Marx and Bakunin

How accurate is this?

Was Marx being a statist instead of an anarchist his major downfall?

Lol Bakunin was a fucking idiot

stop contributing to this boards intellectual bankrupcy

Yeah, Bakunin basically predicted the Soviet Union in his many feverish debates with Marx while they were in the same international workers' association. Don't let any FUCKING BUTTHURT Marxoid tell you otherwise.

otherwise

Can you explain why it's wrong though?

...

Yes i'm sure it was because of that and not because…

Ok, a couple things. 1.) The Bolsheviks were being attacked from every direction so having a strong military was extremely significant. 2.) Yes, it was because of the material conditions of Russia that socialism was ultimately unattainable. You would know that if you ever bothered to read a fucking Wikipedia article about Marx instead of borrowing lolbertarian propaganda about statism.

No.

(also Bakunin would have lead the international had not Marx lived up to his stereotype and gone full shlomo tricks)

the USSR doomed itself by prioritizing socialism in one country over creating an international socialist movement. They had the opportunity to at least try and transition to socialism but the party bureaucracy was too busy building a state structure to care.

No not really. I can't think of any major difference between the DoTP in either Marxism or Anarchism.

You would unironically be sure if you ever opened a book.

I mean, they really did have to protect the revolution, would have been better spent on propping up Latin America more tho

out

Marx wasn't even a "statist" per se, at least not much more statist than Bakunin. Their main beef was over Bakunin's "invisible dictatorship" and general idealism / radical liberal tendencies.

Could you elaborate please.

Yeh pretty much everything Bakunin said was good apart from his bizzare boner for conspiracy and secret societies. Probably the Nechayev influence. Also his writings are all sub par IMO, still right about a lot of shit tho

Lenin probably had the revolution in hopes that other revolutions would succeed in other nations so that international cooperation between socialist nations would be possible.

The concept of Historical Materialism is BASIC Marxism. Although I'm not sure why I expected an anarkid to know about Marxism.

Other bolsheviks believed that openly. Fucking socdems killed any chance at communism when they killed Rosa.

Right. "Socialism in one country" is an oxymoron, but the policy can not be understood outside of the context of the failed revolutions in Europe post-WW1.

this tbh

hello fellow leftists

IMO anarchists have as much to learn from their historical failures as marxists do. I also think anarchists should really embrace anarchist communism instead of LARPing a 19th century feud between anarchists and communists. Anarchists who ignore Marx's excellent analysis of capitalism are retarded.

I completely agree, and wish other anarchists would do so aswell.

If we are to discuss the nature of Marxist "statism," it is necessary to understand what Marx meant by the "state" in the first place. In short, it's a tool for class oppression, which is for the most part vague enough that it naturally encompasses most of the actions that would normally be adopted by any revolutionary government that seeks to further the interests of the working class whether they be Marxist, anarchist, or other. This Marxist definition of state (along with a number of the more specific defining points of it) is largely consistent with the anarchist definition of government (of which we are not inherently opposed to); simply stating that Marxism is "statist" fails to capture the more nuanced critiques of the ideological tradition and methods.

There is also often an implication that comes around with such broad and impotent attacks on Marxism that the ML states of the 20th century were in some way a "natural consequence" of Marx's work some 50 years earlier. Marx's writings, from his economic critiques to his understanding of state to revolutionary methodology, have been interpreted and reinterpreted in such a variety of ways (everything from ML to what amounts to pseudo-anarchism) that we KNOW that there is more to be learned from Marxism than just "the Soviet Union was bad m'kay." On top of that, it's important to understand that ML emerged from a very specific time and place: underdeveloped early 20th century Russia and in the wake of the revolution failing to expand beyond Russia's borders. That doesn't necessarily justify the course of action taken, but it does at least in part highlight the logic the players involved acted upon.

tldr; "statism" as a critique is lolbert-tier and there is more to Marxism than just Leninism

10/10 post comrade

Accurate in the sense ML was a byproduct of Marxism. Whether that's because states or because other factors is unknown, but given how accurate Bakunin was about application of marxism it's at least worth planning something in case the DoP starts looking like a DoV.

w-what does that stand for again

Reading comprehension u dum nigger. It obviously means dictatorship of the vanguard.

that was an unreasonably rude response to user