How do I stop being a nationalist?

How do I stop being a nationalist?
I can't help but feel good when "my people" do well in sports, or prefer "my people's" music or produce and goods, and I can't help but harbor historical rivalry against "other people".

How the fuck do I become an internationalist? It doesn't happen. I am just not, regardless of trying to be. Its deeper than my lust for sugar or sex.

Where is the killer argument?

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Why do you feel that way?

I don't know, I just do.
Its not a stance I came to after a lot of thinking and reasoning, it is my natural behavior, that I default to whenever I stop thinking about every move.

Think to yourself "What would my views be if I was born somewhere else?"

Dont worry mate I also get patriotic about shit like sports, music and products. Products mainly because I believe my products are the best (because i grew up with them) and the world should not be deprived or our wonders. Music for the same reason. Sports in lesser amounts but still a bit of solidarity in the sports that are historically traditional sports my country performs well in. (Ice skating, rowing, swimming). Dont really give a fuck in other sports.

Well I couldn't have been, because I was created by my parents, and my ancestors. People don't just pop up magically in random locations…

Convince your mom to break up with Jamal

You take that back! My mom is a saint, she'd never date an irishman.

Assume that your parents had moved to a different country, how would your views be different.

Go outside and make friends.
You'll meet plenty of awful compatriots and lots of cool foreigners

Who cares? As long as you recognise yourself as loving your people themselves and not the rulers of your people and support the interests of your people and not that of their rulers your fine. There's nothing wrong with having a preference for the culture you were raised in or even promoting it. As long as you have perfect clarity on whose interests you are pushing and working for, is it the people of this nation or the abstract idea of this nation which serves solely to cover for the interests of the bourgeoisie.
The proletariat has no country while the bourgeoisie has all of them. There is nothing wrong with localism and workers taking control of the land they toil and dwell on.

No more than you were predetermined to be born in a specific country. It's by chance that you were born in a specific country, sometimes one lucks out.

As far as people having a laugh at rooting for their national team or something, it's fucking sports who cares. It's a game. As long as you don't believe it's an actual identity

Does anyone actually give a shit for internationalism outside of pragmatism and logic? I mean, I have a national identity, and a local identity, because it defines who you are. Of course it's good to see people like yourself do well because you can identify with them, but at the same time I can't understand anyone that legitimately believes "my country, right or wrong", just like I would kick the shit out of someone just like me if they had, for example, caused a big fucking tenement blaze.
Just think about where your priorities lie, would you fuck over a black socialist when he comes into conflict with a white landlord just because you can't personally identify with the black guy much other than being a socialist? This is, of course, assuming you're a white American, since everyone that doesn't state their race and nationality when this comes up tends to be :^)

Back to my first point, I mean obviously I am pissed off when sweatshop workers get treated poorly or somebody is bombed or enslaved, but I'm absolutely powerless to do anything about it. I can change things in my country and community even if it's only slightly, and hope people in other countries try to do the same and we can meet in the middle at some point on the world stage. Does anybody other than liberals unironically and without a hint of shame say "I am a citizen of the world"?

become a based civic nationalist

Sports is training for war. Read your Chomsky.

"My country, right or wrong" is only part of the phrase. The whole statement follows up with that if your country is wrong, it's your job to set it right, not abandon it at the first sign of trouble.

Well, no. You're hilariously wrong. Are you retarded? My parents decided to have a kid and that kid was me. They did so in their home country. That's not random, lol.

I didnt say it was random you dumb cunt. I said consider a scenario where your parents decided to move to a different country, then have you. How would you have grown up differently?

There's a non-negligible chance that you or someone in your line wasn't.

canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Globe_and_Mail_Moms_Little_secret_14DEC02.aspx

Thinking in terms of groups is natural to humans. I just try to remind myself that the biggest in-group of all is living beings who live eat, enjoy and suffer and be a worthless hippy all the time.

