Communism

What's wrong? The janitor's work is as important as the doctor. If the Hospital is filthy the doctor can't do his job.

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neck yourself

Read a book you mongoloid fuck

Please provide evidence, your insults can only convince me so far

Read a book for once in your life.
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
Go to Marxist Archive, download a PDF version of a book and read.

my evidence is every single piece of anarchist and communist theory of the past 200 years which directly contradicts your bullshit.
saged because you're an illiterate retard

Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society.

You could just read the Wikipedia article on it to get such information.

Socialism and Communism isn’t just when the government does stuff. Also capitalism is the main reason for the deindustrilizing of the US. Also you don’t live in Communism anymore. So you can’t blame it on taking 90% of your salary.

humpf…sigh…communism is the goal, the last stage. When there's no currency, no government, industry is fully automated.
USSR was nowhere near that.

sometimes humans seems like a lost cause tbh lads

Read a book. The evidence is the theory in the books.

Or read the screenshot I took.

What your describing as communism is social democracy.

no its anarcho-fascism you dip

In Communism you don't earn a wage, you just produce according to a democratic plan in a spontaneously ordered society.

It's a little embarrasing to be a Ukrainian and not know that Anarchism is a communist political branch.

What about every single practical application of communism of the past 200 years?

If you have no disposable income and have nothing to gain from the tremendous amount of work and time it takes to become, say, a heart surgeon if you're living in the same conditions as a janitor.

yeah basically, what did you expect from leftists, reason?

smh fam

Why become a doctor if you didn't find joy in it? That is the driving force.
Do the job you want.

in no self proclaimed socialist society ever did they pay janitors the same as heart surgeons. USSR glorified especially productive and talented workers. google Stakhanovite.
trying to achieve communism isn't the same thing as actually achieving communism.

m8 don't try to pretend you know anything about the history of communist movements right now so i don't get second hand embarrassed when you get bombarded by info on communist movements you were, surprisingly enough, never taught about in school or Holla Forums infographs.

If I'm not mistaken in The Conquest of Bread there is something about that.
I'm a little rusty on my anarchist literature.

Thank for putting more effort than I did.

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this is why the holdormor happened

Or better yet > What did you expect from ancaps, polite discussion without adhoms?

So we're all supposed to own the means of production, that requires people with certain skills. If there is no incentive to learn the required skills to run a society then no one will.
Why would someone work to become an engineer or doctor if there is no incentive to work harder than they need to? i.e. financial benefits, food, clothes, status etc. In order to get these skilled workers you have to offer benefits which will ultimately create a class of people: those who worked to learn skills and reap rewards, and those who have not.

There is plenty of incentive for the individual to require skills for maintaining society, even though the products of society are socially owned.
This is how things functioned through the majority of the paleolithic, and even how it functioned in the Sumerian ummah and the guild based medieval guild communes and villages, to the New England societies of early Anglo America based mostly on civic virtues and dueties.

See, having a functioning society that is able to function cohesively and implement the kinds of virtues that you want upon the world, is a good in of itself, and it was the natural order of humanity until society became commodity- and service based, once the city and municipality was but a service that one was to buy into rather than a real political entity that one could enact one's political will through.

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Like everyone else you're just flapping, you're talking but not saying anything, you haven't given any rebuttals.
Such as? Do tell? Names, dates?

The numbers don't lie, and the spell 'disaster' for you

Post-scarcity and enjoyment of ones labor. Labor is enjoyable if you do something you like.

And don't get me wrong, post-scarcity is literally impossible. But without the extreme wastefulness from a capitalist mode of production all people will have the ability to gain the same amount of resources. Plus with more automation less time is needed for labor, so more time learning and for scientific, technological and philosophical advancements.

Without the wastefulness, society will become nigh self-sufficient.

Examples is the trashing of electrical devices for replacements that do the same exact thing. The higher acre per years use in the U.S. compared to Europe or the rest of the world, due to an unhealthy increase of meat consummation. Many others.

Fair point as well.

Try Nestor Makhno, Free Territory of Ukraine.

See, this is why it's embarassing that you don't know about him.

One of the most successful communist movement of the 20th century happened in Ukraine

Then why would YOU personally put in the effort to feed everyone else? What's the incentive? Unless you want everyone to do nothing but work to make their own food like our ancestors 100,000 years ago

You're talking like everyone holds the exact same morals and principles as you.

I actually do, I work at a farm.

