Syrian Conflict General

I don't think that's the case. Just some people bitch about their alliance with the US.

They are US puppets that will opt out soon as the civil war ends and settle for little bit of autonomy.
They are not going to establish socialism or build dual power to overthrow capitalism.

Okay, so how about we support them while they still maintain what appears to be a sincere commitment to socialism instead of just throwing a fit before they've even done anything wrong?

Uh, they are open allies to the USA, Israel, and Qatar now. That's wrong.

You realize that the USSR, Hoxha, Tito, and Viet Minh were all also backed by western powers during ww2 right? Do you (critically) support the Third Reich against Anglo-French imperialism?

So was the USSR.
So were the communist partisans.

Hell, the USSR only existed because the Germans supported the communists to overthrow Russia.

Different footing. The USA can bend Rojava to its will.

Uh, no.

They are allied to USA, and Syrian government clearly showing that they are no different form mensheviks of the 1917-1922

Hoxa,Tito and Biet Minh rose to power post-ww2. Western allies were planning on bombing Soviet fuel production 1940`s and could have gone to war with Soviets during Finnish winter war in wich they were about to intervene.

Third Reich and Axsis werent anti-colonial powers so no.

That's also what they thought about the Taliban.

If the last 20 years have thought us anything it's that the US is not as omnipotent as we're led to believe. Their own "puppets" biting them in the ass happens at such an alarming rate that it's ridiculous to think that any US support equals US domination.

There is no such thing as a non-socialist anti-colonial power if you're trying to suggest that Syria is one.

Islamic state is.

I pity these Assad fanboys on halfchan when their beloved dictator cant even conquer his own capital. And meanwhile kurds are sieging raqqa.

the IS wants to colonize the entire islamic world bucko

Yes but during the war all three were fighting the Axis and were backed by American and British material, intelligence and logistical support.

Yeah because they were selling that fuel to the Nazis.

You mean that shameless land grab of a sovereign nation? The Soviets were 100% in the wrong.

Nah, mate. Fuck Finland.

The entire country was and continues to be rightful Russian clay.

And they were right.

If any of the recent developments made your revaluate your position on them the n you allways where misinformed and naive. I am sorry but none of the currently likely trajectories where super unlikely. 95% if the people here have no clue about the nature of geopolitics and bought into american cold war propaganda making them overvalue ideology massivly in geopolitics.

this fucking board, man.

whoops, forgot to take off my shitposting flag

Where is proofs YPG is allied with Israel. Never been a Kurdfag but I want to be sure they're fucked up before I get back to hating them.

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Think it's the military bases that are spooking people.

People need to stop being so fucking ideologically pure and dogmatic by thinking that this "alliance" implies they no longer care about the revolution, it's precisely because they do that they're doing this. There is literally zero alternative to this other than a similar one with Russia, and you're a retard if you think that'd be any different or better, or worse yet one with the Syrian government, which would require them compromising their principles. They border a regional power to their north that is genociding their countrymen and has clearly expressed their motive to destroy Rojava and its revolution, while to the east is the KDP which is literally nothing except a neoliberal oil barony which is actually a Turkish puppet, while the rest of Syria will eventually be back under the control of an increasingly neoliberalm quasi-monarchy which has continually oppressed the Kurds for decades while murdering and torturing its own citizens, and it will not tolerate a rival, socialist system, or a region that demands autonomy.

Without a permanent, powerful alliance, Rojava would, without a doubt, be invaded by Turkey and it would ultimately lose. It is shitty they have to ally with their ideological enemy, especially one as shitty as the US, but for there to be any hope for the revolution to stay alive, this had to happen. If this alliance kills the revolution, then the revolution never had a chance to begin with, but that is a big if. Geopolitics is more than capitalist markets, and the US will likely not give a fuck about some ideological experiment as long as the SDF helps their geopolitical ambitions, which is not going to be some puppet relationship, it will be in the SDF's interests also. The PYD has clearly shown they are not puppets to anyone, they have continually, and shrewdly played both sides to their benefit so far without compromising the revolution, why the fuck do you think they'd screw up now, or that they have suddenly lost faith in Apoism? Once they actually do something that goes against the interests of the revolution or betrays its principles, then it's time to move on and focus on something else, but if a strategic necessity is that thing for you, then it sounds like you had little faith to begin with.

Also, creating a new thread and de-cycling a years old one because of this is a shitty thing to do, and it's solely because of the mod's own politics.

Fuck off. Isn't there something else you should be doing?

lol

Assad a good boy, he dindu nuffin

you realize it's only Holla Forumsacks who use that flag right? This is just some triggered Assad-cuck who wants to shit on the SDF for the same paper-thin excuses they've been using for years.

Should have just edited the old thread to read something different, then. I think this is a pretty knee jerk reaction to something which has already been known for a while now. It's not as if the DFSNS is suicidal and will put themselves in an antagonistic position to the US. I mean really, the air base has been in development for a very long time now.

A little strange protesting about it, seeing as US ties and aid have been known for years, and it's only now that it's been officially announced on a long term basis. Though I suppose a permanent alliance vs a "temporary, transitory, and tactical" one makes a difference.

High ranked people in the PYD and SDC have been praising Saudi Arabia recently too. Said there was a Iran-Qatar-Turkey axis against DFSNS. Being anti-Iran is certainly fine with the US. Seems the DFSNS will be a US foreign policy outpost in exchange for their continued existence.

This isn't inaccurate tbh. Iran certainly opposes a federal solution to Syria, and this only makes sense considering Iran represses it's own Kurdish population.

Nope, literal fiction.
It first came around due to morons who couldn't tell the difference between the KRG and the YPG, since the KRG accepted Israeli weapons.

2018: Rojava becomes newest member of Nato
2019: Rojava joins the EU
2020: Rojava becomes part of the CSTO, SCO, African Union, and Apo becomes Secretary-General of the United Nations.

which one of these had US military bases on their territory and acted as an extension of US foregein policy in their respective regions to destabilise the said region?

the US had nothing to gain from the taliban after the soviets were out.
instead of that they let it become a threat giving them an excuse to invade afganistan and stay there to exploit the resources.
rojava on the other hand is a gateway for US foregein policy and vital to its influence.

If you're implying overthrowing Assad is not a worthy goal then you are wrong.