It defines what's on your passport, sure. Believing that there are inherent values to a spot of land or that arbitrary lines on maps create a natural identity that you must adhere to is batshit insane.

what the fuck even is this. You're spooked as fuck

There are endless possibilities of "what if"…

What if I was born with no limbs, then would I be able to ride a bicycle? Wow my world would be different!

Playing the "what if" game is what little kids do when they are 5 and you are supposed to grow out of it.

A non-market and planned economy solution can only exist worldwide. If there is one capitalist country left, they will have very tall buildings, and their richest will be very rich indeed, and our best will go live there, because they'd know their qualities will be rewarded better in a system that promotes merit over justice.
So you need the whole world to act, and borders get in the way.

Thats how I understand it anyways.

To stop being a nationalist is very hard. When from the day you're born you grow into believing in nationalism it's a struggle to get out of it - it took me many years for my beliefs to gradually evolve away from nationalism. It was probably the hardest thing I've ever done, even harder than quitting alcohol after being a full alcoholic.

I know Stirner is a meme but probably the biggest step for me was reading The Ego and Its Own. I had already been softening my nationalism for quite some time and it didn't entirely end it either but it made me step back and think "Has all of this really done anything to improve my life in any way and will it do anything to improve my community".

Why are nationalists such brainlets? Read theory and uncuck yourself on nationalism before you go to die for porky's oil.

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Read this book and understand the way of the pirate

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Most people don't tend to use this part, though.


I'm not white American, I'm having a jab at the white Americans on this board since they expect everyone to assume that's their race and nationality by default.


Yeah, this is the pragmatism part I was talking about.

If you were a cat how would your worldviews change?

Well for one you'd be a fucking retard because cats aren't smart.

So if I was a 79-IQ Somalian, sure, my views would be different. But i'm not, and wasting my high Autism Level pretending to be an AIDS-infested Somalian seems like a waste.

Mate, by being unironically nationalistic, you claim your country is better than the others. If there is no basis in this other than "I grew up in it" then why do you claim it so?

I think you should state that you are not me (the OP), because your comments get increasingly aggressive and my original question may get ignored because of you.

I think I'd consider myself an internationalist but that's more because the overall apathy/cynicism rather than some bleeding heart retard who considers humanity his in-group/family. Like why the fuck would I go and die in a war for my country?.


While we're at that subject: OP, would you die in a war for your country regardless of it being an offensive or defensive war? Or would you consider weaseling out?

for me i actually used to be more of an internationalist during my first years of college. Then, during my masters i became more of a nationalist, more a communitarian, without losing any communist belief. I, just like you, prefer my local food, have a deep respect for my traditions, history, way of talking, and so on… And i feel that communism is the best way to respect that heritage. Since the central governmental, with their nation-states, try to impose a common culture that erases all cultural differences and ethnicities inside one country.

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Have you ever asked your mom where babies come from? If not, I think it's better late than never.

That isn't nationalism though. You just feel good about culture, sports, products and traditions of the people living in your country. There is nothing wrong with that. The question is: Does the existence of traditions and culture require the apparatus of a nation state? Clearly you are aware that culture and traditions have existed before the the concept of a nation state even came up. Barriers like language and customs automatically conserve certain aspects of regional culture by themselves.

A socialist union would not restrict that.

False dichotomy, that or you're too autistic about things. I'm English and insult the French and Germans for keks, but that's just fucking around on the internet. If you'd actually invade France just because you're English you're a fuckwit.
I also cheer on the German and French people when they get more power over the rich and the state. Crazy thing, I know.
OP you are just proud of your country, which isn't too bad if you're not a massive raging autismo over it.

I've heard "Nationalism and Culture" by Rudolph Rocker makes some good arguments against nationalism but I haven't read it myself

I'd also consider myself an internationalist but if my country was getting invaded I absolutely would fight and die for it. I mean all my friends and family live here.

Fuck dying in some imperialist war for the government though.

