The value of every commodity is determined by the quantity of socially necessary labour time spent on its production

Imposing this principle. if the quality of the commodity itself is shit, what happens. I.E what if someone made a chair but it turned out to be completely dogshit and breaks easily. Are they still paid according to their time or labour, or is this another principle or effect that makes an exception here?

Other urls found in this thread:

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch10.htm
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto.

socially necessary labor time refers to the societal average across society. Just because you suck at making chairs doesn't mean everyone else does.

Why would a worker in a factory that makes chairs have their pay docked because of a faulty product? Have you ever heard of such a thing happening before?

If someone enlightened me on the credibility of it's principles I would then decide the books are worth my time and read them.


But what if everyone was, dare I say it, lazy. You know, decided to exploit the system. Still spending the time, but not giving enough care to make proper chairs.

What if they made a good chair for themselves, then just exploited the system the rest of the time?

Surely it would have a social bad social reaction from everyone else who isn't a chair builder, but it's not like they can specifically target and cut off the chair-builders money, (not from what I've read) so what's to encourage / discourage the chair builders from exploiting this system?

The entirety of society are not just going to be fucking lazy all of the sudden. That's a big what if that is not going to occur. It is precisely that it won't happen is the validation for its reasoning.

Then they're fired.

Then they wouldn't be making chairs fast enough and their boss would fire them. Have you never had a job in your life?

Are we talking about Capitalism or Communism right now. Because LTV describes the conditions of Capitalism, in a Communist society there's not production for value at all, it's production for use, which means no mass production and labor time is freed from the commodity form. Basically chair makers can work at their own pace, there is no need to mass produce tons of cheap shitty chair anymore.

Why is it in the chair builders interest to make shitty chairs? The reason chairs are cheap and shitty now is because they're mass produced. What do these chair makers get out of making faulty chairs?

This is why the Soviet Union didn't work. Shit products. Trust me, I'm Polish.

Care to elaborate on this?

>what if someone
SNLT is fundamentally a macro concept.

Not real Socialism

I see, that makes sense. What books would you suggest reading

wew lad.

Not him, but I post this same image everywhere hoping that somebody follows it as well, remembering that reading is surprisingly pleasant. I think the texts related to political economy are the most relevant, especially the introductories so you get a bit of knowledge before taking Capital, which is supposed to be very tough to take all in.

Saved.
That's quite useful, thanks

Marx's Wage Labor and Capital and Critique of the Gotha Program are fantastic short introductions to his economics as well as Marxist theory in general.

Although if you've never read Marx period I'd say Engels' Principles of Communism, and of course the Communist manifesto itself, are a better place to start. Followed by Wage Labor and Capital, and perhaps Part 1 of the German Ideology if you really want to understand Historical Materialism and Ideology. Critique of the Gotha Program is probably the single most prescriptive work he's ever written though. Most of Marx's writings are critiques of Capitalism, but the CoGP is the closest he comes to just describing exactly what he thinks Communism is and what it would look like and what it would take to get there from Capitalism.

COMMUNISM BTFO

???

Isn't that capitalism being btfo?

Good. Intellectual property is shit and gay.

Well that's a new one

fuck off reddit, we know you haven't read kapital

OP, here are my recommendations

CAPITALISM BTFO

COMMUNISM WINS AGAIN

SNLT applies to homogenous products
And capitalism itself doesn't allow for this kind of variation. Due to the prices of other products and the income of the workers, there is a certain price people are willing and able to pay for a chair. Any company that produces cheap pieces of shit below this value will not sell much because people would rather spend a bit more for a better one. Any company that produces super expensive and good chairs also wont sell shit, because people cant afford it. Companies who produce below the avarage quality of the commodity will sell less and thus be outcompeted.
In the end all production of any commodity all roughly groups around a few price-quality points. You got some cheap ass chairs for the poor, some normal chairs for the non-poor and expensive bullshit for the rich.

Anyone who spends the same amount of time on a task as another, but produces is shit product, will get less monetary value for his product, and thus be forces to either improve or fuck off. SNLT is a macro concept, and artisinal production is neglectable in an industrial production system, which is what capitalism is and what SNLT describes.

In socialism, there will be other methods than changing the pay of a person. Society as a whole will stop the production of shit commodities if better ones exist. The goal in socialism is creating the most use value for the least amount of labour time, so a factory that makes shit chairs for the same value in labour time than another factory will get shut down.

Damn you dumb as hell

Nice arguments.

You don't understand what SNLT means, read Marx.

By and at large, products are made on standard templates with machines. It's hard for a worker to fuck up a product when all they need to do is follow standard procedure.

I think everyone needs to realize that the days of cottage industry where you might have to worry about the effect on quality a single worker might have are long gone. Chairs are produced in factories. What goes into the quality of these chairs goes far above what minuscule power the average worker has to add or detract.

You seem to have confused the marxist definition of commodities with the neo-classical definition.

It is you who is mistaken. The point of is that you can't really speak of SNLT for some unique piece that is made by a unique artisan, with the rest of the world having no clue how that wizard makes the damn thing. You need more than some sporadic trade of stuff usually produced by small tribes for their own consumption that may happen when lucky weather yields them more than they need for themselves. SNLT is a concept for exchange of things produced at a mass scale and with repetition, so there is a systematic way of testing and asserting what's necessary to continuously reproduce multiple units of the product. (This testing and asserting is done by the system, the entire process of what's needed for producing a particular thing isn't necessarily something that any human inside the system is actually fully aware of.)

Adding this to my post
The SOCIALLY part in SNLT, Socially Necessary Labor Time, already suggests that there is something macro about this concept and that it doesn't work for unique art pieces. Here is a quote by Marx supporting the position that there needs to be some regularity, repetition, homogeneity in the production of a thing for SNLT to establish itself as a regulating force:

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch10.htm

Marx's theory of value only applies to reproducible goods in a commodity economy anyway. I don't understand why people are trying to apply it to works of artistry.

you're misinterpreting the LTV
It isn't a normative proposal for how society should be run but an explanation of what determines the value of a regularly re-produced commodity under capitalism.

Feels like I'm already a part comrades

Just look at the amount of NEETs that stay at home and play videogames and tell me that won't happen

Video games are bourgeois propaganda and will be banned following the revolution. All who refuse to participate in society will be reeducated so they can have a new chance at integrating into society.

I know it's a low effort b8, but Tetris is literally a tankie invention.

Emulation and open-source software are communist as fuck. Once we abolish intellectual property as part of capitalism ww,e'll be able to freely enjoy all the mountains of software that were developed for the profit motive, without the madness of chasing new things. There's already enough games to keep anyone sane occupied for decades, but hobbyist programmers can always make new things with radical communist gameplay.

trips for truth