Imperialism Map

I am making a serious map of imperialist and anti-imperialist countries. I am tired of seeing stupid meme maps from pro-imperialist "leftists," who think any form of bourgeois foreign policy is imperialism, so this is my answer. I need your help filling in the blanks of countries that I have no knowledge of, and corrections on ones I incorrectly filled in. Preferably from people with a personal knowledge of the conditions in the countries, but otherwise anyone who is knowledgeable.
Please help!

Other urls found in this thread:

brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2016/05/16/three-myths-about-china-in-kenya/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Cod_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Cod_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Cod_War
mobile.twitter.com/Jacm212/status/865705492752076800
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Also, I am considering adding more categories, such as a Neutral/Playing Both Sides category. Please give input on this.

Also potentially useful.

Duterte is a nazbol antiimperialist, though

I would put Spain on red, but It is also suffering from Brussels fuckery… so I don't know, 50/50.

Duterte is vacillating, and he alone can't constitute an anti-imperialist movement when the rest of the Philippines government and establishment is pro-NATO.

Under modern imperialism the metropolis comprises the financial districts of a dozen or so 'World Cities' while the rest of the world is a colony/exploitation zone.

What kind of actions have Spain and Portugal taken in Africa and the Middle East in the past several decades?

How is that different from imperialism in the time of Lenin's analysis?

Spain has troops in the middle east right now. I don't know about Portugal but they probably have some too.

Nation-states have less importance I suppose

fuck off Holla Forums, stop desperately trying to take credit for the atrocities bourgeosie with a similar complexion to you have committed

Literally just picked this book up today, how is it? I know Zizeks critical of Negri thinking state power is disappearing or something like that

You forget that China is by definition Imperialist as well because it's been bullying the ASEAN countries over the S. China Sea dispute.

Also, they kinda invaded Vietnam in the 70 and "reclaimed" land.

t. Chink

You can't be imperialist to the fucking ocean dude.

Um, do you not see the contradiction here?

A satellite state is not necessarily being exploited.

Still, that map really needs to be changed. Claiming showing China as not only non-imperialist, but as a target of imperialism on the same level as Yemen, is just absurd.

this
China & Russia are imperialist

China is a target of imperialism. The United States is continually trying to cook up regime changes in China. However, China is far too powerful for it to work.

Venezuela isn't "on the same level as Yemen," but it's still a target of imperialism nonetheless.


No. Learn the definition of imperialism. It's literally in the image in the OP.

Russia and China are premodern continental empires who survived into the modern age.

China is one of the most overt extractors of resources from Africa. There are entire colonial villages that by pass Africans entirely solely to take proprietary charge of resources there. China routinely interferes in other countries' affairs for economic and strategic benefit. China is not socialist and their Bourgeois elite want global reach just as much as the American elites do.

That's not entirely true though. Chinese "imperialism" is usually more infrastructure based, while western imperialism is straight up exploitation.

brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2016/05/16/three-myths-about-china-in-kenya/

So I read your article and it generally outlines some critique of concerns about Chinese involvement in Kenya. It still really felt even from that articles stand point China was at least quasi-imperialist. I mean the Europeans built infrastructure and provided Africans with jobs and more goods. I also think it is important to remember the ever shifting idea of "neo-colonialism" and how economic exploitation of a country and it's resources isn't as overt as it once was. Perhaps China isn't through and through Imperialist but, it, like any other nation that has grown strong, wants to exert itself around the globe and gain power and influence around the world for further economic success. I think it is really hard to justify putting on the same level as Iraq.
but i haven't read mao tbh :(

Back it up. Is China making an OVERALL extraction of wealth? Not just extracting resources, but doing so with all of the wealth going to China? It's hard data to come by, but remember that much of the production in China is still for Western consumption, and therefore the profits from the resources may still largely go to Western companies.

Not imperialism. Literally all countries do this.

If I ever meet somebody from Chechnya, or the Ukraine who's family was killed by Russians I'll be sure to tell them that Russian Federation was a victim of imperialism this whole time.

Indivual fates are irrelevant in an economic/polticial analysis.