I would not risk my life for my country, unless I am forced to do it by the government threatening my freedom, property or family.
Or I guess if the enemy does that, then I'd be forced to fight too.

My experience in the mandatory draft and service was that the army is about living in horrible conditions, supplying mountain villages with food and fuel during winter storms, and getting bullied by people 3 months older than you because they got in first.
I don't have rose tainted glasses when it comes to military and I've talked to enough heroes to know they are just larping to hide fear. Enough of them admitted it too when drunk.

I absolutely never even came CLOSE to claiming that. Please don't use low-effort strawmen.

You are retarded.

That is the definition is nationalism, buddy.

I don't think you're a nationalist m8, I think you just enjoy your local culture which is pretty normal, you also like your local sports team. Sounds like some anti-Deutsch tier propaganda has worked its way into your head.

There's a misconception that nationalism is about thinking you're objectively better, when it's more about solidarity, camaraderie, and identity. Allusions to being the best are a natural side-effect, but not the point.

You're always a 79-IQ Somalian to someone

Realize that nationalism is a spook

Then you don't understand nationalism

First off i'm not the OP and I never claimed to be a nationalist.

Second of all that's the "down-the-list" definition appendix and it's not true in all cases.

It calls nationalism "extreme patriotism", LOL. That's simply hilariously untrue, but maybe it CAN be true in SOME instances, depending on the country and person. But that's more of an example than a definition. Definitions are shite.

Right, it's celebration of the most inane identity. Nationalism is least intelligent idpol.

Then what's the word/ideology of someone who desires a strong and perhaps economically autonomous, and racially homogeneous nation?

You would call that person a nationalist, right?

But there is no entailment of "superiority" in that example belief.

Superiority is a spook and you guys are all falling for it.

This thread: Why do you hate your local music and sports team, leftypol?

That seems like a pretty broad statement there, considering nations can be as large as the United States or as small as a spit of an island out in the Pacific somewhere.

The horse has bolted you dense fuck, stop dressing up your beliefs in a comfy "I like the local cuisine, and I like it when we do well at the olympics" when it's actually "I want to deport millions of citizens who don't fit with me on racial lines"

Wut why is Identitäre Bewegung on Leftypol now

He's absolutely right though. It doesn't matter if you're from the US or Tahiti, being proud of where you're born and that a bunch of strangers you don't even know also live there is fantastically retarded.

You see? You don't have that "something" that drove the people in XIXth and XXth century to voluntary conscript and die to fight against the enemies of their nation, like those batshit insane teenagers who were faking their ages to get conscripted. Taking part in shitstorms on /int/ and getting excited over soccer is really shallow nationalism that would get scorned by the people living in the past century, so if you want to reevaluate your nationalist powerlevel, comparing yourself with the people that lived before you is a good start. Really, all conservative values are dying on our eyes, thak you based capitalism.

There literally is no, nor has there ever been, such a thing.

Loving your immediate family, like mother and father, more than other people doesn't mean you consider them inherently superior beings.

Nationalism is kind of like a love and preference for your extended racial family, and it does not mean you consider it "superior" to other races.

What's wrong with having a collective identity on top of your individual one?

This thread is an attempt at entryism

absolutely? no. relatively? yes.

although I never denoted absoluteness or relativity, you assuming I meant absoluteness and calling me wrong for it is weak intellectual dishonesty.

join the……
NAZBOL
GANG

What's wrong with believing in Santa Claus or other childish fantasies based on superstition and nonsense?


lol, "relatively homogeneous." You're retarded, as expected of a nationalist.

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You're dodging the idea by attacking a semantic which is grey area at best, and you know it. Sad!

It wouldn't work anyways since it's possible only if you're so shit immigrants don't want to come to your country anyways and people here realize that I hope

Sage and hide.

Honestly what you've described is patriotism. There is nothing wrong with that

MODS = FAGS
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Based mods.

bad

theres. nothing. wrong. with. being. a. nationalist.

