Well, was he right?

Its a bit more complex then that, yes American intervention in the middle east did dismantle secular Islam, but the current iteration of Islamic fundamentalism being practiced has mutated to such a point that its mostly disconnected from reaction and moved into pure ideology.

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But dude like seriously why do they hate us?

America openly funds and supports Radical Islam via its ally Saudi Arabia.

They hate us for our freedom.

of course, the logical answer is to start crucifying american and european muslims
bravo harris, you have done it again, the west is saved
yay

Of course everyone knows that, I'm just saying Islamic culture in general has been sufficiently damaged and will probably need a full reformation even after the bombings fully stop.

Well he is wrong. No one is protesting after that sperg in england tried to strike into the muslim crowd.

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I'm not sure Islam needs a reformation as much as it needs to purge the reformation that already happened. Salafism is just a form of protestantism with its disregard for the traditional schools of thought and jurisprudence. It's far disconnected from the strains of Islam that thrived during peaceful times. If anything Islam needs to purge the "reformers" on Youtube and get back to studying the classical jurists and Sufis.

He's right, but he ignores the root cause in favor of making a muh religion statement meant to be viewed as profound by fedoras. Namely Saudi Arabia and burger foreign policy enabling or supporting Islamic extremism. While we can't go back and not fuck it up, pointing out the obvious to appeal to enligbtened rationals is about as useful as pointing out the sky is blue.

God why the fuck won't new atheism just fucking die already? Most of its adherents are already fscists. Why won't liberals stop giving these people attention?

Is Saudi Arabia being bombed? What's their excuse?

There is a definite connection between belief and action. What Islamists need is a seed of doubt tgat the Quran isnt 100% divine word, perfect and ineffable. Sam has also stated that our policies can make it worse, but the belief was already there before the bombs. Just look at history

$$$ and tribal politics.

Saudi Arabia is untouchable as long as they bribe the US with oil.

yeah that and deport them all

Is it tribal politics that says to have women travel with an Imman wherever they go? Or be punished by law based on Quranic teachings?

Doesnt help that the USA literally gave 100 billion to terrorists

Islam is cancer but so are liberals like Sam Harris.

US weapons sales to Saudi Arabia are worth a lot more than 100 billion. If you're referring to the Iran thing however then kindly shut the fuck up nerd.

Reminder that New Atheists™ are their own form of idpol.

Yeah my main problem with New Atheism is its support for American imperialism. It's incessant idealism is also awful but that can be said for a lot of ideologies.

Women have to travel with an… Imman? You mean a mahram? lol Also, yes, these strict ideas like "Women can't drive" come straight out of tribal custom. "Saud" is just a name of a house and they trace their lineage back to a tribe called Banu Hanifa. Banu Hanifa actually fought against Muhammad. lol Anyways, if you read the history of Saudi Arabia it becomes clear why they are so strict and reactionary. It was all about $$$ and shoring up big power in the region.

Saudi history is actually hilarious because the British Empire in India propped up the Saudis against Hashemites who were being propped up by the British Empire in Egypt. The British Empire was literally in a proxy war against itself.

America's fault.

Hahaha, What's this from?

which is the west's fault for becoming bffs with Saudi Arabia & allowing them to do whatever they wanted, ie smear Wahabism all over the region, blood refills sold separately

This. Sam Harris has autism.

"Why am I for death penalty? Well, because Sam Harris is still alive."
t. sniff man

Finally I can agree with sniffer on something

>>>/reddit/

I just saved a blank version so I could edit it, mr. reddit.

You're bad and should feel bad

it's not whataboutism, it's literally what produces these people.

Yea it's not like ISIS are fighting the armies of dozens of countries.

Sam Harris is such a moron.

You have no proof or reason to think this since we already have a sufficient explanation. This autonomous ideology you attribute these actions to doesn't exist, actual political actors are funding fuelling and keeping this alive for exactly political ends and nothing else.

kys illiterate

not my comrade

yes. but there's virtually nothing that can be done about it. and his favoured solution; exterminate muslims and attempt to somehow wipe islam out; is wrong

harris has no answers. he's just another complainer, except with a book deal

his solution is slowly reform islam from within, not wipe them out youtube.com/watch?v=0szQcpwrZgo

don't have time to watch the whole thing but its hard to slowly reform Islam when western foreign policy does the exact opposite.

whilst invading and aerial bombing from without?

thats idiotic.
why would anyone complain about criminals committing crime? they're fucking criminals !
they don't give a fuck if you protest about it or not.
same way protesting against isis is idiotic.

did he ever say that?

remove whabbitporky & salafydog

restore mu'tazila.

isn't this the sam harris who advocates u.s. state terrorism, aggression and torture?

dunno, thats why i'm asking

Remind me of what was happened in Laos during Vietnam war, a lot of people joined commies because Americans bombed their house.