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How is it more than the Taliban were?

give me one reason why any of the last US attempts to overthrow rightful goverments in the middle east were justified.

did the US have military bases in taliban controled territory in the 80s? no.
did it plan to stay there for a while? no.
was there a nearby enemy the US wanted to defeat and could do so with military presence after the soviets were gone? no.

Do you not think that the SDC is attempting to balance that out with the SAA/Russian influence in Manbij and Afrin?
The US has made it very clear that their help to the SDF is just a means to an end in defeating ISIS whilst Russia and Syria have longer standing political ties and relations to the SDC.

you must be a comedian.

Here's one: Saddam Hussein was a dickhead who deserved the noose.

I like the reading one. Then I don't have to write them all down.

Ehm . . . Iran?

Meanwhile accusations of the US wanting to make Rojava a puppet state is still speculative. Sure you can't trust everything the US says; but at least I have some things to back up what I'm saying.

You realize the goal of the US is not to have a change of government, but to explicitly balkanize Syria? This has been laid out by military think tanks and foreign policy experts decades ago. The original plan was to build the Qatar-Turkey-Pipeline which would bind Europe to US foreign interests, as they aren't dependent on Russian fuel fossils anymore.

It is beyond me how somebody who calls himself a leftist can just look at US imperialism and just shrugs his shoulders saying "they are all just as bad". You're clearly no seeing the bigger picture here - both Arab self-determination and Russian interests align by undermining the petrodollar empire; by supporting US proxies you perpetuate the global relations of capitalism, particulary the extraction of surplus value from the Middle Eastern peoples into the west to gain geopolitical advantage over both Russia and China.

how retarded are you?

the US already attempted to destroy it by backing saddam, and failed. they couldnt try again, even less so from a desert like afganistan. think beofre you post

no, they want to make them into unicorns, right?

show them. i hope you dont mean historical examples tho

The US covert attempts to subvert Iran didn't stop with the Iran-Iraq war. They continued to use small Sunni insurgent groups to attack the country; something the mujahidin was very capable of doing.

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The US has been trying to destroy Iran to this very day.

FTFY

The US is the most unreliable ally in the world, the only reason factions are dumb enough to allow the US to prop them up is because of the sheer military and geopolitical might they posses. You're being extremely naive to think that it's just about defeating ISIS, they are being on retreat since the Russians intervened, and the US is not that particulary bothered by ISIS presence as long as they direct their actions against the SAA and not against the FSA.

If it all was that temporary, why do they have US military bases in their own territory, why do they make an alliance with Saudi-Arabia A DAY after the Saudis denounced Qatar? You can keep telling yourself that Rojava is a "balancing force" between the two major factions, they are clearly not, they have taken a side, the imperialist one.

You gotta explain your bullshit to a young Syrian soldier who had his country ruined by neoliberal warhawks and islamist mercenaries as to why he shouldn't fight against an advancing force of foreigners with CIA and US soldiers at their rear.

Here's the thing though. Syria is capitalist.

I don't give a fuck what happens to Assad, at the point in which it's capitalists v capitalists it's none of my concern. It's not the 20th century any more as much as this fact may pain "anti-imperialists" and as such it doesn't matter if it's Russia at the helm instead of America because Russia in case you haven't noticed is also capitalist.

Overthrow every last one of them. From Washington to Moscow.

I see, excellent praxis.

and did the US continue to use the taliban as a mean to attack Iran? no. instead Iran used shiite militias in afganistan to deal with any potential insurgents. your just throwing shit at the wall and seein if it will stick.
the only use the US had of the taliban after soviet withdrawal was a pretext to invade it a decade later.

Because risking your life for a sectarian oligarchy is spooky as fuck.

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Good posts. Please visit us more regularly.

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see

To be honest if some sort of hypothetically ethical UN-sanctioned intervention (not supporting imperialism here) happened durring the 1991 uprisings in Iraq then things would be a whole lot better because the fairly moderate (I mean actual moderates and communists) would have actually acted as a viable opposition rather than US puppets and Shia jihadists.
But in our timeline the Us let them die in the uprising because it was too inconvenient.

how retarded are you?
once assad is gone theres still Iraq and whats left of ani-US forces in syria. the conflict in syria wont be over for over a decade. unlike the USSR which was just one foregein actor in afganistan.

You're totally ignorant of how geopolitics and how imperialism works. So because the 20th century is over you can't be anti-imperialist anymore?

Roajava is a shitty tiny state with a bunch of community councils, they won't be building socialism, they don't even aim for it anymore. They are opportunists, I can't blame them, after all the Kurds didn't have a state since the middle ages, but that doesn't mean I have to support them.

Well yeah, it's easier to get rid of a squabbling mess of murderous warlords than to get rid of one deeply entrenched powerful murderous dictator.

Likewise I would prefer the US was a sea of warlords and militias because it's easier for socialism to take root there than in the very stable government it is now.

I was just correcting you, no need to be so damn salty.

he is risking his life so that millions of others can live in a stable country not pozzed by the CIA, israel, muslim brotherhood and other abominations

Meow murr murr. How are you here guys?

No, what I mean when I say "the 20th century is over" is that the USSR isn't here anymore. It's not their allies and their government we're defending. It's a capitalist government in Russia propping up its capitalist allies.

Seriously, what is the fucking point in supporting Assad because he's Putin's boy and not Trump's. They're all capitalist defenders of the system. No one there is fighting for anything we should actually be supporting.

It's pure cold war nostalgia.

I find it odd that people here on an imageboard implicitly know this
but you all think somehow the leaders of the PYD/SDF don't.

Personally, I don't think the "10 years" thing will last. I think it will end as soon as ISIS is defeated in Syria (they will probably set up a base in Afghanistan next)
Also, the US has been arming the SDF since like last October, why is it now only a problem?

im laughing my ass of at how retarded you are.

This is the sort of patronizing arrogance of the western left which is totally ignorant of the actual conditions under which these people live. They don't fight for Assad, they fight for their country not to become Somalia, to have Syrian people actually accessing their own economic output, to not become a transit country for the USA and Saudi-Arabias petro-imperialism and to not give Israel a free voucher to colonize what's left of the Palestinians.

They will fight an US proxy, righteously so.

