Is Basic Income a strong sign that we are in late stage capitalism?

Is Basic Income a strong sign that we are in late stage capitalism?

It seems to me a desperate attempt for the capitalist class to keep the game going.

No its not. At best you could consider it as a form of evolution for realpolitik to combat ideological cancer.

i feel like it being a thing in US is significantly because (thanks in part to Hillary and Bill Clinton, fuck those austerity-loving fuckos) there's pretty much no functioning welfare system in US (and whatever exists is wasteful and built around awful means testing, job requirements (dont have a job? ok fine, don't expect to be able to eat), and is designed to humiliate, degrade, and surveil people.

if the left in US wasn't so deeply cucked out of making bog-standard socdem-ish stuff happen (universal health care, social housing, income assistance), then your average tech right-libertarian wouldnt be talking about basic income being a Thing, honestly.

It's not happening. The system won't do rational things to preserve itself.
We aren't living in late capitalism, we're living in late humanity.

It absolutely is. It's the system's final hope of temporarily surviving.

Think about who supports basic income: liberals AND conservatives and libertarians.

Now think about what basic income is: it is essentially the government giving you, the consumer/citizen, to buy the capitalist's products.

Why do they have to do this?

Because you don't have a job.

Why don't you have a job?

Because the job you had as automated by the capitalist.

Can you see what a scam basic income is? The only reason we are even talking about is because the ruling class understands that without consumers having money they won't buy their shitty fucking products. This is why evil disgusting cunts like Elon Musk support such a system.

I'd say no and would agree with others who say it's not happening. I don't see broad mainstream support for it, but an attempt by some to get 'across the aisle' support.

But late stage capitalism is hard to pin down anyway - crudely, we can say Trump, the 2016 election, and ads on bus stops and buses to buy blood plasma are signs. That doesn't mean the system's about to crumble.

It's actually economically quite sound.
And, yeah, that's a result of the stuff you lay out. People who go an extended amount of time without work and lose money in the process are less likely to end up financially capable of taking the risks required to continue pursuing work. If you can't go out and buy shit (or go out at all - transportation is insanely expensive), you lose a lot of opportunity to network or see what's out there. There's the angle that people spending more of that money will create more work, but to me the social angle is a stronger case - it reduces the financial risk of looking for shitty dead-end work.

It's going to be needed for capitalism to survive the rampant automation that's about to kick in. Shit's going to be interesting when it doesn't happen because the biggest businesses won't accept it. We're liable to enter a new age where corporations go to war with governments and pay people to be soldiers to defend against "moochers". There are swaths of potential soldiers among the libertarians. Can you even imagine the buckets of cum when they find out they can sign up to kill poor people?

I don't think they'd be so foolish as to start open class war. They'd probably rather swallow up a tiny loss of profit than unleash the threat of revolutionary violence again.

Of course it would be the more rational thing to do. What they would probably do if the ruling class was a shadow counsil like Holla Forums is picturing the Jews.
But the capitalists all pursue their own interest, which is different that pursuning their common interest.
Each one will think having a bit of profit lost to keep the system afloat is the better than complete collapse, as long as the others are paying for it.
I'm curious about the number of UBI's proponent practicing tax evasion on a regular basis.

UBI is a tool, what we need to realize is how it's gonna be used (if at all).
Of course porky knows the workers need to have a certain degree of economic power: they've known this since Fordism. What I think is interesting about UBI is exactly what the muh work ethic retards are worried about: that people will stop working. If it happens, labour cost will increase and when it does, more people will want to work… Making it decrease again. That means that UBI will cause continue fluctuations of labor cost and inflation. Unless UBI comes with a change in the mode of production, even modest, it will cause constant crises and I think that's really what we want.
Now, of course UBI is very dangerous because the bourgeois state decides who's entitled to it: look at what's happening in a lot of EU countries with unemployment benefits, it's nightmarish. But if it's implemented the way the proponents want it, it's gonna be very interesting indeed.

Yeah, there's a good fucking reason that doesn't happen in the US.