FOR MONEY

What did you expect to happen, user?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood the question. Please ignore my previous post.

To live in the capitalist mode of production, money is required.

Communism doesn't mean gibmedats. Lenin said 'those who do not work, nor shall they eat.' Once we achieve full or near automation that may change as the need for work decreases and working days become shorter.
There are plentiful motivations to educate yourself and go into other professions, a vast majority of people, surprisingly enough, don't want to be janitors and many want to be doctors. You will find that actually more people are kept out of jobs they want than seek out jobs they don't want due to higher wages.
Moreover socialism/communism means people owning the product of their labour meaning that your standard of living and wealth is directly tied to how much work you do. Hard work would absolutely mean you do better and have more because you produce for yourself, not your employer. Finally jobs and professions are generated by necessity for those roles to be fulfilled, as long as a profession is necessary people will be there to fill it.

The syndicalists of the Spanish civil war 1936-1939, the Makhnovists of the Ukrainian Free Territory 1918-1921, the Paris Commune 1871, Hungarian Soviet Republic 1919 and plenty more. The failure of these and other communist risings and societies has been in all cases extermination by an external force and not at the failure of such methods of workplace and social organisation.

Plus trade is not inherently capitalist, so you can trade that food for trackers or other equipment. Money is the problem, for it can be accumulated.

The same reason the Greek wealthy citizens gave up huge fortunes to give stipends to the Ekklesias to have a functioning democracy, the same reason the Medieval communes of most of Central Europe decided that the communes has ultimate authority over all property and that the people themselves could rule over the economy, the same reason that this was the ruling order of humanity up until the rise of the Nation-State about 400 years ago:

It allows me to be a member of a City-state, democratic and sovereign in it's nature, empowering me as a Citizen, a political actor, and to shape the world to my own will.

never though of that, really activated my almonds

So you have 0 disposable income to spend on, say, a computer and an internet connection and all your other luxuries after your needs are met?
Seems you're doing more than just surviving in this society.

Great idea! Who's going to pay for all this automation?

And wouldn't I have more if my surplus value was not taken unjustly by a bourgie?
Labor deserves all it creates. Workers should own what they labor on or in.

We're actually going to do this revolutionary new thing humans are able to do called 'labour'. Its when we apply ourselves to increase the value and utility of capital. In simple terms we can build machines and have been building them for a long time now and making them better and better which has made us more efficient and productive.

Currency isn't fuel. Its just a method of exchange. Actual work, labour is what creates all the world's wealth user.

But there is no incentive, that is why your system will always fail. You neglect human nature; self interest.

So it isn't within ourself interest to continue society to not have, please forgive me, anarchy?

The incentive is making human labor less of a necessity

The incentive is there, living and working for a better life. It is precisely in the interest of workers to own their labour and improve their and their families standard of living. Self-interest is what socialism is built on, the interest of the worker to better his lot by taking control of his life and his labour.

Just look at us. We're weak bald monkies. We'd be nothing if we didn't have our ability to cooperate and socialize. Thus egoism/self-interest is very much against the natural form of the human being.

Automation = Less time required to labor.
Less work = More Time to do things to better oneself.

Guys, he's just going through every strawman, one by one.

Au contraire. The logical conclusion to take from Stirner, Marx Kropotkin is that co-operation is in our self-interest. Collective organization is the highest manifestation of individualism.

You should be shut away in a gulag forever, you deserve it.

Imagine actually being this fucking naive.

The point stands, almost no one is going to go through a decade of education if there is no financial incentive at the end of it.

enjoy the humor thread comrades
and stay ignorant Holla Forums

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i absolutely would go through a decade of education if i could because i know im dead stupid and want to learn things

show me the financial incentive for going to college today, fbi-kun.

Most people don't volunteer or do charity work, would you something far harder when you get the same regardless

stem

in SU there was no income tax, because budged was formed from turnover tax

also, what is wrong with welders, janitors, engeeners, doctors, professors living under the same roof?
elitist much? can't sleep well without feeling superior to some industrial proletarian?

also, in a socialists society various therapists-bureaucrats will be replaced by medical expert systems as a part of general trend towards automation of bureaucracy

also, you're a fucking special snowflake faggot, and I woudn't eat at the same table with you

also, kys

and yet people still pursue higher education for non-STEM reasons. And even if you do get a STEM degree the jobs are still drying up fast.

i dont really want a job im provided for already but i want to go to school

Commukikes literally can never meaningfully address this one (1) fatal flaw.

