Greenpill me on Islam leftypol. Is what the SJWs say true? Is Holla Forums right? is there a middle ground?

Israel needs Hamas to justify itself and its own security.

If they didn't have Hamas firing a mortar every now and then they couldn't justify using white phosphorous on the civilians and preventing diplomacy

I agree. You can add to this that Saudi Arabia in particular is a culprit, as it has spent tens of billions of dollars pushing its extreme Wahhabi version of Islam across the Middle East, often pushing out much milder forms of the religion in many different countries.

While the Saudis and the Sunnis differ re the Palestinians, the two groups have a common perceived enemy in Iran, so of course the United States aligns itself closely with Saudi Arabia and gives them their full support. Almost all terrorism aimed at the West comes from radical Sunni movements, but the idiotic right (pic related) sees Iran as the Great Satan because that is what their "experts" tell them.

To hopefully expand on both of your posts: isn't the reason why Islam suddenly become such a huge reactionary threat because of imperialist disruption /destruction of leftist movements in those regions, leaving an ideological power vacuum that was gleefully filled with Saudi-funded Wahhabi idpol? I'd love to know more about this if this is true

jesus fucking christ this

Holla Forums cant see this because theyre crazy german idealists who cant think in terms of material causes and just see races and countries as acting agents with intention and actions based on reason

Islam is the most class-conscious religion

This!
If only Holla Forums knew about this.

Sunni Muslims are scum and should be wiped off the face of the planet. Shia Muslims are only marginally better.

Great recent article reposted on Norman Finkelstein's site about the Palestinian "Peace Offensive". The greatest practical fear of the Israelis is that the Palestinians start acting reasonably, which would cut off American aid to them and give them no excuse to continue to steal land from them and Syria.

Hence, when the Palestinians, whether Hamas or the PLO, do everything in their power to bottle up resentment, the Israelis instigate things.

normanfinkelstein.com/2017/03/29/did-israel-thwart-another-palestinian-peace-offensive/

One thing nourishes another

That's a good question, and I can answer it only partially, because a lot of that has to do with the way you look at the world.

Until the 1980s, the resistance movement of the Palestinians to stick with what I know best was mostly secular, and often Marxist/atheist. Now, a few things were happening throughout the Middle East & the world at this time.

Muhhamed was a fucking pedophile who fucked a nine year old girl in the Quran
The fact that Muslims worship a pedophile, should be enough reason to consider it a threat and danger to society.
Everything about Islam wants them to take the world by force and destroy or enslave all non-believers. It is not a religion but a terrorist cult

Islam should be banned, it is not a matter of freedom at this point, when the whole basis of being muslim is an open terrorist threat.
You can't worship a fucking pedophile as your role model and then be allowed to be a trusted member of society

Grandpa get off the internet.

It is better, it doesn't have fucking pedophiles as role models (enough said) and doesn't teach you to kill or enslave all non-believers

And this is coming from a Pagan

Old /new/ used to understand this, more or less, and I think there are still a core of people who follow international politics in depth there, but Holla Forums is now /trump/ and as clueless as their God Emperor, who said explicitly that he didn't know the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah.

How old do you think Mary was, Republican?

Mary didn't have sex in the bible

And i'm not a republican, just a Trump supporter, so i thought the symbol was somewhat fitting

...

Yeah, that's why they call it the virgin birth

Yes, there is plenty 'middle ground' to work with in this context

First off, if you want a succint leftist model all you need to realize is that the violence that you see in majority Muslim countries is a result of the relative level of material conditions in the populace, some of the highest gini coefficients anywhere and being severely affected by resource curse (most world oil reserves are in the middle east). Of course there's also a lot of imperialist intervention and other destabilizing material factors. These are the most significant reasons for why Islam became notorious for violence and terrorism (keep in mind Christians were killing themselves and others as they were modernizing institutions too)

Regardless of what you think of Islam as a religion or even culture, genuine leftist actions that mediates the situation I described above would actually resolve the true points of concern, as well as stop the perpetual creation of refugees.