Housing projects (you might know them as "the projects") were and are an abysmal failure and basically a blight on any community.

Fuck, even section 8 housing fucks up neighborhoods.

Gonna go against the grain and say there's nothing to do with automation, which I keep saying is not a systemic issue.

The bigest proponents and the countries more likely to implement it are already filthy rich W and N European countries, where the government has pretty much nowhere else to invest. So they might as well give people a tax rebate, change the name for Nobel Peace Prize points, and re-heat the consumer economy a little.

In a way, we should be thankful. A century ago, these same countries would be using that surplus in imperialist wars instead.

You're not wrong.
a lot of people here seem to think factory jobs are cushy now. It's not the case at all. Fact is that most western countries are delocalizing.

I agree. The whole automation boogeyman seems to be propagandist reporting by the driveling press. Did the massive disruption caused from switching from the stagecoach to the railway and personal automobile cause social unrest? Yes, but at the same time it caused multitude of industries to open up, and the population still increased in most of the Western world despite the proclamations that "those jobs will never come back". So the whole Malthusian idea should be thrown out and humans are inherently creative, at the end of the day people still need to grow the food or deliver or fix machines and cars.

This whole scaremongering over UBI sniffs of statism, and the state should be distrusted when it comes to the provision of our basic needs.

There's a pretty simple rule that governs this: Whoever makes more profit will outcompete the others. In this case that means the ones who oppose UBI will win.

Come to think of it, all those articles in the mainstream media about "AUTOMATION WILL MAKES US ALL IRRELEVANT WAAAAH" and "UBI will be the magical solution" are suspicious as fuck. I don't recall ever seeing these topics in MSM before this January, and now they're everywhere. It feels like Porkies very high up in the chain have decided to press the issue hard, and I can't see why. The simplest explanation is that it's smoke-and-mirrors to hide the continuous offshoring of industrial jobs?

Choice 1:

Choice 2

Choose one.

Fam there's been discussion (and experiments) about UBI since at least the sixties and porky's always tried to hide it.
If the cappies have half a brain they'll keep hindering it.

This shit has been all over reddit for years. Reddit is effectively one big marketing laboratory. They've most likely judged that now is the time for everyone to get on board with this.


Fam is right that there's been an uptick in discussion recently.

Please tell me more.

I only know about the $100 in Alaska so the people would say nothing about the oil trade, and some third world country who literally life off other people money.

No, I agree that it's happening, I'm very skeptical as to it being porky shilling or even going to happen in the near future.

Most famous one is an experiment in a Canadian town: everyone was given a monthly stipend. The results were favorable (people not quitting work and being healthier are the ones most pushed). I recently read a longform article about UBI that was very informative, but it's in italian.

You people are fools. Automation and UBI are exactly these tools that would bring us into a post-work society.
I'ts a fact that automation will decrease jobs and it's more effective than manual labor in the long run. That's why porkies are interested in this issue that's why they need some solution to deal with unemployment aka UBI that's given to them. Sure excessive money that they can just throw at people so the would fuck off and not bother them may be a reason too but still.
But is it bad? On the opposite it's literally going to make us more liberated from exploitation and labor. Aka more time on other stuff, especially on social issues.
Capitalism is literally digging it's own grave and people say how they want porkies not to give them back their money and work more instead of a machine doing it.
If anything we should accelerate these processes.

What I'm actually scared is that one of these rich EU countries would actually implement it but in a way of a sabotage, that would just not bother the rich and lay heavy on taxation and wellfare for low and middle classes. Or many other ways to fuck it up. At the end they would irritate the people and then back off with it, proclaiming that "UBI just doesn't work", as an example. For example people in Switzerland were just spooked with all this shit by the politicians so they in majority voted against UBI

Its a reworked 8 hour workday+ benefits. Socdemmery/Fascism for the 21st century

wew lad

it's almost like they want you to hate anything "lefty"

It's a strong sign that people can't think beyond capitalism, rather.

Wouldn't the fact that now it isn't hidden anymore suspicious?


