I'm done, I'm fucking done ever, EVER trying to engage "center-left" liberals in good faith

I'm done, I'm fucking done ever, EVER trying to engage "center-left" liberals in good faith.

They are legitimately more disingenuous than fucking Holla Forums.

ayyy i knew you'd come around and realize your pals at Holla Forums aren't so bad! good to have you on board!

Probably because they LARP as left-wingers and give actual leftists a bad name.

What happened?

Labour party meeting post the loss in the Copeland election.

They are blaming it all on the left of the party, ignoring the seat was basically lost in 2015 and the only reason Labour still held it was because UKIP and Tories split the nationalist vote, now those UKIP voters are moving to the Tories because of the Hard Brexit shit, Tories sweeped the seat.

Tories won the seat with 9%, UKIP lost 9%. Somehow this is Corbyns fault.

Also none of them admit that they've done anything wrong in their constant sabotaging of the party for the past 2 years, they tried to even blame losing Scotland on Corbyn.

Every time those of us on the left try to explain that basically, they sabotaged us so the left would fail and create a self-fulfilling prophecy, they called it a conspiracy theory… despite the coup and the playing up of benn and the leaking with the Tories etc etc.

Oh and they they started just outright attacking left wing politics and positions as "infantile".

I've never been faced with such disingenuous bullshit in all my life.

So what will you do instead OP?

My sympathies friend. I feel like Corbyn is doomed to failure with such a disloyal party full of blaitite snakes. Alas.

liberals are right-wing, no matter how progressive they are on social issues

goddamn blairites

When will this meme die?

Give up entirely on electoral politics largely. It doesn't work because basically everything is aligned against the left.

We are suffocated by no media coverage and the little media coverage just plays us off as idiots.

Every time we ally with liberals we get backstabbed.


Yep, the thing is, Labour WILL get a boost when he is kicked since the media will swing back to loving blairism, but honestly, Labour are probably spent as a political force.


Not even blairites, just liberal shitheads who would rather the right wins than see anything resembling a successful left.


It's funny, because they even say media bias against Corbyn is a conspiracy theory, yet they will all say (and rightfully mind you) that Milliband lost 2015 because of media smear campaigns.

yeah no they're not

Can Labour legitimately expect to ever have a chance with Corbyn when he is dragging around people like Diane Abbot? She is utterly repugnant. The more people see of her the less they like her.

NHS protests soon. Get your ass out there and tell people about their betrayal.

I still believe in the dream of Blairite removal.

t. center left

how do you respond?

First tell them the evil "socialist" societies unfortunately missed a spot.

Second
The failure of those societies is real but exaggerated. A lot of the numbers were told cant be confirmed or shown to be iron clad and the increase of them exponentially as time has gone on has only made the claims against them more and more ridiculous.

There is broader context to some of the failures beyond the dichotomy of capitalism vs socialism. The World Wars, a lack of specific modern resources, a lack of certain technologies which stems from an embargo of trade against them by most western countries, having to follow from a previous series of bad generations of government and famines, having certain geographic and cultural difficulties other countries did not face in the same time period. Having to go from mud farm feudalism to late capitalism in the span of a generation, which fed into and was effected by all the other things already listed.

Not true socialism/communism argument here. You can also point out that inversely capitalism is often defended in a similar manner, it slides it excesses away through euphemisms, changes of definition and catch phrases "externalities, crony, corporatism, voluntary, etc."

Capitalisms own gorillions dead (resource wars, poverty, misallocation of resources, structural violence, environmental damage, forced neoliberalism which means debts levied on people who can never pay them back.) Granted we can give some leeway to capitalist societies here, in the same way we gave context and fair looks at some of the problems of the societies above, but that is the whole point you want people to see these things in their true broader context without the typical ideology blocking them from seeing these things.

Rebranded socdems are doomed to fail for more reasons than just the fact that social democracy is not in the interests of capital anymore, comrade.

Social democracy is flawed but it's better than neoliberalism. Accelerationism doesn't work.