#UHURU!

Man, how come I wasn't "sexually abused" by older women when I was younger?
Guess I'm just too ugly

Then why do you want a racially homogenous nation? Obviously you believe in the superiority of your own people

sorry, I just got to the part when OP came out as a racist wrecker

It's OK liking stuff coming from your country. But hating other people because of "historical rivalry" is retarded. In the end they are all based on business interests. Germany wanted Elsaß-Lothringen, because there was coal which was needed for their steelworks in the Rhine-Ruhr area.
If the territory was empty, nobody would give a single fuck about it.
Just like Salzburg. Is it Bavarian? Is it Austrian? Who fucking cares, you can buy salt for 19 cents in the super market. 24 cents, if you want Iodine with it. It's not that hot stuff, only rich people could afford like it was back then.

How is this OP worth a public ban? Mods need to calm down.

Yeah, let people have their retarded opinions in peace.

because

I'm sorry user, it's inoperable autism.

Let me browse in peace from reading people's retarded opinions.

I dunno man the whole internet is kinda braindead, seems like it's impossible

Only war is education of war…though forcing your eternal life is education for war.

Thanks…

I believe that every individual has their spooks. It just depends how aware and serious you are about your spooky ideas. Most people aren't and that's a problem. Yes people are tribalistic but a nation-state really isn't necessary since tribalism goes beyond borders sometimes, just look at the pan-African/Black Panthers movement and the White nationalist/European heritage; each claim to be part of a group that supersedes the nation-state. It is important to have social cohesion among workers because Revolution allows for herd mentally to rear its head and allows for the collective to join as one, “liberalism and constitutionalism unavoidably pave the way for democracy, which in turn paves the way for socialism, which in turn paves the way for radicalism and finally for communism” if we look closely at Evola’s theory, nationalism inevitably leads to collectivization since the two concepts are conducive to group mentality and in-thinking. “The plebeian feeling of the Motherland that triumphed with the French Revolution and was developed by nationalistic ideologies as the mysticism of the common folk and the sacred and omnipotent Motherland is nothing less than the revival of a form of feminine totemism;”

For fuck's sake mods, he's literally asking us to despook him and you ban him for being spooked? This was beyond retarded.

No mods, no masters.

I find it odd that the log says he was banned for , not the OP post.

why would that matter?
OP is what he is
I'm tired of this perception on the left that being born is a lottery for an immortal soul, its Christian nonsense an idea from a backwards Abrahamic faith
you are not an individual born kicking and screaming alone into the world
you are the product of a billion years of natural selection, you are stardust made flesh by the birth and death of all that came before you
your nation? your race? your sex?
you were born what you are and you are defined by what you are believing otherwise is a fallacy

That post isn't even mine.

Hey me too!
Dont worry even a website like "the truth about deception" puts the numbers waaaaaaaay lower than this.

products of a mongrelized people
they create and cling to identities that arent theirs because their original identities have been forgotten or taken from them

There is nothing wrong with socialist patriotism, upholding one's culture (and I mean actual culture: folk music, dress, dance, non-repressive traditions), to be a true internationalist you just have to realise that others want exactly the same as you. They want to live in a world just like you: where your nation is strong and the people safe. Internationalism is not globalism, it is not the selling out of your people to create some global entity, no, it is quite the opposite, It is uniting the people of the world behind the cause of the people's rights. Internationalism is about cooperation, not surrendering power.

That is why so many leftists are opposed to the EU: because it isn't internationalist, it is globalist. An internationalist europe would be democratic, focus on maintaining the rights of workers and their welfare: not allowing for the free movement of capitalism.