Well that's part of my point. Why is Porky pushing it now? The only reason I can see is the aforementioned hiding of offsourcing jobs.

Well the jobs in the west are disappearing fast and never coming back. so in addition to what you say it's that they need to do something about the huge population that they couldn't employ if they tried.

Better than becoming Soylent Green, I guess.

UBI was a thing in the Rashidun caliphate so it's nothing new.

Because it's the lesser evil to them. It's either that or you not only staggering your production by not developing automatization, you also would have a shitton of angry proles without jobs and money to live .

There's a thread right now on Holla Forums where people think UBI is communism. Fucking embarassing.

In a way:
The worst thing that could be happening is that they're pushing this to move the overton window in order to make a compromise more popular, ie unemployment bux. The fact is that these benefits are administered in a horrible way: the money's way too little and it's so easy to lose it that it's essentially a hundred times worse than being employed. In Britain the employment people get training to determine whether or not a person threatening suicide is actually gonna do it or faking it. If you're looking for a reason to be suspicious, it's this one. An actual implementation of UBI would be a huge pain in the ass for the bourgies.

Agreed, but there are still reasons to be wary.
It's a little more complex than that, Switzerland has a lot of immigrant workers who don't even live there because crossing the border is so easy (I've done it. there's not even anyone on the border.). The Swiss are spooked, but there may be a lot of reasons why they voted against.

Does pol think anything is not communism? let them be morons, when they want to stop being retarded they can crack open a book or even skim a wiki article.
polite sage

how sweet of you user

I mean wasn't UBI there supposed to be for citizens only? Is it that easy for an immigrant worker to get citizenship there? I'm just curious.
Well we do indeed need to be wary considering that porkie can turn even the best intentions into shit, but still worth to try.

T-thanks, you too.

My point being that these workers who cross the borders are a problem for the country. If you live in Italy near the swiss border, working in Switzerland means that you will earn about twice the money without having to bear the higher cost of life. You don't even have to learn a new language. A lot of people do it and the Swiss populace isn't happy about it. I'm not sure how easy it is to get citizenship but the fear that they could do it is enough for some people to vote against it.

Yes. The whole welfare state is unsustainable. The UBI will just be adding on an extra layer of waste and expense. It will buy time for the capitalist system in the short term, but in the long run it will just be another blow that causes the whole rotten system to collapse upon itself.

Good. Now unfortunately, we let in millions of Muslims who give no fuck about communism but who have their own political, legal and economic ideas.

lol this will only make the Holla Forumstards hate it more

Do everyone a favor and fuck off.

won't this literally kill people who are on welfare

Nah dont think so. Basic income would spark an age of enlightenment.

how?

yeah. Imagine what happens in 10 years when trucks start getting automated and all the truck driving jobs and all the jobs that support them go up in fucking smoke.

they're still better than fucking homelessness you little shite

Yes indeed, comrade.
It's not gonna solve any problems other than pacify the working class.

If the means of production are in the hands of the capitalist class, and the capitalist class are paying taxes to support a obsolescent proletariat. Then why would they give anymore than subsistence? How would this create an age of enlightenment if the masses have no need to be educated in the eyes of the tax payers.

Yeah… if anything Porky would want to take away even consumer choice to ensure that the obsoletariat re-circulates the money to the right place.

Basic income is a more realistic and beneficial policy than anything I've seen seriously discussed on Holla Forums. You're all too busy figuring out the best way to ban porn.

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Basic income is not realistic at all. Companies and wealthy individuals will never consent to being taxed at 70% or higher (and make no mistake that is the tax rate we would need in order to finance it.)

consumption power in the west has imploded since the recession/depression in 08
Look at what's happened to retail, it's dying since no one can really afford to spend much anymore, not to mention the massive surge in debt the average consumer has

Actually I'm busy trying to make these clowns figure out that their porn ban and neet aversion is puritan bullshit.

Any time an ideology tries to sell itself as an alternative to the left or right you should be extremely suspicious.

