Class is determined by your objective position in the relations of production. As such, it cannot be described as an identity because the individual has no control over it — he can't decide "not to be" a prole. He can't do away with bourgeois exploitation by wishing his status away by "identifying as" — the only way opportunity he gets to change his condition is by changing the material basis of his existence.
But isn't that the case with, say, blackness? By that I mean of course to refer not to some ahistorical racial essence but to the social condition of being black in a given society. I mean, you have no control over your blackness, which is determined by how society sees you — if you look black, you're going to be treated like a black person.
You can't decide "not to be" black, even if you're one of these "transracial" loons — because in the end, all that matters is how you are perceived and not how you feel about it. If the cop think you're a nigger and therefore trouble, he isn't going to care about how you actually identify as white because most of your forebears were from Ireland when he points the gun at your face.
In that sense, isn't being a woman or a sexual or racial minority somewhat analogous to class and therefore a status subject to politicization away from identity issues? Note that this approach doesn't in any way denies the centrality of class in social domination. It simply concedes that class is not the only social variable within that framework.
But try explaining that on a board full of pissed-off ex-gamergaters.
Hunter Sanders
No, not entirely. To deny that certain groups of people are less oppressed or as equally oppressed as all other groups is infantile and will not bring about a meaningful solution to the class struggle. The class struggle is completely dialectical and has to be reanalyzing itself in context to its society in order to bring about meaningful change to the system be it under capitalism or socialism.
Liam Thompson
Struggle ain't free. The minds of class conscious workers gotta litterd with the theory of Communism. Anite Sarkeesian AKA "Anita Shekeleesian" is #NotMyComrade. She is bourgeois liberal feminist and probably an opportunist as well :DD Worker solidarity and class struggle not identity politics and intersectionalism ok. Praise Rosa Luxemburg.
Eli Anderson
he can tho, the problem is the system makes it near impossible not only to become a bourgie but to change it in order to stop the cycle of exploitation
the individual does have control over its economic status, but everytime the individual joins with other individuals to change it, the ruling class sabotages them
the rest of your post is wrong because of this assumption
David Morris
she is perfect
Liam Brooks
You're right. Capitalists sometimes push for minority rights and whatnot because it's possible to grant these things without messing with global capitalism. But that obviously does not mean we should oppose it to the point where others may think that we are rejecting "thier struggle" in favor our "ours". We can't afford that
Bentley Bailey
What I mean by saying that a prole can't wish his condition away is not that he can't do anything about it but that he can't pretend he's not a prole when the social reality of the relations of production prove otherwise.
Juan Wood
Blacks are spooks :^)
Hunter Martinez
Identity politics is not "i'm black and get treated like shit sometimes because other people are racist" anyone with 2 working neurons can figure out that that is true.
identity politics is "i'm black and therefore owe political loyalty to people who share that characteristic regardless of other considerations" and "I'm black and therefore is the enemy regardless of other considerations"
it's a way of getting demographic groups of the working class to support and prop up capitalism via making the effort to get people who look like them or want to fuck the same gender or have the same genitals as them or whatever into the ruling class to "represent" them more important than abolishing class society and freeing everyone. Or worse, making people hostile to that idea BECAUSE it would also free their enemy tribe as well as their own.
Jeremiah Carter
I think any thing that is a threat to your life that happens to be tied to your identity is a real issue that needs to be addressed, the black prison rate and death by cop ratio is a real cause for concern for them and one I think a change in the economic system would certainly help but I don't begrudge them addressing it in other ways either.
Rapes really do happen in epidemic proportions for women and not always just in "brown countries." Again a change in the economic system would help this but I'm not against them pushing cops to process identity kits faster and educating people on the seriousness of the issue in other ways.
On the flip side I'm not against people who want to form racially/gender segregated homogeneous communities I just think there should be a trade off like they have to pay taxes but the don't get any social government benefits since they're not willing to really engage with the rest of society.
I'm not against identity issues on principle nor do I think they're completely unimportant I just don't want them to get in the way of ending capitalism or addressing world threatening environmental concerns.
Angel James
it seems to be an extremely impossible feat. not that idpol isn't taken to an extreme at times, but there are certain things that get labeled as identity politics which are really just civil rights
Luis Bell
is this meant to suggest that the nature of the opposing classes needs to evolve in order to move forward? Do you mind clarifying on this point further?
Isaiah Hall
Sounds like a terrible idea. "Peaceful, voluntary" segregation is not possible because the very principle of segregation relies on the constant threat of ethnic cleansing — physically getting rid of people through law when sufficient, through force when necessary on no other basis than their supposed affiliation with arbitrary groupings.
What if a black guy still wants to move to a "white only" area? What if a mixed baby is born in a "white only" area? What if a person living in the "white only" area is revealed to actually be part Asian? The only answer to that will be persecution, followed by resistance, itself followed by the indiscriminate use of force.
