Tankie general

A thread for general tankie topics

Other urls found in this thread:

eastsidemarxism.wordpress.com/stalins-famine-page/
eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/douglas-tottle-fraud-famine-and-fascism.pdf
web.archive.org/web/20091214102830/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html
web.archive.org/web/20081222111304/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam2.html
web.archive.org/web/20081224212931/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam3.html
web.archive.org/web/20081218174923/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam4.html
web.archive.org/web/20081221013818/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam5.html
robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/more-on-the-fake-holodomor/
espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/famine-of-1932/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
library.ndsu.edu/grhc/research/scholarly/book_reviews/pohl_review.html
languagesoftheworld.info/russia-ukraine-and-the-caucasus/stalins-ethnic-deportations-gerrymandered-ethnic-map.html
quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jii/4750978.0014.101/--tracing-the-steps-of-stalins-unreliable-people-koryo-saram?rgn=main;view=fulltext
espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/deportation-of-nations/
marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/index.htm
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/
youtube.com/watch?v=gS692MzFA7k
stalinsocietypk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/another-view-of-stalin1.pdf
clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
archive.org/stream/pdfy-nmIGAXUrq0OJ87zK/Khrushchev Lied_djvu.txt
mltheory.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/the-results-of-the-1st-2nd-soviet-five-year-plans-soviet-industrial-revolution/
balkanalysis.com/romania/2011/12/27/in-romania-opinion-polls-show-nostalgia-for-communism/
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/
telesurtv.net/english/news/Poll-Most-Russians-Prefer-Return-of-Soviet-Union-and-Socialism-20160420-0051.html
newcoldwar.org/in-levada-center-poll-most-russians-prefer-planned-economy-over-free-market/
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Daily reminder that tankies are not communists, socialists or even leftists.

I'm not a tankie but you're dumb.

(kinda depends on how you define tankie, though.)

Tankie??
Tankie is a derogatory term use by people that supported post 1956 revisionist USSR invasions, or even their procapitalist reforms.
So unless you support it (so you probably don´t like Stalin or socialism for the matter) don´t fall into the fucking meme used but pseudoleftists, critizising any real socialist country, or attemp to construct one.

You know how "tankie" is used on the internet nowadays so stop being autistic. ML's have started jokingly calling themselves tankies. It's not the end of the world.

This.

Tankie used to be a slur, but the best defense against is to just embrace it tbh.

Same with "Stalinist" which was originally brought up with the intention to imply that there is a incoherence between Stalin and Marxist and Leninist thought. People became so butthurt about the term Marxist-Leninist so they started calling everybody a Stalinist.

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Well Market "Socialists" aren't even socialists in the slightest, they are just capitalists who want employees to be stockholders.

Nah, the term tankie became a synonym for regular Marxist-Leninists a while ago, before the internet.

After the USSR fell, all the terms for advocates of a specific Soviet policy became obsolete.

I can understand people who think Stalin had no choice or that he did the best he could with a shitty situation (though I certainly don't agree with them because they're objectively wrong).

But I don't understand tankies who actually think Stalinist or even post-Stalinist USSR was a good Marxist model or that Stalin was a good theorist (when he wasn't even really a theorist at all).

Pre-Khrushchev USSR was an international superpower with most of the world's oil and metals.

How did the post-Stalin chairmen fuck it all up so bad?

I actually witnessed the term change meaning in the last 5-7 years, so I call BS on your pre-internet claim.

Fair enough. Since we both rely on anecdotal evidence and probably don't live in the same country we have no way to to settle that.

LUKA BOYS SOUND OFF

When did Stalinists and old-guard M-Ls become tankies? It was maize man that denounced uncle Joe and send tanks into Hungary.

Markets are just a distribution mechanism.

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there's a bit more to socialism than that…

Not all MLs just people who like Stalin. Which includes some non-MLs.

Except that the market which MarkSocs advocate is inherently capitalist, it works with commodity production and exchange value which ultimately leads to what Marx defined as wage labor. Socialism is collective ownership of means of production, not ownership of a factory. There is barely a difference between a joint-stock company in modern capitalism and a MarkSoc cooperative, only that the shares are more distributed and everybody who owns a share works in the company.

