Should we raise the minimum wage and why is the answer no?

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That's funny, I saw the AP reporting that the $15 wage in Seattle wasn't working.

sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/editorials/sd-minimum-wage-seattle-san-diego-20170627-story.html

I think I said this in the earlier thread. The jobs that are being gained are in the rich techie areas of Seattle to cater to the constant increase of Amazon workers. The places Amazon workers never go, South Seattle for example, have been hurt tremendously by the new minimum wage seeing job losses and hours cut. Basically the only thing the minimum wage increase has done is shift supply to the left while demand went to the right as the population in the city grew. This ended up with the same quantity of jobs but the jobs are more densely located to where the new demand is. Also everything got more expensive too. Kinda fucked up but the people who benefited from this minimum wage law are like 99% whites. I'm actually a fan of it too.

Damn it's almost like the press in the west is centered around molding popular opinion to fit whatever it is the bourgeoisie want.

evans.uw.edu/policy-impact/minimum-wage-study

t. porky for over a century

Why ask for a raise when you can SEIZE THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION and have it all?

That's impossible in first world countries like America where the police is basically a military force to be reckoned with. The third world is the only place where capitalism can be openly challenged.

washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/06/27/seattles-higher-minimum-wage-is-actually-working-just-fine/

upjohn.org/publications/upjohn-institute-press/what-does-minimum-wage-do
irle.berkeley.edu/files/2017/Seattles-Minimum-Wage-Experiences-2015-16.pdf
nelp.org/content/uploads/Minimum-Wage-Basics-Polling.pdf
ap-gfkpoll.com/featured/findings-from-our-latest-poll-15

so theres two studies one saying its bad one saying its good
can anyone get a straight answer?

Yes. Guess which one is getting more press?

The overwhelming body of evidence is that wage increases only hurt corporate profits while substantially improving things for everyone else.

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They're technically right.
Increasing the minimum wage doesn't do anything except pacify workers, it does virtually nothing to increase their value of life because their living expenses increase proportionately to the wage increase making the wage increase worth the same as no wage increase. A better way to understand this is countries like Australia or Canada or cities, where they have high minimum wages but they cannot get products as cheap as Americans can on their lower wage due to a economic factor of economic monetary supply or cities. Simply put, the only way to account for REAL INCOME is by factoring in cost of living expenses, necessities, taxes, etc and then rendering disposable income.

The only good thing about the subprime crisis back in 2007-2008 was watching all those petite bourgsie faggots go bankrupt. I worked at a cell phone store at the time and always loved it when they came in to close their shitty little business accounts.

The material conditions of the local economy in question are really important in viewing how minimum wage increases will effect the job market.

Seattle has seen tremendous growth and is one of the few places in the country where capital is continuing to invest in the city. Amazon has over ten thousand interns iirc from the local news and they're being housed at the UW dorms. The city had to add 3 buses to the route they used since it was so clogged. As the growth of high income earners (relatively since Amazon pays as low as they can) that means that demand rises. In such a market condition this is the perfect time to increase the minimum wage. But there is a caveat. Seattle is a big city but the places the new transplants live/work/play are in just a few neighborhoods. This means that in those places the higher cost to supply services/products is matched with an increased demand. The result of this is that the quantity of jobs will remain the same or even grow but the prices of goods and services provided will increase as well. This lowers demand for those who can't pay but given the explosion of newly made 6 figure techies the supply can still fully meet the demand.

The places these techies do not live/work/play though has to deal with the costs of a higher minimum wage driving up the price of goods and services that they could barely afford before. They can compete in the new job market but given that they are not able to afford to live in the areas that the techies like to live this means they have to incur additional costs in getting to said jobs. Also since the job market is more attractive this means that employers can be more selective in who they hire. This means that they will only hire whites or token minorities who have embraced liberal shit like social justice and not the broke ass niggers in South Seattle.

The berkley one is trash since it treats all of Seattle as if the material conditions are uniform across the city. If you looked at it by neighborhood you can see the rich neighborhoods maintaining or increasing the number of min wage jobs while the poor neighborhoods decreasing and cutting the hours for min wage jobs.

t. seattleite

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Here's a good example

thrillist.com/news/nation/high-earning-tech-workers-cant-afford-rent-in-silicon-valley

Now they're making six figures but that doesn't mean a damn thing where they are. It's like trying to find decent affordable property in San Francisco or Manhattan. No amount of higher wages will fix this because everything increases proportionately.