Jack Johnson
but thats not really that relevant, the reason capitalism abolished feudalism was the fact that there are a lot more oportunities for class mobility
a prole doesn't need to pretend not to be a prole because, in theory, he can stop being one
Jaxson Sullivan
wouldn't worker solidarity and class struggle just eventually become identity politics and intersectionalism?
Lincoln Lopez
Then stop getting offended over the idea people hate you because you're white, you all put yourself in the center of abuse then blame the crowd for your subsequent racial hysteria.
It is precisely white identity politics and offense that is the great hypocrisy when it comes to places like this. People who still have a need to even have emotions based on their own race.
John Jenkins
"ah ah race is a spook man it's actually not real"
t. Jewish smartass to a fellow camp inmate, 1943
Lucas Smith
I didn't say I wanted it or I'd argue for it, more that I'd be ok with some assholes trying it if they really want it. If white nationalists want an all white gated community or lesbian sepratists or la raza. I'd be ok with that within the confines of their small realm, but I wouldn't be particularly happy about it or supportive.
Grayson Jones
I disagree. I think the system makes it impossible for most people to ever be anything but proles. like, what's the lower income bracket for bougie?
Connor Cruz
Pretty much, yeah. The problem arises when the struggle manifests itself as micronationalism, or as a struggle purely within itself and part of the larger context of a society defined by institutions of hierarchy and domination
Wyatt Brooks
*not part of
Owen Baker
it does, but it still has more class mobility than feudalism
Noah King
agreed. there's one struggle, from working papers to retirement. those human strugs
Adrian Turner
No because all "cultural struggles" are the cause of class struggles; economic conditions not cultural conditions. Superstructure, etc.
Leo Moore
Meanwhile all the social bonds of community are deteriorating before our eyes. Much progress, wow
Caleb Cruz
*class struggles are the ause of cultural struggles
Chase Robinson
influence through equal subjugation?
Wyatt Robinson
yeah but lots of things make sense in theory that don't have any practical chance of becoming reality
Colton Jenkins
yeah there's definitely a place for it within reason
Aiden Johnson
It's always a porky scam to divide the proletariat against itself (read Malcolm X or Frederick Douglass) and it always works, leading me to believe the Nazis are correct when they say only homogeneous societies can be truly socialist.
Ian Jenkins
don't be idiot. this is more of a problem of the new left in burgerland then anything
Jose Richardson
capitalism does have more class mobility that feudalism, but its simply not enough, and still didn't do away with exploitation
I never implied capitalism doesn't erode social bonds dumb dumb
not that I care about spooks, and there were not many social bonds in feudalism to begin with
Luke Walker
Not every whim deserves to be accommodated by others. This concept of real estate as a fungible commodity, that anyone has an inalienable right to settle wherever they like without regard for who's there already, is liberal imperialism, and therefore discarded. People are best served by a convivial environment in which to spend their downtime or other productive time, rather than some grand project designed by some domineering bureaucrat or real estate agent using other people's lives as art material which has worked poorly for those lives every time it's been tried.
You took the brown pill. Cite or gtfo.
Thomas Cox
t. never read stirner. you implied that it was progressive, which is false when considering the truly cancerous nature of capitalism
Ian Jones
If "their" struggle does not include control over the products of their own labor and freedom from poverty and exploitation, then they are already lost to us. Seriously, if they are more worried about race than they are with their economic reality, then they are so blinded by ideology that there is no hope for them.
Alexander Bell
if you want to label whatever garbage we had in feudalism as a proper social bond be my guest, but women being put in chastity while men were sent to war, retarded chrstdom, monarchism and so on was shit
tell me more about how the feudal way of living is not a social construct pls
progress doesn't need to please you in order to be progressive, several scientific advancements happened because of the much more mobile system that is capitalism, however these are not enough, capitalism and the liberal revolutionaries behind it failed to deliver their promises of proper freedom
capitalism is by far less cancerous than feudalism, my point isn't that capitalism isn't a fucking cancer, but that its not worse than feudalism
fucking Evola-tier arguments ffs
Dominic Sullivan
At this point? Yes.
It makes more sense for whites now to not be about idpol considering the ridiculous amount of muh privileges and benefits afforded to women and blacks that do not exist for whites encoded in the law itself.
Jaxson Rodriguez
They fucked/are fucking up the schools for a reason, chief. You'll never get them to realise they're being had until you unplug, unplug, unplug
Look up Percy Julian or any other immensely successful black person. Perfect example. What's the community he came from look like? Ferguson. What's it look like after he became a billionaire? Ferguson. If he at any time had attempted to look back and say "I wanna bring some of my peoples with me" bam it would've all been washed away and he'd have been boycotted.
yeh, go to south america sometime.
Elijah King
Will someone PLEASE think of our family court effected fathers??????????
Lucas Carter
...
Brody Adams
Try NOT replying to obvious shitposting next time tripfag
Mason Campbell
This ignores that for the vast majority of people life was communal. You're point is essentially that society is somehow better without even those communal parts.