Not really.

Are there any ML's who dislike Stalin? I mean you don't need to view him like some sort of hero or anything but calling yourself a Marxist-Leninist seems a bit weird if you hate the guy who pretty much "created" the ideology.

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>>>Holla Forums

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Yeah that definition includes non-marxist strains for socialism such as distributism and other forms of utopian socialism. Even on a Wikipedia the definition is better. Considering that non-marxist socialist tendencies are almost all beyond dead, I'd say that we should stick to "collective ownership of means of production".

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You don't need to be a Leftcom for that. Even amongst liberals and right-wingers this is not the established definition of socialism.

How do I become a tankie?

Utopian socialism and distributes are still alive. Also that’s the original deffiniton of socialism. Also utopian socialism is making a comeback.

But utopian socialism is what it is precisely because it is utopian and plans everything in advance without regard for the material world as it is, rather than how it exists in ideas, thus being rather idealism. Are you one?

"You wouldnt tank a federal building, right, leftists?"

The way the world works now is unsustainable, and a perfect world requires new technology. So a perfect world would be in the future and it can’t exist now. So I guess so.

So your plan is that if you imagine it really hard then you can solve the world's problems without studying?

lier

How am I lying? What is your theory?

Someone tell me why Holodomor don't really and the 80 gorillion is fudged

They say the Holodomor was because of kulaks hoarding grain.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe it was a deliberate extermination. There are plenty of cases under Stalin's rule of ethnic cleansing and forced removal; this just happened to have been a bigger incident.

98% of all Kulaks were Jews.

Stalin did the right thing.

Seems legit.

HOLODOMOR DEBUNKED

eastsidemarxism.wordpress.com/stalins-famine-page/

eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/douglas-tottle-fraud-famine-and-fascism.pdf

web.archive.org/web/20091214102830/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam1.html

web.archive.org/web/20081222111304/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam2.html

web.archive.org/web/20081224212931/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam3.html

web.archive.org/web/20081218174923/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam4.html

web.archive.org/web/20081221013818/http://www.plp.org/cd_sup/ukfam5.html

robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/more-on-the-fake-holodomor/

espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/famine-of-1932/


source: your ass

Ask yourself how Mao and Stalin can kill a third of their population but achieve a massive population growth at the same time

I see this meme but I need the itty gritty, where did the statistic come from that say it was gorillions and why were they wrong.

I'm not being snarky i am willing to believe

And, you know, all these:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
library.ndsu.edu/grhc/research/scholarly/book_reviews/pohl_review.html
languagesoftheworld.info/russia-ukraine-and-the-caucasus/stalins-ethnic-deportations-gerrymandered-ethnic-map.html
quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jii/4750978.0014.101/--tracing-the-steps-of-stalins-unreliable-people-koryo-saram?rgn=main;view=fulltext

Well, it's hard to debunk the individual claims which are made one by one, I posted a bunch of information about the Holodomor above.

The first ones who came up with the gorillions meme where the Nazis, Goebbels in particular. They said that most Bolsheviks and commissars were Jews, which engaged in mass executions of ethnic slavs. You can find a lot about this conspiracy theory still on Holla Forums.

Later on most of the claims come from Robert Conquest (who was CIA), even the Wiki pages about the Holodomor etc. almost exclusively cite Robert Conquest. Even most liberal historians have stated that Stalin and Mao can in no way kill this many people - and even Conquest admitted himself later he inflated the numbers.

Wikipedia even cites the Black Book of Communism - that this isn't a sincere source is obvious.