Feel free to pledge alligiance to the Azov-Batallion in their struggle against Russian imperialism

What a laughable fucking image.

really activates my almonds

I mean the article the tankie linked talked about it. It said it was okay because it helps Kenya develop but that doesn't mean there isn't economic exploitation going on. China has porkies too, and they want a slice of the cake too.

I love how this moron colors Eastern Europe as under imperialism, then suddenly shoehorns in Ukraine as an imperialist puppet.

More people in Chechnya have been killed by CIA-Saudi-backed terrorists.

So are they all imperialist puppets? To the purposes of this map, a puppet state isn't just subjugated to imperialism, but carries out imperialist tasks in a significant way.

you should be clear with what this means and maybe more open to what others are saying. I mean you asked for input and (some)people are trying to be constructive.

They also invaded Vietnam and annexed part of their land.

How the fuck is basically fighting over oil that isn't in the 12 mile limit not imperialist? They literally shot people trying to approach before.

That is incorrect. China's wealth goes mainly to the CCP's state owned businesses (and western firms).

Also, the CCP is incompetent (read:corrupt)enough that there is a "New left" that want to go back to the Maoist line.

and tibet

You have to remember that tankies, maoists, and other reactionary non-leftists masquerading as "left" don't see imperialism as imperialism. They have a special snowflake definition that doesn't match what every other person and the dictionary defines imperialism as. To them, imperialism is something only ebil western "capitalist" states do, imperialist actions done by other actors aren't imperialism because they are not Western. It's like how some people think PoC can't be racist towards PoC, because only whitey can be racist.

Basically according to their shitty definition of imperialism, China and Russia are not imperialist, because those countries are not western, capitalist liberal democracies.

And yes I know it makes no bloody sense, tanks gonna tank.

Go suck Israel's cock some more faggot.

...

Correct, though using that logic it would depend if we consider Vietnam/ Tibet to be "part" of integral China. But of course with that logic we can argue that there should only be one country in the work, as the first Mesopotamia civilization ruled all.
(Personally I think Tibet deserves more of independent government but thats not gonna happen as long as the Indian government *CIA* is sending people in.

Understands the whole China is imperialist argument. At least (sarcasm) they send official medical groups and develop the countries; with the intent of using their resources ofc.

why isnt China and Russia imperialist?
Russia was always expanding into central Asia even during the Soviet Union
and China is actively in the process of colonising Africa bringing none of the infrastructure and benefits that the European empires did in the past

I would also turn the entire British Commonwealth into satellites since the USA dictates the foreign policy for the UK, Australia and New Zealand
France is Germany's puppet and you can consider the entire EU under the hegemony of a German dominated Brussels

Maps out of date and shit tbh OP rating it 2/10

That's a generous rating.

bullshit
China creates literal colonial outposts
they set up a mining company and build a fenced off area for the chinese workers they bring in to work the mine
the native Africans reap the economic benefits of being shot at by chinese guards when they try to break into the compounds and some african women get
RICE'FIELD

Brazil is a proud American puppet and whore. It should be on the purple.

Brazil is one more socialist reform from becoming the first country in the world to be run by CIA fed drug cartels

the native Africans reap the economic benefits of being shot at by chinese guards when they try to break into the compounds and some african women get

While that's true, China is also investing in huge and much needed infrastructure projects like highways and roads(something old colonial powers have neglected). If Chinas internal contradictions caused by class struggle worsens they might have to start shipping production to Africa, which means they need to invest in education and housing as well. It's still imperialism though

Of course, those poor Africans dindu nuffin as always.

the roads and railways in Africa were all built by old colonial powers
its up to the native African to maintenance and update them not the colonial powers after they've decolonised
Dont see that happening tbh

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Cod_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Cod_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Cod_War

Eventually those Bjorgs are gonna own the entire fucking atlantic.

are you retarded?

This map is garbage. It considers multinational HQs such as Eurocorps, with a just couple US soldiers, as "US bases". Also most of the "country hosting US troops" only have an military attache and his secretary at the local embassy.

Woops, here I was thinking that labor unions in China have a right to act against their bourgeois government but since China ==BUILT A SINGLE ROAD IN SOUTH SUDAN== that makes them super good and anti-imperialist.

