Tfw UBI will keep us as proles in the capitalist game forever and permanently kill any chance at revolution

yes, that's the point, read the op you fucking inbred

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I don't see why NEETs would have a problem with this. It's a consumer paradise, just like a lot of them would want.

If we get UBI they're going to use that as an excuse demolish social-democratic programs so unless we're given a substantial sum of money many will be worse off than they are now.

Seeing the state of the world, I would be okay with this.

Everybody wins

That's where class struggle comes in. My prediction is that just how pre-industrial class struggle centered around riots being used to lower the price of goods, future struggles will be defined by mass urban revolts to raise the UBI

But then you have to watch the girl you like get gangfucked in your compulsory media enjoyment cell.

In a really wrong way, sure.

It's not even a good lotus eater machine, think less supernatural bliss and more sponsored content/ reddit normies fellating Elon Musk's cybercock for all eternity.

When they talk about UBI in my country, they say it will replace all social security programs and the UBI would be (less than) minimum wage.
So yea, UBI sounds good at first but when you look into it it's actually just replacing another broken cog in the capitalist machine to keep it running for a little longer.

Exactly

No it won't.
You got meme'd OP, I'm sorry.

This. It will be the modern New Deal. A lot of leftists will fall for it and in 70 years time, future leftists, living in the remnants of civilization, will be pissed about it.

It's a recipe for a totalitarian hellscape. The non working population will be nothing but dead weight to the cyber elite. There's nothing stopping them from exploiting our minds and bodies through gruesome human experiments in an endless quest for profit maximisation. The powerful are going to do everything in their power to keep people in check. That means no internet as we know it, we'll be locked in sanitised consumer platforms. For today's technocrats, 'Troll' has already replaced 'dissenter'. Dissent is but a technical issue, to be resolved through technical means. The endgame of liberalism is the annihilation of humanity by rationalised progress. The elite is not worried about automation, if anything they seem worried it's not going fast enough because algorithmically generated blockbuster films and AI politicians still have a long way to go.

At least the New Deal had progressive elements to it. It was a genuine compromise that aided the working class in some ways. This is just subsidized consumption.

What's going to be real fun is when we get to things like digital eye balls and such. Oh, you don't have a subscription to Buck Fucker Monthly? Mosaic vision over whatever content you didn't pay for. Just pray that you can afford the dlc for your always online, subscription pacemaker.

Hmm, I'm just going to ignore my creeping suspicion that this is the most likely scenario, and instead hope the UBI covers my internet and PSN subscription

I dunno, either the ice caps or the nukes will get us eventually

Seems pretty good to me, fam. It basically turns the majority of the economy into GNU hobby work. Welcome to the Linux era.

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life salary > universal basic income
read Bernard Friot

you think they are going to give up their power just like that? when UBI arrives it will probably be conditioned on you using the approved platforms. People have already been subject to fines for copyright infringement for attempting to repair DRM enabled smart(tm) tractors on their own. just wait till they roll out the DRM enabled smart(tm) brain implants

We're just gonna have to start smashing Starbucks windows until it becomes unconditional then

so basically a central government office will decide what your salary is based off your qualifications and there will be no private salaries allowed?

also preventing any private contracting/self employed activity ?

wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Salary_for_Life

seems like it's going to involve a lot of administrative overhead

All the profits are socialized, and if you want your salary you get it in your local soviet which computes it from your qualifications and your activity (raising children,educating people,being a plumber,being sick/old,etc).

Not really. Capitalism would remain fundamentally unstable and there could easily be a general trend towards the distribution of the means of production in the longer term.

The alternative to UBI is an unspeakable body count. (including my own.)

UBI creates a huge incentive to bring manufacturing home, automate it and tax it instead of allowing overseas operations.
Free movement of capital is the biggest obstacle to UBI.