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I see, risking your life so you can suck the dick of a dictator who couldn't care less about your function other than profit and cannon fodder for a stable long time coming.

You mean the pro-US government the US themselves built after overthrowing Saddam?
The only force in Syria worthy of any even mild support from socialists is Rojava. If they remain socialist then I say godspeed to annihilating the other anti-US forces. If they turn capitalist then who cares what happens to any of them?

because the SDF have become a competent force in the war and geopolitics

Last I checked Iraq has a stable government and ISIS have declared their retreat from Iraq.

explain to me how is any other faction not like this.

Capital is capital. It has hegemony all over the world anyway already. The US does not have some magic supernatural aura that makes it's ambitions different. They're all just fronts for the bourgeoisie anyway who currently enjoy global hegemony.

You people must honestly be retarded if you think the US is going to abandon a longtime NATO partner that hosts American Nukes and access to the Black Sea over a ragtag group of Leftists who are tied to a group the US still labels as terrorists.

So because both is capitalism they are exactly the same? Are you implying that a total US hegemony over fossil fuel trading and silk road exchanges would not stifle any chance of socialist revolution?

Secondly, I couldn't care less if a country was capitalist when I choose to support them when they don't want to see their country bombed into the stone age. Jesus fucking Christ. Jemen is capitalist too, so you don't give a fuck about Saudis genociding them right now? If Kurds gave a single shit about solidarity, they would never flirt with Saudi-Arabia this much as long as this is going on, and that's not even a moral issue: Tactically it is bad as well, everybody will treat them as a US proxy now.

that puppet goverment didnt control shit after 2004, it will control even less after 2018.
iranian presence in the region is increasing.

thats what ISIS supporters say.

Vro Iraq has been shifting more and more to the Iranian camp. Most of their effective anti-ISIS forces are Shia militias with strong ties to Iran, and they've openly said they would only co-operate with Assad. Iraq for all intents and purposes is now an Iranian puppet if anything.

the CIA wold factbook is not a good source

due to shia militias gaining more and more ground in key western regions and threatening to cut them off from syria in the southwest

no, they just make sure their monopoly over power is absolute and there is nothing to challange it.
good job.

In terms of who we should support? Yes. Capitalists are unconditionally the enemy - it doesn't matter if they're Russian or if they're American or if they're Arab. None of them deserve our support, not one. And before you say anything yes this also means the Kurds if they abandon socialism in the coming years.

As socialists it means dick to us what flag the head bourgeoisie are flying, what matters is that they're bourgeoisie and we're proletariat - that's the end of considerations.

Here's the thing. The Yemenis they're annihilating are also proletariat, of course I support the Yemeni people in not getting murdered.

But I'm not going to support Assad's capitalist fucking government just because he's an Arab.

Yeah, I get it. But to my understanding, that was actually part of the thinking and waiting on the Pentagon's part. To see if they had a chance before arming them.

Domestically, in the U.S., I believe once it becomes mainstream news that we're arming a socialist/anarchist group, there will be the usual backlash and domestic U.S. politics might end the alliance.

There's also this. The U.S. will side with Turkey 100%

I don't think you understand why anti-imperialism is important, by indirectly supporting US hegemony you perpetuate the extraction of resources out of the colonized world to keep capitalism alive in the West itself. Seriously, read Lenin.

Take the hegemony over oil trade for example: Oil being calculated in petrodollar leads to petrodollar recycling, which means every country has to back up their currency in US dollar. This results in a) the dollar being kept artificially valuable and b) countries are forced to buy US exports. If this arrangement were to be terminated, the dollar would immediately devalue and post-colonial outsourcing would take a hit, which would lead to unmasked capitalist exploitation in the USA himself, opening a change for a socialist uprising.

As long as you perpetuate imperialism and Third World exploitation, capitalism will sustain itself forever. The idea that you could have a revolution in the West as long as they can simply resort to social imperialism is absurd.

They fight because they are drafted by Assad to fight and die for his cause and through being thoroughly spooked. Syrian streets are filled with posters celebrating the death soldiers, when they lived, they were brutally exploited by an oligarchic clan, now in death, they have proven themselves to be of value to them. Those are the actual conditions, your desire that they die to serve your position as a geo-politics nerd is the one that is removed from their reality.

Rojava right now isn't Socialist though.

Pic related..

The thing about that is Rojava aren't taking slaves, committing massacres, and enforcing medieval law.

If by they you mean the bourgeoisie then yes. The US is just one tool among many (including Russia and Syria) for doing that.

Yes but the US has a much greater projection of force than Russia does. Syria is the only country that Russia has bases in. Sure, they're both capitalist powers projecting imperialist forces, but the US is certainly much, much greater when it comes to this.

The Kurds haven't even embraced socialism, they endorse private property and entrepreneurship. They don't call themselves MLs anymore, which means they don't have plans to diversify the industry or to introduce a planned economy. They see Democratic Confederalism as a goal in itself, which is why they aren't communists anymore.

And the Syrians aren't?

He's not talking about land that's nominally controlled by the Iraqi government. The US backed coalition has been losing power for a decade.

Marxism-Leninism isn't the only "legitimate" socialist ideology. Jesus Christ you tanks are hilarious.

And that is precisely why there is no winning in this war. Whether Assad wins or loses all this means is which bourgeoisie great power is going to strengthen themselves on the back of Syrian resources.

That's probably because ML and centrally planned economies are fucking stupid.

They are. I'm saying Assad and his booj government are not.

At least Marxism-Leninism implements socialism with building up industry, diversifying economy, planned economy, switching to production for use, etc.

None of which that revisionist gibberish of Democratic Confederalism gives a fuck about. Seriously, you can get the same shit in Donbass, but you don't support them because muh Putin.

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Well you can always have capitalism then I guess. Drop your bullshit about decentralized economies, they never worked, both in theory and in practice, and centrally planned economies did

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Lad, you seriously need to take up a career in comedy.

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Are you actually being serious right now?

That's because central planning =/= Socialism

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Donbass is no more socialist than Rojava you moron. DPR has worker councils, worker management and community councils.

False causation, I never said that, but explain to me how to abolish production for exchange in a decentralized economy

Yeah sure so I guess the USSR becoming an industrial superpower with a super high living standard within three decades starting as a feudal peasents nation is the definition of "not working".