Boy I can't wait until China builds a few more roads and maybe a rail network in Africa. That way Amerikkkkkkkkka will finally be defeated and we'll have global socialism forever and ever.

Time to huff more paint and work on my Kim Jong Un banner.

lemme guess
the road points north
to the libyan coast
the way to Europe and eternal bennies and all the whyte wimminz they want
anyone else see China removing an economic competitor through deliberate destabilization?

Yeah, the ocean's just full of gross water that you can't even drink. There's literally nothing useful there like fisheries or oil.

Absolutely nothing.

you know China wants the S. China sea so they can horde the gas and oil deposits underneath the ocean?
and international maritime trade you can bet your bottom dollar will be affected by that artificial floating fortress they think they can build to bully the Vietnamese and Filipino navies with
if the USA hadnt specifically made it clear to China that any act of aggression in the S.China sea would be dealt with swiftly by the US air force China would parading their outdated shit heap destroyers up and down the region pretending they own it already

That's how we defeat the Great Satan dude, Amerikkka is like, completely allergic to infrastructure. A single mile of rail is like kryptonite, why do you think they don't build any?

That's the secret duder, we're literally building Socialism, one stretch of road at a time. All we need to do next is build gulags to throw all the gays and unwoke malcontents into. *takes massive rip from comically oversized bong* it's gonna ruuuuule.

Stop OP, you are being too generous towards those Amerikkan anarcho-zionist fascist liberals. Here's the true map, all hail Putin!!!

Hurr durr Russian capitalism is not imperialism.

There are two political entities that could be described victims of imperialism and these are Rojava and the Zapatistas. Although one could argue that the various not fully integrated indegenous people living in the arctic, Indonesia and Papua, South America ect. are also victims of imperialism. But this useless posturing following a completely perverted idea of antiimperialism and playing useless games because you didnt get the memo that there are no socialist states is just sad. Realise that you play games that lead nowhere, atleast socdems have the decency of not moralising and splitting the left everywhere.

Where were you when "Marxists"-"Leninists" started subscribing to Kautsky's idea of ultra-imperialism, a concept Lenin opposed?

Could've spared us all that text.

You should really skip across that wikipedia article a second time, my man.

I'm so confused. Which capitalist states am I supposed to oppose again, and which capitalist states are okay to like and support?

Maybe explain it then? Because the modern incarnation of anti imperialism just looks like antiamericanism combined with a worship of national governments. In the older Marxist texts I read it only appears as capitalist states taking over undeveloped regions to spread their market dominance and isnt even considered as that bad. Or its about democracy and self determination, or opposing feudal regimes. What capitalist squabblings between undemocratic states(who are all equally hostile to socialism) mostly motivated by geopolitics have to do with that evades me. And if you are against war and intervention you can be that without making up some devisive shitty ideology.

Hello. I would like answers?

Scotland needs to be grey, and Northern Ireland too.

They are giving out massive loans to corrupt leaders of nations that will not be able to pay back the loan. They inflate the price of their infrastructure project so that the loan is increased. They buy up the resources that are being shipped to China for way lower than their value, most of the money goes to the corrupt olichargs that make the hands with Chinese officials.

Not really they did exactly the same thing when Africa was their colony.

No, that does not mean they need to invest in education. And these are just presumptions.

Russia and Russia-aligned proxy states

Support America in our struggle against Chinese and Russian imperialism.

Between this and the "YPG is just an imperialist puppet", I'm beginning to think that "anti-imperialism" is just anti-American/anti-West contrarianism.

Often. Only anarchists do anti-imperialism right.

Glad to see you're catching up

If you aren't against America, you are not a real leftist.

Ireland is part of the EU though. So it's hard to decide.

I think the cowards realize how powerful America is so rather then opposing them they think of some other phony enemy they can oppose or they use relativistic nonsense "Russia and China are imperialist too" which ignores the very real difference between these secondary powers compared to the global dominance of American imperialism.

There literally is nothing wrong with hating Americans.

if you deny this you are racist

Supporting some capitalist in the third world from your twitter account isn't some brave act faggot.

