What is the difference between class and identity, if there is one at all?

What is the difference between class and identity, if there is one at all?

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class is a material reality, you can't just identify as bourgeois or proletariat.

Why do people come here to ask basic questions?

Class is a material function to the relation towards the means of production as well as an identity. Don't let people's "anti-sjw" shit fool you

that's cheap and you know it

An identity is something you identify as, its a vague grouping which you can choose to be a part of to some extend, often based on physical attributes and part of the self..

Class is your position in the economic system. It is not a choice, it is not something bound to a persons self. If you work for a wage and do not own things which you gain income over (land, factories, houses) you are by its definition, part of the proletariat. As soon as you gain land and get income from them by means of charging people to use it (or hiring people to do a job, which is the same with you having more power) you stop being part of the proletariat.

Someone who owns a factory and employs others is not part of the proletariat. Someone who doesn't own a factory and has to sell his labour for income is not part of the bourgeoisie. You cannot choose to identify as proletariat or bourgoiesie, like you can choose to be a gamer, or choose to be identify as transsexual. It is something which is inherent to your position in the economic system.

Its kind of similar to doctors titles. You either have a degree and are a doctor, or you do not have a degree and you are not a doctor. You are allowed to claim you are a doctor, but that doesn't make you one, and you can claim you aren't a doctor even if you have a degree, but you still are a doctor.

Why is this distinction important?
Because identity politics is based upon the self-actualisation as that identity. The goal is to benefit that arbitrary group of people, a group defined by what people consider themselves to be. Its an endless shuffling around between different arbitrary groups which have nothing that links them other than the idea of the group itself.
Class politics is exactly not that. People from the same class can be as different as they like to be, they can be nazis, feminists, gays, asians, blacks, whites, transsexual, black power, whatever. But their position in society, their position in the economic system, makes them share common interests. In capitalism, the two classes, the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, are inherently in opposition to each other. Even if members of the same class hate each others guts, they often act in similar ways, because they have the same position in society and their interests thus align. This makes it so that a class is not an identity, it is not something you identify as, it is something you 'are, whether you like it or not, and the very fact that you are one makes you act in certain ways, regardless of your own awareness of the concept of class or the political theories developed on its existence.

what did he mean by this?

legitl loled

He meant he's not a smart person and would like people smarter than him to stop using dirty tricks like making this obvious.

An identity never exists in itself, it is always made out of something, class is no different. Saying that class is real, has the same is-ought problem as all the other identities.

Identity is permanent. Class is transient.

A negro can go from wage earner to factory owner but he will never not be a negro.

That's why Marxism is class reductionist and a sham.

So what you're saying is that identity (e.g. gender, race, sexuality, etc.) requires you to actively participate and "self-actualise" as that identity while class, because it is an inherently material condition exists regardless of whether you actualize it or not? (apologies if I interpreted that wrong)

That is correct.

class is just as much a 'material reality' as the lived experience of having an insatiable urge to slam boiipuccini, or as having higher concentrations of melanin in your skin, etc

Does that mean that:
Biological sex = material condition; gender = identiy
melatonin count = material condition; race = idenitity

That is incorrect. In europe people do not identify themselves as saxons or franks anymore, even though this supposed "bloodbond" still exists to this very day. Identities only exist as long as there are people who identify as that identity. As soon as an identity is forgotten, it disappears. Class exists regardless of your knowledge of it because it is a position in society.


Yes. Precisely that.

Would you say that when you fight for your material condition, it becomes an identity or that there's something more/else that needs to come into the equation for it to become an identity?

Aut-Right confirmed for right wing SJWs once again

A position in society made into an identity, is not any less an identity. There are many positions, some being identities while others are unspoken of, when people talk of class, they generally don't talk of marxian class, yet they do talk of position. The elevation of marxian class based on it's "realness" is ideological, not an instance of reality speaking for itself.

The fact that you can identify as proletariat because of your knowledge of your role in society, the fact that the identity "worker" can exists, does not change the fact that class is a material reality based on your position in society. Not identifying as worker while being part of the proletarian class does not mean your interests do not align with those of the proletarian class.

If you just want to move the goalpost and say "lol not non-marxist class" you can fuck off. This is a commie board and we only talk about marxist class. We have no desire to talk about your "class" and anything we say here doesn't apply to it. We don't have to defend an idea or standpoint just because the same word is used for it.

Why is class so special compared to sex or the biological aspects of race then? All of these are material conditions, which has their respective identities attached with them. Why even bother with the distinction when they ultimately point to the same thing?

