Why is it that trans queer fags are the most annoying and obnoxious of all the identity groups...

Why is it that trans queer fags are the most annoying and obnoxious of all the identity groups? Seriously all they seem to do nothing but whine and scream, while demanding our solidarity when they contribute nothing to leftist causes. Hell all they do is turn people away.

Can we gulag these people?

Trans people are the only true revolutionaries in the first world. Unfortunately their struggle is only tangentially related to the class struggle. Still I admire their petty first world activism regardless.

They're not. The furries are. Then it's the feminists.

To be honest on an individual level most trans people I've met have been really nice. The reputation they seem to get on chan sites seems to get more than a bit exaggerated to me.

A lot of them are giga liberals though.

Why is that you fuckers are obsessed with things that are annoying and can't talk about anything else ever?

Notice how they all talk in this exact Tumblr tone?

...

Not my comrade

I'm a left com but Stalin is badass.

good catch.

these idpol pieces of shit are the main source of division among us all. let them have their LGBTQIAP+ orgies where OP suggested, in the fucking gulag. they're keeping the most important people from truly joining our cause.

Maybe its because they are mentally ill and all the hormone drugs they take makes them even more crazy than they already were to begin with.

Lolbertards were right about freedom of discrimination and bullying, prove me wrong.

The complaints of LGBT people should be disregarded. No, they shouldn't be gulaged unless they ask for it. Interfering with the revolution or our causes for example. The gays are just people with a paraphilia. We can't keep caving into the gays every demands because then soon people that liked being choked a little during sex will start calling themselves marginalized. From a socialist perspective LGBT identity needs to be ignored entirely because it's far important to accept actual identities like poor whites, non-whites, foreign workers, and religious minorities.

Your problem right there.
Queer doesn't even exists. It's made up by people that want to be part of the group, but are not gay.

The thing about that is race, nationality and religion are just as much identities that ought to be ignored within socialism as sexuality is. But we're not living in socialism, we're living in capitalist society which does indeed marginalize these demographics in many ways.

Even if we consider distinctions unimportant as socialists the capitalist system does no such thing. It's important to recognize the ways in which vulnerable groups are marginalized so that we can address them. Whether it is flash in the pan homophobic violence or brutal systematic racism. Whilst it's not acceptable to allow certain minorities (like LGBT+) to absolutely dominate all discussion, it's important that they're able to participate in it anyway.

So, Chris-Chan.

Then kill capitalism. Boom, problem solved.

I've always found feminists to be far worse.

UNLESS it turns them into "niche" markets and makes specialized marketing for them.

You shee, not only are you but a category, in capitalism, but a category that exists only to be sold products and is to grow only so that more products can be sold to it.

Oh, and, I fail to see how "minorities" are excluded from discussions, unless it's "an expert panel on fox news" or something.

Precisely.

But how can we kill capitalism unless we unite all sections of the working class and help them realize that capitalism is the culprit behind their marginalization? Thus is the importance of understanding the grievances of marginalized groups and letting them know how socialism would benefit them.

Be honest OP, have you even interacted with any of these people in real life? Or is your outrage at them purely from browsing the internet actively looking for things tangentially related to get all fucking flustered about instead of something more important?

as long as you're gulaging them for being liberals and not for being trans.
you talk to trans comrades on here every day

FUCK
forgot remove shitposting flag

Fuck, his life just keeps getting sadder and sadder.

Gays aren't marginalized. They're a distractions is what I was saying. Death to capitalist first as always. However the left needs to be wary of psy ops like, you know the gays.

My school has the biggest pride club in the city, literally everyone hates these people.

I know, but what you must understand is how that is just another form of marginalization. Women are the ur-example of this, they have massive sections of capitalist enterprise entirely dedicated to them. But the fact that this is happening is just another kind of marginalization in the classic capitalist way of pigeonholing people into marketable demographics with insecurities and socialized roles that can be exploited for profit. Evident in how heavily household products, make-up and plain old consumerism in the form of "shopping" as a recreational activity is marketed to women. This is just capitalism taking advantages of the marginalization it creates itself.

I would also suggest that in the case of LGBT the marketing is more aimed at liberals than at real LGBT people. As support for gay people has also been commodified.


Have you forgotten that this cunt is vice president? Systematic homophobia is very real and a huge amount of people (especially old people who happen to dominate elections) haven't just cleansed themselves of all the homophobia that permeated society in their life time.