Most capitalists in the third world and even the first world now are American backed. The United States military, the CIA, etc ensure that the third world continues to be ruled by capitalist oligarchs and American corporations rather then the people. If there is some country in the third world, rather it is capitalist or not, which isn't under American control it is probably under imperialist assault, in which case I don't see whats wrong with defending them from imperialist assault.

that one is true tbh

If it nets me a qt israeli waifu, sure.

Oy vey!

But you're not defending them you fuckwit, you're shitposting on the internet. It's a useless display of activism to make you feel better from your standpoint as an impotent observer of a capitalist skirmish.

Sure you can call it slacktivism, interpassivity or whatever, but it is something. The imperialists pour billions of dollars into their media and strive to have complete control of it for a reason.

Even if just a little doubt in the narrative creeps into the public's mind then that can have a major effect in terms of anti-war work and consciousness.

It's funny how people seem to think that carrying a sign at a protest, smashing a window, or joining a likely yellow Union is the only thing that can be done. We need shitposters and educators out there on the internet as trivial as it may seem from the vantage point of a Cambodian cartoon forum.

qt

Explain this.

dont even bother its severe tankie autism
I dont even have anything against tankies but this is just fucking retarded

I dunno can't some Finnish firms like Nokia be considered imperialist monopolies? Finland isn't that populous so it doesn't need that many Fortune 500 companies to qualify as imperialist or an imperialist satellite. It has good trade relations with the West and arguably you could claim it benefited from soviet social imperialism during the Cold War bc it had the closest trade relations with the USSR of any Western state.

No, Finland isn't invading anyone militarily tmk but you could argue it's economically imperialist or a satellite that has a p.rivileged relationship with one or more imperialist blocs.

It's not a major force of imperialism, but reaps all the benefits and essentially is integrated into the imperialist bloc.

Because like other Nordic countries it is mostly a service economy that benefit with its relation with other imperialist countries? It is not hard to figured out that such levels of welfare could only be reached through asymmetrical economical relations.

This. American cultural imperialism is everywhere. The West is eroded by it as well.

Northern Ireland is a colonized and unlawfully occupied part of Ireland. It doesn't matter if Ireland is in the EU or not. British imperialism on Ireland and Scotland is active in front of our faces, but we choose to care about what is happening in some desert full of Islamists instead…

Half of this board is 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Anglo🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 COINTELPRO anyways…

No we dont, "antiimperialist" shitposters just embarass us all especially when they are just anti americans jumping on every retarded conspiracy theories. Slacktivism like that just needlessly devides and its barely possible to accuratly come to a conclusion which state to "support".

Would you have supported Vietnam during the Vietnam wars? Or would you have just played it neutral?

Not only America does imperialism, Russia also wants to be imperialist, they're in Syria for imperialist purposes, no?

Good subject, our Queen will have her revenge for 1776 after all…

How the fuck is Russia in Syria for imperialist purposes?

What's the difference between "Imperialist puppets" and "Under Imperialism"?

You people are insane

It's like the difference between those workers who when told to jump by the boss ask "how high?" and those who meekly go along with the order because they have no other choice.

So are petty bourgeois types in the Midwest or the South victims of imperialism?

Securing their influence and gaining long term control over Assad. Also they are loaning Syria lots of money for basic necissities like food. Limting Iranian influence and playing Turkey.


There are no more even vaguely socialist states to support. Post 1990 anti imperialism lost its last guing light and went compltely useless and bonkers.

can someone define "imperialist satellites" ?

I would imagine it's something like what Japan or South Korea are to the US. They don't directly engage in imperialism themselves, but they do play a supportive role and generally benefit from imperialism.

If you aren't against America, you are a class traitor, pure and simple.

OP here, I am using "imperialist puppet" to mark the countries that have strategic significance and act as an arm of imperialist foreign policy, but which are not part of the core. Please feel free to suggest a more specific term, since I know that many non-strategically-significant countries are also under imperialist "puppet governments."

So what do you do when the US invades another country then? I'm not even going to bother with what to do when Russia and China does the same thing–the Western media will tell you what to do.