Social-Democratic programs have already slowly been abolished.
In the UK, the prospects are:
>Starvation because we've got ~760,000 job vacancies and more than 1.5 million people officially unemployed and ready to start work now

Can easily be levied on corporations. (You just make the tax burden lower than the wage-cost burden, while paying that to the workers. The workers are being paid say 70% of what they used to get, but they get 100% of their free time back.)
Clue is in the name: universal basic income. It's not UBI if you mandate people look for work or don't have big noses or something. (At worst I can see an exception for immigrants.)
Non issue. (Although tangentially, I'd love to know where we'd be if we went the then-socdem route of price-and-income controls in the 80s.)

That is coming UBI or not.

No way, not gonna happen.

Neo liberalism is an ideology, porky believes that any kind of consessions to proles will snowball into a revolution.

Porky could enact Keynesian policies that we know for sure work right now and stop the bleeding.

I say this as a long time Keynesian, it boggles my mind sometimes how far out of their way porky will go to avoid keysian policies

I get that I just find it odd because at that point you've reached communism pretty much so there is no point in even having money anymore

Only if you're adhering to the classical marxian conception of crisis theory. The reality, is that capitalism has managed its internal economic crises exceedingly well. The future of these internal economic crises are ambiguous.

However, one type of crisis is certain at this point: one caused not by the internal economic limits of capitalism, but by the external ecological limits. In a phrase, you have to google bookchin.

Corporations are the biggest tax evaders. The state knows it and accomodates for it in every economic maneuver. The cost of UBI will rest on people who have no way to evade (i.e. no choice but to pay taxes).

Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

So? We're talking about what's likely to happen, not what should happen. It's particularly surprising that you would hold these positions knowing what happens in UK with employment centres.

Inflation control is literally the reason for unemployment in every capitalist country. Some european countries have 40% youth unemployment. But I'm glad it's not an issue.

UBI pretty much requires a cashless economy doesn't it?

There's another group that can't avoid taxes, if a government chooses to tax them. Machines. They are fairly imobile, you can just count them and levy a head tax.

Anyway, that's besides the point. Allowing tax evasion is just a political choice, too.

Good luck for businesses evading taxes if capital controls are imposed. They'll need it.
I mean, if they're so unprofitable they won't mind being nationalised…
As democratic as any bourgeois democracy.
Then we're not talking about UBI at all, we're talking about exterminism.
Not really, given the point is to completely abolish such centres and drop people a cheque based on their national insurance or something.
It isn't, though. NAIRU is a neoclassical meme built on pure ideology. Inflation control is an excuse, not an actual necessity. If it was true, welfare would be hugely inflationary.

i know, and you can count on that choice not changing in the foreseeable future.

Well, good luck on imposing them? Every single government since I was alive in my country has promised (and, to some extent, made) controls. The problem remains because even if controls are compulsory, inspectors can be bribed.

Who said it was a necessity? The european technocrats think it, not me. Even the people who devised the 3% ceiling publicly admitted to it being completely arbitrary (and retarded), and yet it stands. I would gladly toss that agreement in the dust bin tomorrow, it's not my fault that the suicidal technocrats think differently and that I have to incorporate their influence in any reasonable inquiry about the future.

I'd assume this is all Holla Forums but I do believe there's actually a handful of leftists that are retarded enough to think they've created a new awesome Socialist strategy by siding with Neoliberalism at every opportunity. You dipshits need to read more, grow up and stop trying to be edgy.

UBI is promoted by liberals because it's automated charity: they give you enough money not to starve so they feel morally able to keep exploiting you.

Same shit could be said about everything else. Unions, welfare, labour laws, public enterprise, any economic design or institution made to improve the lives of working people. It doesn't mean that those things are bad or counter-productive, because if they use them to keep the proles satisfied, it doesn't necessarily means it worked. The US for example was more radical following its more left-leaning presidents (Lincoln, Roosevelts, etc) than it has been since Neoliberalism.

This logic is faulty unless you take a revolution-or-nothing approach to politics, and in that case you need to read Marx.

Post yfw Sam Hyde was right all along

ubi is meant to replace healthcare, retirement, all the things that are seen as charity by the bourgeoisie. Except if you live in a third-world country without healthcare, ofc.

ubi = unique bux for idiots

Why are you talking about this vague, malleable concept like it's a one-type system that will be implemented uniformly everywhere after the exact same set of concessions and never subjected to change?