The argument that society is a spook is absolutely retarded. It ignores the basic fundamental human needs of association, and in general the interdependence that allows us to survive and thrive.
The disintegration of not only our ecology, but even the most basic of social bonds did not begin with feudalism but with capitalism.
nah famrade, you just don't know dick about history. I can recognize the injustices of a feudal society and the need for something else without making the retarded argument that capitalism, which threatens the very existence of our species, is somehow better.
Adrian Long
fug you brain
Jordan Robinson
surprise surprise, bookchinites were reactionaries all along!
yes, as such communalism was utter trash
I am not labeling this as a incorporeal spook, tho, the basic human needs of association doesn't mean that we should upkeep past forms of social interactions simply because they somehow relate to our current ideas, the whole argument behind this, is pretty much a spook
it doesn't matter if whatever shit filled village under feudalism resemblance in certain parts to communalism, there is no reason to regress to them because of this
nice fucking spook you reactionary feudalism did disintegrate ecology, remember that vast architectural projects happened under it, entire areas were demolished to make up space for villages, walls were raised in china and lakes were destroyed in mexico, mountains were turn into arable lands in chile and so on and so on
regressing to feudalism will not help ecology in any way, rather advacements in the modes of production along with anarchist policies will
lol spooks, again, the idea that the individual has certain nature of forming certain social bonds doesn't mean that previous social bonds conformed to some for of "basic reality"
0/10
capitalism does not only threatens it, but also brings up a lot more possibilities of saving it you dumb dumb, you have purposely mashed together capitalism, as in private property rights and the rule of law and the technological process that were created by the internal necessties of markets
markets have created technology that is infinitely much more capable of saving our specie than feudalism, under feudalism, we were not allowed to question biology, astronomy, economics and so on, under feudalism, we were not alowed to dissect corpes to understand things like the plague
while capitalism is on the verge of destroying our and other specie, what has been created by it is also extremely liberating, now we have the technology to erradicate plagues, to farm the land much for effiienctly without the need of pesticides, to overcome genetic defects, to naturally make much more productive plants and animals and even to prevent recover from total catastrophe like earthquakes and asteroids, nothing of this was possible under feudalism
there are absolutely zero social bonds to upkeep, it doesn't matter if they somehow conform your spooks, bookchinite
capitalism is better than feudalism, just like socialism will be better than capitalism, and just like anarchism will be better than socialism, basic diamat
Liam Brown
Congratulations retard, you just legitimized racial segregation on the grounds of "anti-imperialism". You are seemingly incapable of distinguishing settler-colonialism from a black family moving into the neighborhood.
People should have an inalienable right to settle wherever they like.
Sebastian Cruz
Pretty much. By focusing on certain groups within the working class, it inherently ignores any possible relation to class and makes it about race, sex, gender, etc. and most of the people (most, not all) pushing "black", "womens", "first nations" or whatever other group they want to use, are from the capitalist class. If a trans black homeless kid is shot, the story revolves around them being trans and black, but not around the fact they are homeless, which is why they were shot.
A few instances that come to mind that most of the problems in our society are related primarily to economic issues, but are turned into "muh race" "muh womz" are: 1. DAPL. The capitalists could care less whether or not the people most affected are white, black, indigenous or what not. I saw a story talking about how a nearby town of the area had a (I believe a pipeline) diverted, and that the story is that it was done because the town was white. This is a load of shit. I can guarantee that the main reason they did it is because it would've affected profit margins, not because the town was white. 2. Police killings While there's no doubt that white supremacists have infiltrated the police, that doesn't mean every single police officer is a white supremacist. Most, if not all, of the non-white people we've been hearing about have been from the working class. If this was purely a racial issue, we'd be hearing about black business owners and such being shot and killed by police. However, ignoring the fact that non-whites (that is, non-white skin color) have been historically treated like shit is a really stupid move to make. 3. Trumps comment about "grabbing women by the pussy." "Woman" is gender, "female" is the sexual organs one has. Anybody who says otherwise has an agenda to either a. Be an ass or b. To make the left seem batshit insane. I listened to the audio of Trumps comment, and he was effectively saying that actresses would let you grab them by the pussy so they could have a job in acting, yet a capitalist female doesn't have to worry about that.
No, because working class non-whites and non-males have vastly different worries than non-white non-male capitalists, just as working class white males have vastly different worries than white male capitalists.
Essentially, anybody who dismisses societal racism & sexism is a dumbass, but those who overplay the role of racism and sexism in various scenarios are simply attempting to keep putting fuel on racial and sexual hatred among everyone. And nearly all of our problems are rooted in the economic system. A "trailer trash" white guy is more likely to be shot and killed than a bourgeois black guy.
Cameron Carter
What a blatant strawman. Are you even trying?