>First, their data exclude workers at businesses that have more than one location; in other words, while workers at a standalone mom-and-pop restaurant show up in their results, workers at Starbucks and McDonald’s don’t. Almost 40 percent of workers in Washington state work at multi-location businesses, and since Seattle’s minimum wage increase has been larger at large businesses than at small ones — right now, a worker at a company with more than 500 employees is guaranteed $13.50 an hour, while a worker at a company with fewer than 500 employees is guaranteed only $11 an hour — these workers’ exclusion from the study’s results is an especially germane problem (note that low-wage workers in Seattle have had an incentive to switch from small firms to large firms since the minimum wage started rising). In earlier work, in fact, the University of Washington team’s results were different depending on whether these workers were included in their analysis; including them made the effects of the minimum wage look more positive.

Wages aren't why real estate is so expensive in SV.

like their main fucking argument is that the average is higher now so things must be gooder. That kind of shit is fucking useless when you are doing an average where there is a huge divide between the rich and the poor. Who the fuck benefited from the average. Oh those living in the richer areas of Seattle hmmmmm

You are truly the most loathsome type of faggot

Who are you quoting?

Yes it is. It is the nature of capital and supply and demand and a perfect example of the floor and capital. If everybody makes, say, 150 USD per hour minimum in x location, what do you think would happen? It's how gentrification happens as well. It does nothing.

guess what neighborhoods those multi-location businesses are in. Hint it's not the poor areas.

What was that about not poor areas?

He's not wrong. People like to blame porky banksters and they aren't wrong but remember the core of the problem was because they purposely gave out loans to people who were financially irresponsible although some would say they were forced to because of certain housing laws by Clinton taking the borrowed capital of their own free will and lived like bourgeoises on credit despite knowing they cannot truly live as bourgeois.

Related
youtube.com/watch?v=R3ZJKN_5M44

FTFY. Fuck off carpetbagger.

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The reason why neolibs love minimum wage increases is that it increases the value of their demand. An increase in wages has to be equated with an increase in price and those who can pay said price are those who hold more power over a society. It's just a form of neo-feudalism in a way. Those who can afford and even appreciate the increase in prices are the aristocrats since the increase in prices leads to there being fewer buyers increasing their powers. Those who toil to produce these goods and services are the warriors who are giving up their blood and sweat for being just relatively a few % better off after the general increase in the price of goods and services they consume is accounted for versus their increase in wages. And those who can't snag these suddenly much more valuable min wage jobs are the niggers. Sadly they are often really niggers so in a way this entire system is actually good. Forget all the complaining I've been doing I'm going to be a neolib and enjoy the life of a slave owner without any of the ethical hang ups. Going to hire some illegals to clean my house/yard/ass next

If prices increase with wages then there is little downside to wage increases. Of course we all know that is not the case, which is why porky is so afraid of them.

Neolibs hate that shit, it's the socdems you're thinking of.
The rest of your post beyond the first sentence is retarded. Learn basic economics.

Are you retarded?

He was telling a story about a contractor. What do contractors do for a living? Go ahead put 2 and 2 together.

hotair.com/archives/2017/06/25/mcdonalds-stock-soaring-automation/
wow well at least you tried for one of those clever zingers like all the redditors love
you fucking retard

Cities have a natural problem of the most extreme divide between rich and poor that exists but somehow the liberal retards uphold it as the best thing ever. What the fuck is wrong with them?

I was replied to already ITT, multiple times.

None of them can ever answer me when I ask them how high the minimum wage should be and why don't they seize the means of production.

There shouldn't be a wage in the first place

What does this have to do with the fact that these low wage jobs that would benefit from a wage increase don't even show up in the study being argued

Older people have a hard time with those but I guess that isn't a factor for investors who want the millennial aka the largest market.

I wonder what female candidate ran on a campaign with the promise of increasing the federal minimum wage hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………………

you gotta learn how elasticity works my small brain friend and figure out why minimum wage workers are ALWAYS going to be more elastic than big businesses so will eat the majority of the increase of prices due to an increase of wages.

