Muh identity politics

Rosa Luxemburg was brocialist to the core.

Because idpol is an all consuming cancer. The second you start taking it seriously all discussion of anything but race, gender and so in goes out the window.

Mixed race guy here. Good point. I've been getting heavily into Marxism/classical leftism lately from browsing Holla Forums and watching series of videos uploaded by anarcho-communist YouTubers. So called leftists on this message board actually conflate Black Lives Matter and their cause with purple haired fat bitches wielding megaphones and shouting about gender neutral pronouns when the movement A) aims to take down the prison industrial complex B) end The War On Drugs C) end police brutality and D) was inspired by Assata "Pigs In A Blanket" Shakur who's still on the run to this day and The Black Liberation Army. Any other black closet-Marxists who facepalm at this shit?

Good. It's an issue that should be seriously discussed in stead of be just another liberal taboo.

This. It's an effect of this board being heavily populated with former Holla Forumsyps. Hypocritically whining about how idpol is a distraction, while allowing the board to get distracted with nonstop whining about idpolers, who will never see their complaints. That and a constant discussion of whatever retardation Holla Forums is up to at the moment.

Just take this board with a grain of salt. Most of the posters here are underage and/or have no struggle. It is a small, irrelevant community with less than 1k active users. There are some good conversations to be had, but you have to wade through a lot of shit to find them.

The name of the organization "Black Lives Matter" is based on a false narrative and is inherently divisive identity politics.

too bad they don't want to do anything about blacks killing each other or committing crimes against whites

MemriTV rules. I binge watch videos of Arabs fighting on national television on a semi-regular basis.

Hi Holla Forums

We complain about Nazis generalizing things but there's no nuance here either

I feel like this opinion is a purely internet one. Race, gender, and class were all tied together into beautiful analyses of capitalism all through the 20th century. Sure we've lost much of the nuance, but the idea that examining the problems capitalism creates will automatically transform into liberalism is historically false.

You're right. The problem is people here get too wrapped up in the flaws of BLM and throw the baby out with the bathwater. Despite the liberal and racialist elements, BLM at it's core is an anti-police mass movement which means it deserves our support.

Fuck off Holla Forums

It's mostly the name. Black Lives Matter will never enthuse anyone not Black. If you're not allowed in the club, it's harder to sympathize.

hi reddit. keep trying to slide us. i'm not leaving

Maybe if you're a fucking child.

You don't have to be an idpoler to be annoyed by Holla Forums's obsession with it.

American police kill blacks at a rate of over 3x as high as blacks kill black though…

"b-but what about black on black crime!!"
As if institutionalized racism doesn't exist on a grand scale (look at incarceration rates). As if the material conditions of denying black folks jobs and decent incomes, as a result of capitalism and racism, doesn't play directly into violence rates. As if all of this can't be explained through the lens of Marxism and leftist analysis.

You're being lazy. Go ahead, make the case, why would supporting BLM be in the interest of a non-Black? If you can't make that case, you will get no support.

obsession with what? not letting the board's discourse be overtaken and dominated by obnoxious liberalism?

cry more liberal racebaiter

No faggot, you are the idpol

Yeah, I hear you. I don't like their grovelling non-violent ideology and how wrapped up the movement has become with "intersectionslity" (white moderate and homosexual allies), but at it's core it aims to deal a massive blow to some of the capitalist's most tyrannical institutions.

not even responding to the points being made

under what context? not all killings are identical
oh it's retarded

The board is already overtaken with it. If it weren't, there wouldn't be nonstop threads with you all losing your shit with it.

You are a Holla Forumsyp. No surprise.

then leave if you don't like it. we're not obligated to avoid criticising idpol

no one is buying your shit Holla Forums

liberal detected

The only people that bitch about black on black crime are conservatives who want to paint blacks as inherently feral instead of acknowledging that high crime rates come from shit-tier living conditions.

It's a point exclusively made by people who want to push racist and totalitarian policies instead of socially beneficial ones that fight poverty. They want the enemy to be "muh savage niggers" and not poverty.

What percentage of violent criminals are black in the United States? Disproportionate crime rates lead to a disproportionate response.

I've collectivized this infograph

you don't belong here fam

like how blacks want the enemy to be "muh evil whitey" and not capitalism and the state?

pro-black idpol is still idpol, and thus retarded

i see that crap coming from self professed communists

i've never seen anyone here attack refugees

Consider that this is the only internet space where the focus is primarily on class. There is a very definite consensus (I would say nearing unanimity) that it should stay that way.

Its not that we don't sympathise with these movements, this a pro Panthers board 100% Hampton and Malcolm X are regular appearances here, Fanon pops up.

We hate the CIA for killing MLK and Hampton and X and others.

Just we tend to focus on how this affects the proletarian population as a whole, regardless of biological differences.

I would say most agree women should have equal political and economic rights as men. Though, its kind of taken as a matter of course rather than as the primary struggle, which is the class struggle, the 99.9 against the 0.1%

So what is the cause of the crime rates? Could it be the material conditions of society? Or are black people just inferior?

wrong flag

Facts and logic don't belong here when it hurts your feelings, I see.

No hes right this an an ACAB board

ACAB
C
A
B

Half of them were unarmed or mentally ill and another 700 non-black people died at the hands of the police in the same year. That's excluding the thousands of others who regularly get the shit kicked out of them by the police and survive, but don't receive justice because the criminal justice system tries it's hardest to absolve all law enforcement of their guilt to ensure that they continue to work hand in hand with the courts and with that the bourgeoisie. It's quite simple actually…

Go home Holla Forums and take your infographics with you

I agree that "muh evil whitey" is cancer that needs to be opposed at all times but that idea isn't the core of BLM. The core is something positive (anti police, anti incarceration activism) and we should push it more towards that positive direction instead of outright rejecting it. These are real concerns for millions of proles.