Union of egoists is still a social construct. Max Stirner recognized the role of society towards shaping "will", and the fact that you don't realize that makes it clear that you've never read him. He certainly never denied his own love for other people and his own need to associate.
This idea is contingent on the absurd premise that there is nothing objective that we can say about human and how they associate, the mechanisms by which they have associated historically and the continual trend towards communal structure as the most basic institution. Your idea of the atomize human is itself a spook. Nobody is saying we should return to primitivism or turn our back on technology, only that we recognize that communal and essentially democratic institutions are the default form of human association. The "Organic" form of association. You continue this strawman of insisting that I advocate on returning to feudalism. Insisting that capitalism is not progressive =/= insisting a return to feudalism. Ecology was indeed damaged during feudalism, but that does not mean it was disintegrating. Only with capitalism do we see this sort of blatant disregard for everything all in the pursuit of profit. No u. Actually read stirner and get back to me. No, that's precisely what you're doing. I never spoke out against technology. Indeed, I see technology as a fundamental necessity for a libertarian society.
Isaac Newton was not motivated by the pursuit of profit, nor were the vast majority of historical innovators. Technology and science is a social process by which the collective humanity contributes towards it and builds on it. Read Kropotkin.
Read the rest of my post for why that's bullshit. Read Bookchin while you're at it. Here's a fairly enlightening article on the failures of historical materialism libcom.org/library/were-we-wrong-murray-bookchin
William Reyes
...
Justin Green
Class is not even the first form of domination. Should class be ignored in favor of micronationalist struggles? Of course not, but that does not mean we should reduce all forms of domination as essentially economic.
James Morgan
wtf i'm a furry now
Angel Gonzalez
I want to point out as a frenchfag that the singing is horrible
Landon Rivera
I will respond to this but from my phone user, as I am quite ried, but going to post this meme in reply to yours
Jace Gonzalez
exactly this, idpol is shit like "stupid is a slur" not "Me and my people are systematically opressed and killed by the police force" This board shouldn't be so terrified to discuss things relating to race,gender ect. You can discuss minorities without going full tumblr.
Asher Phillips
Anarchy after Leftism is to Bookchin what The German Ideology is to Stirner. Nothing but vitriolically adhominen and strawmanning as a substitute for actually understanding the other parties position. Bob Black himself has pretty much abandoned the ethical high ground that made anarchism popular and respectable in the past/first place.
Connor White
*vitriolic
Caleb Bell
but the waifus aren't
Hudson Ross
the guy he swatted was a true degenerate, like a true degenerate, not just some hippie
They had a mutual publicist that set up a meeting between the two. Bob Black didn't like the guy and decided to snitch on him because of it. His letter accuses Hogshire of being the worst human being imaginable, but as far as I'm aware the only thing to go on for 99% of what Black claims about hogshire is from said letter.
William Robinson
Why didn't he like the guy?
Juan Long
No idea honestly. I guess that's between Hogshire and Black
Jose Collins
...
Aaron Mitchell
I read it. Just because Bob Black claims something doesn't make it true. Considering the man's behavior over the years, I have absolutely no reason to trust anything he says.
Owen Perez
dat hip-sway tho
Caleb Butler
what cartoon?
Elijah Sanders
Wafku, French studio Anakama's anime adaption of its own MMORPG series.
Daniel Robinson
I'm not sure if I buy that. are you saying that our culture defines our class status?
Sebastian Nelson
ohhh okay. that makes more sense. sorry
Hunter Roberts
agreed. I'll take almost no mobility over absolutely zero mobility
Camden Lopez
well, that puts us mostly in agreement then I think
Luis Gutierrez
It's going to take a lot more education than the pseudo-intellectual crowd can muster.
Reading something like Angela Davi's "Women, Race, and Class" could help, but goddamn do we need some required education in this damn country…
Austin Rogers
considering the range of freedom and quality of life when comparing one system to the other, I'd say that the communal aspects of feudalism were kind of negated by that feudalism
Daniel Ross
/thread
Daniel Price
Yes, the conditions that different groups suffer under in capitalism varies. The precariat class of the illegal latino immigrants suffer under greater exploitation than the working class in silicon valley. The class struggle needs to learn how to adopt these contradictions inside its system and address these problems if they want to achieve communism.
Landon Ortiz
Still idpol. Might be that the idpol is justified, but it is no less idpol for it.
If you are not black, the fight for black-whatever will mean nothing to you. You might support it out of solidarity, expecting reciprocal solidarity for a different struggle in turn, but the fact remains: it will only benefit the blacks.
Unless the struggle is aimed squarely at removing false consciousness, removing dividing lines between the working class. But at that point, the black struggle is only a corollary to the class struggle.
Jack Hall
That's the Dofus animated adaptation, more lighthearted, episodic and comedic. Also it takes place a couple thousands years before Wakfu.