The idea that "Oh they can get married (in some places) now that means they aren't marginalized" is just as ignorant as liberals acting as if black people haven't been marginalized since the end of segregation.

Get that idealist shit out of here. For one, pandering to everyone's imaginary self-images does absolutely nothing to focus their attention on class issues. That has never worked. Not only that, it is precisely why antifaggots spend their time flailing at Trump and the patriarchy instead of doing anything useful. For another, the working class will only act in unison when their shared interests are clear. That means that they are able to both recognize the real cause of their real problems and to see their imaginary problems for what they are. That's class consciousness. Finally, the entire fucking working class is never going to unite. The revolution is not going to be one big, unified operation, and we would be fools to wait for it to be such.

Have you forgotten that bourgeois politics is just spectacle?

trannies are almost universally spooked and classcucked. not me though. im one of the good ones

I KNEW THE TIME FOR MY LATEST MEME WOULD COME!

Okay so the difference between me and that cunt is I'm not a homophobe. That nigga is a so fucked up he calls his wife mother and due to his marriage and religious spooks he doesn't eat alone with other women. Pence would say different but they're few more GAY than him.

I'm a former liberal I never believed what you accuse liberals of.

We really should have just listened to Uncle Joe. Khrushchev ruined everything with his moderation. Mao was talking about the inevitable war for Communism and that cock was busy paving the way for this gender identity group getting in the way of true equality.

They're only really more obnoxious and annoying because their particular identity victimhood category has only recently begun it's conversion into a marketing demographic and any successes and press it's receiving are very new to them, so there is a lot of zeal and a lot of other people (aspiring/career liberal activists, kids going through their early 20s identity crises, etc) jumping in to score points and be part of a clique.

It's just the same reason why newly born again Christians are more obnoxious than than a 50 year old lapsed Catholic-by-birth. Once they settle in, have a solid set of products targeted to them and a few more high profile CEOs/celebs/politicians to make them feel represented, they'll just become part of the identity background noise and some other even smaller, even more particular marginalised identity will take their place.

More like, tried to fix what Stalin ruined, but the upper party didn't let him.

...

You forgot the creation of a nomenklatura that does not allow for socialism to take place and state capitalism becomes the status quo.

I fully agree. The revolution needs to be organized and co-ordinated by a vanguard of professional revolutionaries.

But that vanguard cannot consist of people with no regard for vulnerable sections of the working class. Those are the kind of people that poison the discussion and will end up alienating workers rather than educating them. If you're truly interested in a practical, pragmatic approach to revolution you need to be willing to listen and understand the grievances of workers from all walks of life - maybe not even necessarily agree with them but just be willing to discuss it. Locking them out of the discussion of them all together is how queer-anarchists are made.

Not to mention it IS a class issue. Homosexual people from working class backgrounds are the ones that have to put up with the brunt of the homophobia. And this antagonism between straight people and gay people is classic porky divide and conquer - you cannot overcome this by banning all discussion you must overcome this with solidarity.


I'm not saying anyone here is homophobic like Mike Pence. I'm just using him as an example of homophobia in our society.

I'm not saying anyone here believes that either. But lots of liberals do.

This is why you Khrushchev fanboys will never be successful. Stalin knew the consolidation of power was important to establishing a true workers party in the long run down the road. He put an end to the constant scheming that harmed Lenin's early Soviet Union. If Khrushchev hadn't begun to undo his work we would have see the seeds of real Communism by now.

We would have seen the seeds of real Communism the people rising against the Party far earlier than 1980s.

See. What I was arguing is homophobia doesn't necessarily exist because as far as I'm concerned being LGBT is paraphilia thus LGBT doesn't exist.

You could be right I suppose but that's totally alien to me. Then again I still don't get why people on here act like liberals are more dangerous to our goals here than conservatives and the like.

You would know you retarded tumblrfaggot

100% correct.
Furries belong against the wall.


I'm almost looking forward to the upcoming radio silence, once their debts catch up to them.

I agree. LGBT as a meaningful distinction is imagined - but the capitalist system does not treat it as such. Just as race, gender, religion and so forth are unimportant in reality this does not do anything to help our system treating people as if it were. Race for instance, being a relatively unscientific concept, does not do anything to help all the black people getting killed by the police. The justification for the discrimination being imagined does not make the discrimination itself any less real.

cute

First, who said anything about a vanguard? Second, sensitive leadership during a revolution is the last thing that anyone needs. I'll take a bastard like Lenin over some bleeding heart any day, and I'll bet that anyone willing to pick up a rifle would want the same.


