hellscapes. Learn from the past. You're only repeating the same mistakes over and over but there are good reasons people hate the socialists of the past. Very good reasons.

It's clearly a 9-headed dragon.

Goddamn what a shitty pic

Identity oppression that liberals are concerned with is indeed largely manufactured, because liberals are alienated from actual suffering in general. All they care about is feelings being hurt.
We are not liberals. This lecture don't work on us.

What about right wing identity politics?

All of idpol is right wing idpol

They are particularists and idealists, so whether or not their beliefs are based in reality is irrelevant.

Irrelevant and misleading. Class is a material reality, so are sex and race, they're not important in a vacuum but they're easy to show you. Your idealistic pipe dream where once the workers gain control of the means of production they will suddenly stop being racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever else, is just what I said, and idealistic pipe dream. The reality of the situation is that these methods of division, racism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism especially, will be used by a centralized authority to distract and maintain class struggle after the revolution.
Sounds sort of like mr ivory tower.
You stupid piece of faggot, you advocate failed, outdated, shitty, broken theories, and you denounce all legitimate criticism of them as liberalism because you're stupid, but that's not liberalism, it's a good portion of the radical, revolutionary left.

Interesting claim, care to elaborate?

Is the modern left with their minority idpol right wing too?

Liberalism is a right-wing phenomenon, yes.

Yes. They're reactionaries.


That's not what liberalism even is.

Yes, it's absolute lunacy to think capitalist ideology will start to dissolve after the end of capitalism. And no, modern identity was not the same now as it was before capitalism. The abstractions change arbitrarily based on the history and demography of a given society that porky wants to control. The modern concept of "white nationalism" would be seen as incoherent babbling by European nationalists a century ago.
You cannot oppose an ideology by legitimizing it. That is what anti-idpol is about.
Let me know when liberals care more about mass incarceration and the financial degradation of historically black communities than some random idiot on social media wearing blackface. I'm also pretty sure that liberals have forgotten that native reservations even exist, but goddamn they sure are ready to hop on board to complain about the name of a football team.
I'm not an M-L-M, and like most people would rather be apolitical than a post-structuralist.

It's absolute lunacy to call it simply "capitalist ideology" when it has existed for many years before capitalism was ever a dream in someone's mind.
I know. That doesn't make them any less effective at being tools of control and counter-revolution. In fact them being so arbitrary and shitty is why they're so good at being counter-revolutionary divisive attitudes that stick around.
While that's true, you also can't oppose it by ignoring it. You'll find most left-idpol is born as a counter blow to right-idpol, and while building up new structures like the liberals do is a waste, I see nothing wrong with negation of the current dominant forms of identity politics and identity division.
Well, I don't know why you keep trying to make me defend liberals. Not everyone who thinks you're stupid is a liberal. I do care about mass incarceration. I do care quite a bit about native reserves, though I've been called idpol for it.

How it exists today is shaped by capitalism, though. A socialist or communist society would at least make it extremely easier to confront cultural biases, because culture do not shape economics; economics shape culture, because human society is built around the material relations that form based on the needs and wants of people that need resources to survive.
And when we speak against identity politics, we are talking about these divisive ideological screeds, not merely acknowledging that identity exists. It is a resistance against politics of identity, in which identity is seen as the basis of human society in itself.
You don't actually think we don't believe racism and sexism exist, do you? Stop believing everything that legbeards on Reddit say.
Negation of identity politics is a revision of how identity relates to human society. "Left"-wing and right-wing identity politics are, in fact, philosophically identical in most respects–the real difference between them is particularist, purely a matter of personal feelings.
Giving people lectures on how everything they believe is retarded usually turns them off to your own views, in case you didn't know. People are just tired of being browbeaten over identity and it's understandable to be sick of it when liberals actively try to ruin any left wing political clique that doesn't follow their post-structuralist ideology (not even exaggerating, some kids here tried to establish a Reddit presence and some sociopaths went out of their way to get the site admins to give them control over it).

How low can you go? Picking up the fruits that have fallen and decomposed already.

How exactly society views identity is a lot more nuanced than that. Burgerland does not represent the entirety of human history, or even all modern norms.

Iran, for example, is quite hostile toward gays, but fully recognizes transsexuality.