It's funny with your Kurdfags, all your arguments are sound carbon copied from literal CIA propaganda. You don't even engage in a materialist or economic critique.

Yeah and I guess it imploding is the definition of "working".

Tell me why you think it imploded.

Planned economy didn't implode. It was deliberately dismantled by the ones in power. Again, CIA propaganda. Goddammit man.

Did you know that if the GDR didn't have to pay war reparations, didn't have all the brain drain to Russia and the FRG wasn't showering with billions during the Marshal plan would have led to the GDP per capita being 10 times higher in Easy Germany than in West Germany, according to newest calculations?

It didn't "implode" you moron, it was willfully dismantled.

Read a fucking book.

Maybe if it was decentralized they wouldn't have been able to dismantle it. Ever consider that?

The economy didn't implode. It was demolished politically.

Fuck off and read a book, basically.

You then:
You now:

Tankies, not even once.

I appreciate you probably think replying to three posts at once with a witty zinger is very clever but I would much prefer it if you vacated the ranks of people shitting up every thread right now and went and found something else to do. Like go into the reading thread and find a book to read

Everything you need to know
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Developments Jun17

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Actually I have, and the reality of the matter is that Western intervention was a major factor in its dismantling, and if democracy had actually held sway it would have remained under communist control instead of being looted by capitalist mafia.

Kill yourself dipshit.

You are a fucking moron, a planned economy the way it worked under Stalin wasn't at all subjugated to the whims of the Politburo, it was organized by the Gosplan and democratically applied with bottom-up feedback systems in the respective regions.

The USSR underwent a process of revisionism starting with Krushchev, who liberalized the autonomy of managers of the firms, and eventually turned the Eastern Bloc into a huge sweatshop for the West, basically reestablishing production for exchange, which led to market forces taking hold of the economy. By the time Gorbachev came into power, the traditional planning institutions like Gosplan were acting according to the whims of the market, ergo rendered powerless, but the state was still main shareholder over the cooperatives, so Gorbachev could do his right-wing reforms not because it was centrally planned, but exactly because it wasn't.

Stay mad

Okay this sounds really interested and now I'd like to find out if I've been wrong this entire time.

Do you know of any good books on the following topics
a) How the economy worked under Stalin particularly the democracy of it
b) How Khruschev changed things
c) Criticisms of decentralized socialism

When will the Neoliberal Ba'athists go? I want Nasser back

jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/

This doesn't tell you everything you need to know but it ain't a bad place to start.

ia600506.us.archive.org/1/items/WorkersParticipationInTheSovietUnion/Workers Participation in the Soviet Union.pdf

archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.261348

eastsidemarxism.wordpress.com/stalin-and-democracy/

eastsidemarxism.wordpress.com/stalin-and-collectivization/

oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrmenu.html

Fixed it for you.

Fixed it for you both.

how is an alliance with USA/Saudi Arabia completely justified but such a deal with the Syrian government is "compromising their principles"

the original was destroyed anyway by Holla Forums's shitty code so it really doesn't matter

🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧thanks🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

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thats why all those groups are branded the "SDF".

do you even follow whats happening there? iraq is shifting to iran.

both are two militant groups with supporters from across the globe because people like their fundaments. and both threaten stability in the region.

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ever heard of the petrodolar dumbass?

The thing is that's not the debate. The point raised was that the government doesn't control shit when clearly it does.

This is literally horseshoe theory level reaching for superficial similarities.

Yes the reason Rojava are good is because of their ideology. No it's not bad that they're destabilizing a bourgeois dictatorship.

so the endgame goals are what? to have the proletariat live better and have more power.
now lets see syria. people in goverment controled areas are rebuilding and are returning to lifes like before the war. on the other hand you have decades more of war and destruction for a hypothetical chance of something happening, under the conditions the US will not fuck it up, wich it has all intents to do so.

noice

yes.

Yes. We should not continue to fight the revolution because that's hard and it will destroy stuff. Instead we should just accept the status quo and try to make the best of life under bourgeois rule.

Brilliant.

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my god how retarded yre you?!
the whole point of the war is US influence in the region you dumbass, how autistic can you get?

no, its an objective analysis of the social impacts of both grops.

so if ISIS said it was suddenly communist youd join their jihad right?

whats with the missing files? what did you post

also:
see this guy >>1743817

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Can you calm your tits for just one second and realize what is being said?
The point the other person raised is that the Iraqi government isn't truly in control when as we can see there clearly they are - the Iraqi government are the biggest in Iraq by far.
The point they raised was not that Iraq is under Iranian influence.

It's not but.
"They both have foreign fighters and they're both against the government" is on the level of "Nazis and communists both have red on their flags" - it is a totally superficial and pointless observation.

In the Spanish civil war the nationalists and the republicans both had foreign volunteers - does this mean they're the exact same too according to your horseshoe theory logic?

I have no words.

wrong. the point was that the american puppet goverment didnt control shit after 2004. whats leading the iraqi forces today is alot more than a US puppet goverment.

what is the main point of the war in the region?

they had the same system of international ties and alliances.
i never mentioned ideology.
the whole idea of modern assymetrical warfare is that ideology is just a tool, an opiate for the masses to acheive geopolitical goals.

dont run away from an argument. its hypothetical.
if ISIS was a communist revolution instead of a jihad would you support it?

Would you?

It's after 2004
It's a continuation of the same government
They control the vast majority of Iraq.

Well that depends who you ask. It's a four sided war with many different international supporters. The "point" varies wildly depending on perspective.

Yes?
And that's good.

Obviously. This is my point, it's a completely retarded hypothetical.

You may as well ask
You're just slapping the same name on a completely different thing.

no because its a short-lived spasm of force that does nothing but destabilise a part of the world that is vournable and antagonistic to the US

Does the end state of the Syrian conflict actually matter in a significant way?

