How to debate Right-Wingers

Not necessarily the alt-right, but I find myself having a hard time debating with right-wingers. What are the best ways to counter their arguments for stuff like free trade and a market economy?

Other urls found in this thread:

blogs.ams.org/inclusionexclusion/2017/05/11/get-out-the-way/
metamoderna.org/4-things-that-make-the-alt-right-postmodern?lang=en
jacobinmag.com/2017/03/jason-reza-jorjani-stony-brook-alt-right-arktos-continental-philosophy-modernity-enlightenment/
myredditnudes.com/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Reading.

Ah, so what you're saying is that you do not understand your own ideology well enough to explain it to others.

i think what he's asking for are rhetorical strategies to use when debating his opponents

but don't let that stop you from acting like a red neck white bread chickenshit motherfucker

It's probably easier and faster to poke the holes in their ideology by asking them questions about it.

Just call them spooked.

This really. The capitalists will sell you the rape you use to hang them.

You may have to read up on their own ideologies yourself, or simply know well enough the basic arguments they make to counter them, which right wingers usually don't develop at length, unless you're debating with outright rhetoricians.

Max Stirner pretty completely and utterly destroyed any and all forms of right wing thought.

Depends why they hold their beliefs. The Christian-right is the most spooked demographic I've ever encountered in my life.

Stirner will do one of two things to a right-winger, possibly both:

something something property is theft something something monopolies

BASH THE FASH
BASH THE FASH
BASH THE FASH

DO NOT SPEAK TO EVIL

BASH THE FASH
BASH THE FASH
BASH THE FASH

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See

Ask them questions. Their "theory" is so trashy that even a 2 year old can destroy it.

He's not asking you to do his homework for him, you layabout. He's asking you to show him how to fucking do it.

If you all devolve into a bunch of morons screeching "EDUCATE YOURSELF" at anyone who asks earnest questions, you deserve to languish in whatever hell capitalism cooks up for you.

Why? They don't have political positions outside of shit they parrot from other peoples thoughts, if you engage them in an actual political discussion, youll see they dont know what they believe and that what they believe has no basis in fact or reality, it will boil down to how they feel about things. Even better, you can get them to agree with very left wing political positions if you just phrase differently and when called out on this, the amount of cognitive dissonance it creates usually lead them to threaten you physically.

You cant debate, you can only edge them towards the positions you already have, but slowly so they don't realize they're completely full of shit all at once.

If you can argue his points without namedropping him and without using his terminology. Never, ever do either of those.

This also works on them.
_____
Also, don't reveal that you're a leftist if you're a burger. Remember, their minds are postmodern and operate on idpol. They think everyone else is like this. Avoid labels if at all possible - they have preconceived notions about everything.

Do you guys really think highschool dropout shitskins calling for 15 dollar an hour and screaming white muh privilege actually know anything? Do you really think all the 3rd world shithead who probably for the most part can't even read and write but are communist really know shit? This is why I don't like ideologies because it's less about self and self-knowledge, and just becomes the party line. Hence why all these ideologies have like 90% retards in them.

You are just generalizing them to dehumanize them. Isn't leftypol supposed to be above this?

I consider myself an informed, intelligent right winger. Basically, I believe our current day society fears and hates the strong while worshipping the Weak and placing the Victim on a pedestal. I choose Nietzcheanism an affirmation, not negation of life of youth, strength, purity and the will to go beyond, not the will to debase oneself as to not offend the Weak. take for example this article:

blogs.ams.org/inclusionexclusion/2017/05/11/get-out-the-way/

It gets to the core of what, imo, constitutes the leftist mentality. Victimhood is the only truth. Our society is a society dedicated to worshipping the victim. Everything, science, morality, art, tradition, is seen as an eurocentric social construct created by the evil oppressors to keep the poor victims down. But what if I choose power, not pity? what if i want to go beyond, instead of kneeling before my shrieking pathetic inferiors?