Benjamin Bennett
Spookposters are truly the worst
Xavier Murphy
Changing from prole to non-prole requires a change in material conditions. Changing from being a discriminated minority to a non-discriminated minority only requires that people change their minds. We can get them to change their minds through the material conditions around them. There is nothing inherent about being black that says you have to be discriminated against. Just look at Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe to see how whites can be just as oppressed because they are white.
So yes, focusing on race as a method to fix things is idpol as fuck. You cannot end racism without ending capitalism.
Leo Young
Find one way identity politics isn't tied to capitalism, and I might give a shit. Otherwise, I can't be bothered.
Daniel Ramirez
No, we cannot afford to completely ignore social issues. But changing the system that allows economic oppression will raise the floor for everyone, making those struggles less complicated.
Camden Bell
“Negrophobes exist. It is not hatred of the Negro, however, that motivates them; they lack the courage for that, or they have lost it. Hate is not inborn; it has to be constantly cultivated, to be brought into being, in conflict with more or less recognized guilt complexes. Hate demands existence and he who hates has to show his hate in appropriate actions and behavior; in a sense, he has to become hate. That is why Americans have substituted discrimination for lynching. Each to his own side of the street.” ― Frantz Fanon,
Jason Stewart
I love the one kid in that picture who's got this face on that's like "fucking come on you guys, you're making us look shitty"
Jackson Miller
post neck
Angel Gutierrez
fucking spot on
Jace Phillips
Try explaining that to women. You can't. Getting a woman to see justice is impossible. That's why they see chivalric doting as oppression instead of being spared the coal mines.
Anything women produce politically is asinine. They crave attention and demand everything in exchange for nothing. They secretly see men as disposable contemptible trash to devour. Worst of all they absolutely insist on their insane interpretation of the world.
Just try it. Try pointing out female muh privilege, which, I know, is hard to do because we've been so thoroughly indoctrinated. Same thing with the Jews. Same strategies. Conflating ideology with identity and hiding behind identity when their ideology is attacked.
Women are a waste of time when considering a socialist society. Any social order with women involved means female aristocracy and male enslavement buried under a mountain of lies and trumped up grievances.
Jeremiah Bell
You're a fucking idiot and should dial down the idpol over the ten dates you got rejected by.
Grayson Howard
You just proved my point. Thanks.
This is all you will get from women, ever. They will take and take until they are queen bee.
Matthew Scott
newfag here. can you tell me what spook and brown pill really mean? or should I probably just go fuck myself?
Hunter Perez
incel detected
spook=social construct brown pill=eat shit Yes, you should go fuck yourself and are a faggot
Jose King
Women aren't worth taking seriously. Herd animals.
Jeremiah Perez
Rosa, Virginia, and Eudora disagree
David Thomas
Feminism has become an utter fucking meme
Elijah Nguyen
Exceptions that prove the rule. They probably had/have male brains and are dykes.
James Robinson
normies gonna norm sex worker rights are a class issue, not a gender issue
Levi Richardson
Oh ok, you're retarded. Sorry to disturb you.
Jack Morales
It's lacking the "above oneself" part but it's not like the majority of the board care anyway. I think spookposting would actually decrease if all of Holla Forums actually started to read Stirner.
Owen Cook
Happas and Asians will be welcomed everywhere.
Benjamin Bell
A stripper makes more in a shift than most men make in a month. I'm tired of this bullshit.
Parker Price
...
Aaron Russell
Still not seeing any arguments, and the data is all on my side. I hope you remember me when Ms. Antoinette is telling you to eat cake, dog of the cunts.
Hunter Myers
Sex "workers" wouldn't exist under socialism as prostitution would be banned along with pornography.
Nathan Rivera
You don't actually believe this, do you? Strippers get ripped off by the clubs, by the patrons, have no benefits, and have to pay taxes like an independent contractor.
Angel Collins
And I'm sure birth control and abortion will be freely available, right sweetie?
John James
prostitution would be banned only after the distribution of Glorious 3D-printed Workers' Sexbots
Parker Martinez
literally what the fuck are you saying you idiot?
Oliver Nguyen
I've read many accounts online of strippers and call girls paying their way through Ivy League. If I could shake my ass for $2000 a night I sure wouldn't do landscaping.
Jayden Cruz
There's nothing to discuss because you can't think and just get enraged when men don't solve your problems for you. Left to your own devices, you'd die.
It's time to get a lot more humble.
John Young
This does not represent what the majority of strippers make. Most are lucky to come home with 200.
Jason Thomas
choose one.
Eli Lee
like cockwork
David Lee
Under socialism, sex workers would bargain collectively with club-personnel and consumer's unions to set fixed and relatively flat rates across the industry.
Aaron Peterson
Don't fuck with the Strippers' Union. Seriously.
Matthew Thomas
The problem with idpol isn't that any form of it is totally wrong on principle. What you say is mostly right. Its that all its manifestations in actual practice have been divisive, diversionary, and harmful.
Lucas Wood
I'm not a women, and you haven't even made an argument yet you accuse me of not being able to think you fucking idiot.
