Immigration and open borders in 2017

Hey Holla Forums I'm hoping that only genuine Anarchists respond to this thread.

I'm wondering about Immigration in today's societies. Politically, it is a huge issue in European countries and the US, elections are being decided on Immigration Policy. It seems there is a slight advantage in numbers for those who want a curb on Immigration.

My problem is that while I identify as an Anarchist and idealogically I believe in no borders, no class seperation, and no state - I understand too well the concerns and fears those who are against more immigration to their countries, and I am currently leaning towards Immigration controls in order for our countries to be able to build infrfastructure and make gradual changes in the direction towards eqaulity of opportunity or social mobility.

It seems Immigration is used for the Capitalists and Shadow Governments to sow tensions and to hire cheap labour, and create an influx of workers to create a market biased towards the Employer at the expense of the Employee.

While we have such global inequality and corruption I can't see how with mass immigration (huge amounts in a short space of time, such as in Germany now as a result of wars, political upheaval, or natural disasters) make the gradual changes towards a cooperative society.

Of course, there is the change for major revolution as opposed to the gradual changes I consider realistic, and whilst I'm unsure of how the chances of such a revolution happening or succeeding would be affected by continued high levels of immigration, In highly developed western state's I worry that such a revolution would only go against the people as the shadow-elite create a more fascist and violent state in response, and reduce the chances of meaningful change as a result.

As you might be able to infer, I'm a little torn on the issue, between my principles and idealogy and what I consider realistic and likely.

I'm wondering how other genuine Anarchists think about these issues, as it's hard to find one person who is willing to actually discuss this where I live, indicating to me that Society really is in a terrible condition right now - people are scared to talk and to actually experiment with various ideas.

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youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
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Fuck off Holla Forumsyp

wow rude

Globalism is the key to get rid of nationalism. This is opportunity is too good to let it pass and side with reactionaries. I am willing to sacrifice my nation for a real brotherhood of humankind.

Completely disgenuine anarchist here, fuck you.

Most anarchists stop being anarchists when the consider those topics and come to that conclusion, because gradually building towards a society where border can be safely abolished, and border control, all need a state, thus people end up under marxism.

Not an anarchist, but as far as I can see, abolishment of borders can only occur after material conditions have been made equal, and more or less worldwide. Par of the point why the revolution must be global. Otherwise, just decreeing the borders gone would just create a host of problems like we have right now – increased exploitation of foreigners, lack of integration policies, formation of ghettoes etc. All peoples must have a reckoning with their respective elites before they can properly dissolve borders.

So it kinda seems that you agree with me, which isn't what I was looking for necessarily but I'm glad it's not just me that thinks this way.


I will not stop being an anarchist over this, and I don't think you nor anyone here can speak on behalf of most anarchists. Also, jumping to Marxism from Anarchism seems like a completely ridiculous notion as it is litterally swapping from one extreme to another. Gradually building towards a society where border can be safely abolished does not need a state. Why do you say so? It just needs people in that society. However we do not require the abolishment of the state to accomplish this. I'm splitting hairs in your argument here but I think there were quite a few unqualified statements.


I don't know what you're intentions or meaning was behind this, if it's any more than trolling. But I want to clarify that I admitted I hoped only genuine Anarchists would respond because I'm more interested in how fellow Anarchists reconcilce the same difficulty that I have. If there are people who are for a State, it doesn't help me at all. For example agrees with me but I was hoping more for other points of view. I also worded the opening of my post poorly - I was more trying to say I hope that trolls wouldnt post, people pretending to be something they are not for shits and giggles or worse.


I would sacrifice my nation for a real brotherhood of humankind too, and thanks for reminding me of that fact. However I do find it worrying, the possiblility of shadow governments combining forces for a global one-world government completely unaccountable to anyone, but I think it's inevitable and being pragmatic, I now come to consider that Globalism don't actually make it easier for tyrannical forces to lose or gain power


Yeah

If you want it viewed from a different angle, consider this. One of the points of leftist philosophy is that only the people can liberate the people. You can't create utopia by decree, and simply declaring open borders among peoples which have not yet freed themselves is like trying to force freedom from top to bottom, which isn't true freedom; as the immigration to Europe shows, that's merely the freedom of capitalists to exploit more people. It can be argued that the migrants themselves have had their life improved, but it's not saying much because their home is still in chains. So immigration in this case is, at best, mere charity.

Advocating for mass immigration before the establishment of a viable anarchist society is putting the cart before the horse. From a communalist perspective, building smaller, more tight-knit communities free of class/wages/private property is an essential building block of social change. Importing large numbers of people from great distances away undermines this objective by flooding communities with new people, making it that much more difficult to organically assimilate them. Either you limit immigration until robust social institutions capable of assimilating immigrants are in place, or you allow hierarchical bureaucracy (a state) to exist and assimilate them by force.

I understand the moral and ethical obligation leftists have towards the global proletariat, but mass immigration needs to be carefully considered, not blindly supported. I would prefer instead advocating for improving the material conditions of impoverished/underdeveloped territories themselves, so there aren't refugee crises and mass immigration waves in the first place.

no borders, no nations

Very well-made points, and I can't really criticise anything you say myself.