Oppose it most likely, but i wont delude myself to believe i am doing anything for socialism or that who wins is important in the long run.

Russia claiming their part of Syrian oil: mobile.twitter.com/Jacm212/status/865705492752076800

What the fuck does this even mean you faggot? If you want to get shit done, you have to have a working theory. Like Marxism. If you don't give a fuck about anything and just ignore reality, you will be a danger to the revolution when the time comes. It's important for leftists to get their shit straight and take the correct stance regardless of how much power they have.

Russia and China are imperialist af

What did Australia do though?

OP can we get that template? Might be more interesting to have a thread posting competing definitions and maps. Also any resources anyone has to determine where each country stands

...

Why is no one in this thread mentally capable of reading the definition of "imperialism" provided below the image? Imperialism =/= any military aggression.

Jesus fuck, this board.

But that definition isnt reflected at all in the map.

When was the last time Denmark invaded anyone? It's clearly marked on the map though I don't agree with all it's classificstions btw

Fuck off leftcom retard. If nothing leftists say or think matters, then why don't we all just support ICE and the Azov Brigade? Kill yourself, it will literally be a boon to the revolution.

Nobody of any mental capability is posting in this thread.

I'm sure your twitter account is a great bastion against imperialism.

Updated map. Notes:
-Spain and Portugal in imperialist core, unless someone can give me more info that suggests they don't have a significant role in exploiting Africa and the Middle East.
-Ireland an imperialist satellite, Northern Ireland a target of imperialism. Not the most nuanced description of the situation, but the most I can come up with for a map, which necessarily makes a few simplifications.
-Changed Mexico from a puppet to under imperialism, as it does not to my knowledge have the same role as, say, South Korea.
-Libya as a target of imperialism, even though it seems like the imperialists have almost finished the job destroying it. There is still resistance there against the Western terrorists.
-Poland under imperialism, rather than a puppet. I suspect they may be a significant pawn of Western foreign policy, in which case I would consider changing it to a puppet, or possibly the core (though I think they have too much poverty for that).
-India under imperialism for now.


Here is the .xcf file. I encourage everyone to contribute or make their own if they just disagree too heavily with the Marxist-Leninist definition (the only serious definition) of imperialism.
>>>/file/368

Get back to your armchair then. Your posting in this thread is a bastion against reasonable discussion.

Just take a look at the lists of countries with highest GDP and highest number of nuclear weapons and you have your top 5 of imperialist powers.

Cool thank you. I dont necessarily disagree with your map but also I dont have an in depth understanding of the behavior and status of these countries

I never left my dear opprtunist. And neither have you.

I wouldn't call defending capitalist countries reasonable discussion, but I guess I'm just cashing in on my imperialismbux.

UAE should be red.

Qatar changed from imperialist power to target of imperialism recently.

Nobody actually did that? You are literally babbies first step in gepolitics tier.

UAE is red. You mean Oman?

More updates.


It is, it's Oman that isn't filled in there.

It could be a temporary squabble. Too soon to say IMO.

Fuck, my bad. I even majored in geography in high school…

kek, high schools have majors?

Going by the logic that Green countries are Russian satellites, Georgia shouldn't be green ever since the 2008 Russian invasion. Abkhazia and South Ossetia would be, yes, but Georgia proper hates Russia.

In my country they kinda do.

Here's another useful map, the HDI index of each country.


I was thinking that the Russian invasion is one of the factors that makes it a Russian satellite.

Yemen should be dark red by now.

South Korea dark green is a fucking joke.

Oh and Austria has a better human development than Germany, no matter what this map says.

Yeah, HDI is slanted towards wealthy countries, but it does tell some of the story.

Here's a map of "freedom" from the CIA propaganda outlet Freedom House. Gives somewhat of an idea of who the imperialists dislike, but it has some obligatory inclusions in the nonfree category (Such as Saudi) that don't make it a 1:1 guide. Green is free, yellow part-free, blue non-free.

More updates:
-Is Zimbabwe a target, or under imperialism?
-Are there any South Americans who can help fill in the remaining bits there?