In younger times, it was Rudolph Rummel who made claims about this in his 1994 work Death by Government. However, he is a straight out liar. He claims that the GDR killed 70.000 (!!!) people. Mind you, the GDR never had a famine. A short look at the people killed by the GDR government (this includes criminals):

Killed at the border: 872
Through death sentence: 166

Explain to me how this guy can claim that the GDR killed 70k people. It's straight out propaganda and the guy is nothing but a liar.

can we talk about how higher stage communism is bullshit?

it assumes no scarcity, which is utopian
lefties after learning about waste of food to keep prices high enough so that farming remains profitable make uneducated guess that we already live in a post scarcity world
they don't know that first world level of food consumption is not sustainable at the worldwide scale with the current level of technology
they don't know that modern big farms are perfect environment for various pathogens to spread creating devastating farm animal epidemics
they don't know that these pathogens can mutate and adapt to humans like HIV and Bird Flu and many others
they don't know that pathogens becoming more and more resistant to antibiotics, and humanity still doesn't have any other effective method to fight pathogens
they think that science is like magic
"oh, those scientists sure will think of something! arrow of progress is a one way trip, humanity overcame epidemics, it is all history now!"
they don't know or don't want to know about peak oil
they think that humanity can repalce all hydrocarbons used in production with renewables without massive repercussions for costs and therefore productivity

those are factors that are external to any economic system
socialist system will need to deal with them somehow
and to deal with them we need a plan and we need a framework to enforce this plan, not some amorphic communist bullshit with free association and shiet

higher stage communism is like a limit
socialist society can approach this limit but it will never achieve it

It comes from Black Book of Communism and several contributors apparently disavowed it for inaccuracy. This should be well known on Holla Forums.

as a tankie, sending tanks into hungary was shitty
so was suppressing dissent instead of getting new ideas and letting bourgeois morons embarrass themselves by crying about "muh property"
making socialism in one country instead of autistically waiting eight million years for porkies to finish off industrialization everywhere then revolting everywhere at once was absolutely the best move, though

I'm not denying that population transfers happened, but the claims about the death toll or the conditions under which those population transfers happened are often exaggerated.

I looked at some of your links and I fail to see actual sources as to were these authors got their exact information from.

espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/deportation-of-nations/

Russia opened the Soviet archives a while ago, I doubt that many of these claimants actually went there.

Yep, sounds about par for the course with tankies.

I can reject utopian parts of Marxist theory and still be a Marxist

When you're forcibly transporting massive population into uninhabited, isolated frozen wastelands under the guidance of an unaccountable local bureaucratic military-policing complex, it's not at all inconceivable that this would result in hundreds of thousands and, yes, even millions of deaths.

I don't see any of those figures as particularly unbelievable.

Sounds like you think that the USSR was some sort of real life manifestation of Warhammer: 40k. Jesus Christ man, this never happened. Siberia is still wildly unpopulated.

I do, especially when you look at the actual population growth.

Found out recently that I have a dead relative who was a massive tankie. He was a member of the ML communist party here and lived in the USSR for a while. Found a book by Stalin about leninism at my grandmothers house that he left behind when he died.
Very odd considering my family is fairly petite-bourgosie and really class-cucked over all.

Foundations on Leninism?

Armchair Marxist here. I admittedly don't understand Marxism-Leninism very much, beyond studies into Soviet history. At the same time, I believe many common dismissals of Marxism-Leninism are unfair. So I have a lot of questions, in good faith.

Do you guys actually care about about abolishing wage labor and the value form? If so, why have no Marxist-Leninists movements made this a priority?

What is socialism for you guys? Prominent twitter tankie Eugen_Levine seems to believe that socialism just means "rule by a socialist government". Is this respective of ML attitudes in general?

What exactly does imperialism mean?

Lastly, do you guys belief your activities will spur revolution?

You should read Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR by Stalin. Especially section 2 (Commodity Production Under Socialism) and 3 (The Law of Value Under Socialism). It's pretty short. Here you go marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/index.htm

No, I think any proper ML would say that that's fucking stupid.

This is from Imperialism: the Highest Stage of Capitalism by Lenin

Of course, wage labor and value form are both results of production for exchange, instead of production for use. Several Marxist-Leninists countries almost entirely abolished value form and wage labor because they had production for use. I hear some Leftcoms defining value somewhat broader, which makes it transhistorical (as in not restricted to capitalism). According to the more broader definition, yes, USSR did have the value form.