Talk about the infant industry argument, the failure of structural adjustment programmes (see Sitglitz), the American System and how no successful economy in history pursued free trade. It was all Protectionism.

Talk about the enormous market failures we get: market power (arising from collusion, information asymmetries economies of scale etc.), public goods, externalities, businesses cycles, unemployment, lack of equity for normal people etc.

Get them to capitulate on what they believe by debunking it. Then get them to accept that the only remedy is government intervention. Now they're no longer right-wing.

Neo-Nazis have the biggest victim complex of all.

Are you fucking stupid.

No. Right-wingers are. That's the point. They equate government with leftism.

if either of those were true you wouldn't be a right winger

WHAT THE FUCK DID JUST FUCKING SAY ABOUT GENERALIZATIONS? WHAT THE FUCK DID HE JUST FUCKING SAY ABOUT GENERALIZATIONS?

STOP IT, RETARD.

I see progressivism and marxism, not as conspiracies, but as religions, fully believed in by their adherents. I take a stand against their hegemony. Judaism is at once a religion and a group evolutionary strategy. Jews display a marked biological tendency to serve jewish interests, though not in a conscious or conspiratorial way, at least not most of the time. I don't hate the Jew, just like I don't hate the serpent or the jackal. I am aware of its nature, i know how dangerous it can be.

Cry harder faggot.

Sick ideology to be honest.

I would say "orcs vs humans!", but now that's apparently actually a thing. I remember when that was what Holla Forums used to make fun of dumb Nazis like you - now you unironically use it. Do you realize how much of a self-parody you are?
Have you considered that people who are of Jewish descent do their best to stop Nazis because you want to kill them because they try to stop you from killing them, and so on and so on?

Why be a nazi instead of a regular old capitalist?

You're literally arguing an anime-tier "the strong should fear the weak" philosophy. You can be strong and rule the weak by being a rich bastard and elevating your family far past where the masses could possibly reach you.

For instance Soros is way way stronger than you because of his massive capital and influence.

I know who you are.

I am dead fucking serious, if you lot can't stop doing shit like saying "hurr durr right-wingers equate government with leftism" when there are clearly right-wingers who do NO SUCH THING you will look like the biggest bunch of fucking retards on the internet. And with Holla Forums around that's quite the achievement.

A religion is a system based around unquestionable assumptions. You know, things like "Whites are the master race". There are plenty of people who question Marx on the left (who aren't simply liberals or neoliberals). There are LOTS of people on the left who question the modern manifestation of Progressivism in the West. I have yet to see a single Nazi question the assumption that the whites were the master race.


This is an assertion that demands proof. What evidence do you have that progressivism and Marxism are hegemonic?


Kill yourself. You are dead fucking weight to the left.

think of it in an existential way. I choose to be strong. I reject the paradigm of victimhood. I choose survival over extinction


a leftist would tell the Lion to starve to death because he can't bear to see the gazelles suffer. But that's just an inversion of the natural order. that's slave morality. Many jews/leftists have explicitly said they want white people to go extinct. Why should i let the morals of my enemy override my survival instinct? specially when the morals of my enemy are not more or less authentic than mine. Leftist/Christian slave morality is just an expression of Jewish evolutionary interests.

???
IDK who that is.
I got the (IMO accurate) idea from this article: metamoderna.org/4-things-that-make-the-alt-right-postmodern?lang=en

Strong people don't need to remind themselves or others constantly how strong they are.


And yet your ilk cling to the notion of the white race being the victims of Jewish slander, predation and parasitism. You don't reject victimhood, you reject everyone else's victimhood but your own. You engage in ridiculous amounts of what Orwell would call "doublethink". You belittle the Jews as feeble, cowardly Untermenschen hard-wired for parasitism, and practically in the SAME BREATH you lament how they have turned your master-race of "lions" into an increasingly endangered species.