Cooper Miller
So, no explainations about why society would not need it anymore or how the economic motivations for engaging in the trade would disappear. You're just going to pass a law, because that thing is bad. Nice theory, fuckwit.
Colton Morales
I certainly have more theory than any of you fucking mouth breathers.
It is also noise, which is exactly why governments consistently foist it on leftist organizations. So long as they are discussing whining over immaterial side-effects of capitalism like race and gender they never get organized enough to actually get anything done. Meanwhile, since half the liberals are already championing all of their identitarian causes the reddit "socialists" only ever function as a fringe of the prevailing political system.
Sebastian Parker
>>>/r9k/ this board isn't for you.
Jordan Sullivan
You got that quote from the image that we were trolling Holla Forums with over your support for a "cuck" ideology. Never mind that it has absolutely nothing to do with your brilliant and in-depth plan to stop the sex industry by passing a law. Is this some of that dialectical science of materialist intersectionality that I have been hearing about lately?
Holy fuck, you really are Holla Forums. You have to go back.
Ayden Brown
He's not even Holla Forums. He is a reddit false-flagger. We have been getting a lot of those fuckwits lately.
Evan Hall
^See? Reddit.
Carter Martin
this tbh
Caleb Rivera
and it is and has been completely dominant, lately, to the point that anything about socialism seems to get drowned out and 'struggling against the system' mostly just looks like fighting for black and women CEOs to exploit their workers. which is why, I think, the left *needs* to squarely and adamtnly reject idpol, to say 'this is ridiculous', and put all its focus on concrete material shit like class, and avoid making social things like 'gender' a focus. This isnt to say anyone should go all reactionary and refuse to acknowledge any truths involving anything like race or gender, but to reject any focus on them unless it is strictly subservient to the focus on class. Going in the oppisite direction would ultimately be just as harmful.
Kevin Powell
racism is idpol, opposing it is not.
that being said, the class struggle is not only "central to social domination", it's a war for the future, a war that every day costs twenty thousand lives to starvation, and countless others to preventable diseases. It's a war that will be concluded with the fall of capitalism, that probably means in our lifetime, and it's a war we are currently losing.
Ethan Ortiz
No one fucking denies that race and sex can be oppressive in the superstructure, what we deny is that changing the superstructure itself is necessary or desirable over changing the base, which makes society better for everyone among the working class.
Nathan Jenkins
This. You can say the same thing without Marx's terms of art. Changing economic oppression raises the floor for everyone, making social issues easier to deal with.
Thomas Scott
Absolutely. We should not be like Holla Forums, since that is itself just another side of the same idpol idiocy that drowns out all revolutionary sentiment, but at the same time we absolutely cannot allow any headway to be made by the social justice crowd. There must always be a clear delineation between them and us.
Most of the goddamned world is already going on constantly about race, gendurr, and culture. We would accomplish nothing by joining them. Nobody save a small group of persons speaks to issues like wages, poverty, and debt except within the context of identity politics–the wage gap, white muh privilege, prisons as institutional racism, etc. People are powerless, overworked, desperate, and under constant threat of destitution. The world needs people who talk about that for a fucking change.
Jack Young
Could you please tell me what identity one has control of? And, based on this criterion of yours, what's identity politics? Because I can't think of anything that could be construed as an identity that can actively be changed by the individual. Everything about identity is contingent, if we follow this logic everything is idpol (and thus nothing is, because making a distinction makes no sense anymore). Furthermore, as others said, you have way more control over your social class than you have on your sex, gender or ethnic group.
And yes, of course there are other factors beyond class that interfere with the functionality of society. The problem is that class is the thing most oppressed people have in common. Not only that, but it's perfectly fair to say much of the gender/race bigotry is economical. Remove the economic issue and you'll be one step closer to the solution. You can't have a solution to this without class struggle and the fact that this bigotry is incredibly less rampant among the rich is a good proof.
Wyatt Rivera
I think the proper education on various types of economic and governmental policy should be taught too. like, teachers outside of colleges and universities should be teaching the basics of political and economical science to elementary and middle school kids. they teach some, like socialism or communism, by around grade 7, but only through the lens of comparison to capitalism, and only to show that those other modes of thought were ultimately inferior to capitalism (based on our victory in various wars etc). curriculum is not set up to teach kids the many, many viable politico-economic options, and valid strengths and criticisms of those ideologies. Capitalism is taught to be the end-all be-all terms of how to run a nation, with no mention of the criticisms and flaws of a capitalist Democratic society. the younger generations need to be informed earlier that there are other legitimate political ideologies, so one day they may be in a position to change their country for the better
David Hughes
Yes:
your race or sex does not deserve special fucking concessions or priviledges because of past misdeeds against you. You most likely have never ever been treated so badly by society because of your race or gender that you deserve billions or trillions of dollars in reparations. You do not deserve to load government with your leaders who will play a game of gangsterism where they enrich your ethnic group/sex at the expense of others as some kind of divine justice. You do not get to police what thoughts i have or what I say. If I want to say something against your group, i will. You don't get to label me anything and I owe you nothing. Your demands for respect deserve mockery and scorn. You are owed nothing by no one
Evan Fisher
and what if they don't want to achieve full collectivist existence? might adopting these contradictions have a positive impact on, say, just regular old capitalist society?