This board is shit-tier now. It's filled with ignorant Holla Forumsyps and NEETs who have no idea what their talking about. If the already weak left is embracing reforms to capitalism that are advocated by Davos and Silicon Valley then I can safely say that the left is officially dead.

Basic income will just allow the capitalists to continuing accumulating capital while they completing cut down on their costs by getting rid of workers and once the basic income system collapses onto itself the capitalists will have accumulated so much capital and gained so much power and pacified the masses so much that they would just end up killing the working class or find a new way and permanent to keep them from reaching class consciousness.

Revolution is the only way forward. No compromises with capitalism will work and have yet to work. The welfare state is a big example of this. This whole thread is embarrassing.

There is no hope for the west at all. Not because muh colonialism or 'orcs vs humans' but the orcs are europe, its just hopeless in this way. The only forces that could help are completely neutered and subverted, else too small and weak to achieve anything even though they arent.
We can only hope other parts of the world can uncuck themselves.

it will never happen
and if it does it'll be co-opted by cunts and it'll be horrible
so either have something that will help people or have nothing

I can't help but notice you didn't mention "other worlds"

You're a retard, which is no surprise because 100% of people who complain about other people coming in their precious boards always proceed to demonstrate their retardation. Read a book.

The working class is (vaguely) starting to realise that's there's something wrong with capitalism and that automation will be disastrous, UBI is a compromise to this. Keeps Porky rich, keeps capitalism alive, and shuts the working class up. Win win for Porky and liberals eat it up since in their eyes it's a "perfect mix of capitalism and socialism"

delocalization is your enemy. if automatization becomes prevalent you're gonna see some serious shit and the pork knows it.

Sure, and they'll consent to your revolution? Who ever said we needed to ask their permission?

UBI is a Keynesian idea, and as such it will live forever in the netherrealm of Socialism With A Human Face, aka the era when transitional demands might be met with anything other than extreme violence on behalf of the state. The closest we ever came to UBI was back in the 70s, when demands for welfare were erupting everywhere.

As for the why of it not working, it disrupts superexploitation. That's it, full stop. Without social mechanisms to funnel blacks into prisons, you won't have yoir Whole Foods cheeses and other stupid shit necessary to maintain the economy UBI might prop up.

Contrary to Chomsky, the further development of caputalism requires more superexploitation, not less, and the rise of the AltRight/fascism is the only hope of this teformist shit happening.

What's this?

exploitation that is super?

In Germany big business in private thinks that it will come sooner or later anyway, they see the necissity clearly although they havent intervened into the discussion yet.. The unions though are opposed to it because it undermines them and their workerism.

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^

Very high rate of surplus value extraction.

This sounds like the worst case scenario so I have little reason to see why it wouldn't be the one that happens.

Have you heard of Nauru? It's both a tragic and funny story.

>Distribute all the mining revenue ridiculously, such that people living on a 20km island have fucking sports cars and the national airline could at peak carry over 10% of the population in seat capacity, flying all around the pacific ocean (and often cancelling flights on silly detours like buying the president cigars, or carrying family of missing seamen on search flights and ploughing them with complimentary booze.)

My one hope is that the same happens to the Arab oil monarchies.

If I wanted to pay for someone to be a lazy fuck when they got old enough, I'd be pro-life.

What qualifies as a "very high rate?" Is it based on a certain ratio to other quantities like consumer effective demand?

Seriously, the managers of the Naruan sovereign wealth fund should be the first up against the wall

Literally sticking it in a bank for interest would have been better.

porky wants UBI


this opportunism knows no bounds smh

UBI is accelerationism

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yes actually, that is the very definition of accelerationism, to accelerate its internal contradictions

UBI is a solution to one of the many capitalist crisis.
It 'solves' the automation problem, allowing goods to be sold and purchased with high unemployment.
UBI should be skipped entirely, when it becomes an issue it should clearly be time for a gift economy.

negative accelerationism only accelerates fascism

Well he sure is making a good show of not wanting it! That's porky as we know it, always not pushing for things that he wants.

Oh wait.

UBI to socialists is like the 3/5ths compromise for abolitionists