What does that mean? I only got into Marxism on May 1st.

Material conditions is the cause of the crime rates. The cops are still going to respond to the dis proportionality appropriately.

Let's face it: because many people around here are immature teens, edgy contrarians, right-wing renegades, ex-Holla Forumstards, former Gamergaters, nazbol LARPers and whatnot. These people aren't here for serious theory and discussion, they're looking for a ready-made worldview complete with thought-terminating clichés and assorted buzzwords. Why have a challenging political conversation when you can just scream "idpol" at everything that rustles their jimmies and then proceed to boldly claim intellectual victory?

I'm not saying this to disparage sound opposition to identity politics, which I enthusiastically support and believe is a necessary task for the Left. It's just that it has become nothing more than a Pavlovian reflex among many Holla Forums-dwellers as of late, and it achieves nothing but a decreased level of political debate.

Blacks commit roughly 25% of all crime in The United States annually which makes sense when you consider that they're much more likely to live in urban slums and are around 3x more likely to live in poverty than whites.

source?
under what contexts?
under what contexts?
yes, there's a national, multi-generational conspiracy to make life hard for the innocent black man. very simple

try again reddit

user it IS capitalist though.

When it comes down to it, an anonymous imageboard is one of the worst possible places to discuss political matters. Someone could jump in to the conversation and confuse both sides. Someone can argue in bad faith or just trying to troll. Someone can pretend to represent a particular ideology merely to smear it. Someone can say whatever they want without having to substantiate their views because those views won't follow them outside of that individual post. Politics on an anonymous imageboard is the equivalentine of scribbling on a bathroom stall. It's a miracle that there is ever a decent conversation to be had.

Right, I'm not saying they commit crimes because they are black, I'm saying cops kill a bigger percent of blacks than whites because blacks have a higher percentage of being violent criminals.

The Guardian's "The Counted" project does a good job of documenting the number of police killings in The United States and the circumstances surrounding them. I'd post a link to my sources, but you called them retarded so you can look them up yourself, officer.

idpol is shat upon when it's promoting language policing and basically class collaboration by pretending someone is "more revolutionary" or just "progressive" - or less so - by identity association

either take your strawman and fuck off or stop the retarded shitposting, faggot

protip: if this language triggers you, fuck off

Stop taking the bait.

Exactly this. Holla Forums may never be a place to have a serious discussion on leftist politics for these vary reasons. The overwhelming majority here have read nothing and have no plans of reading anything. Why read and have a serious discussion when you can parrot the people who have criticisms of idpol, without actually understanding their criticisms of idpol, and can just shout idpol at everything. It makes fitting in a lot easier when you can just repeat the same thing over and over again without understanding it. It's the same reason that you'll see spooks referenced 20 times a thread by people who have clearly never read Stirner or people shouting Tankie or anarkiddies at each other without having any understanding of these ideologies.

do they count nonblacks killed by police too?

Saying immigration is "capitalist" makes as much sense as saying that producing grain or drinking juice is. Believe it or not, but the movement of populations predates the 16th century.

But what of Class politics? Is class not a spook? It is a literal social construct but blood is real, physical. So are your genetic ties to nearest kin and group. Forget class consciousness. How can we ever compete with idpolers once they figure this out?

can you also tell what it is mostly caused by? any clue? wanna google it?

You lot are the worst. Please die. Here's why

BLM's central premise that cops are specifically targeting blacks for death is simply not true.

No racial bias in police shootings, study by Harvard professor shows
>washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/11/no-racial-bias-police-shootings-study-harvard-prof/

‘Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie
>washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/03/16/lesson-learned-from-the-shooting-of-michael-brown/?utm_term=.8e078105f4b9

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police … Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”
>washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/

The real racial bias: Cops more willing to shoot whites than blacks, research finds
>washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/5/police-officers-more-hesitant-to-shoot-black-suspe/

Yeah, but what does the overall crime rate for Black America have to do with the police shooting *unarmed* black people at a rate close to 5x higher than their white counterparts? The unarmed are people who're killed are people like Tamir Rice, Terence Crutcher and Water Scott who weren't committing crimes at all at the time of their deaths. Besides, Black Lives Matter isn't just about fighting police brutality, it's about putting an end to mass incarceration and "The War On Drugs" which are the primary reason for The United States having several times the number of incarcerated citizens than so called oppressive countries like The People's Republic Of China which has a population around 5x higher than The United States too. These aren't special snowflake woes we're talking about, comrade.

if you think "social construct" means "it doesn't exist" or that it can be dismissed at somehow "invalid", then you need to stop eating anarchist shit ideology.

if you believe class is a social construct, you are even more retarded than the common anarchist, which is an astonishing feat but means that you need to kill yourself asap.

...

After all I have more in common with a somebody in the same country living 600km away than with people living on the other side of the border about 30km away

Immigration is caused by many factors. You can't just narrow it down to "dude actually it's capitalism lmao" without missing the point.

so it's okay when the proletariat complains about racism, sexism, gender and other shit.. but when white workers complain about jews.. fuck them

I remember a time when we just adjusted for population, and not whatever would make the argument work.

Are you being retarded on purpose?

LOL @"adjusting for the homicide rate". So the author himself basically states himself that blacks are killed at 3.5x the rate of white by the police when one accounts for the differences in the size of the two respective populations, but then tries to make it seem normal by cherry-picking an example of a crime that blacks commit at by far the highest rate? Did all 300 black people that were killed by the police in the year that this ex-officer of the law commit murder or were they at least suspected of committing homicide? Because I seem to remember that most weren't…

Dude, stop responding to that guy, hes a troll from Holla Forums

Except it isnt. Class is about the structure of society, not your personal identity, that projecting the atomizing logic of postmodern identity politics onto class analysis.

