It's not the system, it's the people!

Is this peak liberalism?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Vienna
readpolitzer.org/index.html
twitter.com/AnonBabble

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What's the best way to argue against this?

people act in their class interests all the time despite everyone being 'atomized individuals'

That's a good point. The system isn't some abstract idea, but a concrete hierarchy where people's interests and actions will vary depending on their location in the hierarchy.

no, but that right there is peak Progressive Idpol Victim culture

You don't have to absolve people of all guilt, but when it comes to action focusing on systemic issues means people will focus on systemic solutions rather than honestly believing replacing a Bad Capitalist with a Good Capitalist will change things

It's this kind of argument. You don't argue with it, you just beat the other side with shoes.

[spoiler]This is literally true, though…
Confucius was right.[/spoiler]

Yes;
is the most anti-materialist leftoid bullshit you'll ever hear.

Confucius was just a mouthpiece for the heriditary porkies of his time, Confucian virtue ethics conveniently give the prince and family absolute power. Shang Yang on the other hand was basically a bronze age tankie and /ourguy/.

are you going to deny that the average person isn't a mouthbreathing idiot? rulers count on the plebs' being stupid, since that stupidity helps keep them in charge

*deny that the average person is, i meant

Frankly, I freeze up at such bollocks. How the fuck do you even begin replying to something this asinine? "No, that's not the case, nobody could possibly believe it, even schizophrenics, you're lying?" That's not an argument in and of itself, and nothing else really comes to mind whenever it comes out of the blue.

I'm going to deny that their "stupidity" is ever little more than a consequence of the conditions they live under; the binding forces of the prevailing ideology influencing them. This "stupidity" you characterize is only reflective, not innate or even truly chosen.

wait what? Isnt he a communist anymore?

This isn't an argument, he was still right. And, no, Confucious wanted to be his own porkie king and preferred the porkies of the past to the porkies of his time.

That doesn't mean they aren't currently fucking stupid and that is why ML is the only way we will see revolution. The only way they can gain consciousness is if the system is forcibly changed so we as a society stop shitting out consumers and start giving birth to humans.

Nah, it's just how the meme is structured.

they have the option to question that ideology. they aren't forbidden to seek alternative views or information. in my opinion there's no excuse for their ignorance, especially in the age of the search engine
see, i'm not so sure about that. this is only anecdotal; i personally was not raised in a radical environment, nor especially encouraged to question the prevailing order; i am not wealthy or particularly intelligent, and i didn't even go to high school; yet i still ended up a leftist, because when i looked at the world something inside me said "this isn't right." in my case there was an innate feeling of dissent that drove me to question and resist everything. but when i look at most others i see an innate tendency to do the opposite; an innate gullibility easily exploited by rulers and wouldbe rulers

in my experience, there is an "innate stupidity" and it's part of why things are so fucked up and seemingly impossible to fix

You lads have about the most difficulty of all lefties getting out of your armchairs, whom the fuck are you telling this to?

You know who you sound like.

it's good to see anfems are back again leftypol would be dead without you

Not even anfem, just like to see people get triggered over it when I don't even mention feminism. :^)

yes, i know what it sounds like, but the reality is that each individual is responsible for his own beliefs. that includes everyone

oh thank you paniced

Beliefs are not innate. They aren't. Beliefs: innate, they are not.


Are you a literal autist? Is it harder to talk to leftists compared to rightists, considering that the latter tend to use simpler, more direct language?

i didn't say beliefs are innate. i said stupidity is

and weren't you banned yesterday, twice? or are you evading again?

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The stupidity may have been pre-ordained by circumstance but the theoretical capacity to escape exists.
I know it's the same sort of attitude as self-made businessmen have ("if i can do it anyone can"), but there's the outside factor that even if you try and force people to put on the glasses, it very rarely works. Even if they take your points on board they go no further. Very rarely do self made businessmen take such a direct approach to anointing a pleb with money.

(I don't actually do this much personally, but it crops up in discussions. Actually in this case the stupid people are Blairites, not the dumbest-of-the-dumb voters.)

Nothing breeds contempt like social democracy. The "smart" people are all liberal idiots and the voters are worse than animals.


Inclined to agree with this, even though a revolutionary vanguard contains obscene risks. You've got to have a few reigns of terror before you get an American republic except not the worst country on earth but good instead.

The problem is a system that leads to the centralization of power. The desire to dominate and screw over your fellow human being is innate, at least to some people. The only solution is to systematically remove the capacity to do so by denying any one person or group the tools they need to do it. Socialism does this by decentralizing both economic and political power, ensuring that nobody wields the political or material resources to systematically oppress others.

