How can I persuade my fledgeling local socialist group to not enact diversity quotas?

inform them that identity is a spook.

Say yes and start agitating.

The strictest DSA standard I've ever seen is just for at least one non-male in the leadership. If you're getting people asking for all this super-specific shit refer them to other chapters or national, or tell them they're being racist for tokenizing.

but for real tho, actual minorities will find that shit super patronizing.

The problem in my area is that only the men seem to give a shit about lefty issues. Almost all the women are Clintonites or Republicunts. Is this a pattern anywhere else?

show them that clip from Silicon Valley

What clip from Silicon Valley.

By embracing some of the BPP's rhetoric.

youtu.be/hal7U_iNzf8

Ok.
First of all, what are the criteria for Leadership?
Are there "minority" members that cover them better than non-minority members?
If yes, what's the problem?
If no, why should they be promoted?

THE GLORY OF MATERIALISM!

I've had the same problem. I represented the socialist club in a town hall sort of thing with all the other political groups on campus. I'm a latino, the republicans, the libertarians and the democrats were all represented by white women, two of whom were named lizzy.

youtube.com/watch?v=Dek5HtNdIHY

I've never understood people that perpetuate diversity with this pants on head retarded attitude of "WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO FILL THIS AFRICAN QUOTA IN GREENLAND, THIS PLACE IS SO RACIST"

There are very few around. This is a whitey city in a whitey state where it's hard to find lefty women.

Well, then why bother?

Unless is a centraly issued quota, like they have for municipal elections here, AKA "wife, enter our party in order for us to be able to enter the election. I know you're not even gonna vote for us, but that's what the state said.."

Diversity quotas are stupid. Not only they don't get people invovled, they sometimes exclude people for not being the right gender.. hmmm….

Because one of the reactionary identarians pushing this is an egotistical virtue signaller trying really hard to impress his girlfriend.

I'm not sure that clip is convincing enough.

I mean how do the requirements even work? Like in order for a chapter to be recgonized as legitimate, you have to have at least half women and like three POC right?
So what do you do? Just go around asking POC if they want to join your socialist club because you need black socialists? seems strange

Would be convenient if it were true, but sadly everyone in this is fairly working class. Identity politics is a sickness that afflicts more than just upper class.

Show importance of merit, not identity. But if it happens, let it flow. Dump resposibilities on newcomers, dont do everything yourself. Let them fail. Tough.

I'd rather socialism and myself not be embarrassed by the cringeworthy antics of misguided identarians.

Why would you possibly want quotas when you can't even get members?

Thirsty faggots trying to impress their girlfriends.

Suggest blind voting. All candidates will submit a proposal to be read aloud at random, people will vote on those proposals that will not have names or identities attached, and the winners win. This way ideas reign, not identity.

Just kick the faggot out you idiot.

I really wish it were that simple. These drama queens have a tendency to take things down with them.

Shit that's a pretty cool idea. Wonder if I could ever get normies to sign on to it.

You've convinced me, leave it until as late as possible and let it all go to shit with more time and effort invested than now.

I doubt I can muster the needed support to eject them. Our group is very new and that would just invite trouble. I think it may already be too late.

Just tell them straight that forced diversity kills movements, you never know it might work.

Gonna need a more articulate argument than that. Maybe some real examples. Does the argument that Occupy Wall Street was ruined by this shit actually hold water or was it more to do with Obama calling in the National Guard to mop them up?

It definitely holds water, he couldn't have done that if they hadn't already lost their fight and replaced the class warriors with queer feminists

youtube.com/watch?v=W81A1kTXPa4

See also the Black Panthers, and the 60s/70s in general

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I really, really want to kill these people.

Accuse them of lifestylism.

I don't really hear her saying anything about diversity quotas or the "progressive" stack.

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I don't know what the fuck to do user. I feel so useless here. Goddamnit I fucking hate egotistical pricks. Go play some organized sports if you have an inferiority complex and stay the fuck out of politics.

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You can't because it's logical consequence of the leftist slave morality, there's always someone that's more an oppreshun than you are, so there's always someone more suited for leadership than you are.

Sanders still has a bit of street cred. Is this convincing enough?

"… we need those officials to have the guts to stand up to the oligarchy" = "Competency in group board members is more important than sex organs"???