Furthermore, you can forget about race from time to time. After all race is just your skin color, hair texture, etc. Unless your narcissistically gazing into a mirror all the time admiring your own identity and appearance (as idpollers both right and left tend to do), you will 95% of the day forget about race altogether.

This is why minorities focus on race generally more than white people: minorities have to face racism and are thus confronted with their identity, rather than white people who aren't and thus forget about their race most of the time.

On the other hand, you really can't forget about class because it informs every single aspect of your life from the house/bed you live and sleep in, what kind of transportation to get to work, what kind of jobs and working conditions, what kind of food you eat, even to a certain extent your romantic prospects. You can forget about race (unless your a minority whos being hassled by racist assholes), but you can never forget about class because its literally the experience you have to live every day

This. The Guardian documents these cases on a regular basis and the majority of those killed regardless of race aren't wanted for murder or manslaughter. Talk about painting people with the same brush…

I want to give you a medal

...

Bitching about nationalist Jews is okay, considering the left has been doing that for decades, the problem is with certain fellows who want to indiscriminately turn every Schlomo into a soap

Worth keeping in mind that like black power, the gay liberation movement was born from and for gay commies, it's been recently appropriated by liberals but that shouldn't obfuscate the radical history

...

or maybe white gays achieved the liberation they wanted and then the jews of the gay community saw an opportunity to make shekels and took control of the movement

get off your high horse, you complain about idpol then go on about how its all about white people.

...

lol well that solves everything

places researched…
see chart

makes ya think

Some people itt:
- redditards who don't understand what idpol does to a group of people, holding on to their spooks

- cointelpro trying to divide us

Look, idpol puts a label on every single person, it divides us into groups. Ofcourse we see men, women, blacks, whites, asians, homosexuals and whatever as equals, but we don't put our focus on it because it's bad for social cohesion and thus our movement.

So idpol tards are actually doing more damage than good, that's why Holla Forums gets triggered. We focus on similarities rather than differences. Just talk about the problem, not the consequences.

If you still don't get it now: gtfo of my Holla Forums

Don't change comrades, don't let the idpol cancer get to us

Some of those retards:

If you don't think the capitalist exploitation of the developing world is the main driver of modern immigration then you're an idiot.

this is the result of idpol. the only people that are not allowed to have an identity are white people. you on Holla Forums are too afraid of it too, you are afraid to be white. you really think the majority of blacks or mexicans will want you to lead their revolution? you could help them, but then you would become a minority, and then a minority of theirs will want you gone.

...

Not addressing or outright dismissing the unique struggles of, let's say, black americans as idpol is just as divisive to the working class as solely focusing on identity.

Have your identity, comrade. Just don't expect everyone to identify as Nazbol and call for workers worldwide to unite with the exception of anyone black.

And that's probably for the best seeing as how retarded racial identitarianism is anyway

Were reaching spook levels that shouldnt even be possible

*THANK. YOU.*

What part of Holla Forums doesn't agree with idpol don't you get? We are against BLL, feminazis, sjw's and all that bullshit. So guess what, we are also against 'white identity'.

You're a part of the idpol problem and you're actually retarded, congrats.

What's with people posting "spook" and images of that anime guy with glasses all the time? Red pill me, comrade.

It's Max Stirner.

spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secG6.html

fuck off newfag

its a meme, max stirner was an egoist philosopher who was sortof a proto-anarchist. He wrote a book called the ego and its own which was like an individualist anarchist thing

> Everyone I ever so slightly disagree with is COINTELPRO. No, it's not possible for people to simply have a different opinion —they just have to be a FBI shill.

I just wanna be down with the proletariat, guys!:(

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Thanks.

You guys don't get it, when these topics are discussed I'll always acknowledge racism and its injustices as a problem. But by using labels you're doing more harm than good, believe it or not.

Stop posting and lurk the fuck more.

That's true, you can also be an actual retard, like I said in the same post. So I guess you're the latter.

This cancer isn't worth my time anymore, Holla Forums should start bumplocking all idpol threads imo.

@afroplasm
I think the opposition to idpol doesn't stem from not counting the struggles of minorities in the west(at least for me), but rather figures like hillary clinton who approriate the language of anti-racism whilst simultaneously taking money from wall street, droning brown people in the middle east, etc.

Also this isn't the 1950s or 1960s, *some* people of color actually have achieved economic success and alot of those people promptly shut the door behind them on poor people of all races, and this rhetoric appeals to them because it allows them to fight the discrimination which is against them and break the 'glass ceiling', but at the same time protray left wing economics/socialism as a 'white guy ideology' and the 'true radicalism' as capitalism but without discrimination. I am against discrimination but that can't be an excuse for rich people of color to shut down anyone who criticizes the economic system.

leftypol likes plenty of black/brown movements/thinkers like the black panthers, fred hampton, franz fanon, and third world anti imperialist/national liberation movements.

I never claimed to be a Black Lives Matter activist though. I just acknowledged that their cause is noble even if the actual people fighting for it are by and by large faggots.

Anyone got that pic of a haggard looking black guy asking for food while fags in the background have a pride parade? It sums up how I feel about lumping LGBT in with the actually victimized like hetero women and ethnic minorities.

...

Don't kick people when their getting out of the pool, maybe those 'sjws' will read some more theory while their here.

Thanks, pal. I meant to save it a while ago.