You are legit too stupid to be argued with and should just stay away from politics.

ubi is the antithesis of "to everyone according to their needs", its inefficiency will be an excuse to destroy all the previous reforms that were inspired by socialism.

are you guys making reference to Black Mirror?

won't people just be able to get rebuilt motorcycles elsewhere cheaper?

this is one of the most likely scenarios I see happening, UBI is on the cards but Porky is violently opposed to the porkies in govt making him pay for it. similar deal with taxing robots to keep automation in check.

apart from all the (slightly) less likely, more totalitarian Brave New World-meets-1984-meets-Black Mirror scenarios, this is easily the most worrying scenario.

a question I'd like to pose for people more economically minded people: can you actually somehow stem the tendency of the rate of profit to fall with any measure that doesn't just involve squeezing more relative surplus-value out of labour or going through crisis, like say UBI?

The realisation of this principle is only possible during higher stages of communism dipshit, read a book.

Welfare wasn't inspired by Socialism, the first Welfare State was created by Bismarck precisely in order to drive people away from Socialism. Of course, it didn't work, and with the welfare policies in place people felt comfortable creating the most significant left-wing movements in history a couple of decades later.

And UBI won't work for this purpose either. It will only drive pressure off the labour market, give people some confidence in being "black-listed" for radical activities and give people time to read, maybe study, learn shit. Anyone who has ever made a serious attempt at organizing know how this would clean some huge obstacles for us. It's the best possible thing for the Left right now.

Zizek on UBI - youtube.com/watch?v=8tVmSHEIKwk

The perfect social democratic welfare state dream.

Just pretend you're looking for a job, man.

Problem is you can't go on vacation, since you have to be available for the labor market.

The thirst for freedom will never die user

I don't understand why you think that the bourgeois state is a confederation of idiots. we've been talking about UBI since the late 70's now and you can rest assured that the legislators know that its implementation in any shape but the most dystopian one will result in massive discontent. It's your best shot at a revolution. They know it. That's exactly the reason we will never get it, same way we will never get full automation under capitalism except as a general looming threat, like "oh look there's a factory in Bumfuck Nowhere that's completely automated" or "look at that, google's making self driving cars".

It's like contradictions of capitalism 101 m8.

When everything winds up automate no it wont.

I hope you are right user

Food stamps will be the death of capitalism
t.idealistic leftist circa 1964

Doesn't UBI mean proles will have more time to read and organize, it's not like UBI is going to prevent capitalism's inevitable crisis, better be prepared before shit hits the fan

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UBI will destroy itself because of the tenancy of the rate of profit to fall. Marx my words.

*the dialectic is in motion*

did you read who I was quoting? I know that crisis can't be averted permanently under capitalism, but often the powers that be don't even try if it means possibly giving concessions to the working class, like the other user pointed out.

'improving the lives of working people' is insufficient to deserve support from real leftists

UBI is just the welfare state on steroids. Strongly recommended you guys watch this: youtube.com/watch?v=0cEzK5Mz0OA.

how is UBI even supposed to work?
this helicopter money shit will cause inflation, plain and simple
QE didn't cause hyperinflation because banks hoarded money, but households will spend them
there is a conservation law, you can't just create value out of printing press

someone needs to pay for UBI, be it pigs or prols
it the same situation like with pensions

this guy knows his shit

only if there's sufficient demand.
(there isn't, demand is incredibly depressed.)

effective demand is not depressed
if commodity base doesn't increase proportionally to money base, there will be inflation
to increase production firms increase money base by taking loans and whatnot
so money base will always be ahead of commodity base

the monetary base of the US more than doubled after the financial crisis with no significant inflationary effects
(the "banks hoarded money" argument doesn't really hold water when you consider: the aim of throwing money at them was to get them to make loans again, based on the idea it would throw even more money into the hands of individuals and businesses, thus restoring demand. unless hyperinflation was a policy aim…)