Bit OT but I really like the map. Without the turkish and kurdish areas such a state seems pretty sensible economically and gepolitically.
It could be big enough to be its own actor in the region on par with Iran, Turkey and the Saudis. Sucks that this will never happen….

dont pretend to be stupid. we both know this was about the immidiate post-sadam provisional goverment

except its full of different people who are closer to iran than the US

youre not even arguing about the geopolitical situation, youre just trying to twist things so that you can make what you said seem correct.
the whole point is the geopolitical situation, not some "de jure" bullshit that has no standing on the field.

wrong. its about the control of states and its resources in the region. its what it was always about, and its what it will always be about. it doesent matter what some guy with a rifle hiding in the rubble beleives hes fighting for.

so all the US has to do is say it support the global proletariats revolution and everything they do is ok?
wew.

so the only thing that matters to you is the ideological beleifs of a specific group, nothing else.
thanks, all i needed to know.

Given he also said "it won't control anything after 2018" I think he's also operating on the view that it's a continuation of the same government.

But that doesn't make it a different government?
If the French government got filled out with pro-Russian supporters would it no longer be the fifth republic?

Why, that is simply a brilliant observation. The point of the war is to consolidate control of the state and the state's resources.

Why lets not just take the reductionism even further! The point of the war is about winning. Aren't I smart?

Honestly yeah. If the USA embraced a sincere commitment to socialist ideas then great.

Yes, the ideological beliefs of a group is what informs everything they do. ISIS would not be throwing gays off buildings if they weren't Islamic fundamentalists. Rojava would not be collectivizing the economy if they were not socialists.

Unless you're a leftcom I think you know the answer.

Qatar is officially anti-imperialist now.

Assad is neither. Stop this false representation of him as some "Secular savior". He's routinely enlisted foreign Shia Jihadis that are often not much better than most of the rebels.

looks gay. now go make a flag that doesn't look like a swastika.

So he uses whatever forces he can get his hands on. The ruling ideology of Syria is still Baathism aka secular.

Even Ba'athism isn't secular. Aflaq said that Islam had helped develop Arab culture in a way that was unique to other religions. Even if Assad was secular, he's not "progressive" at all and has embraced neoliberalism in the economy.

Well, the flag does belong to a fascist party…

It's like those "cultural christian" retards. They don't actually believe in anything but like the aesthetics.
Neoliberalism is progressive compared to Islamist feudalism.

No, I mean, what are the strategic consequences of Assad holding onto power vs. balkanization for the major powers backing their various puppets?

You do realize that under Assad Christian and Jews are more protected as they would be unter an islamic state? Really man, you gotta make a fair comparison, for Muslim standards Ba'athism is really fucking secular. Even "moderate" Muslim countries like Indonesia are less secular than Syria.

A chance for the region to develop on its own instead of being in a state of constant civil war thanks to foreign intervention.

Why would it be Syrian? Greater Syria, Israel etc visions all aim for roughly that land because it makes a geopolititically stable entity.
One of the main objective of imperialist powers like Britain, France and the US has been to stop these lands from uniting
because of the power such a state would be able to project. Culturally these lands have been very close for the longest time,
it's only the 20th century when the region got divided into seperate nations, mostly by imperialist forces.

meant for

You're ignoring the massive increase of Shia militias because of it
Prepare for more sectarian murder

All the arguments ITT against is it just trite "muh anti-imperialism". The US is no fucking different than Russia, they're both Capitalists trying to further their own geopolitical interests at the expense of the proletariat. There was either making an alliance with either of them, or being destroyed.

Because there's no necessarily a conflict of interests between the US and Rojava, but there absolutely would be between the SDF and Assad. Supporting him would completely ruin their credibility among the Syrian people, way more than a strategic alliance with the US.

...

/thread

maybe you should look up some statistics where over 70% of syrias population live and who they support.

thanks america.

oxy elements within the administration, yes.

yes it does. the whole point of the wars in iraq was who will lead it and for who

when the US would inevitably launch a color revolution there i suppose it wouldnt.

what else is it about? democracy and chemical weapons, dumbass?

why dont you have a picture of stalin in your room then

on the US proxy elements within the administration.

yes it does. the whole point of the wars in iraq was who will lead it and for who

when the US would inevitably launch a color revolution there i suppose it wouldnt.

what else is it about? democracy and chemical weapons?

why dont you have a picture of stalin in your room then

Not "puppet factions", but rather "puppet government". He explicitly said the government.

That is completely and utterly retarded. Because the dominant faction of a government has changed through the established administrative channels of the original this does not make it a different government.

That's dodging the question.
If every single person elected to the French government was pro-Putin would it no longer be the fifth republic at the moment they took office?

As I said it depends which faction you mean. They all have different goals and motivations. Reducing it to consolidating control of the state is as I said about as worth pointing out as saying it's about winning. It's so glaringly obvious that you have to wonder what whoever pointed it out was thinking.

Because I'm not a tankie.

US-led coalition downed Syrian army plane in southern Raqqa - Syrian army statement
rt.com/news/392941-us-led-coalition-downed-syrian-plane/

Is America basically at war with Syria at this point?

The Empire doesn't need to make it official.

grasswire.com/2017/06/syria-us-coalition-says-reports-10-year-deal-ypg-false/

Apparently the 10-year alliance the US and YPG signed are false.

SDF claiming they were attacked by SAA before the event twitter.com/arawnsley/status/876536141570330624

Sorry CJTFOIR claimed it

Why should we believe this news source either?

what fuckin bussines do they have in syria, or on the eurasian continent as a whole? burgers need to stay in their own cave.

Why shouldn't you?

the iraqi goverment was fully US controlled in 2004.
trough the years, especially in 2008, 2011 and 2016 poro-iranian factions took over in the administration

hitlers germany was weimar republic then

it would still be, thats "dejure". but anyone that takes "dejure" over "defacto" is retarded.

no. none of it would be happening if world powers didnt want control in the region. absolutely none.

but he was a communist, didnt you say thats all that matters?

True, but that doesn't even touch on the point at hand. It's still the same government and it controls the vast majority of Iraq.

This is the importance of the France example, if we take that as a precedent then we can consider the minimum for "different government" to be a major constitutional change. For instance in the Weimar Republic towards the end the Nazis were the biggest party, the most dominant faction were the NSDAP, but it was still the Weimar republic. It only became "Nazi Germany" after Hitler became the chancellor and heavily altered the government to a point at which it was totally distinct to the Weimar Republic.

But it's still defacto the same government, it still has the exact same constitutional structure. It just has politicians with different opinions in power - that's all that has changed.