I unironically believe this. Pay should be decided on merit at least. Why should lazy Chad who texts most of his shift get paid the same as the little guy who actually puts effort into his work?

eater.com/a/starbucks-income-map
wow its sad I know more about the material conditions of workers and business than some apparently fake marxist who has never read a fucking book

Every fucking time.

More like production for exchange should be abolished and replaced with production for personal use exclusively.

And you need to learn what elasticity means when it comes to economics. It applies to commodities and the tendency of consumers to change buying habits dependent upon price. For something to be more elastic it means that as price goes up or down consumers are more likely to buy more or less of that commodity. Inelastic means that a change in price for an item has a reduce or near non-existent change in purchases i.e. Meds, no-one is gona choose to buy less insulin or thyroid meds because it went up 5 or 500 percent.

Again it doesn't matter that a location is in a 'rich' neighborhood what matters is that it is staffed by low wage workers who would have benefited from wage increases but are not counted because of some arbitrary decision to not include businesses with multiple locations.

It's kinda sad because the ratio how tax burdens are paid between suppliers and consumers is pretty basic economics but I guess if you've never read a book you wouldn't understand this.

Hint: It involves elasticity of demand and supply ;)

What does tax burdens have to do with anything we are talking about increases in worker wages.

Maybe if you could stay on topic you would realize that ;)

Are you fucking retarded or did you just pretend that the part that says workers left jobs in poorer areas to work in wealthier ones doesn't exist

The location doesn't fucking matter you massive dipshit

Holy fuck you're so stupid you should honestly feel embarrassed

More stupid bullshit coming out of your idiot head. An increase in wages equated with an increase in price? Do you know how fucking wrong you are you stupendous retard?

Even if I had the time to explain why you're wrong you'd be too stupid to understand it anyway.

Dumbfuck idiot nazi.

She wanted 12 dollars an hour which is barely more then what a minimum wage worker was paid in 1968 adjusted for inflation. And to top it off she was essentially forced into it by the popularity of the Sanders campaign and the fact that she was one of the most unpopular presidential candidates ever fielded by a major party. Initially she said and the corporate dems started out saying they supported wanted a 9-10 dollar minimum wage which is barely keeping up with the effect of inflation. She spent most of her campaign trying to avoid talking about economic issues wherever possible because she was far from even being a social democrat. When asked whether Sanders changed her opinion on certain issues or pushed her leftward on certain policies she flat-out denied it.

That's pretty much all the proof anyone should need that she's not even a mild social democrat but in fact was forced into it by the stirring among the captive constituency of the democrats.

The answer is the same as the reason we should lock up every black person. Science.

OP go fuck yourself

A king who fights his shitty little wars alongside his subjects is still a tyrant. The same is true of the bourgeoisie under capitalism.

Source should be "Science board, 1999".

How can this tell us anything about the country as a whole? If wages don't rise everywhere then companies will just move. And this will happen. I think this is just evidence that raising wages in a single city doesn't help that city. There real problem with our country is no one is working and money isn't worth shit. My granpa supported a family on minimum wage as a single household earner. Shit is different now.

tax burdens increase the cost of production. wage increases increase the cost of production. Who pays the cost of this is decided between the elasticity of demand and supply. A min wage worker does not have the same elasticity of demand as a 6 figure techie. Elasticity of demand is made from all participants in a market. Who does this hurt more.

the people who get hired to work in rich neighborhoods for more valuable min wage jobs are the children of the middle/upper middle class. When employers have more applicants they can be more exacting in their standards. Keewon from rainier isn't going to get a job over some ditzy bitch from laurelhurst. Man I feel like I'm talking to a middle schooler lmfao.

neolibs are willing to eat the cost of minimum wage increases in the states since all of their profits comes from exploiting the low wages in the third world. Not a hard concept to get there bud

Third worlders work for way less than the current US federal minimum wage. If that was the issue then the US would have no jobs.

manufacturing and service jobs are pretty different things friendo. A neoliberal doesn't want to get a massage from some swarthy south east asian who has broken their body so many times from an unsafe factory. They want to get messaged by a fucktoy white who was raised on a steady diet of cultural promiscuity and pop songs

the person who does your yard?
$50 a job mexican w/e
the person who does your personal shopping for you?
someone who gets paid enough where there is no longer any hangups in making them treat you like a beloved family member since you tip good

I do.

we should abolish the minimum wage

and also all the other wages too

Universal Basic Income is a much better solution.