IE its not important or even relevant if people identify as "proletariat", people are part of it, regardless of the existance of people talking about it. If marx never existed and nobody bothered to ever put it into words, class would still exist, just like how a rock exists even if there are no beings alive to see it or name it.

And no I am not going to accept you trying to move the goalpost from "does class exist" to "does reality exist beyond my mind", Descartes

It's special because it's spans the whole of society and is non-exclusive

Class is not any different from sex or the genetics of humanity and their affects on the people who have them.

The distinction is important because you are mistaken about race. Race is not a clear cut category, and many scientists say it does not exist. Differences in genetics exist, those are reality. Differences in biological sex exist, those are reality. Your position in society exists, it is reality.

Whether you identify as a demosexual attack helicopter, white person or french, Buntu or black, Han or asian does not matter. They are not reality as they do not continue to exist once they are forgotten by humans. Your dick continues to exist, your skin colour continues to exist, your position in society continues to exist.

If you're locked up in your self-referential language game, where conclusion follows from being embedded in definition, I do wonder why you bother discussing anything at all.

Oh wait I think I get it now. Identity becomes shitty when it conflates the material conditions for identity. Like conflating the poor material conditions of the working class with being a certain race or gender, etc.

Well that is certainly part of the reason why identity politics is shit.

Vulgar scientism, existence does not depend on clear cut definitions (which don't exist as words don't get their meaning from other words).

Class is an observation, identity is a feeling

No mate, you come here to a communist board and ask why class is not an identity.

Therefore we assume you mean why we think class isnt an identity, so we explain.

If you would have asked "why isn't lower class, middle class, upper class an identity?" we would not have given these answers because that refers to a different concept entirely than the one we are discussing. You essentially claim to be victorious because you failed to clearly define what you meant in your question. If you want to feel smug and good about yourself now, go ahead, but know that none of what we said has any relevance on the question "is my very specific vague concept of class that is completely different from yours not an identity?", because we have no idea, maybe you define class on if you feel people are poor enough, like with middle and lower class often is done.

The question as it was conveyed to me was asking for clarification on the definitions we hold. Its not a discussion, we don't even assume you could be right, because we are merely explaining a concept.

Deal with it.

Op here, I'm not this guy

Oh ok. No worries, I had the suspicion there were two people here, just didnt know who was the OP.

class = reals > identity = feels

Anyway im going to bed. Good night.

Sleeping = feels

class is important in the productive relations of society. refer to

since we live under an extremely oppressive capitalist we're much more bound to run up against its contradictions

Yes but if you have no other identity than being a worker in the capitalist system then that is your identity. It is virtually impossible to exist without an identity.

Where are the repeatable experiments and the peer reviewed defenses of them?

Socialism is about as scientific as any ideology, not at all.

Immutability doesn't make something real. The concept of "negro" only exists in your mind. Obviously we can see that a person is black, but it doesn't affect reality unless you act on it. This generalizes for all races.

Material standing, on the other hand, is a fact of reality independent of whether you choose to acknowledge it. Everyone in the world could deny poverty is a thing; this would have no affect on the existence of poverty.

Sure but I think the greater point is that you focus on the material conditions and try not to get caught in identity

Identity is just fee fees. There are a million+ aspects to my being, why should I choose to identify with a specific few? I don't deny that I'm a white guy, but that's not what I consider to be my most defining features. That's all feelings, and is insubstantial to the workings of the world. One, however either is or is not bourgeois or proletarian, even if one decides they identify as the other, it is the relation defines them in marxist analysis.

Not all science is done in a lab. Archaeology, sociology, etc.

Removing the conditions that measure the individual to be negro doesnt make them not a negro. And you are taking on something that might be impossible to correct.
We arent all human :^)

for peer-reviewed marxist and post-marxist economic journals see here
heterodoxnews.com/directory/journals.htm

Are you purposely being dense or are you this retarded?

What is the difference between dubstep and brostep? Also what is brostep?

Makes sense to me. You understand what I'm addressing? There's a lot here.

p-please take my brain-dead ideas seriously

The "step" is from 2-step garage beats.
brostep is a snarl word to describe that music which does not derive from the 2-step beat, and which is generally more poppy and normie-tier

I'll keep this simple so your average 14 year old Ancom retard can understand. Being a NEET for example is an identity. Let's say then said NEET ends up developing an app that ends up being the new Candy Crush, they then loose thier identity and come a 🐷 man in the capitalist class. The only way this can be undone is if they redistribute all thier wealth to NEETS, or wageslaves (le proletariat)