The most prominent marxist economist in America

Tankies don't know what words mean apparently.

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This. Gotta shift 'em left one step at a time. And he's not just advocating for co-ops, he's pointed out cases of it happening like in the Silicon Valley Republicans example. People are going to naturally move toward co-ops as they realize it's an option. That's just going to be part of the long transition to socialism.

It's still private property if it excludes other workers who aren't part of the company from association. He also doesn't really oppose markets. A cooperative in capitalism is nothing but a capitalist company where the union has basically overtaken the board of directors

Read Marx holy shit :(

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Dictatorship of the proletariat isn't meant to achieve communism overnight.

Yeah we have seen how good these transitions work in Yugoslavia with their millionaires, overproduction and IMF loans

For a proper transition you need a strictly organized vanguard party and a centralized economy, otherwise the capitalists will outcompete the cooperatives if the cooperatives still work in the framework of capitalism (law of value + commodification). This can be seen in Vietnam today - see how your socialism = co-ops works out there

A different form of capitalism with marginally less alienation but a tanked economy doesn't go anywhere, and is not a DotP since the proletariat doesn't collectively own the means of production

makes sense to me
what's wrong with democratizing socialism, tankie?

The wolff fighting wall street.

kek

First off, he implies that workers in the USSR didn't have democracy at their workplaces at any given time in Soviet history, this is evidently false

Secondly, democracy alone is not the only ingredient for socialism, which is based in a materialist world view. Basically filling out a ballot doesn't solve alienation if the production is still for exchange and not for use. Instead of fetishizing democratic processes we should focus on reciprocal participation of the working class in the mode of production - and apply democracy there where it proves itself useful as feedback system

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The definition of Socialism says nothing about worker alienation or production for use instead of exchange. It only talks about worker ownership of the means of production.

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That’s the dictionaries fault not mine.

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How is your "spontaneous workers uprising" going, lethargic fat leftcom faggot?

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kek
this so much

Yeah because I totally said that

I can't become a tennis player over night but when I continue to break my racket I will never become one

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The same as the glorious "people's revolution" faithful to the teachings of Stalin and Groven Furr, which will take 200 years and 87 NEPs to transition to communism, teenage tankie LARPer.

The way to traditional socialism is market socialism, because in market socialism Porky won’t try to stop socialist moments because Porky won’t exist.

Except the latter actually happened while you guys set up standards impossible to meet so you have an excuse to denounce every revolutionary momentum.

You don't need le ebul porky for exploitation. Workers can exploit themselves based on their relations to the MoP

Oh and ridiculing Grover Furry is not debunking him by the way

Literally who.
That's not Harry Cleaver

dont bulli wollf, hes just passing out gateway drugs

This is the same board that spergs out at the Leninist notion of transitional society but somehow capitalism with cooperative characteristics is more acceptable then what anything that happened with the Russian Revolution. I'm not really against Wolff per say I think he's a fine economist but his political prescriptions and practice leave a lot to be desired

*per se

The point of reformism and "transitionalism" is not to get us directly to communism. The point is to give proles a taste of things better than late stage capitalism. That way, when the co-ops and reforms get crushed under the wheels of global capital, they will both be tangibly angry and have at least a vague notion of a better world to fight for.

Ya I hear you, like Wolff and [email protected]/* */ isn't necessarily a bad thing considering how anti-com the culture is but 1. I don't see how Holla Forums can make excuses for Wolff while criticizing the Leninist notion of the transitional society 2.im bout ready to watch him go full bolshie

We're not a hivemind. Lots of people are critical of Wolff. Lots of people are critical of Lenin. They don't always overlap, and when they do they don't necessarily both criticize transitional society per Lenin and praise Wolff's rhetoric of gradual transition. I think you're talking about a small group of people here.

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If you aren't a liberal right now, you will be in a few years.

That doesn't matter. Lenin threads have always had more "criticizing" shitposts than Wolff, and that's a problem.

You're both worse

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That's a complete an utter lie.

I'm not sure whether you're asking for more criticism or less.