The complete abolition of value form is hard to achieve without world revolution though. USSR exported stuff to finance their industrialization (which was clearly production for exchange, which means value form), but once that was achieved, particulary between 1945 and 1956 I'm not so sure if production for exchange really did operate in the USSR. Stalin points this out in Economic Problems of the USSR that that an entire abolition of the value form can not be achieved in just one country. However, the export sector of the USSR war considerably small - only under revisionist governments in the 70s the Eastern Bloc turned into some sort of export hit for the west.

No, tankie twitter are a bunch of mentally ill SJWs.


marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

No idea, but considering no other tendency had ever spurred a succesful revolution, ML makes the most sense to me

probably. Its not in english an is just called "Leninism"

I also recommend this video, it adresses a lot of your points, and also responds to various claims made against ML

youtube.com/watch?v=gS692MzFA7k

Eeeeehhh I sorta like the finnish bolshevik but he's just rambling in many of his videos and I don't think he's going to convince any leftcoms to become Marxist-Leninists.

He's becoming significantly better in his latest videos

true

what right wing opposition in Belarus?

Which?

But the USSR always had money and wage labor. I don't understand how value-for-exchange could have been abolished.

Similarly, don't MLs acknowledge that world revolution is necessary? Didn't Lenin recognize that they could only transition to communism once much of the imperialist world had adopted socialist principles?

As I understand it, the ML view is that under Stalin labour power was no longer a commodity. Since wage labour is defined as commodified labour power, you can't say that the Soviet Union had a system of wage labour.

"It is said that commodity production must lead, is bound to lead, to capitalism all the same, under all conditions. That is not true. Not always and not under all conditions! Commodity production must not be identified with capitalist production. They are two different things. Capitalist production is the highest form of commodity production. Commodity production leads to capitalism only if there is private owner-ship of the means of production, if labour power appears in the market as a commodity which can be bought by the capitalist and exploited in the process of production, and if, consequently, the system of exploitation of wageworkers by capitalists exists in the country. Capitalist production begins when the means of production are concentrated in private hands, and when the workers are bereft of means of production and are compelled to sell their labour power as a commodity. Without this there is no such thing as capitalist production.

Well, and what is to be done if the conditions for the conversion of commodity production into capitalist production do not exist, if the means of production are no longer private but socialist property, if the system of wage labour no longer exists and labour power is no longer a commodity, and if the system of exploitation has long been abolished - can it be considered then that commodity production will lead to capitalism all the same? No, it cannot. Yet ours is precisely such a society, a society where private ownership of the means of production, the system of wage labour, and the system of exploitation have long ceased to exist."
-Stalin, Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR

Seriously, read chapter 2 and 3 och Economic Problems of Socialism in the USSR. It probably won't make you a Marxist-Leninist but at least you'll have some idea what the founder of Marxism-Leninism had to say about commodity production and the law of value in the USSR.
marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/index.htm

This is worse than "Socialism is when the government does stuff".

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Greetings, comrades!

Another View of Stalin: stalinsocietypk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/another-view-of-stalin1.pdf

Stalin and the Struggle for Democratic Reform:
clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

Khrushchev Lied:
archive.org/stream/pdfy-nmIGAXUrq0OJ87zK/Khrushchev Lied_djvu.txt

Results of the 1st and 2nd 5-year Plans:
mltheory.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/the-results-of-the-1st-2nd-soviet-five-year-plans-soviet-industrial-revolution/

Read those. That's a start.

You just added so much to my "prove motherfuckers wrong about Stalin" folder, thank you

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im rly stupid, what does this mean?

balkanalysis.com/romania/2011/12/27/in-romania-opinion-polls-show-nostalgia-for-communism/


pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/


telesurtv.net/english/news/Poll-Most-Russians-Prefer-Return-of-Soviet-Union-and-Socialism-20160420-0051.html


newcoldwar.org/in-levada-center-poll-most-russians-prefer-planned-economy-over-free-market/