You claim that you reject victim mentality but do you not think your race is victim to some sort of "genocide". Seems like victimhood to me. The belief that white people need an ethnostate because of "anuddah shoah" is literally victimhood mentality.

I am motivated by a biological instinct, the instinct for survival. Marxism and Christianity are nothing but life denying sophistry. Scratch the surface and they will be exposed as the mere expression of alien biological interests

I read a similar article from Jacobin a while ago, but it really is a disgusting comparison.

I should add something I've saying for a while. As communists, it is our duty to read almost everything we can get our hands on: history, politics, philosophy mainly, but also varied areas like anthropology, psychology, and so on.

I find simply debating without getting emotional is one way to really get them to think. For example, you get thrown an obviously bullshit line about a very basic theoretical point like that lie about equal payment for every job, historical lies, the role of the state in a socialism, and so on.

Again, you must do this calmly, try not to get pissed. This causes them to move their neurons like the emoji in the picture attached, or get so pissed off they start doing personal attacks (on the internet this almost always is something about you being a leech/wage slave/champagne socialist, whatever is convenient, and you can in turn use examples like Engels or workers like Dietzgen being communists as well, even if your class is unrelated to your political ideology). So they either get very butthurt, which is also a precursor to opening to different political thought, or you get people interested debating, which is where you should be most prepared.

WEAPONIZED AUTISM.

I should correct this. Your class IS related to your political ideology, but its correctness is not defined by the class you belong to.

Now you're just bloviating. I'm not impressed.

Literally everyone who isn't suicidal is motivated by survival. Saying that over and over means nothing. It was also real sly of you to say that you reject victimhood mentality, and then when people brought up how you actually don't you just ignored it. Almost slipped by me. I also don't know how Marxism is "expression of alien biological interests".

He thinks humans have an instinct for the "survival" of their "race," is what he's getting at. Hed say that the instincts regarding family and 'tribe' are not determined by immediate blood relatives+the people you grew up with, but by a telephatic racial sense memory by which you just know in your bones how much dna someone shares with you and by that consider them to be more or less your kin.

He's just implying that his shitty memes are actually coded into human nature.

unlike your memes, that are ACTUALLY coded into economic and social nature. Marxism is an unfalsifiable, ideologically biased jewish 'theory'. Biology, genetics, sociobiology, are actual sciences, actual falsifiable sciences, grounded on empirical evidence.

Man you must just have white people on your mind. Do you really think Jews don't have those instincts? Especially during the 1940s? What about the American Indians?

Your hatred for white has blinded you to human nature. The racial instinct is real.

Can you explain the biological mechanism responsible for
I would love to hear more, having a BSc in biology and all.

Kinda hard to miss the big nose

Why are you avoiding me bringing up the jews though? You are such a full of shit liar if you don't think have clear tribal instincts.

Hmm, I don't remember hearing that in biology. What I do remember is that inbreeding can cause severe diseases and so mating with people resembling you too much is evolutionarily disadvantageous so most species don't do it.

btw Stephen J Gould is an ideologically biased hack

Also I do remember sexual organisms developing because cloning severely reduces genetic variability. Reducing genetic variability means a single virus can wipe out your entire species. It's advantageous to have a more diverse gene pool.

So, mixing black bears with polar bears will produce a superior bear to survive in arctic conditions?

FUCKING THIS

That depends on the offspring really.

that could describe literally any ideology. The leftist only substitutes 'orcs' for 'capitalists', 'white men', 'cis scum' and thinks xirself clever for it. In the end, the same universal primal process is at work, friend vs. enemy, ingroup vs. outgroup.

No, any worthwhile leftist blames the system of capitalism as the problem. The capitalists are merely a byproduct of it.

just like black criminality or jewish mendacity are merely byproducts of the race's genetics

To be more precise they blame thr material conditions causing capitalism. Humans don't have free will and so placing blame on individuals is ridiculous.