Jose Garcia
what do you mean " above oneself"? as in "putting social constructs above oneself"?
and again, I'll probably just go fuck myself
Brandon Stewart
aww thanks for the help! welp, guess I'll just go fuck myself now
Matthew Collins
look can we please just keep the pornography
Elijah Scott
The oppression of women and blacks does happen and is worth considering, but as soon as you permit discussion of "black politics" or "womens politics" you attract thousands of the most cancerous shitposters who have ever graced the internet. I am of course referring to feminists. Feminists do not give a fuck about solving problems because that would put them out of a job - their job is being professionally offended. It's like allowing Holla Forums to talk about genetics. As valid as the topic might be, the discussion will still be cancerous shit where everything gets reduced down to assigning blame to one race or another.
In summary, yes I have given these topics some consideration, but I won't fucking talk about them for the same reason I won't talk about race with Holla Forums. It's pointless.
Colton Taylor
robot is fine
Blake Turner
It's all a cunning plan to create an upsurge in the number of rapes.
Gavin Harris
Zero mobility under feudalism isn't entirely true. Priesthood (including nunneries) was a way out for peasants, and"city air makes you free" of course (though good luck breaking into a guild).
I agree with your point mind you I'm just being an autistic historyfag about the details.
Colton Bell
You can keep amateur porn, those big companies , and the entire industry are going to go bye bye
Matthew Roberts
Intellectual property would be abolished, so yes. All corporations which depend on artificial scarcity would collapse overnight.
There would still be a porn industry though, just as there is an open source software industry.
Joseph Williams
Also, how do you feel about pirating porn under capitalism? I'm trying to figure out how much your ideology is motivated by spooks.
Dominic Mitchell
...
Hudson Sanders
fallacy fallacy
yes, but I do not worship the union of egoists, the unions of egoists its not the end but simply a mean, Max Stirner does not advocate for the vulgar enjoyment of the egoist will, the ego is not sacred, you should follow your ego because it is your ego, but because no one else can or will follow your ego,as everyone follow theirs
there is no reason to worship following one's ego, when you are always following, god might care about his followers, but again, he cares about his followers
he loves them on the basis of egoism, the need to associate comes from the ego itself, therefore nothing is sacred, no form of social bond is fixed, basic or natural, just the act itself
its clear that you need to read him again
now thats some spooky shit my familia
ok then, if you don't advocate for a return to feudalism then we have nothing to discuss, capitalism is progressive in the diamat sense, not in a social or ecological one
ok, then it was simple misunderstaing
Isaac Newtoin clearly had to work to eat, and his work as a physicist involved answering questions made by his students
Civil rights were primarily black politics, but they were incredibly successful. First and second wave feminism were entirely female centered and they accomplished a lot.The problem starts when you start viewing in terms of victim and oppressors and start hating white people and straight people because of supposed wrongs they've done to you. If you're trying to just end discrimination against your group it's fine. If you're planning to overthrow an entire ethnic/gendered group of people then you should kill yourself.
Elijah Gray
Absolutely all of them. Identities are imaginary concepts. To illustrate the point, take a given identity, and try to define it. You will quickly discover that, no matter how cleverly you word your description and no matter how thuroughly you go into detail, that definition will always exclude a great many individuals who claim that identity and include individuals who do not consider themselves to be members of that identity group.
Identities always have specific traits associated with them, but those traits are never held collectively by all who claim the identity. Also, many who are not obviously members of the identity group will possess those traits. Confounding the matter, those traits that are expected of a given identity change over time.
Ultimately, the only working definition of an identity is that it includes all those individuals who claim it and no individuals who do not claim it. They are imaginary categories and are thus subject to reimagination.
Kayden Gonzalez
Not that I entirely disagree with this point, but there are some identities with firmer grounding, bar the most retarded versions of postmodernism. Like Sex, or Catholics being officially recognized as part of their formal international organization.
Benjamin Walker
… then blacks are not black?
Lucas Martin
No u
You accuse me of vulgar egoism and then immediately afterwards are responsible for vulgar egoism. He loves them on the basis of his will.In this sense, it is his "nature" to love them. I'll reiterate what I said earlier:
The fact that you go on to appeal to DiaMat makes this a severe case of cognitive dissonance on your part.
DiaMat is an outdated system. It doesn't account for the roles that domination and hierarchy play in forming our society and history. DiaNat is superior in the sense that it does account for these variables, and furthermore recognizes the basic truths of interdependence and mutualism necessary not just to our lives but all life.