They do not need to be "educated." People can read on their own. All they need is a little clarification on the shit they see and endure every day.


"Discussion?" What exactly are we discussing? This is not a support group. We're not here to share our feelings and talk about our life experiences. The discussion is about how the working class will sieze control of the means of production.


Fuck no, it isn't. The fact that people who are in a given class have certain identities does not make those identities class issues. How do people even make that absurd logic leap? A lot of working class people watch football. That does not make Manchester United vs. Liverpool a class issue.

Get this: It Is.

I've never understood Holla Forumss r9k-tier bitterness, and resentment towards people who don't subscribe to gender binary assigned norms. You basically mirror a Holla Forums type argument, but replace "dęgeneracy", with "idpol". If anything this just yet another facet of your autism, and why liberals have far surpassed you in terms of popularity. Go ahead and try to give a rebuttal, I bet you can't. Enjoy stewing in your own shitty resentments.

Too obvious.

Taking a break from having nazis slobber all over you?

trannies get the same treatment as everyone else. don't be an idiot or fuck off. seems simple.
This however, is just bait.

enabling peoples spookery isn't good for trans people

FUCK YOU BITCH

Being an American and poster/reader here it's become apparent our liberals are just very cleverly disguised centrist. For all our sakes I hope it's not like that in other countries.

so much for the tolerant left

Hard truths>Happy identity politics

Well, I did. If we're going to discuss revolution I thought it would be important to make my position clear.

And, mate, Lenin is the OG bleeding heart. Following the 1917 revolution the sweeping reforms to address the systematic violence against women, homosexuals, ethnic minorities and all other marginalized groups that are disadvantaged for reasons besides class are a testament to this. Even if Stalin stained his memory by repealing them.

I do not agree. In this system the truth about socialism and capitalism is deliberately obscured at all times all throughout life. Many people do indeed need some guidance if they're ever going to see beyond the veil of ideology that's been constructed around them.

This is especially true for people who work full time and/or have dependants that simply do not have the time to sit around reading theory all day. Educating the proletariat is one of the most important things anyone with any hopes for revolution can do.

If that is so important to you maybe you should stop debating with me on the internet about identity politics and start doing that instead.

But maybe idealistic ideological purity is not as important to you as you're letting on.

Well when people of a certain identity are subject to marginalization because of their identity but almost exclusively within a specific class whilst other people of that identity within another class are spared it's no leap to conclude that this is actually a class issue. For instance I don't think Mark Zuckerberg has to worry about antisemitism but that may not be the same for an ultra-orthodox Jew living in poverty.

Oh, but it is.

t. Holla Forumsyp

The real left never was tolerant.

When will this meme die?

t. AnCom scum.
Feel free to enlighten us on how you can have socialism with no state.

First they came for the furfags, and I didn't speak out –
because I was not a furfag.
Then they came for the feminists, and I didn't speak out –
because I was not a feminist.
Then they came for the trans queer theory activists, and I didn't speak out –
because I was not a trans queer theory activist.
Then they came for the weeaboos, and I didn't speak out –
because I was not a weeaboo.
Then they came for the lifestylists, and I didn't speak out –
because I was not a lifestylist.
Then they came for the pseudo-leftists, and I didn't speak out –
because I was not a pseudo-leftist
Then they came for the capitalists – and there was nobody left to speak for me.

Open a history book ya fat fuckin' cunt.

I'm not comparing the scale or brutality of the oppression. I'm comparing the arguments made by people who dismiss either instance.

What you did there was good.
havea screenshot.

what a surprise

You sure showed him. You AnComs have to be controlled opposition at this point. Literally all you do is harm the revolution.

Transsexuals attempt to fit in the gender roles of the gender they identify with, thus they continuously perpetuate and even strengthen them, which means they are latent reactionary fascist sinners.
Prove me wrong Holla Forums.
You can't

You're completely right

you have to go back

t. Infantile faggot

lol gottem

This guy gets it

That's a bingo.