And the vast majority of those people are stupid. Smart people don't do gender studies degrees, they become doctors or scientists because it pays well.

Look at it this way, the unemployed who get welfare and their homes paid for them have the option of volunteering. The vast majority don't and would rather play video games/watch tv/ other selfish things. If you think people would do it regardless of financial incentive then why don't they?

Muh incentives

How are you not making the small step from that to "I don't really want a slightly harder job, I'll get the same either way.?"

And more to the point, why do you want to go to school if you don't want a job, virtually every book you'd possibly want to read can be found for free on the internet. You don't need a school to learn.

Most people don't do charity work because they have other shit to do, or don't want to work even more than they already do. The fact that charity exists in the first place shows that interest in helping others is a thing.

Do you faggots fucking read the thread with your eyes closed or what? And for what it's worth, that's a terrible reaction image.

because ive never gone before and i dont really have any education besides knowing how to read and write and it kind of shackles me

Non-STEM is not only gender degrees, this meme needs to die hard. You have highly intelligent, hard-working people actively pursuing paths in history, philosophy and other areas because there is such a thing as passion. This passion also applies to doctors and scientists who get worked to the fucking bone, when they could have pursued a business path-line with a higher quality of life.. You also ignore the fact that right now even having any kind of degree from a well-regarded university still serves as something of a social passport. This is not necessarily fair, but that's how it is. In any case, your views on academia are blinkered.

Stopped reading there. I don't care about your kulak sob stories.

read>>1728600
and weep faggot

let me fix that quote for you

If people do things regardless of incentives then capitalism would not be possible, instead of wasting money on the new iphone or a new car people would donate their money feeding Africa or curing cancer. They don't. This by itself shows that people care more about getting shit for themselves than for helping people.

This is why socialism always fails

You already have all you need, you have an internet connection. What you don't have is an excuse. Better yourself instead of complaining, lefty scum.

Business is a considerably more cut throat area to work in than science or medicine, one requires intelligence, the other requires admittedly less intelligence but a certain callousness to make anywhere near as much of a paycheck.

What did you get a degree in?

thx m8

Kike shill

that's actually the first time I've been called that

People need to stop shilling for Makhno already, the Free Territory was barely successful and its distribution policies were terrible in application. Unless you think raiding for supplies and having a police force is a successful communist movement then congratulations, your at least not an anarchist.

I don't get your point, there is people who do take easier jobs for identical payment.

all of this is completely a-historical and baseless. If you are going to shit post at least try you incompetent shill

kulak

also

Why are you even on a computer, let alone this board, if you are this mentally unable?

Ok, let me explain.

If people don't want to work more than they already do then why would somebody work hard if they get the same amount regardless.

When people decide they don't want to work hard they are deciding not to get paid alot of money.

Work = Get money
Work hard = Get more money

If working hard doesn't get you more money then people won't work hard.

YES, there are people who do take easier jobs for identical payment, but there is no one who takes less payment for a harder job.

I'm not seeing an argument. Take a look at people on minimum wage and compare of productive they are vs someone on $200K a year.

You get what I mean, if there is no reward for working hard then people don't work hard, see the effort you put into your posts as an example.

The top earners in our societies are those who live off the product of other people's labor, they don't produce anything.

there's no reward for working hard as it is. you think you're going to get promoted if you don't clock in your overtime?

I suppose they didn't work hard to get to their positions then? Producing something is not the same as working hard.

I suppose multinational corporations just spring into existence by themselves and are not built up by individuals from nothing?

If work doesn't produce anything then it doesn't deserve renumeration. Or do you want to pay people for making mud pies?

When I worked for a building design firm there was a man whos sole job was to secure contracts with business owners or the state. He would present his cause for the company I worked for doing the job.

He produced nothing but without his hard work we wouldn't have anyone to design buildings for.

You don't have to produce something to work hard.

This means literally nothing. The most shit jobs that require the most work go often unnoticed in our society. Even those who work in R&D who arguable "make something" (if you consider using the already existing intellectual commons of humanity as a form of profit "making something") are often lucky if they make it to higher middle class payment.

My god you are inept! These industries came about through normally collective efforts. They where imagined by a collection of people, supported with an initial payment by wealthy backers and financiers, and completely built off the backs of millions of Proletariat! Are you even trying to sound smart????

I guess your not?