None of it would be happening if Assad wasn't a tinpot dictator either.

To an extent, and in that sense I do like Stalin. It doesn't mean I love Stalin enough to hang pictures of him up in my room, likewise my support of Rojava isn't firm enough to paint my house with YPG flags. I support them both, but I'm critical in that support.

the POINT is that an US proxy goverment doesent control most of iraq because the current goverment is closer to iran

and a pro-russian france would be distinctively different too.
the label "X republic" is irrelevant at this point

how about you borrow a dictionary

irrelevant. none would be happening if the entire region was nuked. see how retarded that is?

so nothing but ideology matters is that it

Which is less shit and which should I critically support: Assad or Rojava?

Rojava
Both really

I don't know why you're scrambling so hard to defend a point you didn't even originally make.

The same government the US established following the Iraq war is still in charge, it controls the vast majority of Iraq. It has different people in it but it's still the same government. Where is the problem?

It wouldn't though. It would be the exact same government just with a different attitude to foreign policy.

Not like when Hitler turned the Weimar Republic into a single-party state under a centralized dictator. As opposed to how the Weimar Republic was a multi-party democracy.

How about you learn some basic government and politics. If you're retarded enough to think a government is not the same government it was 10 years ago just because it has different politicians in it you need it.

Now you get it. Pointing out "oh but what if" is absolutely ridiculous when the only thing that matters is what is.

Strictly speaking material conditions are all that matters but my support for states and leaders hinges on the ideologies they suggest to change those material conditions.

If the US's solution for the middle-east was full socialism you can be rest assured I would support the US. Alas it is not, so I don't.

Russian military halts Syria sky incident prevention interactions with US as of June 19 – Moscow
rt.com/news/393028-syria-russia-us-plane/
!!!!!!!
>“In the areas of combat missions of Russian air fleet in Syrian skies, any airborne objects, including aircraft and unmanned vehicles of the [US-led] international coalition, located to the west of the Euphrates River, will be tracked by Russian ground and air defense forces as air targets,” the Russian Ministry of Defense stated.
!!!!!!!

Iran warns ISIS of more missile strikes, says op coordinated with Damascus
rt.com/news/393021-iran-warns-isis-strike/

TL;DR: on the scale from civilization to primitivism we are reaching Zerzan levels.

Imagine, there's a whole world without America ahead of us!

More like: there's a whole world without the world ahead of us.

Yes, I imagine this is how Americans see it.

This is an escalation from proxy war to an openly direct threat.

I don't particularly care anymore, it's obvious the US is never going to fuck off meddling in everything on the planet so anything that isolates them from the rest of the world is a good thing, even if it claims billions of lives.

turkey is posadist, this is all according to plan

...

I can't get hyped anymore. This just makes me more cynical at this point.

im scared guys

Don't worry, you won't feel a thing.

it's not, it's bullshit asshurt tankies and maoist turd worldists spout

b) countries are forced to buy US exports.
these are contradictory statements, a more valuable currency means more expensive exports. The US has currently the larest trade deficit on eart by far.

...

dont you know how anything works? countries buy the dollar to trade intrnationally.

finnaly some good news

...

The moment shit looks grim everyone starts hoping on the whole "muh US proxy" shit

Who?

"Support Isis"
Are you really that retarded?

Why don't you want to support one of the few anti-imperialist states left? Assad is obviously better for the region then another US puppet with some lip service to feminism and socialism

Idk creating a new thread and the general tone of this Thread kinda seem like more and more comrades are losing faith in the Rojava revolution and falling for the assad meme instead

Because it's extremly fucking Nationalist and the fact that the SDF is still not part of the US empire there's a lot more history to this movement then just the Syrian Civilwar (including a long ML period in the PKK) they are still socialist and revolutionary (more then a fucking Ba'athist)

whats wrong with Assad?

you can't be a "revolutionary socialist" and be allied with the united states.

Sorry for the shitty structure and Punctuation I'm kinda drunk right now

Well there wasn't much of an Alternative it was working with the US or risking total destruction through the Islamic State.

they should be working with Assad regime.

And why would Assad have worked with a Group of (at that time) weak rebels?

Also they where for a while and are Kinda still doing that but the end of that alliance is pretty near seing how Russia and Turkey seem to be Working Together now,

Why?

they should have never rebelled against Assad and only organized against ISIS.

They aren't real socialist and support US imperialism/

Have there been any good US puppets out there?
Not rethorical, honest question

Assad isn't real socialist and he supports Russian imperialism.

Glorious Nippon.

They took controll of the area the Syrian Goverment had left behind

Assad abandoned them in 2011 leaving the YPG to defend for themselves.

Assad isn't Socialist at all. He's liberalized the economy and allowed private defense units. Also
I forgot, anything outside of Marxism-Leninism isn't "Real Socialism"

Russian support will be better for the region than american imperialism

Why?

Israel have US support and they're doing great.

At the expense of everyone else in the middle east except the Saudis.

US imperialism needs to be defeated, only then can real socialism develope in the region. And ML is the only successful ideology, only other cases are too short lIves and/or small scale to matter

He doesn't give a damn about human lives.

If you support the US you are not a comrade

I don't think anyone is. However, US support is what saved Rojava from complete destruction early on, and has helped Rojava actually stay a thing.

Okay, honest request here. Can someone explain what anti-imperialism means? What it would mean for a group to be anti-imperialist?

Let me rephrase that. If you do not oppose the US you are not a comrade.

let me spell it out like i would for a retard
T-H-E I-R-A-Q G-O-V-E-R-M-E-N-T I-S N-O-T G-O-I-N-G A-S P-L-A-N-N-E-D

some strange books youre reading, do they also say countries follow constitutions and international law to the point?

then whats the cause of the war?

1) syrians had it better before the war than they will for decades
2) the US intends to exploit and alienate the material goods of syria, including via proxies

1) syria is a multiethnic country with a multiethnic army
2) its a war and motivation like that is needed
3) the nationalism is a reaction to all the foregein threats that attack syria

*yet

that oil, tho

he worked with them in pockets in aleppo, northern syria and the far northeastern tip of the country when the US hadn yet started spinning its coalition shit.

see case study: iraq, libya, somalia, yugoslavia, afganistan, etc…

...

OH BOY

...