In general, a good way to get someone to doubt something is to ask them to argue for it. Ask them what the goal is, and then ask whether _thing_ is the best way of achieving that. It is understandable that women in a political party are interested in the highest positions having quotas that increase their chances of getting there. But there are of course many more positions which are no fun: more work, not really more power. So, the result of a quota structure in the entire hierarchy of a party with a female minority is that female members are expected to do more work than male members, which can be rather off-putting for women. It's a good reason to not get involved. People being together in a place and having these sexed rules for interactions has a certain artificial feel to it, and I think the only way to avoid that while still having quotas is to directly apply it to the process of admitting members. If there are ethnic quotas, surely the reference point should be the region.

Actual transcript from what Jodi Dean literally said: "I reject the critique of representation. I think the critique of representation is confused. I think it's confused, because I think it combines two different, I think it's a, a weird active it's, it's become a weird problem that combines some theoretical problems of what are the limits of representation with political problems with real existing democracies. And eh those two have become kind of conflated so it's like theoretical limits on representation somehow are seen to be the same thing as political problems of representation.

Umm, one problem with th-the way that manifests for horizontal groups is they say they're against representation, but they act as if an individual can represent her own interests. So the individual becomes the locus of representation. There is representation, it's self-representation. That's it. If however, you accept any basic ideas of psychoanalysis, you know there is an unconscious, and that someone can never fully represent themselves. If you accept most post-modern theory-theoretical positions, you recognize that the individual is a fiction, that the individual is em em ahn entity created with all sorts of in- urr exclusion you represent its ideological structure and so this idea of self-representation doesn't make theoretical sense. But yet, horizontalists speak as if k-you know they can just say, oh critique of representation and this has a kind of political, theoretical coherence. So the first problem is, it is basically individual self-representation but that's theoretical faldada dats a mistake. Ahm, I think, ahm, the second problem is the supposition that you can have politics without division…"

Muh stronk party knows what you want. And knows it better than you, because the party knows what you want, like subconsciously, dude. Jodi Dean = Stalinism on weed.

inb4 retarded crybaby AnNil complains about MUH INFOGRAPHICS

This.
Nuit Debout managed to attract Maghrebis where I lived because they installed themselves near a ghettoized neighborhood and people could come there freely and share the difficulties they experience, so some of the inhabitants naturally went there.
If you enact quotas, not only you might lose some potential new recruits or even old members due to their skin color, which is racist in essence, but it also won't change the fact that you haven't managed to connect with non-whites on the basis of your activities.

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Do people really believe this shit?

Do people believe the overwhelming consensus from people on the ground at OWS just to upset you? Doubtful.

Is it really so mysterious that alienating the majority demographic in any given situation makes social movements fall apart? Especially when you already have every subsequent demographics, women, blacks, queers, whatever, divided up along their own identitarian lines?

dawwe that poor leaf boy, that tugs at my heart strings :'(

As proven by some anonymous chan posts?

It reads like one of these 'christian student BTFOs atheist professor'-stories. White guys are smart and hard-working, but they get sabotaged by lazy, bitchy minorities.
I'm sure there were problems with idpol, but the truth is probably more nuanced.

Why don't you tell us your experience then since apparently you're better informed than every other person that has talked about it?

Occupy would have failed even without any idpolers because consensus decision making only works in small groups where everybody knows everybody else well.

The fact that you Left Fags are talking about this shit still…means that your whole political view is FORCED. If you have to think about something - its not natural. And It won't…fucking…work.

Just like examples from the last century that you have to go on.

it is doomed. Leave them and join action front

Ha. I mean you dont even see what you did here do you?

Become trans racial and transexual and fill the quotas yourself.

I always see what I did there…. . . . .

1) Leave that group and never look back.

2) Form a new group.

3) Ensure that this new group is non-democratic, so that such horrid people can never gain any power.

Like magic, you no longer have to worry about idpol.
You simply had to get rid of the core problem, democracy.

Do a secret ballot among the people who would benefit from the quotas to see if they think they need it.

Would that include enacting white quotas?

That sounds more like conjecture from someone who wasn't there.
Which particular OWS protest did you attend and what were your experiences there?

This is the proper answer. Leave them to revel in their own self-sabotage.