Now if you do want to consider the theological points in the situation, I would again say that there is plenty offered in Islam that could lead people to profess themselves to be followers while still participating in all of the social institutions that 'regular' people in western societies do (assuming a universalist consumer participating in the capitalist spectacle). The main things to consider is to what degree they take all of the steps of their religion, how many rehearsed beliefs their brain has created set responses from, where they got this information and through what sort of behaviour. There's plenty of stereotypes and some scary images with big circles saying that huge portions of Muslims support all sorts of patriarchal institutions which can be at odds with a more emancipated west, but these do not really provide a comprehensive understanding of what they would be like in countries where they are a small minority. Some other research conducted shows that they have relatively high amounts of negative opinions about things like women's rights and homosexuality compared to the average level, but still within range of other religious groups including Christians. There are many Muslims who have relatively innocuous beliefs but they are often neglected over the ones who are crazy and easy to caricature. You are never going to see a genuine 'reformation' because their religious structures are way different, not anything like the Protestants reforming away from Catholicism which had centralized structures and a shared knowledge set. What is considered valid sacred knowledge is mostly what is dispersed by Imams which have a large amount of variety, proliferating from absurd jihadist radicals all the way to trans-accepting liberals. I reckon that any systematic effort directed at reforming Islamic institutions should be targeted at individual Imams. The thing to realize is, the actual behaviour patterns that a Muslim is going to enact will result more from their immediate material conditions (assuming specific forms of institutions, technologies, language, etc in a western country), all it takes is merely existing here in order for them to think more similarly to us, especially if they are young and not being coerced by their family. Regardless of how much fear mongering the right does, the actual opinion surveys reflect the situation of Muslims living in western countries slowly adopting views more in line with what the majority of the society does, just like every other particular group in the population.

It means Virgin conception you nerd

Yep, it's a republican or a really good poe. Congrats

Besides, the muslim prophet having sex with a nine year old girl and saying that's okay is blatant promotion of pedophillia. There is no comparison. It would take a warped mind to read the bible and think it was promoting pedophillia. (but then again, look where I'm posting)

Actually the best post itt

The fallacy committed by the American analysis of Islam (both right as left) is that we usually view it as a separate social category from things like economy, power structures, or whatever. In actuality this is a very Protestant way of understanding a certain religion. Anyone who has actually done the work of researching the historical basis of any non-Protestant religion could tell you that for the most part, the focus on "belief" is a very specific way of interpreting religious phenomena, and that in several other traditions, some kind of individualistic metaphisic isn't really what lies behind the mindset of the religious person. For the most part, religion is inseparable from power dynamics. For example, what is currently happening with ISIS isn't really "Islamic extremism," as if ISIS is the radically logical conclusion of Islamic thought, it's actually much more simple: ISIS is a specific manifestation of power dynamics in middle eastern society based upon material struggles. This struggle takes the shape of Islam (and of course, IS Islam) because it emerged in an Islamic society. Religion as a generic category is bullshit, in reality what I think is happening is that culture manifests in obscenely unique ways across the globe, and to arbitrarily categorize one aspect of culture across the board as 'religious' is intellectually dishonest

You are a fucking retard if you think saudi arabians and syrians/palestinians are the same just because both are muslims.

shiaa muslims make up 5% of the muslim population, its not that simple, sunnis have vastly different political opinions get out of your room

Oh, so that's how that works.

At least when Anakin Skywalker was born like that, there was a good story behind it.

>>>/4chon/194114

Lmao basically nobody has sex in the quran. To put it in a way you might understand, all the shit you're screaming about incoherently is non-canon.

"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister." - the Mudshit bible

As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers..

''Narrated 'Aisha:
The prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).''

Literally none of those quotes are from the "mudshit bible". I think you might be retarded

wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an

Shill harder, faggot. Pedophillia is explicitly promoted in the Quran

I'd argue both SJWs and/pol/ are right about Islam.

It can either be a religion of violence or a religion of peace depending on how you interpret its tenets, because, as almost any religion, it's full of contradictory shit.

That being said, religions are spooky and unnecessary, Islam included. It's also one particularly awful religion, because it's very restrictive: can't eat pork, can't drink alcohol, can't enjoy secular music, can't even play musical instruments besides basic percussion (that's why all nasheed are sung a cappella), must pray five times a day, women can only expose their hands, feet and face to people who aren't their close relatives or other females, and so on.