This is absurdly reductionist. You're essentially equating all action taken to maintains oneself as "profit". Isaac Newton could have made a living in numerous other fashions, but he chose to be a scientist because he was passionate about it, not because of the capitalist profit motive. This doesn't even address my other point:
Henry Long
How the fuck is it a spook? Porn is explicitly exploitative as an industry altogether. Having to deprive oneself of their one body in order to sustain yourself is complete alienation. You know porn actresses are significantly more devout to religion than regular women, or that both male and female porn actors are more susceptible to mental and physical illnesses later in life?
Andrew Collins
libshit plz go
Alexander Jenkins
linked to the wrong one. meant to link to
Evan Edwards
Sex is a biological reality. Gender is an identity.
Define "black."
Dylan Rogers
...
Levi Myers
I don't know man, I'm the one who asked the question. What I object to is that there are identities that are mutable and identities that aren't. They either are or aren't. I was trying to understand how having a skin tone and having to work in a factory to avoid starving have anything in common.
Eli Rodriguez
Please.
Jacob Baker
I should've clarified myself a bit on this, but was too damn tired at the time. Essentially, racial and sex-based oppression does exist in tandem with class oppression, and that the destruction of capitalism and capitalist culture will help to abolish racial and sex-based oppression, i.e. not trying to pander to or patronize ethnic groups or females, and that under capitalism, racial & sex-based liberation can never occur because nothing will be enough to declare the end of patriarchy and white supremacy under capitalism, and that even if we are able to destroy these 2 systems under capitalism, then capitalism will still exist because it does not require these 2 systems to exist.
Logan Wright
Bitch please. You look at the study and they took one department and extrapolated that for the entire country.
And why the fuck are you going to Washington Times when they're paid by Jeff Bezos to lie to you and keep you in the dark?
Kayden Jones
Gender is an identity. Sex is not. That's why a supple young ladyboy can IDENTIFY as female. Being for equal treatment of women is not IDpol. Being for a female candidate, just because she is female, and seeing men as the biggest obstruction to this goal is IDpol.
Dominic Brown
What you are talking about is the expectations of others, not the identity of the person himself. If a person possesses certain characteristics, he is expected to behave in a manner associated with the identity group that is thought to display those characteristics. If a man has a certain skin tone, he is expected to behave in a particular manner and to have a certain set of interests in common with others who have that skin tone. The thing is, that's complete bullshit.
Charles Cox
I think it's easier to just split idpol into two basic types: One is by law explicitly condoned, or even mandatory, and can use idpol as a basis for oppression regardless of economic system. The other is implicit, and lacking legal means by which to oppress directly, can only oppress via other types of oppression that are still legal, making itself inseparable from any other other oppression.
As noted, the former type has been almost completely stamped out since the 1960s, leaving only the latter type.
Since the latter type (existing solely as a motive in the mind of the perpetrator) can not be directly targeted by legislation or any other type of activism separately from capitalism, this logically means any putative activism against it which does not target capitalism is impractical by definition.
Brandon Walker
oh man, that's just crazy enough to work too
Daniel Brown
but where else am I going to watch women fart whipped cream onto each other?
Chase Scott
yeah but that paycheck is worth it. plus you get to fuck assholes on the reg. which sounds like a dream for the men, and like normal life for the women
Connor Anderson
fucking spare me
Liam Morgan
No more than any other performing art. Where is the deprivation, exactly? From whom? Then tell Abrahamist spook-chasers to stfu about their sex hangups and prevent them from passing such mental diseases along to their kids. Learn to change more than one parameter at a time, liberal.
Zachary Green
requisition.jpg
Thomas Sanders
Sick ghost story dude.
Ryder Robinson
Washington Post is owned by Jeff Bezos, not the Times.
Grayson Johnson
The social conditions of being 'black' vary even within a given society based on arbitrary social definitions. A prole is a prole whether he's rich or poor, etc. 'Blackness' is subjective to the point where American blacks sometimes don't consider Africans 'black' because they weren't slaves and often don't have the history of poverty and oppression that American blacks did.
In any event issues subject to considerations along lines of identity aren't necessarily reactionary or harmful to the cause of class dissolution, but their nature has to be examined through the lenses of revolutionary socialist theory.
Charles Miller
Your analogy of class to race isn't sound. Class = objective material truth based on the condition raised by the relations of production.
The inner conflict of these relations raised by the social work but private ownership is the driving force behind societies progress.
Nothing else has ever been the driving force in any society but class.
Does this make any and all questions on race, gender and so on "identity politics" and therefore condemnable as bourgeoise?
Certainly not, but under the condition that these questions are never analysed outside the context of being a class issue, leading to such obscure liberal ideas of quotas and so on, with identities being emancipated into the system and its leading positions, and it to have any revolutionary meaning. Further it can only mean that these issues in their current form are always an expression of class society and its inner conflicts and that their solution only lies in the overcoming of class society itself.