I know, we call them coons, Uncle Toms and my personal favorite: "capitalist niggers". People like Michael Jordan, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, 🍀🍀🍀Ben Carson🍀🍀🍀 and every other black person who's been given a few shekels by the white elites and has effectively peace'd out on the less fortunate black people who didn't manage to make the amount of money they have. I'm just saying that racism is classism on meth. Ultimately capitalism created it, but it needs a slightly different approach if it's to be completely ended.

I'm appropriating this meme.

w e w

Then we agree, because I also acknowledge the problem and agree with what they want to acomplish: same treatment and rights.

Tho I believe this is easier to do in communism than in capitalism because of multiple factors, so I choose to go for communism first, and idpol only does damage to it.

Polite sage

Whitey here, but yeah its ridiculous. It seems like people here base their opinions of organisations on the false implications they draw from the groups name.

All good comrades should.

This is a third worldist-tier argument.

Then we agree, but im just explained why these kids are so 'triggered' its cuz of people like this chick:

twitter.com/ReignOfApril/status/857028268662378498

So a super based correct argument, got it

So you don't think non heterosexual women are oppressed?

lol that guy got btfo

Nazi threads get anchors too, and nazism is just a nasty strain of idpol in my book.
I agree we should always be open for discussions but idpol is a slippery slope comrade, it's dividing us as we speak and it saddens me.

Daily reminder: all idpol is cancer

It's actually

I don't see how this silly cherrypicking is different from Holla Forums posting some dumb picture and saying this is the future X wants.

Guys your acting like I think they actually have problems. Also in a western world are hetero women even oppressed. At time maybe, but think about it. They're living it up now.

...

Everyone who uses the terms "folks" or "yall" is an SJW. No exceptions.

these two posts are 100% correct. this board gets so wrapped up in this "idpol" boogeyman that they barely sound like leftists sometimes. There needs to be nuance. Obviously liberal idpol goes way overboard but class struggle goes hand in hand with the feminist, black and LGBT rights. If you try to completely divorce those things, you'll never accomplish anything because you alienate people from the cause.

Y'all folks need to calm down.

>>>/reddit/

Yeah, I sort of agree. Black people tired of marching for inclusion into American society along with white moderates and other people of color neither of whom are willing to go the extra mile for black empowerment are turning to cultural isolationism and rigid practice of group economics to empower black people with the wealth to not be at the mercy of racists with money and government institutions to enforce their will "legally" with since rubbing shoulders with non-violent liberals doesn't make them bulletproof or put money in their pockets. Then again that's a capitalist approach so they're essentially trying to empower themselves economically by playing the game on the white capitalists own chessboard. I mean, money itself which The I.M.F. loans at interest to the entire world is worth little more than toilet paper so why not just blow up the whole damn system instead of trying to exist within it?

not an argument

The problem that I have with BLM is organizational. The chapter in my city is pretty based and everyone it is is some flavor of Marxist and we do a lot of work in the community. But in the capitol they are all virtually blue hairs that fling shit at white people.

No two BLM chapters are the same and that is why they suck ass.

Holla Forums has a high number of so called communists who're openly racist from what I've read. They call themselves Nazbol or son such shit and want the workers worldwide to unite with the exception of those they deem inferior to them racially. That alone should tell you how communism itself isn't enough to fully end racism considering how knee-deep in it we've all become due to capitalism.

I've seen people here saying that we should tell the refugees to fuck off exactly 0 times. Holla Forums will say some fucked up shit but I've never ever seen anyone here shit on migrants. Worst I've seen is someone posting some marx or engels racist quote and even then it's 100% ironic. Sorry that you've been trolled.

t. live in a country with high immigration and any criticism of it is taboo because the only people who criticize it are racist morons. The reserve army of labor is real and the fact that most people who are in favor of mass immigration will never suffer its consequences is true.

Check the official website's manifesto. Half of the shit written in it is about intersectionslity, matriarchal villages and queer validation. While at it's core it's an anti-racist movement intersectional leeches have too much say in it.

Are you for real? Every thread on the subject is packed with such comments.

Back to Holla Forums with you, alt-retard.

honestly, the only ones who can say if hetero women or gay people or brown/black/yellow people are oppressed today are these different people themselves.

Holla Forumstards shitpost here as well

Fuck off, dickrider. Get your own username.

@afroplasm, nazbols are like a weird combination of nazism and communism, but i Think its mainly an ironic joke meme 'nazbol gang' with maybe like 1 guy who legit believes it

...

Because a lot of people here are either reactionary or misguided and (sometimes deliberately) lump in any sort of anti-racism or anti-sexism with identity politics. Obviously the sort of idpol that completely particularizes these issues and looks at them in isolation is a threat and a diversion of the socialist movement, but the idea that socialists should not engage with any sort of racial issues at all because doing so would be idpol heresy no matter what angle you do it from is retarded. Let's all be like Comrade Hampton and fight racism with solidarity, not with even more spazzing out about racial categories or denial of the fact that there is something to be opposed.

I think one of them just appropriated my username too. Maybe they're from Holla Forums…

Nazbol has no race

There's a socialist case to be made about immigration. It inherently pits sections of the working class against each other given that jobs are limited and people need them to survive. If there is already unemployment maybe more migrants is not what we need.

It's not the migrant's fault, no one should be blaming them for simply pursuing a better life. It's capitalism's fault for pitting foreign workers and domestic workers against each other in competition for jobs. And the solution to this is not national bolshevism, it's solidarity.

There's a couple of Holla Forumsyps who shitpost with the nazbol flag because some moron tried to shill nazbol to their board a few days ago.

other than that its a meme

He actually looks a lot like me, just with shorter hair.