Source?

to be aware of which power is violating autonomy of others to monopolise on power and to fight against it

the whole point of the petrodollar is that countries use the dollar for trade.
gaddafi tried to make the african dinar
KILL
saddam wanted to shift to euro after the first war
KILL
iran is trying anything but the dollar
hurr durr they have nukes we ave to kill em

...

whats wrong with you? the reason people didnt leave was the same as it is in all wars. they dont wanna leave because its their home. youd be flipping shit if the SAA "forcebly kidnapped" them to save them from ISIS

How is that a negative

I mean, when you say that they offered them to come with them without giving any statement or transcript from the army that says so, why should I listen to your obvious bullshit? If the Army really gave a damn then, why did they evacuate the region altogether and let Ras al-Ayn nearly fall to Jihadists?

If you were a real communist, you would understand the necessity of bombing a daycare to stop imperialism.

because retreat was the only acceptable tactital option to continue fighting in the war.
speaking of abandonment:
youtu.be/RWnsc3wkKbU

call it propaganda, you cant disprove it.

i dont know. id have to have a huge complex and bias towards the SDF to know that.

he was sheepdipped by the federal agencies after they hired him and a group of other ex-marines for the operation. theres a whole documentary about the guy.

Don't talk about the petrodollar in a Rojava thread. They don't want to hear this information.

K buddy. You do realize that there's an entire Assyrian unit in the SDF, right?

...

She's been right about a lot of stuff. It's a war man. Even your darlings will eventually do something bad.

But aren't all powers involved _built_ upon the systematic violation of peoples autonomy? Both in Syria itself and in the various foreign backers of the war. I have a hard time swallowing the imposition of one iron heel over a nation rather than another just because one is more detrimental to the hegemony of the petrodollar or whatever. (If I'm misrepresenting anything, just throw the facts at me)

I don't deny that war crimes may or may not have been committed by the SDF/YPG, but PartisanGirl isn't the best source for this at all. Her twitter is full of abject falsehoods.

now you just have to put the greater good of the peoples in the area in the equation

does not adress anything

and there are whole platoons of kurdish soldiers in the SAA and NDF.
what about it?

Serious question. Did Assad kill his own people?

He no more killed his "own people" than the rebels. Certainly more civilians have died because of his forces, but the rebels are just as brutal as him, if that makes sense.

I'm usually very up to date on geopolitics but today's news has left my head spinning. Can some please contextualize the significance of all this.

What does it matter if they were "his" people? Is it better to do like the US and kill the other people?

...

Well I mean is he a dictator that violently oppressed his own people like Saddam. Or did he kill no more people than governments generally do and it's being blown out of proportion for the sake of a war.

It is this. Very little killing would have happened without the US and the Gulf monarchies fomenting an armed opposition.

wow, you're right, we've never heard about the petrodollar before
this is new and intriguing information

There were reports for years on how Assad brutalized his citizens–why do you think it was so easy for opposition to spread?

It pales in comparison to what the war has wrought. It is the greatest calamity that can befall mankind.

go cry about it in your newspaper, assad cuck.

.02 riyal has been deposited into your account

...

Yeah, sure, "Assad" gassed people. How many layers of liberalism are you on right now, fam?

That was the Peshmerga in Iraq under the KRG, retard.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

there isn't tho lmao

there's a marginal kurdish sub unit in ahar al sham but that's it

>en.wikipedia.org
I'm sure a Holla Forumsyp lurks behind every corner for you.

Yeah, I bet Wikipedia has a lot of articles about things you don't believe exist

Hah, just what I would expect from a Rojava supporting US imperialist. don't think it's strange that every "death camp" was liberated by the Russians and western investigators weren't allowed near them?

Yeah, I guess I have to agree. To me it seems clear that the SDF are far and away the major group with the politics most amiable to 'freedom/quality of life' or whatever you'd call it that we're optimising for - and with a track record of pretty major social advances in particular areas. That's the impression I've gotten. I'm not sure how much the involvement of the US can really be said to change that.

Would be happy to hear any other viewpoints.

I'm capping my first copycat

meant for>>1788930

not trying to mislead, dude, chill

For reference, posts in this thread are >>1788388 &

Actually since he lives next to it, rather than right in it he'll have the joy of living through the dozens if strikes while suffering from burns and radiation poisoning but not actually die right away.

tfw your town is relatively unimportant on a national and global scale so you won't have to wait for Bethesda to release the next Fallout to enjoy post-apocalyptic fun

Yeah, but at least it won't break his heart.

What does Saddam gain from trading oil in Euros?

Australia halts air strikes in Syria after Russia-US tensions over downed Damascus jet
rt.com/news/393166-australia-halts-flights-syria/

Undermining the petrodollar.

...

because the entire western propaganda machine was in on it to push for an invasion, you dumbass?

...

you have to be joking.
i cant wait till you start talking about barrels and hellcanons

ofcourse there isnt.
the syrian army consists strictly of alawite death squads and shia militias

just look to every other case where the US "interviened"

undermining the petrodollar and evading US and gulf states sanctions, aswell as giving a big middle finger to Cheney and bush

Why would Saddamn want to undermine the petrodollar? Look across the fucking border to Saudi Arabia. It's not like Saddam was a Communist with some grand plan to start a global capitalist collapse by undermining the petrodollar to bring about a revolutionary moment. Every other currency is backed by the USD, you know.

see

...

assad never did nuffin

80% of tankies these days are just edgy liberals

mfw tankies shill for Assad because muh anti-imperialism even though he's the Arab Pinochet

You seem to be implying that an ideology must already have won state power to be valid.

This is a terrible argument and this logic would imply Marxism-Leninism itself was invalid before the October Revolution. Thus making the actions of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin et al. a mistaken.

ISIS is also imperialist. They want to erect Allah's empire on earth.

must some kind of chess, eight?

no
no
no
no

...

Wouldn't that crash the global economy with no survivors?

Yeah edgy teens with a boner for strong men truly are the most hard core socialists

anyone got pics of qts?

no, because anyone that isnt either a complete dumbfuck or a US proxy would immidiatly switch to some gold-backed currency, probably the chinese one. The western sphere of influence would go down the drain, with china, russia and iran with their production and resources dominating the new global market

are you implying youre gay or something?