Thank you for making Northern Ireland blue. It should be grey though, because it is literally a colonized part of Ireland.

And China needs to be red. How is its occupation of Tibet not imperialism? Just because they are yellow and not white?

Ftfy, fam.

I've gone over this previously but I'll reiterate:
China is obviously the target of the main imperialist bloc, but is too powerful for them to really do anything. So it is a target of imperialism.
China could possibly be engaging in imperialism in Africa and elsewhere, but first I would need to see solid evidence, meaning economic proof that they are really imperialist. Then I would be inclined to mark it as "the emerging power" or something along those lines.

Fuck, I forgot Palestine and Lebanon.

absolute garbage. unreadable and nonsensical.

This is perhaps the most detailed anti-imperialist map I've seen

It doesn't even show imperialism.

...

No, the word imperialism isn't even on it. Let alone the absolutely nonsensical groupings.
Basically, just completely ignore that the US military budget is 40% of all global expenditure on military, and that they own NATO which dominates the EU, and that it represents the concentration of power of the international bourgeoisie.

Who cares if they "want to be imperialist" are we idealists now and we can about such feeble things as wants that exist only in the mind? The United States attacks countries around the world all the time, and Russia has one country they have influence in and some how that is relevant to imperialism? The United States was aggressing against the entire world in the cold war and they didn't stop just because the Soviet Union collapsed, they want to finish off all the old Soviet allies like Syria. They are now continuing the same process of imperialism against Syria.

The United States has complete naval dominance and global power projection, they have bases all around the world and they attack constantly attack countries in every continent. Russia and China are regional powers that can only really exert control over their backyards, and even then they have limited control, e.g imperialist NATO is expanding into post-Soviet states like Poland, Romania, and the Baltic states.

Fam, Russia and China (especially so) have enormous industrial economies that can take advantage of the disparities of world trade and export capital all over the world. China is probably
the largest capital exporter to Africa and may soon rival the US as the worlds largest capital exporter to the developing world.

On the whole the US is actually a capital-importer but this gives it a blank check to do what it wants to do as long as there are investors willing to take low-yields on government bonds and tax payers willing (or forced) to prop the whole scheme up.

If I put "imperialism" in big letters, would that make you happy?

They are, albeit they're allies. Kinda like how Russia and China have a loose alliance.

Of course the EU is imperialist towards Africa, the US and China are just bigger players at the moment.

Yes, China is partaking in imperialism in Africa. I don't understand what your complaint is here.

India is shown as a major power in the Russian Bloc, not as some sort of client state. India and Russia are very close allies, though I wouldn't say either one is client of the other.

Not an argument.

Basically, just completely ignore Russia and China doing the exact same thing as the US just because they're not as powerful. Just ignore China and Russia being the second and third biggest spenders on military, invading and annexing parts of other countries, having their own military alliances as well (CTSO and SCO), and definitely being run by bourgeois oligarchs as well. Just ignore the influence that Russia has over its central Asian neighbours and breakaway states and China has over Africa. But that's okay, it's not imperialism when we do it!

No, keep it away, since it isn't a map of imperialism.

It's not a "loose alliance," it's fucking NATO.

France, Britain, Italy, and Germany have all been involved in very recent military operations against African states (often cooperating with US). Another reason not to separate EU and USA when mapping imperialism.

It's not even justified, it's completely scattershot. Please show us all the economic data that proves China is engaging (and significantly dominating) in imperialism in every African state you highlighted.

It's a CIA propaganda term. If your map had anything to do with describing imperialism, those would be among the most obvious targets of imperialism.

They are not doing the exact same thing, BECAUSE they are not as powerful. They are literally incapable of doing the exact same thing. Determining who is ENGAGING in imperialism is not the same as making wishy-washy future predictions.

They don't even approach America's level of spending combined, and again, the entire NATO region is one bloc, and their spending must be counted together.

Absolutely NONE of that is being ignored or denied. It simply does not describe imperialism.

Well now I'm gonna do it just to spite you, then. :^)

I said Russia and China do, not the US and EU.

The reason I separated them is that most of the time the EU acts on its own and the US acts on its own. Sometimes they cooperate, yes, but not always.