Hey if you can prove causation using genetics then go for it. As far as I know all you have are correlations with statistics without anything proving causation. And if you CAN prove causation with genetics that's still a result of material conditions, good job becoming a leftist I knew you could do it.

jacobinmag.com/2017/03/jason-reza-jorjani-stony-brook-alt-right-arktos-continental-philosophy-modernity-enlightenment/
This one? I saw it too. I dislike it because it advocates a return to the Enlightenment instead of engaging postmodernists to move beyond. The characterization of the alt right as broadly postmodern is, however, not far off the mark. You can't have the alt right without NRx, you can't have NRx without Nick Land, and you can't have Nick Land without DeLeuze. Does that automatically discredit DeLeuze and force a return to Hume along that line of philosophical development? Not automatically - at most, it's a warrant to reexamine the inner parts of his ideas and find the transition into Land, along with the mechanisms behind it.

Those are liberals. Try lurking and reading the FAQ. Forget the lies you've been told about Holla Forums. This is the place on the Internet where the class-focused, anti-identitarian leftists congregate because no one else likes us.

How do you explain Appalachia. One of the whitest and poorest part of the country, but also has low crime. Compare it to just about anywhere with a bunch of shitskins

Compare your beloved niggers and spics to jews. Did jews not have a tough time for several thousands of year? Did jews not get genocided and force jews to flee or die? Yet, here we are where jews makes more money and live more successful lives (average) than anyone else. Niggers and spics are still at the bottom.They would not be where they are if they all had 150iqs and a strong a desire to delay satisfaction. You're a fucking liar if you suggest otherwise.

Man you were so close. Now you're back to muh gut feeling. What happened to the science you claimed was on your side?

tbh I'm too sleepy for that shit right now. Fuck it I'm outta here

I live in Appalachia. The crime isn't any lower, there's just no police to arrest anyone a lot of the time.

Hell, almost anyone in town could potentially be your personal drug dealer if you ask what they have.

You do realize those are two different species, right?

Even if they can breed the viability of their offspring in the arctic is still unknown. For all we know the black bear may carry some traits that let the hybrid be more successful in the arctic than the parent.

that's how i got rid of the spook of human decency and fairness

What field?
You have to agree, nazis pretending to be biologists is the fucking best. I sometimes intentionally bait them into claiming to have a degree in the science just to humiliate them. It's like a kindergartener pretending to be a tax inspector.

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wut? That's like arguing that evangelicalism isn't a religion because there are plenty of Christian denominations that are skeptical of Biblical literalism.

Depends on what right winger.

If ancap it is best to go down the route of how ancapism inoxerably going to lead to neofeudalism. The just get their justification from "Natural right rather than god"

If generic right winger you should point out a couple of things. Mainly how property rights are essentially arbitrary, and the reality of property does not match of with the justifications for property such as "mixing my labour". And there is basically no philosophically sound justification for inheritance rights I've heard of.

As far as "each man has thee right to thee sweat of his own brow and the fruits of their labour" you should talk about extraction of surplus value, and how owning the means of production is merely based on previous exploitation on a smaller scale, so it does not justify surplus value extraction.

Other than that you should point out how socialists are for "muh freedom" such as the right to keep and bear arms and the right to have a say in ones own community and over ones own productive labour.

Hard to debate somebody when your wrong…

Try being reasonable and civil and don't go into debates where you know you haven't read enough about, to avoid stupid strawman gottchas. Other than that, they'll either have accept the debate, and present their ideas, or they'll stop because they assume the left is just about feeling and they censor/use violence againdt everyone they disagree with. Also, learn about their favourite fallacies, their misuses, just to not let them get away with using insults (which should generally be avoided) as ad hominems, and so on. Finally, don't start discussions about sematics, what socialism/communism/fascism/capitalism/… "actually is". Explain thst these words have different meaning and different emphasises in different tradition, and that it makes on sense to argue which is more valid.

