Are there actually any specific quotes from Marx and Engels that rule out the "socialism is when the government does stuff" "no troo skotzman" meme?
Like something that really smacks the ancaps/polacks down?
Specific quotes from Marx or Engels
Bentley Morris
Asher Cox
Principles of communism (Engels)
1 —
What is Communism?
Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat.
Nolan Jones
Good effort but that seems too vague. It still leaves the door too open to the interpretation "liberation of the proletariat" = "stuff the government does", especially when socdems are hanging around in the background pushing for welfare state.
Jack Carter
Take notes: Marx was an anti-work ultraleft individualist
Nolan Gonzalez
It's progress and interesting, note taken.
You could trim down for rhetorical purposes to get the jist of "Labour, so as to express themselves as individuals find themselves directly opposed to the state."
It's not exactly what I'm after. He's stating the conditions of the proletariat and why they find themselves in opposition to the "existing capitalist" state, not necessarily a future welfare state. Everyone knows communists intend to overthrow the state.
This also doesn't really say anything about the definition of socialism.
Asher Peterson
The thing is that Marx never really describes the post-revolutionary society. That's not his MO — he's not a utopian.
So the most he ever describes is the revolution itself. You can infer pretty directly that he's against the state though. For example:
In other words, when people no longer have contradictory class interests, there will no longer be need for a state. But ancaps and polacks don't have the reading comprehension to understand that dank post-Hegelian philosophy, so I don't know how effective that quote will be.
Noah Price
horseshit
Jaxson Gutierrez
I first became a socialist a few years ago when I found out what the word "socialism" really meant and it was a Trot who first explained it.
"Socialism" was the most searched word in 2015.
commondreams.org
I don't have much hope for people trying to find out what the word really means. The level of disinformation is astounding.
I would say that this confusion about the definition of the word is the primary obstacle keeping the world in chains at the current time.
If you first statement about Marx is correct, how do we know what "socialism" really means? Are we simply relying on socialists other than Marx to clear that up?
That last quote is extremely obtuse and it talks about communism not socialism.
Hudson Harris
To be more specific about definitions, I am aware that anyone can take and use the word "socialism" to their heart's content.
However, if you are trying to explain that the centrally planned "state capitalist" "deformed workers' state" nightmare of the USSR was not what Marx/Engels had in mind, you need to refer to something on hand to support it, otherwise it's just your word against theirs and they can claim "no troo skotzman".
Jaxson Campbell
And what definition would that be?
There is no difference for Marx. Try Lenin.
Isaac Jackson
...
Jason Smith
Communist Manifesto:
> 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
> 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
> 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
> 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Anti-Dühring:
marxists.catbull.com
> The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production in the first instance into state property.
First-stage Communism (what we call Socialism today) is very explicitly "when (Proletarian) government does stuff". Dictatorship of the Proletariat, remember? State withering away happens when productive forces develop to the level when division of labour no longer exists.
Evan Robinson
It's exactly what they had in mind (until decentralization of 1956). Maybe swifter, more radical processes - nationalization of kolkhozs, instead of cooperative ownership, for example.
There isn't anything. Your "Left" is dead only because you are killing it every single day.
Michael Jenkins
The part of the manifesto you quote refers to immediate demands appropriate as a first step in their specific context, not a transcendental goal of communism.
Samuel Edwards
Worker control over production.
More specifically, an economy practising worker self-management in all businesses and where distribution is democratically controlled.
This is also consistent with anarchist conceptions of socialism.
If the state controls a company, it isn't that different from capitalism for the employees, it's just another boss. This is especially true if it's manufacturing commodities.
Nolan Turner
...
Michael Wilson
Manifesto we're actually a party programme of the communist party, not what communism is.
Andrew Butler
socialism = communism = the revolutionary movement of the working class.
Here are some Engels quotes I've dug up
Levi Morales
Oh wow did you deliver. 10/10 comradefam.
That last quote is almost anarchist style foreshadowing of the USSR. Damn, where'd you find that?
Also, btw, communism and socialism can't mean the same thing or how would socialism gradually transition into communism? If you mean communism is the same general structure as socialism but under stateless superabundance, then that would kinda make sense.
Jacob Garcia
"Socialism: Utopian and Scientific"
The socialism =/= communism meme is Stalinist ideology. It does not appear anywhere in M&E. Marx does refer to a "higher" and "lower" stage of communism, but it's not two distinct modes of production.
Yeah that's a good way to put it.
Adrian Carter
oh shit leftypol btfo
Christian Ramirez
Saying that "dictatorship of the proletariat" means centralization of the MoP under a state not unlike today's bourgeois one is a socdem-level understanding of Marx. Read Luxemburg. She was a real Marxist, unlike Lenin.
marxists.org
Why do I consistently find that tankies are the ones who understand Marx the least out of those who've read him and yet are the ones who most frequently accuse "anarkiddies" of having no theory? Your ideology is literally social democracy at gunpoint.
Marx and anarchists are more similar than most realize. In fact, I'd argue that Bakunin and Lenin both misinterpreted Marx's words in the same way, hence why Bakunin's criticism of Marxism was prescient and yet Lenin wasn't a real Marxist.
There are real differences between Marx's thought and anarchism, such as anarchism avoiding confusion between state and government and Marx's thought being anti-individualist, but they're overall extremely similar.
Socialism leading into communism is a myth invented by Lenin. Socialism is communism is anarchy.
Gavin White
…
This is quite consistent with anarchist conceptions of revolution and my views. However, our tankie friend above is literally quoting from the Communist Manifesto, anarchofam.
I have heard non-tankie Marxists argue that this is not socialism but rather the "transitional phase". Assuming you don't object to this, this would imply that Luxembourg is deviating from the *sacred text* and is therefore a heretical revisionist, pouring mustard on the claim that she is a real Marxist.
Austin Young
Wrong
“Capitalism has been the first to show what mankind's activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals. It has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former exoduses of nations and crusades.”
- Karl Marx