Just wondering, what was your opinion of the minimum wage increase before learning this?

You mean, WELFARE?

Every fucking political party should just rename welfare to universal basic income already. There's already the minimum they get from welfare it makes absolutely no fucking difference whatsoever.

Journalism is dead

'no'

Just what is so hard to grasp about the fact that when labor productivity is higher then higher wages can be paid and capitalists can still make profits? US imperialism profits from exploiting both its 'own' working class at home and those of other countries abroad. Have you ever considered that the reason that neoliberals shill for keeping wages where they are is that the comparatively low-wages and benefits that US workers receive (when compared to other OECD countries) helps maintain these trade advantages? If US manufacturers and farmers didn't export then the trade deficit would be beyond manageable; and there would be no point for anyone abroad to accept the dollar as there would be nothing to buy with it other then financial services, so the country couldn't live on dollar imperialism alone. To say nothing of the fact that the capitalist class needs every penny of what they can squeeze out from both the working class at home and abroad.

Completely untrue. Ever notice all the shilling being done by neoliberals for open borders lately? All their masturbation to immigration creating a panacea of diverse restaurants, massage parlors don't forget those happy endings along with a variety of new services, start-ups and diverse skills that immigrants bring?

The opening of a "super-ladies relaxation" cambodian massage parlor in every town in America is the neoliberal dream. The hard-work will be done by the domestic working class, who doesn't deserve any sympathy because they're racist and antiquated, and newly imported production workers who should just be happy for the opportunity to work in AC sometimes and the freedom to buy their kids McDonalds

You have to have price control with that or else you get businesses raising prices in response to UBI.

Welfare goes to people that meet specific requirements like income or other qualifiers. UBI is to everyone. It's completely different.

Marx BTFO'd the "minimum wage increased are bad :(" argument over a 100 years ago in "Value, price and profit"

Explain

that's not because of the minimum wage increase, that's just business as usual, wage increase or not

Wait, so is higher minimum wage good, or bad for workers?

Mandating a higher minimum wage isn't good unless it's accompanied with additional legislation to prevent firms from cutting hours/benefits/firing people in order to get around having to pay employees more. Either that, or provide enough through public services and welfare that high wages aren't as essential to survival.

Or alternatively we could, you know, seize the means of production and abolish wage labor.

Good for workers. Bad for class consciousness.

This board needs a purge.

I'm sick of these reruns.

As long as the wage increase is more then the resulting inflation it almost always is. The general trend of commodity prices is dowanward in gold terms anyways.

What the fuck, UW? That is some bad methodology right there. Also, why keep the findings secret but publish the conclusion?

Agreed.

Wow, that just explains everything about the UW study, doesn't it?

This is great crypto communist propaganda actually.

citation needed

Latest study: Seattle’s wage law lifted restaurant pay without shrinking jobs
seattletimes.com/business/retail/latest-study-seattles-wage-law-lifted-restaurant-pay-without-shrinking-jobs/

Seattle employers cut hours after latest minimum wage rise, study finds
rawstory.com/2017/06/seattle-employers-cut-hours-after-latest-minimum-wage-rise-study-finds/?comments=disqus

Good worker.

Seattle is a small city of barely 700k. The neighborhoods that the techie rapefugees are moving into are primarily Belltown, Capitol Hill, Lower Queen Anne and South Lake Union. All of them are very near to their places of employment.

There is some truth to that for the folks who live out in West Seattle, up in Ballard, or in the ghetto "Greater Seattle Area." However, the guys in Georgetown, First Hill, Fremont, or Upper Queen Anne enjoy some decent public transportation. Only crazy people (of which there are plenty), assholes who want to show off their cars, or long-distance commuters from Burien, SeaTac, and Federal Way drive through town to work.

It has always been like that. Seriously, even before the crash in 2008 HR was throwing out hundreds of applications for every job and just picking the few people that they thought would be the easiest to work with. That has nothing to do with the minimum wage.

Yeah speaking of which my work pens me in for 9 hour days sometimes, fuckers