Yugofag, you really are one of the least unreasonable faggots on this board and I kind of like you.

Thank you very much.

Maybe you don't understand. Almost all current immigration exists because of economic or safety reasons. Holla Forums in general doesn't have anything against these immigrants because it's perfectly normal they want a better life for themselves.

But it is true that cultures can clash. In a communist world immigration would decline naturally as people like to live in the places they grew up in. But yea, not if you grow up in a war or in poverty.

Different cultures would still exist, and you could choose to live in a culture you feel good in, and you would be accepted there because you want to live the same way as the community. This isn't the case for economic immigrants and refugees in our current system.

but my point was exactly that I, as a white dude, shouldn't speak for these people or determine if they are oppressed or not.

That can't be a good idea. As a Latino american you'll get some obvious biases. For instance one Latino may say they're offended Abraham Lincoln has yet to be Latino in a movie. More rational Latinos would say yo ese, that makes no fucking sense.

discord.gg/f4ZpS7q

suck me uwu !~~~

Don't feed the Holla Forumstards. Somebody copied my username and is shitposting with it to start trouble. That ain't me, keep posting what you're posting, comrade.

Don't feed the Holla Forumstards. That ain't me, that's just some troll who copied my username and is shitposting under it to try and start trouble. Keep posting what you're posting, comrade.

i'm worried enough out all the infighting as it is.

at the recent worker's day rallies showed that the revolutionary organisations were shitting on each other blaming each other 'it was the trotskyites!' ' no it was the leninists!' 'no it was maoists!' 'stupid tankies!' 'you are stalinist not true comrade that believes in true communism!' endless just endless same with ows all over again where all fell apart the moment some crazies say lol no white males.

it seems this is the fate and final goal where comrades kill each other same as always because nobody is true enough to cause and then the anarchist idiots take over when we should be shooting them along with the bourgeois.

idpol is divisive as it is and we cannot let them divide us.

what does that have to do with oppression, though? Abe Lincoln wasn't latino, so why should he be one in a movie?

Red pill me on catgirls and why they play such a seemingly important role in Ancompton.

This.

I'm not denying any of that. What I'm saying is most thread related to immigration on Holla Forums are littered with the basest of racism though occasionally cloaked in Marxist jargon.

Thanks, you get it.

All idpol is cancer and we should focus on 1 thing and one thing only to begin with: capitalism and porkies of any fucking color or taste.

the disembodied will of the category becomes just another tool of control, anyone can claim it and use it to say stupid shit. It tends to end in the hands of really self absorbed middle class people

I never see that coming from anyone else than nazi shitposters and nazbols tho, or maybe a few trolls

"not an argument" is itself, not an argument. Drink bleach.
Your dank may may strawman MS-paint comic is also not an argument, don't bitch when like is met with like.

Because we have no tolerance for things that get in the way of actual progress.

Yeah, you're still idpol. That won't change until you start seeing homeless "white" people shot by cops, or "white" people serving decades in prison for drug use, as comrades fighting the same shit.

It also won't change until you start talking about the "black" proletariat (or better yet, just the proletariat) instead of using a self-identification which applies the Barack Obamas and Eric Holders of the world as much as it does the actual proles.

Dope strawman. I do see those people as comrades who also have unique issues that need to be acknowledged and addressed. You aren't going to gain any comrades by dismissing these issues or at the very least vocally supporting meaningful reform that can improve their lives now. By all means frame it up as a class issue but you can't simply ignore it.

The evil government wants this website GONE!!!!!!!

WHATREALLYHAPPENED COM zip Website Archive

mediafire.com/file/elc3rbm8a12l9vz

I'm suggesting treating it as a class issue, not ignoring it. Because when you treat it as a race issue you ignore the people who suffer the same way from capitalism but are of a different race. And, for that matter, unintentionally convince "white" people that the problems of capitalism are "black" problems and will never happen to them.

But there are unique issues that the black community faces like longer prison sentences, heavier policing in predominantly black neighborhoods, and being killed by police at a higher rate than any other demographic in the country. Are you denying that this is happening?

I don't know if you two came here recently, if you were here before but not active, or if you read what I've been saying and thought it sounded good, but thank you Comrades for being here now.

And you fags wonder why Bookchin was more wary of MLs than lolberts.

All these are problems of degree, not of kind. The racial breakdown of police killings disproportionately effects black people because black people are disproportionately poor, because they were poor when de jure discrimination ended and social mobility in America is a lie.

Treating the way the state controls the proletariat (and the carceral state is fundamentally about control) as a "black" problem convinces "black" people to look to the "black" bourgeoisie and not their fellow proles as leaders. It also convinces proles who aren't "black" that it won't happen to them, until they learn otherwise the hard way.

This is correct but not complete, as we can't ignore the actual racism that's going on.

The fact that more black people get arrested enables racist thoughts among citizens and police, as they see it as a confirmation to the stereotype. Racist actions will follow and as a result will make black people more prone to racism against whites. The wheel of racism is in motion and keeps itself rolling.

It's no secret the state has used crack and such in black communities to make them violent and poor. And guess why, because institutionalised racism doesn't only benefit the system economically, but also ideologically: divide and conquer.

Divide the people, and you can herd them like sheep.

All idpol is cancer.

(I agree with you comrade, just adding some thoughts to your post)

Damn I forgot to sage this shit thread sorry comrades

Basically, this board is crawling with former Holla Forumsyps and robots who still hold negative, reactionary feelings towards minorities and women. It goes faaaaar beyond mere distaste for idpol.