What I originally meant was that people are tired after a day's work, and charity is more work whose only reward is helping others. Now, for what you said before, about studying for 10 years and that, some people do that, becuase they find a subject fascinating. It's like reading up on history or philosophy while you don't care about being a historian or a writer.
For the case of working harder in your job, then it could be from a sense of duty, as it's often been in war times, or that you're passionate. And I'm still not sure whether your argument is adressing that situation in a capitalist or in a communist society.

I work with lots of people who do that. They're all fucking terrible, and I bet he was too.

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Like sweeping a street for 7 hours a day vs 16 hours in meetings, managing a hundred people and working through your lunch hour? One is far easier than the other and you know it.

A corporation or business is not an industry

No, a corporation comes into being to sell a product, generally the people who design the product form the business with financial backing.

You make it sound like slavery when its a mutually agreed upon contract

How many examples of someone studying for 10 years knowing they will have no financial benefit at the end of it can you give me?

He was alright, but thats not the point. He worked hard, did a vital job and yet produced no product. This idea of something only having value if its a tangible product is retarded.

You don't need an Iphone, buying one isn't the same as starving to death. You are as consumerist as everyone else, the only difference is everyone else is ok with it and doesn't feel the need to hypocritically cry about it.

why not just raise the quality of housing for everyone instead of making everyone live in a hovel

Sorry, you have to die. Fascists have to die.

"work for me in shit conditions or starve"
"ok"
"haha can't complain you agreed it's voluntary"

most countries have huge labour surpluses
kill yourself

In Yankeeland, I honestly have no idea, but it's not rare for someone to study world history, different types of weapons, cinematic direction, artistic movements, development of musical currents or whatever you can think of for well over ten years, in their free time. You ought to differentiate study in a university to studying a topic by yourself, though the result may be identical.
Now, down here in Argieland universities are free of charge, so some people take courses in things they're interested in if they have enough free time.

lmao

Nice strawman fool. I mean actual laboring jobs, those things that make the worlds spin like the factory worker in china who has a 19 hour shift, and is prevented from killing herself by nets set up my floor managers.

also
This seems like an entirely different world to me. Undoubtedly, there are a few small business managers who have this on their list of things to deal with, but most of the actual CEO's I've come into contact with in my life barely spend time in their place of work and can normally be found out on "power brunch". However I don't expect you to take my word for it, this is after all more anecdotal evidence, but at least I have made the claim of having seen this instead of blatantly pulling this concept of the "tireless and selfless entrepreneur" out of my ass like you have.

wording error, my bad
but the point still stands

Property itself is theft. I have no choice but to sell my labor power to someone else or starve. If this is a mutual contract, then I could hypothetically lock you in a room and refuse to release you through my doorway (property) until you pay a toll of a life worth a slavery. You would be entering into a contract because you where ultimately coerced due to circumstance and enclosure of necessary utilities (the door). So no, capitalism is not simply a collection of mutual exchanges, it is the mutual exchange of the products of the labor of others between those who have had no say in how it is being sold, used, or extracted in the workplace.

TL;DR=neck yourself

As more and more products are added to society, some of those product overtime will become necessary in order to compete or operate in that society, especially when the person selling you the products job is to convince you that you need the product. You could live offline from the internet and never pay for any services, but then your ability to communicate and interact with society would decrease as well and so your ability to build connections decreases as well. There is no such thing as ethical consumerism, we consume because its the system we exist in. Employers in their rational self interest will look to pay their employees the least they can and employees will try to get paid the most they can. When jobs overtime are reduced due to automation to mostly maintenance and management most people will be unable to compete without reducing their wages to levels below that of the cost of the automation which will decrease more and more as society progresses. Do you really think this is it? That capitalism is the last frontier and nothing will come after? When we come to the point we can produce near limitless amounts of surplus for almost nothing are we still expected to pay what little we have left to acquire it?

If you became a doctor cause you wanted to be "respected" and "live better than everyone else" you need to go to Gulag anyway, faggot.

Tell me more about how your hospital will be clean without a janitor.

oh, and,

You don't know what communism is, do you?

the final frontier is waiting for pie in the sky bullshit like teh singularity or mars colonies and hoping you'll be able to afford them

Oh, and, yes, you need any smartphone in general. In fact, anything BUT an Iphone.

Let me guess.. you don't need a car in the US either, right? I mean… It's not like cities were build around the idea of people owning cars, or anything… I mean.. As long as you don't die… right?

Whoa, look at Mr. Big-Shot here with his belief in entitlement to life!