So yeah, the best way to remember things is a quote by a bloke who I can't remember: "Patriotism is the love of one's country and people, Nationalism is the hate of others'." Love your people, work to build them a socialist society where they can prosper and live to their fullest: and respect & help others when they try to do the same for theirs.

except they dont
differing cultures and religions have different endgoals
some have the same goals and want the same as yourself, others want a different future for you than you want for yourself
so often is internationalism preached by a central authority who kindly offers their 'benevolent oversight' in their process in exchange for your submission to their machine

if that was true it fails to explain the international cooperation between different nationalist organisations around the world

Who determines what is "actual culture" and what isn't?

Aren't arbitrary borders based on a history of violence very much opposed to internationalism?
Isn't the free movement of laborers, so they can go where they are most needed, and where the cooperation will see most use of them, the pinnacle of workers rights?
It would lead to some places being left empty and poor, but will bring prosperity to others, and ultimately in a "planned economy" type of world you will have such optimization, and you will see some mountain villages that only existed for historical reasons go extinct, as people move into the cities or abroad.


They have the same goals - the prosperity of their tribe. They just have different ways to get there, and would go to different lengths to achieve it.
When there is only so much wealth to go around, your tribe being wealthier means other tribes getting poorer.

I mean the end goals of proletarian liberation, that is what any true socialist wants.

No, that is globalism. Internationalism is the Paris accord: nations working together in an equal footing for a common goal.

Actually often because they are ideologically aligned in an internationalist manner: there''s a reason the PLO get on with the PKK but not the KDP. Besides, one can see in Rojava the abandonment of national liberation for proletarian liberation: the latter being the true cause of man kind.

That already happened. You can start a business without needing a tremendous amount of money.
When Marx wrote his manga, you basically needed to own a factory to start a business, since craftsmen and small workshops were dying worldwide.
Nowadays, you can start a business from your apartment, with just your laptop. You can learn web development for free in about three months, and start selling your work.
No longer is having had a grandfather who exploited africans a requirement for starting a company. In the future this period will probably be called the age of the startups, since everyone and their uncle is trying to get an independent company going, its that easy.

I mean in the sense of cultural tradition, not pop culture: the culture of the people not bourgeois hegemony.

And free movement of capitalism is not free movement. Atm free movement works to continue capitalism and depress wages to make production cheaper: rather than any humanitarian reasons. For free movement to work in the interest of the people: it needs to be decoupled from capitalism and work against it, for not for it.

If you think that's what proletarian liberation means, holy fucking shit you need to read a book.

I guess but they have different approaches some direct and others more direct than others
islam can be viewed as a memetic weapon to achieve arabic supremacist ideals


I dont see the Paris accord as anything but laying some nice sounding groundwork in order to build a de-centralised federation and thats the first step to a despotic globalist nightmare
I dont see Rojava being unique its just mutual co-operation in desperate situation once conditions improve enough for people to get jealous over the allocation of resources they'll be at each others throats soon enough

These things don't make one a nationalist, except for the last one. Mixing two lies with 1 truth, dank dishonesty right there.

If these things don't make you a nationalist, why was I banned for "being a nationalist"?

You were banned for

This isn't hard

Thats not my post. None of the "you were banned for this" attempts points to my posts.
Someone else was being an ass, and I got banned.

The log says you were banned for , strangely enough. This is weird. Something to discuss on the mod feedback sticky.

i guess internationalism to me is fraternity among nations. that is, you don't step on other people and they don't step on you. everyone helps everyone and you try to build each other up.

i think 'internationalism' has been slandered by the right to mean you must hate your country, and 'your people' and everything else. you can be proud of who you are and where you come from and still be an internationalist. i've never found the two stances contradictory whatsoever.

in fact, i would wager i have far less contradictions than the nationalists who go on and on about how much they love 'their people' and are disparaging the vast majority of the people in their country in another with their lamenting of supposed 'degenerates.'

too often the nationalists have this stupid aura that they're speaking for some 'silent majority' in their country. they always appeal to this as a way to sound authoritative and condescending when talking to those they disagree with. its like smug liberals but 100x worse, really.