With pleasure.

Is it really? I thought I just made it up. If it is, that's my bad and I'll change it to something else.

It's literally the same shit on a smaller scale, yet equally as devastating for those affected by it.

I don't see why that matters. Plenty of NATO has smaller militaries than Russia or China, and I think we can both agree that they are imperialist.

Except it does. How is NATO imperialism but CTSO isn't?

Fuck, forgot to post them.

Russia is currently under international economic sanctions by all the major developed economies like the United States, Western Europe, and Japan. Russia is actually still suffering economically and is no position to expand imperialistically whatsoever. Not to mention, that they are still under conditions of imperialist encirclement, with the major imperialist bloc, NATO expanding into their borders with Poland, the Baltics, Romania, etc joining NATO and their last ally Syria is under constant imperialist assault.


No they are part of the same empire: NATO


All of those countries are former Western colonies and they are full of Western corporations yet you highlighted a random segment of Africa to invent a "Chinese bloc" just to make the point that China is one of the countries investing in them, but since there are others there is no "Chinese bloc." Equally so even North Korea isn't a clear Chinese ally and could even be a rogue state so the notion of a "Chinese bloc" here is ridiculous and fabricated. As ridiculous and fabricated as the "Russian bloc" when India for example is also a Western ally and even Iran isn't part of some "Russian bloc" just because it has a common interest in Syria. Really there is only Russia and Syria in a real bloc.

Those charts say nothing about imperialism.
#1. Map of countries China is investing in. It doesn't even match the picture you drew.
#2. Shows China, the biggest economy on Earth, with less trade and investment than Europe alone. Vague "Rest of world" present, does not say anything about net extraction of wealth.
#3. Infrastructure projects. These could be very positive developments depending on the deal terms and China's future plans. Well-known and not proof of imperialism.
#4. Raw materials. Says nothing about where the wealth ends up. China is the world's factory, so where the fuck do you think the raw materials will go? The real question is where the final products are sold, and which company makes the profit.

I knew all of this already, and it is not proof of imperialism. It COULD be supporting information if you had proof of imperialism.

As I mentioned, I made them separate because they don't always work together. The EU doesn't need to ask the US for permission to fuck people over and vice versa. I don't deny that they work together sometimes and that many of their goals are the same, but I don't feel that's reason enough to include them together. That far downplays how imperialist the EU actually is.

Many of those countries are way closer to China than they are to the West. That's the reason China is investing in them. Do you think they're just doing it out of the good of their own hearts?

I actually considered that, but in the end the North Korean government would collapse without the Chinese. It only exists because of the Chinese in the first place.

I'll admit, I probably should have put India under the "rogue" category. I initially put it in the Russian Bloc because India is a very close ally to Russia, but it would probably make more sense to be off on its own.

Belarus? The Central Asian states? The breakaway states? Are these not Russian allies?

If you honestly don't think that's imperialism, I can't help you.

Not either of you, and I appreciate both your input, but isnt it a little disingenous to say that those maps have "nothing" to do with imperialism? Ofc the US is still the dominant power and China is acting effectively under or around their rule but there is clearly a power struggle between China and the US of some kind and the surely mass extraction of resources from Africa, even under pressure from the market demands of necessary to stay afloat in a world ruled by the US and goons, surely gives China some complicity in international exploitation that a country like Mexico or Ghana doesnt have? Maybe that isnt a complicity that fits within the M-L definition of imperialism, but if they are complicit in exploitation of third world countries in this degree shouldnt that be acknowledged and explained as part of the explanation of imperialism?

Why do we have these stupid fucking threads when you can summarize the main thrust of anti-imperialist logic in a few lines:


it's literally just a weak form of Russian nationalism in practice.

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You're right, I forgot to include "Europe and Japan are American vassals and can be imperialist, but indirectly".

Just off yourself, it's clear you haven't even read the actual discussion going on in the thread. You just want to attack the most vulgar ridiculous straw man of an anti-imperialist position so you can justify not caring about imperialism.

It's not proof of imperialism, because it doesn't prove a net extraction of wealth to China. That is what you have to prove. You can't prove it without actual economic statistics that directly show this.