This is the Trotskyist approved answer

There you go, OP.

They won't pay attention to a white guy saying that.

Then convince a minority to say it.

You have to beat them at their own game.

this

Okay, Holla Forums

10/10 if troll.
Epic.

Purge him, purge him harder than the SPD fucked socialism

I can't.

NICE LOGIC, FAGGOT!

Not with that attitude you can't. Forget your morals, if you still have them, and engage in realpolitik against him. He most likely has something that he doesn't want shown so find it, blackmail him. Don't want to do that? Utterly fucking destroy him in theory, drown that fucker in pure beautiful theory until he shuts the fuck up. Doesn't work? Get the leadership on your side, coax them in with charm, then get them to purge him. You're an autismo supremo and can't get them on your side? Well fuck guess you better just out vocal the fucker with legitimate reasons and then YOU become the vocal minority.

If it works for Stalin it can work for you. Give the fucker Hell until he submits and if he doesn't? Well an icepick can always help. But in all seriousness the Stalin approach works and why should actual socialists not use his tactics if it's for the greater good?

Because it'll make us look like backstabbing antisocials with internal problems and nobody will want to associate with us.

Tell them that doing so will turn many working-class people away. And if they alow people of all races to join then they will natrualy have diversity.

Well then let's just argue the case that he is being racist/sexist/transphobic or whatever the fucker is going for because he is belittling them by wanting them to be placed in that position due to their race/danglers and not for the merit of their loyalty/merit/theory. Also always good to throw that there is only the proletariat which you fight for, everyone is included in that thus you fight for them already.

Also mind if I ask a few questions about the party?

If they put in racial quotas form a spliter movment or use obstructionism to handycap the movemnt untill said quotas are removed.

Double down. Demand 1/7 Chinese members, 1/7 Indians, 1/2 women, etc. If you've got fast legs, demand diversity of opinions too, invite ancaps, nazis, etc to the group. And why stop there? Diversity of classes is important. Bring some capitalists to the group.
Or you can have new members self-identify as whichever race you need to fill the quota. Who are they to say the new guy who's supposedly 1/32 native isn't really native?

having gone to some occupy meetings, and being affiliated with other protest groups (in Chicago), uh, yeah I can say there wasnt much action taken and more aggressiveness.

youtube.com/watch?v=ErrD6kiCcNg

Stalin got power by counting the votes and managing the meetings, so he was able to influence shit. Not so much backstabbing (though that was a thing vis a vis Trotsky, than the left/right factionalists)

I meant more for his efforts in consolidating his hold on the party

ahh, ok. questionable (ie this isnt fighting reactionary) but SJWa are annoying. honestly, i wont care much for the quotas. just dont be too dickish about it

as long as they dont fuck it up, i dont see the problem with it.

On a more serious note, but you could actually push their bullshit to the logical extreme. You see, only having blacks, natives and w/e is too exclusive.

Your group should have one person from every country. One mexican, one israeli, one chinese from each region, one japanese, one african from each tribe, one japanese, one brazilian, and so on…

The sabotage is already being done, his group will eventually fail if you allow these people any power.

fuck off jodi deam, piece of shit

Dunno about Occupy in particular since I was out of activist politics by the time that rolled around, but honestly this is pretty close to to what I experienced in the various social cause activist groups I participated in and is part of what led me to drop out. I think a lot of people who have actually tried to participate in street level political action are probably familiar with it one way or another.

I know people reject it and ~chuckle wokely~ when you frame it glibly as "heroic smart white guy", but this is actually pretty close to what happens IME. Not because there is something special about that white guy, but precisely because there isn't. What you find is that they tend to be the ones who are way more likely to be there just because of the cause or issue that the group addresses, because there is nothing else they are allowed to be there for. They don't/can't have ethnic or gender interests to be addressed, they can't have "multiple oppressions" or whatever. "Intersectionality" and associated jargon wasn't really around yet when I was active but the behaviour was not that different than what you see associated with that school of thought now with everyone else there chasing peripheral or tangentially related interests to whatever the group explicitly exists for.