Why do people here get so triggered when I try to tell them that National Ｓocialism is actually a good, benevolent leftist political movement? No matter how many times I try to explain the difference between the bourgeois liberal corruption of National Ｓocialism espoused by Hitler and Holla Forums and the real, academic National Ｓocialism endorsed by proper leftists like myself, I just get met with revulsion and mockery. It's so hypocritical that you whine about "evil nazis" being a distraction, but then spend all your time arguing with National Ｓocialists like myself rather than doing proper leftist activism.

Are you beginning to understand yet?

In spite of all this, they also work to facilitate honest conversations without namefagging and concern for internet points.

it's also crawling with (unwelcome) people who believe there something 'wrong' with having negative feelings towards women and minorities, because their ideology tells them that those groups are always blameless and above criticism, and that anyone who disagrees or dares to contradict this victim narrative must be a trump-shilling, breitbart-reading Holla Forumstard

oh god

Hey Nazi faggot, why are you telling me I'm unwelcome here?

case in point. next you will tell me to go back to Holla Forums

My real objection with id-pol of all kinds is that it is fundamentally unfair to treat people differently based on statistical averages of the groups they belong to through no fault of their own. I have some biases myself, but I recognize that they're a result of psychological damage which I should (in an ideal world) try to eliminate.
ALL identity politics obsesses over the differences between people. Feminism turns everything into a battle of the sexes, races, sexualities, etc. in just the same way that Holla Forums does.

My specific objection to feminism is that I belong to a genuinely oppressed minority group who are just as despised by feminists as they are by everyone else. Feminists are hypocrites of the highest order and demonstrate a complete and utter unwillingness to fight for any oppressed group unless it will earn them likes on facebook. If feminism existed 100 years ago it would have been explicitly pro-slavery and homophobic.
And yes, this applies to "academic feminism" just as much as it applies to tumblr, if not more so. Nothing genuinely socially revolutionary will ever be taught in a university classroom or published in a well respected journal. On the rare occasion something slips through, it leads to ruined careers and a swift retraction.

OP can go cry bitch tears elsewhere.

Where did this meme come from? Do you still not understand why we have what appears to be the most diverse community of pinkos on the internet? In case you don't, let me spell it our for you.

Pandering to their identities does not attract members of minority groups.

We hear this shit from every fucking liberal in the world: "We fight for the freedom of your people!" We hear it from every so-called socialist group as well. It's bullshit, and we know it is. Changing language and having a dialogue does not do shit about my rent or my paycheck or my boss or the fucking cops or the fact that bourgeois democracy is a joke.

We see what's wrong with the world. We're not fucking blind, and we don't need to be baited toward socialism with talk about how we are disproportionally affected or historically oppressed. That paternalistic bullshit is more off-putting than any of the nazbols here.

Minorities (lol spook) come here, because we see people who want to do something different for a change. People here talk about killing pigs, ending rent, and creating a world where work actually benefits the person who does it. That will actually change reality.

It did exist a hundred years ago. It was never at any time pro-slavery, but it did split with the freedmen when women's sufferage was not included in the Fifteenth Amendment.

...

I was thinking of modern feminism, but you're right that early versions of feminism existed back then. Let's have a look at their unified stance against racism:

Well given that this is you>>1636871

Also, there's SO MUCH projection happening in this post>>1636919
There is. It's feelings-based reactionary nonsense you've adopted. It's unhealthy and destroys solidarity. No one is asking you to fetishize them. Not having irrational negative feelings towards entire segments of the population /= absolving them of any and blame or worshiping them as the 'other'.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

by the way i think it's common knowledge that suffragettes were the most reactionary creatures in existence

It gets better:

jfc…

It's not really a strawman if it's exactly how people are

Read the post above yours.

Good for you. Unfortunately, there are people out there that this message resonates with. Because they don't share you life. They have wider concerns than just paying fucking rent monthly. Yeah, it's a bitch, but so is wondering if the next interaction you (or your family member) have with a cop will end in your death. The bigger aim should be addressing these real concerns, but also that it doesn't end there.

nope
i feel the exact same way about your prioritisation and glorification of minorities
doesn't that mean you're from tumblr? seeing as you walk like them, talk like them…

And they are all liberals. Why would those particular people listen to you when one of the major political parties in their home country with millions upon millions of followers, the entirity of corporate media, and all the money in the world backing them is telling them the exact same thing? What are you offering that is different apart from the kvlt edge of a red flag? They do not need you. They have Hillary Clinton.

It seems there was a common pattern of bourgeois feminist abolitionist who suddenly dropped the abolitionism when they felt they had the opportunity to further their bourgeois notion of women's right even if at the expense of the struggle against racism. I remember reading about a rift between Frederick Douglass and some suffragette who decided it was okay to backstab him by endorsing a platform that supported vote for women but still excluded blacks from politics.

Are you implying that the problems of the working class such as affording rent aren't real concerns? I really don't see why a movement can't overthrow the police as part of taking down capitalism. In fact, the police are nothing more than mercenaries for capitalists anyway, so taking them down is a necessary step along the way.

Yeah, and the problem there is that the cops do not protect and serve anyone but the bosses. Couching it as a race issue is unnecessary and obscurantist.

It should damn well start there.

Post-'68 identity politics have become weaponized by the intelligence community as a way to destroy the radical left from within. It has been a very successful campaign.

I'm not saying that at all. I think it's necessary, obviously. What I am saying is that you just gave an appeal to your self-interest, but you demand that they forget their interests. You saying "I don't want to have to pay rent" doesn't fucking mean a thing to everyone who has to already worry about that and extrajudicial cop killings.

Good comeback. Stop getting your talking points about "victim narratives" from right-wing media and maybe I'll take you seriously.

This. Third worldism is the only "identity-based" movement that is wroth a damn. Everything else is pointless.