That's actually an important reductio ad absurdum for intersectionality. Identarians reify rather than abolish identity. TERFs are internally consistent, but they can't actually liberate everyone, and so must malign trans people as agents of patriarchy. Intersectionalists purport to liberate everyone, but run into internal inconsistencies because cultural hegemony is not a one way street.

You're right. Becoming transgender inherently requires assigning value to gender roles and in some ways transgenderism can contribute to the confusion and alienation people feel due to society's expectations of gender.

However transgender people are among the victims of this alienation rather than the culprits - we must never forget that as always the bourgeoisie are the culprit.

Thank you sir

...

Terf's are the only feminists with a consistent ideology. Third wave feminists believe that gender is a social construct and that people are born with a gender identity which doesn't match their body, its totally incoherent.

Modern day feminism is just based around respecting every sexual fetish imaginable (which is basically what trans-genderism is imho.) Most trannies are good people but I genuinely believe the vast majority are just deeply confused, insecure and looking for some kind of easy solution to their alienation and non-conformance with traditional gender roles.

Have any of you ever talked to a trans person or read anything about being trans, or is this entirely from looking at helicopter memes?

yes

t. tranny

Does this explain why most MtF are most receptive to being housewives? At least that's what I see on certain boards here.

Gender IS a social construct, as it's the expression of sex in society, THUS it does not exist, OR it's M or F.

there's your problem

gee i wonder why

like literally changing their body via hormone therapy, surgery and heavy make up

it's attempting to fit into the mainstream 'androphillic' attraction standards is what i would say i assume

Not being a moralistic traditionalist is not the same thing as being a bleeding heart.


Not well. A worker can see it in action everytime he sees his paycheck gone by the time he receives it. He sees it when his dreams of social advancement fall apart. He sees it when his boss treats him like shit, and he can't quit. He sees it when the politician who sounded so promising sells him up the creek to his backers. Capitalism is not obscured. It is plainly visible. Consider what Bill Haywood said, "I have never read Marx's Capital, but I have the marks of capital all over me.


Nothing so paternalistic is necessary. People can read for the most part, and they will read when they start to see how things work.


Christ, you sound like Holla Forums. How do you even pretend that there is anything approaching ideological purity here?


Someone living in poverty is far less concerned about people calling him a kike than he is about eating and having a roof over his head. The impoverished have real problems unrelated to their identities. You are doing nothing to help the impoverished guy by fighting a linguistic battle against antisemitism.

If by "it" you mean likes on Facebook, yeah.

But for many of them they do not see it at all. This is the magic of ideology. It makes what is plainly obvious.


Have you never had a full-time shitty job before? It's extremely exhausting and for people in that situation (especially ones with dependants) they do not have the time or the energy to sit around researching socialist theory. It's ridiculous to suggest that we simply let people achieve class-consciousness on their own without any guidance especially when at this point in time fascists are more than happy to provide alienated people with some way of making sense of their situation.

On the count that you don't think we should educate workers, you don't think we should address the concerns of marginalized groups and you don't understand how divide and conquer works I must say your understanding of theory is nothing short of retarded and if I didn't know better I would say you're a Holla Forumsyp.


I'm not. I was being sarcastic


Yeah because it's not like people deciding to blame all their problems on Jews for irrational reasons ever culminated in anything more serious.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now so that's enough of this thread for me. The last word is all yours.

I really don't understand where people get this idea outside the internet.
Every trans person I've ever met has been completely nice and amiable to me. In fact I fell in love with a couple and I love them very dearly. They're both very apolitical aside from just hating republicans for obvious reasons. They mostly just want to live a normal life.

Of course they see it. They cannot help but see it. They just don't know how to frame it.


Factory, warehouse, retail, office, and military. And yet here I am.


Have you ever met somebody who became a socialist or a communist after reading volumns of theory? I haven't. No, first they pick up the ideology, and only then do they start reading. Look at this place. The number of users here has more than quadrupled since I first came here, and you can believe that a lot of them came from Holla Forums, Holla Forums, Holla Forums, or some other shit hole without having first read anything but internet arguments like this one. It's a process of discovery not education handed down from some learned wannabe professors.


The concerns of marginalized groups are the same concerns that everyone else in their class has–same causes, same enemies, same problems.


So you're on the linguistic front line against the return of the nazis, are you? Because the key to stopping them is surely telling people how bad antisemitism is.