Of course it is, but you seem to be under the impression that capitalism can simply choose to remain in social democratic policy; that the heavy Keynesian basis it relies can stand up to the contradictions and developments of capital that forced neoliberalism into the fray. Even the most developed social democracies are faltering and slowly withering away under the pressing force of these antagonisms, and even well-intended socdems like Corbyn who do everything in their power to institute proper socialized structures alongside them will inevitably fail because they are trying to go against the grain of capital's discourse.

It doesn't "work" to the betterment of any immediate conditions of the working class, but it works to precipitate this constant contradictory flight within capital away from every dead end of capitalism's maze until it's ever more out of options. When this unravels so far that the conditions become unbearable to not but face, a true communist movement that has been theorizing in the dark may arrive and accompany their immiseration towards certain success. It is historically invariable this way: all of the largest and most powerful revolutionary movements occured when shit hit the fan.

I didn't say that, social democracy is one possible part of a movement towards socialism

?

Social democracy is not stable and will eventually dissolve yes, perhaps into neoliberalism, but perhaps the popular left wing movement can move towards leftist politics instead. On the other hand doing nothing and not engaging in politics at all is a sure way to be irrelevant.

It already has. It simply cannot do otherwise, nothing can under the influence of the law of value.

The direct consequence of the late '70s pivot away from Keynesianism to neoliberalism showed otherwise: that neoliberalism still perfectly manages to mask social bads under the guise of a hyper-individualized ideological texture which says that things like credit-based spending, using private over public sector goods and having individual bargaining rights over collective bargaining rights are the most liberal, efficient and most of all "free" way of "having an economy free of government(tm)", and we all ate it up. In fact, neoliberalism saw the death of not just most truly radical socialist movements in the west but its increased efficiency with an ideological state apparatus instead of a more repressive one let neoliberalism conquer the rest of the world with ease: China saw a direct way out of state capitalism, Russia resisted but ended up capitulating, Cuba became more and more derelict, Vietnam followed in China's footsteps, et cetera.

I'm not suggesting we do nothing. I am precisely suggesting we do everything to institute reforms that as much as possible eliminate other avenues for capital to escape to while at the same time piquing workers into the idea of the communist movement and theorizing an ever-evolving framework of rhetoric and praxis for when the time is right to put all these things together and stirke.

duh.

Nobody likes them. They're an insane cult of programming.
You can't criticise anything without triggering isms.
There's no easement, there's no flexibility. It's suffocating.

Just because left wing parliamentary politics failed once (globally) to transition to leftism doesn't mean it can never work as a method, by that logic revolution is also doomed to always fail and we might as well not do anything.

Lenin was right.

This "transition to leftism" you speak of takes form how? There is no inherent quality to leftism besides a general opposition to either a (predominant) change in economic relations of the status quo or social relations.

Assuming social democracy is already actually proper left wing politics and not an utter betrayal of the true interests of the working class, what "transition to leftism" do you even deisre?

I just outlined that I think revolution is far from doomed to fail.

Corbyn has basically no hope of holding on to leadership of the party as it currently exists, he should purge the Blairites while he still can, regardless of the consequences.

I bet $100 Corbyn would be way higher in the polls if after the Coup, he made Blairite heads publically roll.
Probably would have brought the party in line as well.

Corbyn honestly isn't a leader. The entire Corbyn project though was to just build a new left wing structure within Labour and bring it back to class and workers analysis and politics rather than neoliberal bullshit.

Sadly though this is going shit as well as Momentum falls to Trotskytard infighting and Brexit has seriously fucked us hard in a largely unpredictable way.

oh come on man one more blowjob

Labour has always been an imperialist apologist party

Even the Attlee government invaded Korea and put down communists in Malaya

...

Shit OP, by liberals I didnt know you meant Blairites.

These are vermin to be crushed, not debated.

They are generally clueless fucking elitist. I won't lie, yes, unity in the beginning to kick it off, but going to honestly going to eat them too.