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you're gonna have a bad time m8

anybody that isn't a misanthrope is high on ideology and subsequently static, human trash

gas the populists tech war now

What is a system but a lot of people doing things? :^)

It's peak ideology

Unironically this. People tend to see "systems" and modes of productions as magical entities seperate from man, when they're in reality just different ways we relate to each other

We need to gather these kinds of liberal/centrist statements and possible regulations all in one place. It seems to me that people, when coming into the far-left are quite easily destabilize by these seemingly deep one liners, since they don't know enough theory to refute these by themselves.


"People" are also just biological systems, made up of cells and bacteria. Why don't we base our study of society on that level? Or even better, chemical or quark. Obviously these exist more than such big systems like cells. It's not like abstraction is a helpful tool to understand larger systems. Also, emergent effects don't exist. We should limit our analysis of society to gravity, strong-, weak- and electromagnetic forces. The rest doesn't exist anyway!

If you're not familiar with the history of this argument, it's absolutely fascinating and 100% relevant to the current political climate. It's not just a lame gotcha, it's an assumption that underlies the entire intellectual framework of libertarianism as it is known in the United States.

It was first put forth in early 20th century Vienna, Austria when Mises and the other classical liberals were fiercely debating SocDems and Marxists in the university and in the political arena there. The political situation was extremely incensed and there was fighting on all fronts for control of the city by every political faction imaginable.

You had real life SocDems, AnCaps, Marxists, fascists, monarchists, all clashing with each other in an intellectual battle royale for the city. SocDems eventually won and things seemed pretty amazing and then WW1 happened.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Vienna

Is this peak idealism?

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but as the spectacle of sigfried and roy taught us, lions can be tamed.

i pick lions. (i can't tell if he's feudalism or socialism.)

It implies we live in post ideological anarchism

you're a cuck who gets btfo and rolled back every other election cycle

you don't have to rub it in ;-;

What if it's both?
System influances the people and vice versa, though the way things are, the other way around would be to a far lesser degree.

Confucius say you are faggot

We're all ignorant before learning on our own or being properly educated. That's not something that should be held against someone, if it's an obstacle for them to obtain one.

Very true, but I'd add that this is definitely a "muh human nature" argument as well.

This. As far as that pic though, I'd say it's far more accurately represented by Hillary voting idiots.

Whoa, there. Have you ever been in poverty? This is conservative dogshit tier rhetoric.
Most people are literally too busy working themselves to an early grave, don't have proper access to online, come from a family that's alo too busy/lower educated & canot provide proper guidance.

I was this way, just a couple of years ago. Internet connection is a luxury when you can't afford to feed yourself properly. That's not being hyperbolic whatsoever, either. That's the reality for many Americans. I didn't even know the basics of getting a grant or loan to go to college. I just figured I wasn't worthy of that or something I'd ever be able to do or afford.

How long has it been since you decided to join this board? You sound like a very recent Holla Forums addition. If you look at all the incredible medical, tech & science breakthroughs we have gained in recent history, that enough should be a counter. We'd make much more progress if everything wasn't monetized or profit-driven as well.

My keyboard is pretty fucked atm, so please ignore typos.

Nuh uh man! I totally won't become a tyrant if you let me put into place my ideology of enforced equality and political opinion!

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I forget, in the marxist wet dream, the equality magically happens on its own.

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HOT TAKE

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Kill yourself. I'm pretty sure that "huh" was asking you to elaborate what you're talking about, which is clearly nonsense, according to

I like how Wolff explains about the "market" being this mythical beast we now tend to ascribe some sort magical power to. Like some entity that cannot be changed or questioned, simply because it's been in place for a while.

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Y'all need to quit letting these poorly hidden Holla Forums false flags or shitty reasoning just slip by, unchallenged. Don't wait for another to do it, as apparently many won't even bother nowadays. Some are thriving here because they're not being btfo on a regular basis.

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Neat.

enjoy your ban faggot

and 'educated' people vote against their own material interest. Who's really the dumb one?

Not him. Yes, I have. Yes, I STILL am poor, to the point where, sometimes, I don't know if I will have something to eat next month. I still agree with everything he said. There is no excuse for being an ignorant tool. I am overworking myself to an early grave just as much as the cog to my side. That is no excuse.