Holla Forums is just a reskinned Holla Forums

Fucking disgraceful board

yes, they want to live a normal life, like the deaf, and in both cases we should say okay do you want this body modification to achieve that normalcy, you know, or do you prefer something else, we shouldnt you know push the idea that body modification is the only solution

t. fucking disgraceful poster

You faggots are some of the biggest perpetrators of the very idpol you claim to despise. You call it a distraction and a diversion tactic, but it's almost all this fucking board can talk about. It's so obvious that a significant portion of this board is just "converted" Holla Forumsyps who have never read a damn thing, got tired of Holla Forums and came here and started parroting shit to fit in.

I'm just a Stalinist who realizes people like you don't want equality, but a superior position.

At this point it's the best medical treatment we have for the dysphoria they feel. If counseling or therapy can help someone i think that's great but from what I've seen the gender dysphoria some have aren't going to go away with some therapy.

One Stalinist with an irrational hatred of trans people is hardly a majority of leftypol.

Nice try friend but my last post ITT was

My point still stands

i think, due to my own experience, it is a more difficult explanation than simply, you know, take these pills and hope you feel good in this body, and so on, i think that is why there is the statistic, you know, the 40 percent who suicide after reassignment, you know. i dont think i will discuss this any longer before it turns dogmatic

>>>Holla Forums is that way

FOR FUCKS SAKE. STOP MAKING THIS THREAD

we fight for full personal liberation. that includes being trans. we don't do it separately, we don't prioritize, we don't segregate.
everyone who says "class first" doesn't understand the problem.
anyone who says "[identity-based oppression] will still exist after socialism, so identity politics is good" doesn't understand the solution.
hating on trans, or more generally LGBTQIRSNLIIX+ is reactionary, childish and stupid.

We're being torn apart by retarded identitarians and retarded anti-identitarians. FUUUCK.
ITT: reddit vs Holla Forums


I wish we could have a nice discussion about this, without it turning into a shit hole. I believe gender expression is a social construct but gender itself is more biological (I don't mean that penis = boy, vag = girl). It's correct to separate sex and gender, also, it's correct that gender is non-binary. Gender as a social construct though, I don't think that's correct at all. So basically, what I'm saying is, gender != gender expression.

Also, I haven't read Judith Butler, but from what I understand I think that her analysis was lacking. I think she's saying that gender is "performative", to which I think she means behavior reinforces/dictates gender expression and that in turn creates identity. It's very unintelligible postmodern babble, I really don't want to read her stuff, but I would like to know what she thinks. Gender expression is in part cultural, yes, but also innate and influenced by gender and biological sex. Also, saying that biological sex is a cultural concept is obviously true and very hand wavy pseudo-science, simultaneously.

He posted with the Stalin Stache flag
It's a fairly safe assumption he's a Stalinist

Obviously Transitioning encompasses a lot more than taking estrogen and Spiro
My girlfriend went to therapy for months before she was allowed to go on HRT. And even then she was only allowed to so early because she attempted suicide due to her dysphoria beforehand. She's doing MUCH MUCH better now then before her transition and it took a lot of hard work addressing her mental health in general along with the physical transition. It took a lot of hard work confronting a lot of issues that she had not yo mention a lot of support from loved ones etc. I'm not suggesting HRT magically makes you hsppy. I'm saying that it's one of the best things we have to help ease the pain of gender dysphoria.

yes of course HRT works, i find mostly because of the change in perception of you know man/woman by others, but to suggest you changed genders is an incomplete view of the thing, you know, it's a decent tool, but without proper despooking it still eventually results in that crisis of the self

Isn't that a bit redundant?

Ah
I misunderstood you're initial point

I am willing to accept that gender is a social construct, gender perception and normatives have changed following the relations of production. However this "Post-Genderism" is also a social construct, and one that is unique to late stage capitalism, intersex people have been documented in history, but intersex is an abnormality developed in the womb, however "gender diaspora" seems wholly unique to late stage capitalism.

Lastly, while gender is cultural perception and not the strict biological sex, ever since primitive communism (observable in various primitive tribes) gender has always been bound to the two sex dichotomy, just the cultural relations of gender have changed according to the relations of production.

Marxists have always known that gender would change under communism, but post-genderism is an alien concept to Marxism, it really is phenomena of late stage capitalism. Gender relations would likely take the form of the "New Soviet Man and Woman".

As far as our image is concerned we should go back to this, not post structuralist poo poo aids penis