I'm not saying political actors aren't keeping this alive and feeding it, what I'm saying is that if you actually looked at the majority held opinions even moderate Muslims have some very conservative opinions. This isn't going to miraculously disappear after the bombings stop, there has to be a collective movement within the faith. Reformation isn't a bad thing, it can even be about getting back to basic positive values and a general spiritual upheaval. Catholics over time have gone from having very conservative opinions to being more open and accepting, at least from those I see around me. I'm just worried once the bombings stop, other faiths are still going to have a hard time getting along with Muslims and I'm tired of hearing about copt suppression.

Muslims and their countries are all reactionary. Genocide is literally the only sensible action to take.

That's only because of America and Saudi Arabia. Read a fucking book for once.

I love the patronizing attitude displayed towards people in other countries here. People throughout the Islamic world were simply forced to start subscribing to backwards versions of Islam, all because of American bombings. No one can have agency to believe in one way or another - they can only react to America.

Maybe America should stop paying SA to propagate radical Islam? Seriously it would help a lot.

That and working with the Saudis and removing governments and funding fundamentalists.

American Christian billionaires spend a ton of money proselytizing radical Christianity. Yet, I imagine you aren't a radical Christian just because some idiot preached to you about the perfect correctness of, say, the Westboro Baptist Church.

Meanwhile, in the Arab world, by your logic:

this logic basically paints Muslims as retarded monkeys who never question what they hear in their mosque, have no real agency, and only react to American foreign policy. It couldn't be that backward strains of Islam are logically coherent and have real appeal to many Muslims, in the same way that conservative Christianity appeals to many Westerners..

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I should add that this itself is a hilariously American Christian worldview: Third-worlders are basically noble savages, whose minds are clouded by the sin of America, forcing them to subscribe to radical versions of Islam. They could be converted to nice, Western, seculars like us, but only if the world is purged of the sin that is America. We must atone!

jesu fucking christ when will your bloodlust end? how many people have to die before you say "eh enough already"? the war in the ME has been going on for 15 years! 15 years and fuck all to show for it!

America is far more savage than any middle eastern country.

Personally, I want the Muslims to be left alone, somewhere far away from me.

Nationalists and ethno-religious groups of every stripe take offence at insults to their symbols - flag burning, cow slaughter, calling Israel Nazi etc. It's what happens when people seek collective security in a spook - basically the group equivalent of a mafia boss having you killed for insulting his brother.

The west is just as bad for reacting to symbolic outrages. To take an example, we had outcry in the UK because a few Muslims burned poppies. There were counter-protests and some people went to jail for it. When a few Muslims protested an army parade and said the soldiers would "go to Hell", angry lynch-mobs attacked the local Muslim community in retaliation. That's no smarter than burning shit over a book.

He is vastly exaggerating, too. South Park insulted Islam and the worst they got was one non-credible threat from an attention-seeking radical in New York. Milo hasn't been beheaded. Trump hasn't been beheaded.

It's rare to protest ISIS because they don't have embassies and the west doesn't have much leeway over them. If they were receiving western aid to behead people, there would be protests. Also, there are rarely protests over extreme human rights violations in a great many countries. When was the last time you saw a protest about protesters being shot in Kashmir or Ethiopia? About death squads in El Salvador? About Saudi Arabia beheading people for witchcraft? About massacres linked to US oil companies in the Niger Delta? About US backing for right-wing death squads in Colombia?

On the other hand, there *have* been protests against ISIS - both the moderate Muslim "hope against hate" kind, and the "Stop Islamisation" alt-right kind. The killing of two Chinese by ISIS led to protests in China this week.

In addition, remember that ISIS is illegal, people can be jailed in most of Europe just for watching their videos or expressing verbal support, it's a serious crime to move to their territory, their members are jailed, assets frozen and websites shut down. That's a lot more than Koran-burners are gonna suffer.

Good post but should've spoilered the image

Well there was the whole anti-Islam movie riots en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_of_Muslims but your point stands. I just want muslims to leave copts and missionaries alone, so the sooner the west can stop bombing the better Unfortunately though this was going on before that too

Sounds like you need the Hezbollah pill.

There's a few more examples too, the Mohammed cartoon protests and the attacks on Charlie Hebdo, and the Rushdie affair which is decades ago come to mind. But this does *not* happen every single time someone insults Islam, it's pretty rare.

Sadly, the statement is correct.

I'm starting to unironically think that a centralized Islam might be a good idea because then, like the Orthodox and Catholics, the collective administration can act as the "legitimate" authority and directly denounce actions taken by certain groups. It would also help in legitimizing correct interpretations and denouncing others as well as negotiating civilly with other faiths and help ease the tensions some Christians are going through as they could talk with the body npr.org/2017/05/12/528166460/facing-global-persecution-christian-leaders-urge-u-s-for-more-protection

afghanis gettin noscope headshotted

He's right, but for the wrong reasons. It's amazing that a guy who talks so much about determinism can miss the point.

Sure, and will the leaders of this central institution be elected or hereditary?
Lel