I have said that there is a real possibility China is beginning to engage in imperialism, and also that the pics he posted could be seen as supporting evidence.

A conversation worth having. I would also add that regardless of whether it's technically imperialism, Mao would likely have every one of the party leaders killed if he saw what they are doing today.


A number of the countries carry out smaller imperialist projects independently, though they depend on the USA as backup.

What is the actual end goal of "supporting" one capitalist regime over another beyond posturing? Suppose, for instance, that Russia actually succeeds at breaking the petrodollar and bringing America crashing down overnight and making Nazbols' fever dreams come true. So do we then support Russia against inevitable Chinese imperialism, pretend Russia won't engage in the same practices as America if it commanded vastly more global power, pretend that they're going to hit the "bring back USSR" button like in the Simpsons, or what? Or is the alternative to suggest that new power blocs simply won't be imperialist, or in other words, imperialism is unique to the Euro-American character?

First, the empire is the number one threat to the world. No other countries belligerently threaten nuclear armageddon, no other countries deny global warming and pollute on such a per-capita level, no other alliances are funneling hundreds of billions of dollars into Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups. The empire is the number one organization holding back socialist revolutions all over South America, and has almost completely destroyed socialist movements across the world. The empire is the number one enemy of the world's proletariat, period, and it always has something worse in store for its targets than one of the non-imperialist powers.

Two, most of the people posting here live in the West. They live right in the heart of the empire, and thus are the only ones who are close enough to fight it directly. If you live in the West, it is your responsibility to focus the majority of your organizational resources on fighting imperialism in whatever way will be possible and most effective. It is NOT your responsibility to devote endless hours to ignorant, chauvinistic, and CIA propaganda-addled "critiques" of the countries that the West is directly fighting and sanctioning. Yes, we must be realistic and have a levelheaded approach to the situation, but we must not replicate the empire's own propaganda efforts.

Why don't you try actually reading Lenin instead of getting your information from Nazbol gang memes?

If this happened it could create a systemic crisis that opened up opportunities for socialism to come to power in many places all over the world. This isn't what Russia is aiming to do though, which is mainly to keep their share of the global oil/natural gas business intact and to expand it if possible, this is interfering with America's own plans to expand its imperialism.

The reason the other capitalist countries and the main buyers of US debt are imperialist powerskeep buying US debt and essentially give America a blank check to expand its military by watering down its real debt-burden via inflation is that they have politically have faith in America's willingness to suppress revolution violently on a global scale. Most of those powers have neither the resources, nor the inclination to assume this role openly and attempt to replace America as the boss of world capitalism.

Economically, it plays the role of consumer of last-resort and capital investment haven last resort for the other imperialist nations.

Russia wont destroy the petrodollar because where will the Russian oligarchs and the Russian central bank do with the billions of dollars and dollar-denominated debt that they hold?

Honestly, only China and the EU even have a snowball's chance of hell of replacing the US as the dictator of world capitalism. With Brexit taking the world's largest financial centre (London) out of the European fold that looks like it has a snowball's chance of hell of occurring. Japan blew its shot to replace America economically in the early 90s and it never had the military/demographic capability to act as the boss of world capitalism anyway.

So, while anti-American contrarianism is not the answer to the Left's geopolitical problems, the fact is that to defend American imperialism or even to go soft on it is to defend world capitalism as a whole. Right now the US holds the position that Britain held in the late 19th and early 20th century as the boss of world capitalism–while competing rival Empires have always been apart of the system, capitalism has always turned to a world hegemon to preserve and mediate within the system since its foundation.

>to defend American imperialism or even to go soft on it is to defend world capitalism as a whole
this

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Make the north of England blue. The people here have been exploited by an over-centralised government for centuries at this point.

Yay Greenland has dodged a bullet! Yay for Greenlandic potential Communist!

actively kill yourself! Greenland is currently under occupation you shithead

Every imperialist country has ghettos and poverty.

bump

can someone post the data to show there is actually a net extraction or value from countries Like poland, Lithuania, an so forth?

This meme has gone too far.