M0 money supply hiked, but M2 money supply remained fairly stable

UBI means more automated jobs so the workers will become obsolete in the future so it is not a good news.

aim was to provide enough liquidity so that banking system wouldn't go belly up
banks had a clusterfuck of a balance sheets
too many toxic assets
all those QE money are now returning back as interest payments

The idea is to tax the work of machines and redistribute this as buying power for people. It's dumb.

but taxing machinery will increase costs of production, and so will lead to inflation
it is consumers who will always pay any kind of indirect taxes in the end

you're a neoclassical aren't you

kek, I'm ML

read steve keen
bounce the chapter on marx if you want to it's not great.

I've read his debunking economics some years ago and don't remember he was an advocate for UBI

twitter.com/profstevekeen/status/802781223726809088?lang=en
also on outright helicopter money and a debt jubilee: youtube.com/watch?v=C7plYn2qDN0

worth reading this about his part about Marx: mccaine.org/2012/07/04/steve-keens-critique-of-marxs-theory-of-value-a-rejoinder/

Automation ya!

You faggots actually think they will let this pass?

so Keen basically proposes that government should pay off all the private debt so that capitalism can have a fresh start

I don't see how it will fix anything in the long or even mid term
forces that push people to borrow will still be there, stagnating or even falling real income
so it will result in another cycle of debt-driven growth and eventual collapse
and then what? another fresh start?
this sounds beyond retarded
never mind that this will also accelerate wealth inequality trend

reminder

what you describe is how the system already works. debt driven boom and bust with massive bankruptcies and a worsening cycle.
his basic point is that capitalism is inherently unstable and that the aim of government policy should be to keep that within acceptable bounds.
debtdeflation.com/blogs/2017/04/22/what-if-my-analysis-is-used-for-evil-purposes/

meanwhile in reality: government debt as a % GDP plunged the one time anything resembling social democracy was given a try.

jacobinmag.com/2017/01/ubi-finland-centre-party-unemployment-jobs/

i'm not the utopian here, i'm the one talking about how these things get implemented in real life. not my fault succdem parties happen to support them every time.

Meanwhile in reality an imperialist state's debt went down when they weren't in the middle of a world war or global economic collapse coupled with maintaining a vast overseas empire. Golly!

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It promptly led to inflation because value production could not keep up with the expanding money supply. Furthermore, it made little to no dents in the labor movement - if anything, things only radicalized towards the end of the '60s, until the '68 Democratic Convention where the Left was openly repressed and this was not challenged further. It was this pacification which allowed Carter and his right hand man Volcker to institute the neoliberal deregulation and replacement of socdem fiscal policy with monetary policy, thereby initializing the process of deindustrialization, shift of the state from a giving to a punitive role, and general destruction of all organizations standing in the slightest opposition to capital's forward march, a process which only accelerated under Reagan and Clinton. If they had not set the stage for a crisis to be possible (as the economy would have chugged on just fine if it hadn't been for the combination of high social spending with the oil shocks), then capitalism might have ended in the 1970s or early 1980s as the labor Left regrew. Perhaps it would have been further left-moving socdem until the end of times and Fukuyama would have been right.
In general essence, the basic line of thinking which you ridicule is correct but useless because Porky evolved to fight it. Its effectiveness from a revolutionary perspective depends on there already being a militant social movement with initiative behind it.

the money supply expansion was a result of "innovation" in the financial sector, not a cost of social democratic policies. money creation is endogenous, which is why monetarism has always been a dismal failure.

inflation was linked to the aforementioned "innovation", the collapse of breton woods, oil crisis, and the regular financial cycles (which have continued chugging along ever since as private-debt GDP ratios rocket) that the bipolar nature of capitalism will always encourage, not excessive social spending.

It doesn't matter and cannot save capitalism as long as everything is done for profit.

It doesn't examine the contradictions of capitalism. It's just bandaids.

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yes it can

UBI, but in order to claim it you have to provide proof of searching for jobs or do volunteer work

or something