I also find ridiculous that SJWs piously believe that there is absolutely nothing sexist at fucking all about Islam commanding women to cover their hair and almost their entire body in order to be "modest" and even try to defend the hijab as some sort of """"empowering"""" thing, when it obviously isn't, and the Islamic rules on men's clothing are way more lax.

Yep, confirmed retarded. All the shit you quoted wasn't from the quranic verse but from some various scholars heavily quoting hadith. Anyway, all religion is retarded and islam is no different. But the fact that you're so assblasted over what amounts to fanfiction that isn't even the main fanfiction of islam proves how autistic you are.

Tbh, this is a great & accurate post. The main thing I will add is that the problem of understanding Islam in a political context is not primarily some failure of Western methodology, which frankly is usually pretty sensitive and moderately sensible on issues that it can be dispassionate about, but a matter of obfuscation by the powers that be in attempting to hide their past crimes and justify future ones.

I didnt say it was from the Quran.
But you see exactly the same kind of shit explicitly in the Quran as well. Sex with nine year old girls, molesting infants, all that sick shit.
Shill harder, fag

What the fuck else did you mean by "the mudshit bible"?

I'm not shilling for shit. You think I'd be ok going to a muslim country and saying "all religion is retarded" or calling the quran "fanfiction? You just can't handle being called out on your hysteria

It's identity politics. SJWs love Muslims because they're brown and alt righters hate muslims cause they're brown

It is from the Hadith which is also important in the muslim faith
So yet another reason why you're argument is as impotent as you SJWs are

This doesn't at all describe most Islamic societies throughout history.

Islam is an ugly religion, like all Abrahamic cults are, but you can't view what life is like in contemporary Saudi Arabia as being the historical norm for Islam.

Your*

And I can quote you contradictory hadith that put aisha's age at anywhere from 9-21, and according to those same hadiths her dad was anywhere from 10 to 90 years older than her. And if you accept her age as 9 when she married then you accept that she was "an old woman who wasn't young enough to run quickly" at the ripe old age of 19. All of those hadiths are "true". The sad truth is that old islamic scholars are either lying or bad at math, and isis freaks want any excuse to molest young girls almost as bad as you want any excuse to start a holy war.

I'm not sure I buy that. But either way, that doesn't change the fact that there is still pedophillia and child molestation in the Quran itself

Lol, you have no idea how controversial hadiths are. Half that shit was invented in the last century and a half and retards still pretend they're totally legit.

Those are actual beliefs of Islam, and I was arguing that Islam is an inherently oppressive religion, very "no fun allowed", even if not all Muslims follow all of its rules. But a big part of Muslims in many countries do follow most, if not all of the rules I've mentioned.

Not really, unless you take the stretched out translations of places like "wikiislam" who I'm sure are totally neutral on the topic

Doesn't matter what you buy. People don't follow the "true" story of the religion they follow what they believe it to be. The danger of religion isn't that people will become really devout, well-read scholars of their religion. To the contrary, the danger is that people take their local preacher's word because they either can't or refuse to think for themselves. When suicide bombing was introduced to muslims in the last century, it completely flew in the face of dozens of explicit, unambiguous edicts against suicide. It didn't make a lick of difference though. People don't listen to what words on a page tell them, they listen to what people TELL THEM that words on a page tell them.

So you think I'm super pro-islam and you're fighting the good fight. I'm telling you that even if your fight is "correct", you're completely wrong about how you're going about it, and that you can study the exact words of the quran for decades and never get to the actual root of the problem.

What are some more accurate translations then?

A huge problem with leftypol is that it usually just wants to mindlessly undermine everything Holla Forums says

Yeah, but most of us don't care about what a religion says, it is how it is actually observed. This isn't a religious discussion per se, but the impact that religion has in the political realm.

That would be like criticizing Israel because Deuteronomy.

Honestly, you can talk to a dozen different muslim scholars and come to a dozen different answers. That's sort of the frustrating thing about religion, especially one that follows a version of their language so old it makes shakespeare look contemporary.

The truth is that the fundamental difference between Holla Forums and Holla Forums isn't that one thinks that islam is bad and one thinks it's good. It's that they have two completely different ideas of what religions are and how they function.

I don't see the issue?

kek'd

sage pol threads report pol threads kill poltards

Which is why most of the terrorists attack other muslims, makes perfect sense! :DDDDDDD

youtube.com/watch?v=dBZxth7SMmM