In general, don't assume good faith, but don't act like a child either. Going my this has worked for me.

Go back to reddit.

Scream in their face that they are sexist racist misogynisms then run away

You punch them, you fucking nerds.

Agreed. The fash are a bunch of shutin literal faggots. Everyone of them I've seen on livestream looks like he has worked out a day in his life and has that upper class paleness tht just needs to get beaten.

We on the other hand are hard and tough as steel. We get stronger every day working fields and working fields while they sit in their mom's basement beating off 6 times a day to anime. Fucking faggots.

BASH THE FASH

If you want to school right wingers on economics, actually study a lot of economics. Marx is a must, and Steve Keen is the master of BTFO'ing right wing economic myths. David Graebers "Debt" is good too if you want to counter right wing myths with the hard reality of how debt, credit, coinage and trade actually begun

I have been debating with an AynCapshit that claims to have read all the major economic theorists including Marx. He also takes the NAP like it is a religion but is okay with shooting people for being on property. I explained how exploitation works and how you have no real choice but he still calls it voluntary. I just gave up on it.

Punch a Nazi and he'll be gone for a day. Shoot a Nazi and he'll be gone forever.

If you could be more explicit, it would help. I need some explicit contradictions to just make them understand something is not right.

Then you alienate the mass of unpoliticized people and they will accept absolutely anything from corrupt politicians as long as it help fighting you.

Good job, you gave Porky an even more Orwelian state.

That's some fine political analysis user gg

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Fact: despite his praise of 'schizophrenia' Deleuze was terrified of the mentally ill IRL and wouldn't come near Guattari's experimental asylum

Let the boots do the talking.

I'd also appreciate some tips on combating aut-right. While they're easy to troll, they're hard to despook. The moment you try to bring up evidence or present any argument, they go full globalist jew cuck, or present just blatantly false data.

Debates are rhetorical games. If you want to change minds explain leftism and explain whats wrong with the right's theories.

Development of corresponding FAQ against nation/race and liberal idpol is in our collective interest

It has nothing to do with free will and everything to do with availability of tools. Humans interact with the world through the tools that were creatively designed by them. Capitalism is a faulty system and useless tool therefore it needs to be replaced.

That doesn't explain why leftists don't blame individuals.

Whenever you even try to explain leftistm, they go for
It's useless

One of Deleuze's biggest influences is Hume, oh fugg looks like the Enlightenment is also post-modern too now.

source?

But we complain all the time about individualy performed classcuckery, false consciousness and descent into ideologies.

A thousand times this!
Are you going to shout down every exploited, underprivileged, uneducated proletariat who comes to you asking how socialism could better their lives? No. You need to be able to explain things to people in simple terms, without just linking to long-winded texts written by philosophers who died decades ago.

tell them to read bordiga

Source?

Debates are fucking stupid in general.

A debate is a waste of time if you are trying to convince your opponent. If anything, they are only useful if you have an audience listening to the debate. Those are the people you are more likely to influence.

Usually I tend to emphasize that money and property are not the only things that matter in life, and that valuing them too much at the cost of others is a bad thing. Most of the time, people will agree, but then they will call it utopian thinking. There are exceptions, like this one edgy libertarian who went on about "why should I care about others?", and this (dumb) military guy who just kept repeating "you can't aim for utopia because they always collapse".

You will win in an argument if it is decreed by fate

Well said. Though I'd also add to that Keynesian Economics in general. If you're going to convince someone, you unfortunately need to argue on their own terms; Marxism and the Labor Theory of Vanue is completely foreign to most people (Burgers especially), but Keynes essentially defined the modern conception of macroeconomics, and his justification for Monetary and Fiscal Policy provides fine ammunition for when Lolberts pull their "==GOVERNMENT GET OUT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE==" shtick.

You cannot debate Reality user, I'm sorry you had to find out the hard way.

don't