I was mostly involved in gay rights shit, so that's what I'm most familiar with. What I found very quickly in those groups is that, if you're the proverbial white male, solidarity with self-identifying feminist women, with ethnic and religious minorities and other interest groups is largely one way and the relationship is very transactional. I found that the white dudes were there with the attitude of wanting to do something for their cause, but it was very common for others to be there with the attitude of getting the group to do something for them. The arrangement is sort of like, we'll all show up and give you cred with and in return, we'll tell you what we want and you'll make it happen. The result for the groups I worked in was that all the uninteresting generic white gay men were all pushed into organiser and labourer positions, expected to do the leg work and make space for all the other interest groups ("using your muh privilege" I guess it would be called now), all the while being endlessly criticised for not doing enough to accommodate this or that subgroup or being implicitly racist/sexist or engaging in "respectability politics". And then, after some time, they either burn out and leave or are specifically pulled down because some bright spark has decided that it's not radical enough or representative enough for the group to have the boring, socially acceptable suburban two-guys-and-a-labrador in public facing positions. So you end up with the classic scenario that I saw time and time and again to the point where it became an in-joke with the other guys. where the boring white fags do the work and then self-proclaimed feminist lesbian women of color (or whatever) show up at the end to walk at the front of the march.

You can make moral judgements or drink from your white/male tears mug all you like, but the material result is that we end up with the people who have acquired the organisational skills, connections and experience (because that was their only path to being accepted in the group) burning out or being pushed out because they are unfashionable.

Decent idea.

If the guy pushing for trendy diversity is only doing that for virtue signaling, he probably hasn't really thought about the nuts and bolts of implementing it, so calmly asking some boring questions about how to do that in a formally correct and exact way can make it super-awkward for him, how to determine blackness properly with mixed-race kids etc. Go through some scenarios and ask him questions. If an all-white leadership committee of a mostly white-male party adopts a requirement that at least one person on it should be black and one should be a woman, would one black woman on the otherwise white and male committee be enough to meet that quota? How to handle multiple quotas in general when a person's identity is made of several quota-relevant things?

I live on another continent and my argument about consensus is based on very basic math and some experience with muh-consensus dorks. Suppose a group is homogenous enough that the chance that a random member agrees with the glorious party leader on some random topic is nine out of ten, and we write that like this: 0.9. So when we ask three members, we have a chance of 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 = 0.729 that they all agree. Ask seven members, and the chance of consensus becomes 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 or 0.9^7 = 0,4782969. Less then fifty percent. Ask 30, and the chance of consensus is less than 0.5 %.

While consensus-using groups are quite horrible and don't reach many decisions, they do reach decisions more often than the simplistic math suggests. What's going on is that people don't utter their honest and unfiltered opinions on what is best, rather they give in to the more stubborn folks in order to move on.

There are not real socialists if they want "diversity" quotas, leave them.

Underrated post. Probability math is a good way to demonstrate the downsides of consensus; I'm going to use an example like that from now on.

Build a gulag and send them to it

They're just retarded. To them, diversity is an in intrinsic good that must be forcibly created, rather than something that just happens.

Did occupy actually require 100% consensus?
Couldn't the police have shut it all down with literally a single undercover agent?

What a bizarrely clever observation! The thought that these people have become exploitive parasites possibly without any self awareness, simply because they lack ideological dedication to "their" organization.

Learn 'em about Stirner.

Diversity quotas are just another way to spot the narcissists. People with inflated egos or inferiority complexes are always looking for ways to signal how great they are.

Bump, before this thread gets killed by another Alacrity failure.

You can not persuade them. It is policy implemented from top. You can leave or except it.

When they tried to implement it occupy started to disintegrate. Also, diversity quotas

I unironically think there are cases where gender quotas are legitimate but just in terms of if you have a committee or decision making group or something. but if your group is tiny and you have hardly any diversity because of the size of your group then there's nothing you can do about it. you can't force people to join. I do think that a group that has diversity will be more influential and thus more effective though. you will be able to attract more members and then this will further your cause. case in point: no woman is gonna wanna join a shitty group of entirely adolescent boys.
to illustrate - imagine yourself in the reverse situation

Idiot. When you maximise individual autonomy you cut out a whole raft of other problems. Sure it can be a little slow, but fast decision making on a large scale.. tell me why this is necessary? It isn't.

Confusing post. Would you like to rephrase it?