You think that isn't every working person's interest? Do you think that is not at the heart of why the cops are killing people? You want to lead the blind masses to class consciousness, and you don't even understand it yourself.

I'm not the person you previously replied to.
Honestly everyone who doesn't live in a very rich area and drive a nice car has to worry about being murdered by the police. Blacks have it disproportionately badly, but the solution isn't to alienate half your potential supporters by framing it as a race issue. If you divide the world up into "black problems" and "white problems", you can only get half as much support for each.

It's depressing actually, idpol was the end of the line for left political power I fear. Too many see it full of out of control narcissists with racist/sexist skeletons in their closet, or funded by globalists utilizing said narcissists to lead the impressionable or young folk. Probably best to reform as a common sense party and shed the toxic democrat and antifa names and renounce the pedo left and violent thugs .

stop getting yours from slate and huffpo and maybe i'll take you seriously

This is the truth though. Feminism has been absolutely disastrous for the left over the past couple of decades. It has done more than agent provocateurs and police informants could have ever dreamed of doing.

Obviously it is in every working person's interest, but what are you doing to lead the masses to class conciousness? Because there are some people who you could be expressing solidarity with, and you're not.

Do you think supporting BLM and its aims hurts you? Do you think spreading information and understanding about how the mass incarceration system works in America actively hurts you? You're sound like the type that worships the Black Panthers on an user imageboard 40 years after the fact, but let's face it, if you lived in that era you'd probably think they were dangerous negro radicals.

holy fuck

Yes, it does. They were the ones who came out in massive support for Hillary while doing their best to sabotage Bernie's campaign. They are, at best, misguided neoliberals.

The Black Panthers were actual socialists and would have never stood for the "I'm With Her" bullshit.

Maybe if they stopped taking porky money and advocating for Black Capitalism I'll start taking BLM more seriously. They still have a serious image problem though. A more accurate description of the problem would have been Poor Lives Matter.

is that Warren Spector

Fuck that. I want to form the Violent Pedo Thug Brigarde.

Honestly the best thing the left could do is refuse to endorse any other groups, and instead simply form alliances of convenience with them while constantly repeating the basic principles we are fighting for.

If you say "we support #SomeHashtag", then you're giving #SomeHashtag power to speak on your behalf. It is much better to say "we support abolishing capitalism and eliminating the prison and military industrial complexes" and let other groups declare their support for you.

Talking about what class is and showing how it creats all the bullshit that people are so invlined to blame for everything that is wrong with the world. What the fuck are you doing? Talking about race? You are more a detriment than a help.

"Expressing solidarity?" What the fuck do you think that means? Saying that you feel their pain?

As a lolicon I'd rather work towards FALC. Artificial intelligence would provide a solution both to capitalism and pedophilia.

While the suffering of pedos may be greater (on average) per individual, it is significantly less than the total suffering caused by capitalism. An explicitly pro-pedo position would be disastrous for the left, so the needs of the many should come before the needs of the few. Anyway, lolicon advocacy would be received better coming from the clinical psychology community than from a political organization.

I don't think their (assuming they even function as a singular group) electoral politics, however misguided, diminish the very real and very good critiques of the American police state.

The Left is not an amorphous blob, we're not a hivemind.

So you're basically admitting that you have no interest in addressing race. And honestly, even saying "Poor Lives Matter" doesn't get to the heart of the matter when you have moderately wealthy white kids being shot during what's supposed to be routine traffic stops.

No it means being an adult and realizing that solidarity is a two-way street, and that I'm most likely going to be waiting til my death if I wait to support a group that shares 100% of my values. I can, however, share common ground with people and support them if we have mutual goals.

Will Misha be the pedobear of the left?

Race is a spook that undermines class solidarity. You will never resolve issues of racism under systems of exploited because it exists to keep the exploited divided and weak.

To add to that, don't denounce the pedo left. Just don't mention us. Avoid the topic like the fucking minefield that it is.

Yes, sadly there will always be idiot "leftists" who declare their support for all sorts of groups. You don't have to make the problem any worse though.

NO. STRUGGLE. but. CLASS. STRUGGLE.

DASS RAYSISS

This should have been the first and only post in the thread to be honest.

So, it's meaningless platitudes with a side of passive aggression. That is exactly what we have come to expect from people taking your position. I especially love that "two-way street" bit. It implies that minorities want something completely different from what the rest of the proletariat wants and that the muh privileged must join them in that fight in order to sway them toward joining you in your fight.

Feminism was founded in socialist thought.

Dominant feminism is the west is liberal, not socialist.

WRONG!
Feminism always had two sides.
The seamstresses that demanded equal pay in the factories.
The bourgie chicks that demanded to have property rights and vote.

The problem is, the bourgies won and now they demand "equal pay".. for CEOs.

Did you read:

Found the problem.

If you're telling them that you want your concerns met, but telling them to forget theirs, yeah it fucking applies

Even though capitalists and capitalist imperialism are behind the refugee mess, it can help the left as an opportunity, a crisis to be exploited by the left. The capitalist hope is that immigrants can be used to depress wages in developed nations, let them! let them blow the carefully crafted cover of labor aristocracy clean off! A high wage in the US created by superprofits extracted from Africa is no good, and the sooner capitalism is exposed where it is strongest for how rotten it all is, the sooner it can be toppled once and for all!

user is right, simply basing the entirety of "muh feminism" off the particularities of American history is missing a bigger picture
libcom.org/library/history-actuality-anarcha-feminism-lessons-spain-marta-iniguez-de-heredia

Welp!
I guess it never had anything to do with socialism, after all!
… Except for… Socialism is also about trying to get better working conditions, no?