Why is the Frog there?

...

If /leftpol, Twitter and Facebook existed in 1939 you'd just know most tankies would use the same arguments defending Assad to defend Hitler because muh lesser-evilism. Even right down to the irredentist nationalism as I'm sure quite a few tankies unironically support the Ba'athist 'Greater Syria' concept of annexing Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon and Palestine.

I wonder why every nazi on Holla Forums is in love with such mutlicultural freedom fighters.

This.

...

I want to say "that's not entirely fair, Germany is west of the Line" but a lot of communist parties opposed entry into WW2 from Molotov-Ribbentrop until Barbarossa. The CPUSA, for instance, almost destroyed itself doing just that.

i dont think so.

...

...

Are the SDF/YPG/Rojava basically imperialist proxies at this point? What happens when the US decides it doesn't need them anymore?

Mosul collapsing

are the viet mihn basicaly imperialist proxies at this point what happens when the allies no longer need them?

They'll be served up on a platter like all prior US ethnic minority groups they've supported in civil wars
The US has completely lost in Syria and driven away one of their most important allies with their support for the Kurds, so they'll try to back track in order to prevent the Turks from jumping to the SCO

The SAA, Iranians, and Turks will end up smashing them pretty quickly

just bumping this thread so the cock be be sunk

Turkey: US tells Turkey we'll "take back weapons" supplied to Kurdish YPG in Syria after they beat ISIS.
archive.is/fd4Ur

Rumors now circulating that Russia and the US have agreed on a safe-zone in southern #Syria, that would halve Iranian influence
twitter.com/michaelh992/status/877891481696169984

Turkish Pres. spox: TR &Russia will probably be in charge of İdlib as part of deconfliction zones, delegations still working on the plan
twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/877891156977123329

…how do they intend to do that?

Keep in mind it's Turkey saying it, but if it's true, I imagine through some "deconfliction process" or fighting with wonderful NATO ally Turkey

gotta hand it to those PMU guys, when you see those IS videos with drones and carbombs it really sucks to be in that urban combat

...

...

Maybe by buying them back, like the man pads in Afghanistan in the 80s.

Not bad. I just want this war to be over. I don't give a fuck about ideological concerns (is ba'athism or demconfed more socialist? who cares?)

heh i can already see someone getting butthurt over your post and giving you shit

Ba'athism isn't really Socialistic, and Assad isn't even an actual Ba'athist. He liberalized the economy in the early 2000s and has allowed private companies to form their own military units.

...

Liberals like States, police, and bureaucracy. So do tankies.

I don't get why people think every anarchist has to support rojava and every tankie has to support Assad.

Assad is ancap!

Saudis just issued a list of demands to Qatar
They have to fulfill them in 10 days or there will be "action" with US backing

British YPG fighters release statement on Grenfell disaster

youtube.com/watch?v=Z5chFLsq7dI

hafez already had these "defense companies" and gave them a free hand to crck down on terrorists in Hama.
not to mention the obvious economic logic behind those reforms

right back at you

because tankies are suppost to be people that prioritise strategy, logic and geopolitics over puny idealism,
while anarchists tend to do the opposite.

also kinda why you had so many "tankie states" and not so many anarchist…. "not-states?"

not here in europe. or in america asfar as i know. you must be from africa.

Kurds attacking #Yazidi workers in Bardarash/Kurdsitan/Iraq

twitter.com/ZayerHakari/status/878009724968611840

Tankies are people with a strongman fetish who only care about winning at any cost while ironically maintaining a sort of ideological purity when it comes to the West, whereas Anarchists tend to try to live by their ideals and not compromise them so that Socialism can someday be achieved, it'll happen this time I promise.

>Kurdish landlord abusing Yazidi worker in Iraq

What's the point of this?

...

so anarchists want to acheive communism by kicking trashcans every now and then?

I love this game!

slippery slope fallacy. stop being a retard and give some real arguments

I just don't understand yours. Iraqi Kurdistan and Rojava are very different in terms of treatment towards Yazidis. The YPG/PKK/YBS were the first group to help the Yazidis when they were trapped on Mount Sinjar, while the Peshmerga did nothing of the sort. What's the point of your argument?

my point is the moment that guy posted the video he was attacked by dumbasses because they tought it made their jolly club theyre rooting for look bad.

IDF STRIKES SYRIAN TARGETS NEAR GOLAN
jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Projectiles-fired-from-Syria-land-in-Golan-none-hurt-497866

They can't be getting away with it!!!!

It's Israel. They can get away with anything.

What do you guys think about Russias proposal for a new Syria?

sputniknews.com/politics/201701261050028006-text-syria-constitution/

It's a little bit paternalizing imo. Cutting the word "Arab" from it pretty much roots out Ba'athism.

Just saw this, what's with the cookie cutter headlines? Several of those papers are in competition.

sounds like a bullshit story tbh
yep

Here we go

Anyone else weirded out by this White House statement about how they supposedly have "evidence" that Assad is planning another chemical attack?

aranews.net/2017/06/white-house-warning-assad-regime-planning-new-chemical-attack/

They're creating consensus

Gonna push south of Afrin and create a path to Idlib, probably won't go for Afrin proper yet.

Twitter rumors that SDF may abandon Raqqa fight if Turkish offensive is real

OUR GIRL

>twitter.com/CivilWarMap/status/879772401738928128

O U R
G I R L
! ! ! ! ! !

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bump

fyi that guy didnt even shave before the film shooting and putting on the mask

Syria is just nazbol state in real life
read Dugin

Syria situation 1st January 2017 vs. 1st July 2017

what a qt

...

kurdishquestion.com/article/3950-rojava-039-s-economics-and-the-future-of-the-revolution

You can't make this shit up.

Why is there hardly any change regarding """"moderate"""" rebel controlled territory?

Probably due to the de-escalation zones established by Qatar around Idlib, Hama, East Ghouta and Daraa, although the latter has still seen heavy fighting.

They did lose some territory though, namely in the South near the Jordanian and Iraqi Borders.

Still Capitalist Social Democracy.

I mean, you could, but it wouldn't be funny and people would tell you it's a strawman.

then, here comes reality…

Not to mention that the latter is supported by Turkish Hoxhaists, MLs, and MLMs.