I am an anarchist and I am against immigration. But only because of the current conditions of how it is currently happening, why they are happening, and what it means for the future.
The reasons that liberals say they are for it are incorrect, but being factually wrong about the economics does not matter to them because they have another agenda.
The reasons conservatives are against are just racist and xenophobic, which are wrong, but they are correct about the economics of it, but of course that does not matter since Democratic Party know the actual reasons and liberal voters themselves just write it off as bigotry so they don't have to think about it.
Here is the correct economics behind how immigration actually happens. Please watch the whole video.

youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

The world is not currently anarchist. Most of the world is mostly authoritarian capitalist, to some degree or another. Now, we must ask ourselves, knowing the current conditions we are under, what can we do that will actually work? To answer this we must first understand why the global liberal eliete so very much want to push unchecked, massive immigration, only from countries in the MENA reigon, and only to western white Europe and American, and why will they not take no for an answer, especially when the economics of it show it simply does not work?
We now must ask ourselves yet another question. What are the goals of the global liberal elite? Ideally they envision a future Earth with maybe not a one-world-government, but a at the very least a one-world-governmental-association where 'countries' are not really sovereign territories anymore, but members of the association who all are locked by laws the majority votes. A random 7-11 worker in deep Appalachia would be subject to labor or economic laws introduced to the one-world-governmental-association by Singapore because both Singapore and the US would be members of the one-world-governmental-association and a majority vote would pass it. It's all about money. Such laws could be anything, like giving rape a clear definition and standardized punishment and enforcing that on all the world through the one-world-governmental-association, or something more sinister and evil than even the Trans-Pacific-Partnership, and keeping any threats against this in check with a dystopian law like The US's National Defense Authorization Act, and then of course, using the global real-time total surveillance powers of the NSA and GHCQ to track down any threats to this and utterly decimating them, lawfully, anywhere in the world, at any time. With such a powerful one-world-governmental-association the elite have a standardized and centralized focal point where the rich get to define exactly how efficiently capitalism can suck up the profits from the laborers of the planet. There is no longer a free market, on a centrally planed capitalism sucking the world dry.

Some caution is warranted.

(continued)
How does immigration fit into this? Well, there is a fist immediate benefit to it to that the rich and bankers get out of immigrants, which is both through governments of nations accepting immigrants, and personally through individual immigrants themselves, are offering them loans to start their new lives. The immigrants barely know any of the language of the nation they are entering. All they really understand is that they are getting free money in the short term, as long as they pay it back in some distant part of their future. Such a large loan it is! Suddenly the immigrant has gotten more money in a day then their whole family has had in their whole lives! Of course, anyone on Holla Forums would just look at that and say "but that's just indentured servitude, that's slavery." And that's right! Slavery is back. because all these banks suddenly have a colossal surge of profits from tiny loan payments on loans with huge interest rates. The immigrants will need to toil well into their their 70s to even think about paying them off.
That's the short term benefit for the global elite. The long term benefit for them is that ANY cultural threat to their goal of a one-world-governmental-association, whether that be Anarchism or nationalism, is destroyed by the fighting between culture and desires of the MENA immigrants clashing with the culture and desires of every country they are immigrating to. Goverments and nations that hold dear the ideals of a liberal democracy as an evil enemy of authoritarian Islamic theocratic governments, which is the only form of government acceptable to the massive majority of MENA immigrants. (But not all of them.) Naturally there is a huge right wing reaction of this in self defense. Then, in reaction to the reaction of the right wingers, the (slightly less right wing) liberals call them racist and do everything they can to silence, censor and exclude the right wingers from the process all together, making the right wing stronger and more cohesive, and even father right. With this, any hope for Anarchism, libertarian socialism, or right wing nationalism, any hope for ANY kind of movement by any group of people is gone forever because we are all too busy just trying to survive all the infighting. While we are all utterly consumed with surviving the infighting the liberal global elite have free passage to enact their goals and have even present them with more gusto, presenting themselves and their ideas to the governments of nations as being the solution to all the endless infighting they created.
They have already won. The only hope left in the world is establishing secret underground anarchist territories of peace and brotherhood.

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We should approach global Communism in a Lenninist way. That is to say, we have to have vanguard nations. Nations that will achieve communism first, and then help implement communism in other countries.

The difference is one of priority. Anarchism means eventually we will get rid of borders, but immigration harms proles in a capitalist system, not a socialist one. Therefore 2 options are readily available

or

I'm fine being anti-immigration and then welcoming it after the revolution.

The problem with taking an anti-immigration stance is that under the capitalist system it is very likely to get co-opted by reactionaries while no actual attempt is made to improve the material conditions of the poorest people in the world, furthermore it is indirectly in endorsement of nationalist ideas which enforce the barriers that exist between those doing the exploiting and those being exploited.

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OP here, was gonna reply in detail to everyone but it's really not needed. I feel like we've all proven that Anarchists aren't stupid. ;)

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Done.

not really idiot, stop fueling capitalism. Who cares if you agree with a "reactionary" from time to time.

Good thread.

Advocating tighter or looser restrictions on immigration alike under capitalism is pretty reformist honestly.

I don't agree that the only way is to create secret societies of anarchists, but we sure as hell know from history (Franco) what happens to intellectual anarchists that get a little too influential…

I believe we can shape conversation and have an influence on political thought in our respective countries as anarchists.

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The elite aren't liberals, they are fascists. Fascist Liberals, maybe. Surveillance laws are not liberal.

lol what? Yeah they are.


Aw why not though?


Yeah, I think spreading the word anonymously is a good idea.

This entire post is nonsensical

Because the liberal elite is a term used to pejoratively describe left-leaning educated people.

The world elite are not left-leaning.

And because I can think of many ways to influence change that doesnt involve moving underground.

I'm not advocating shaking signs around with "no capitalism plz" but I think we need to be vocal, and talk to people, not stick in an echochamber like Holla Forums and rot in the filth of unchallenged ideas.

That's fucking dark.

i dont know why anarchists support hostile sunni refugees over the white working class…. they really shot them selves in the foot and have pushed the white working class into proto fascist arms. For fucks sake, these people you are letting into europe are the exact same people who want to wipe ypg and the like off the planet.

Are you sure you're on the right board?