Oh, I'm sorry, are minorities free from the suffering of life under capitalism?

There are no immaterial concerns that are relevant to me or anybody else. The only concerns of any relevance and injustice are material in nature, this is directly traced to capitalism. Everything else is reactionary garbage.

No. Socialism is an entirely different economic system. We don't give a shit about redistributing wealth from male CEOs to female CEOs.
Seriously, your gender bullshit just doesn't matter.

'feminism' was always somewhat of an umbrella covering people with very different ideas. Just look at the Pankhurst family, famous for their role in british suffrage campaigns. Matriarch Emmeline Pankhurst went from radical suffragete to pro war activist and imperialist Tory, her daughter Silvia became a prominent leftcom and antiwar advocate, while her daughter Adela became involved with fascism

...

False

Found your problem, again you all idpol does is obfuscate.

"Your concerns." It's not the interests of the working class. You really do have no idea what class is, do you?

You got that right.

Bookchin WAS a lolbert imo, he was a closet porky

…he says to the guys planning to overthrow the state. I love it.

Okay, I'll help fight the police, but my fight will be under an explicitly white banner. We'll use the hashtag #WhiteLivesMatter in solidarity with your #BlackLivesMatter hashtag. I'm sure now that we're helping you won't have any complaints at all…

I thought it was also about improving the conditions OF THE WORKERS until we can get there. You know.. fighting for 8 hours, or less, with a wage you can live with?

Look, this is just the same old retarded argument that has been repeated thousands of times here.

You're trying to defend modern feminism by pointing out a small number of examples of very mild leftism from historical feminism. Did you know Hitler said some vaguely leftist things in one or two of his speeches? Look, that proves National Ｓocialists are proper leftists!

True.

There's the problem: you don't get to dictate what the working class cares about. Your fellow workers are being targeted and slaughtered by the state at a disproportionate rate by the state, and you're telling them not to worry about it.

When? Where? You're not doing shit and you know it.

Unsurprising tbh

everyone's gotta wait until these revolutionaries get out of their armchairs user. caring about anything is idpol

Like poetry.

I can tell you've really studied the subject heavily…

It's relevant in the case of BLM though

AGHHHH
Just look at the people who are responding to you. One can't even green text.

FUCK OFF COINTELPRO/REDDIT.
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

that person you're responding to was an illiterate retard, so who's counting anway

Until the moderation of Holla Forums actually start giving a shit about board quality, COINTELPRO have won. There's no point even trying to discuss things here because every discussion gets derailed by race or gender.

Activism is dead in the modern age anyway. The propagandists have become too efficient at manipulating public opinion and shutting down attempts at organization. Even in closed communities infiltration is too easy. There will be no leftist revolution. The transition to communism will come about through increasing automation and culling of the working class. Feminists will make sure that the left is busy fighting over identity divisions even as the security drones are deployed to take care of the food riots. If they're lucky the last one standing will be a black woman who can raise a triumphant fist for girl power before she starves to death.

Anyone who values their life should be making plans to join the ranks of the capitalist class before it's too late. Leftism, as it exists today, is a waste of time.

You really do have no fucking clue how class works. By definition individuals sharing a certain class share certain common interests. Those interests are the basis of solidarity, not the imaginary shit that gets used to divide them.

The problem is not the "disproportionate rate." The proportions of who is being killed is not even a fucking concern. The problem is that cops working for the state are killing people. Fuck the rate at which certain identities are being targeted. People are being targeted. That's the real goddamn problem.

Yeah. Your being completely counterproductive is entirely negated by your assumption of what other anonymous people are doing online.

How about a resounding no to idpol in all shapes and forms.

My guess is that it's 2 factors: defamation by liberalism trying to incorporate it into its own ideology which changes absolutely nothing besides rearranging the current socioeconomic hierarchy (keep in mind white/ethnic supremacists/nationalists enforces the stigma of identity politics tenfold in that they just want the socioeconomic hierarchy to all share specific qualities). The other factor is .leftypol/'s siege mentality.

I speak for myself but I feel helping certain minorities isn't bad per se as I don't see it as being the same as maintaining the hierarchy, but the problem of helping only those minorities is that, since Liberals consider "helping" as "uplifting some people from minority groups into the upper classes", it's very difficult for leftist organization to partake in these activities without enforcing far-right narratives and even risk becoming no better than Liberals from within. Other than that, a bigger reason for our siege mentality is that there is evidence of 8/pol/ and 4/pol/ giving advice on how to subvert and ruin this board via identity politics (There has been at least 3 screenshots of such advice that were circulated on this board in the past, but they are on my old PC and I can find only one of those screencaps). It's a very unfortunate, but necessary reaction against Holla Forums bullshit but from the way it looks some people may have forgotten why they have the siege mentality in the first place. It's some real "Animal Farm"-shit

I most definitely have my grievances with things like bourgeoisie feminism, it's a very valid issue when you live in a capitalist society even the most well-intentioned ideas can be transformed into superficial social commodities; however, I still don't think I've seen anything quite as cancerous from left-wing identity politics as what the right-wing as adopted in the last few years. People just need to learn how to present their ideas better and avoid the cringeshit.

We should have a sticky with idpol related reading material and infographs. We should also anchor threads that clearly haven't read the FAQ. This board is doomed otherwise.

Look, having a discussion on issues of race and gender alongside class from a socialist perspective is not some sort of capitalist plot. These are important topics, and have historically been to communists and anarchists all over. I understand the fear of liberalism, but that's the common enemy here, and fighting liberalism doesn't mean we can't discuss problems with capitalism other than class.

We have discussions about it plenty, even in this thread. We just don't come to conclusions you (or other identitarians) find palatable.

Despook yourself.