Then you should understand how hard it is to worry about educating yourself while trying to put a roof over your head & to eat. What you're saying just isn't realistic. You're also not addressing my argument or presenting an argument of your own for why there is "no excuse".

they are. most education is training for stupidity and conformity

yes, i live in poverty, or am generally struggling financially
i explained that it wasn't my family that guided me. my family was also busy working and is not political
2 years
you sound like someone who didn't read my post and instead started attacking a strawman
almost all of which were developed by the state. also not sure what that has to with my post
also not sure what that has to with my post. my post was concerned with the concept of stupidity in individuals, not "progress"

Well, most people are not you, user. Most everyone questions the way things are. The truth is that most people are struggling to have the necessities, so being political isn't an ability luxury, let's be real they have access to. Again, having online access is extremely important for those who cannot afford a college education, etc. I personally also dropped out in the 9th grade & never went to college. I was just lucky that I found someone who did have access to these things & they love me. I'd be in jail or dead if I were still in the states & I'm a fairly smart person. It's someone's material conditions that dictate the type of life or abilities you'll have or have access to. We live under a capitalist system & are inundated by this propaganda constantly, after all.

This is why I don't completely hold it against people for not being informed, because I was there not too long ago & experienced the same. However, when it comes to many liberals, like Hillary voters who have access to information online & are presented it, yet ignore it, I don't have as much sympathy for.

Another problem is our dogshit, corporate media. Many people who do find the time to watch it, are brainwashed with this flashy, manufactured consent thrown at them. It's a huge obstacle. Again, however, I know that's the media's dirty business rather than blaming people. One's much more culpable than the other.
I literally quoted that part of your post.
That's just retarded, user. We're under a capitalist economy.
How can you not see how it's related? "Progress" in these fields are due to us, who couldn't make these discoveries if we were "innately" stupid.

i was exposed to the same propaganda as everyone else, but i never believed it. the question is why does propaganda work on some people but not on others?
your point being? do you not know how the technology industry operates?
because i'm not talking about stupidity in terms lack of creative intelligence or technical ability. i'm talking about stupidity in terms of gullibility, lack of critical thought, and tendency to obey; lack of independent thought

it's like this: you didn't have to be noam chomsky to know that invading iraq was a bad idea; yet the overwhelming majority of the american populace eagerly supported it. then, almost 2 years into the war, clearly seeing the destruction and misery wrought, they re-elected the people responsible for the war. are you going to tell me that's not stupidity?

Your "point" was an assumption about people's lives and how it impacts their ability, or lack thereof, of educating themselves. I then proved your "point" is bullshit by being in the exact same circumstances you alluded to and still managing to educate myself.

This isn't some "bootstraps" bullshit, where there are material conditions to prevent you from climbing the social ladder. There is no excuse for you to not be able to educate yourself. Can't pay for Internet? Do as I did and steal some schmuck's wifi. Can't buy a pc/crappy laptop/phone? Go to your local library. There is no excuse, you sack of shit

Honestly, luck is a lot of it. You happened to come across something before them & learned this before them. I often have to reflect on when I was younger, to remember that someone I'm talking to hasn't learned everything I have or know certain facts yet.

You said
With that attitude yeah, not much would change. But many people don't ascribe to the "innate stupidity" of humanity.Sure we have flaws, but come on. I'm trying to highlight the incredible feats we've accomplished. You can call it the "state's" accomplishments, but that's retarded because humans are the state.

Getting major Holla Forums vibes here & I have been all day, all over the board. The only time that conversation gets so derailed that I have to check a couple posts back to see what the original claim even is, is when I'm debating a Holla Forumslack.

Like I said, propaganda, the spectacle plays a major role in this.

Funny thing is, I rant about this often. How the masses are so fucking stupid. But I don't attribute it to an innate trait, but a learned/brainwashed one coupled with people who are too busy trying to survive to keep up, which is specifically the goal of the bourgeoisie.

If I felt most people truly were all inherently stupid, I wouldn't be a goddamn socialist.

Lmao - I don't know you personally, user. You're going to have to present an argument other than "take my word for it".

Wow, so angry. :^)
Sounds pretty similar, if you ask me…

Please → readpolitzer.org/index.html

i'm not questioning that. humanity's technological advancements have nothing to do with my argument
that's your ideology. not my problem
wow, profound insight. truly enlightening

Well, glad we cleared that up.

you contributed nothing. your entire response reduces to "dude they're brainwashed it's not their fault lol" which is a bullshit cop out. the gullibility of the average person is costing the lives of millions of people, and all they'd have to do to stop it is look at things critically and ask a few basic questions, but that's apparently too hard

iraq is in ruins because of these people, and that's just one example. there's no excuse

*I should also clarify the opposite as well. That these people may know more than me or something I haven't learned yet.

Most normies are misanthropes that derive pleasure from hedonism, either physically (liberals, lolberts) or mentally (traditionalists, conservatives).

You mean, stop working to provide food & shelter to themselves. I contributed, you just weren't willing to engage more than a couple of low effort one-liner responses. You're being delusional.

If it's so easy, I hope you immediately drop everything & become a teacher or people's politician. Save the people! Or are they not worth it to you? Seriously though, with all this talk I hope you do.

Do you also not see how lazy it is to boil the conflict in Iraq just down to one simple cause? I even told you the masses frustrate me as well, but I don't just dog them for it or not expect anything better from them. I really hope you don't call yourself a socialist or lefty, since you have such little faith in your fellow man/worker.

lol. no, stop electing criminals and murderers to positions of massive power. stop supporting their crimes and murders. stop being a useful idiot

Follows instructions and jump, mongrel

And I'm saying things aren't as fucking simple as you're making them out to be. We need to educate "the masses" in order for this to happen; spread the word. People are more than capable of learning if they have the opportunity, because they are not inherently stupid.

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Wow, I'm sure you're from around here.
Use your words. Not memes, user.

You mean everyone?

they should and must educate themselves. if the masses are so useless and so deficient as to be incapable of something as basic as critical thought, then we have no chance

What made you so butthurt, my friend?

Most people don't wish to be exploited or to exploit others. They wished to be left the fuck alone. People's "nature" can change & heavily depends on the environment/material they were raised in or around.

Wrong.
Not mutually exclusive to the above.
Meaningless.

How can you not understand something as basic as "social being determines social consciousness"? As communist we should not be crying that muh people are too indifferent, we HAVE to change it ourselves, because it won't do so itself.

Meaningless post.

Not an argument.

I'm sure we all learned something from this exchange. we didn't
Present an argument for once in your life, faggot. Those one-liners are what's meaningless. You're refusing to have a conversation & are instead just shitting the bed.

feudalism was better than capitalism. this is known

Ok.

Shut up your pretentious fuckwit. You don't know shit, and neither does 90% of this board.

i am not moron

this was my argument:
all you could respond with was "dude propaganda lol" which is a meaningless one-liner, to use your term

Most people in the US do not see news regarding the misery their warring brings. Ideology is strictly made to justify the existing state of affairs, so you only see meaningless idiocy or things that concern only the country itself.

If, on the other hand, they do, more often than not there are designated ideologues who are appointed to justify this: see PragerU.

This is such a basic concept that it shouldn't really need to be explained.

Unless you actually engage in constructive or civil conversation with us, you'll never know this.


I made long, thoughtful posts. You however have not.

Pitiful.


Wrong. I know it now.

the war was shown in living colour, 24 hours a day on cnn, fnc, msnbc, bbc, and online. it was in newspapers and magazines, and on the radio. it wasn't hidden from view. none of it was secret

yes, very thoughtful. you've said nothing

This is why you should be banned - low effort shitposting & refusal to seriously post. We actually care about board quality.

*tips*

stop embarrassing yourself. if you don't have an answer, just don't post. also i am not

You're indistinguishable from him, so I couldn't care less. Same applies to you.

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Same to you, faggot

another thoughtful and enlightening post. you really are an impressive thinker

Your stupidity

I have yet to see you pose an argument. You have done nothing but shitpost and call everyone names, while trying to pass yourself off as that other guy. Please fuck off out of this board.

Is everyone on this board as pretentious as you?

Follow both of your own advices.

Assassinate yourself.

when are you going to pose an argument in response to that doesn't just boil down to "because propaganda"?

Yeah, because what are the odds that two equally stupid users are posting the same argument at the same time. Unless it's two Holla Forumslacks, I'm not buying it.

Also, unlike him, he actually is arguing with at least two people right now. I'm the other. They just seriously posted le fat reddit man picture. They are cancer & aren't willing to be reasoned with, which is why I stopped replying.

What do you mean 'weasel out'? Argue/debate about what?

Are you a wizard?

Yes we're too stupid to comprehend your genius, anonymous imageboard intellectual, that's why we're not responding 'seriously' to you

Neck yourself to be quite fair((you)s are a non renewable resource)

I am not the person that post was addressed and I already posted my own responses to your post, but don't see the point in pursuing an argument with idealists who think that

Debate about nothing. You have only responded with shitposts to people who were conversing with that other guy.


10 more years.

then why did you say that i posed no argument and "do nothing but shitpost"?