Curious evolution of Farms in Warcraft

I think I understand now.

RTS have the exact same problem that JRPGs have, there is strategy involved and if you actually care to learn the mechanics you will start doing things really efficiently still haven't managed to do that with RTS, I can't think fast enough but the problem is that you can just easily cheese through them as well with making a shit ton of units and just fucking up the enemy base not in multiplayer games but in single player at least so the player is never forced to learn mechanics while other genres of games force you to learn their mechanics, otherwise you are unable to progress the game at all. You can't beat an well made FPS while being absolutely shit at positioning and aiming, you can't beat a puzzle game without thinking about the solution, you cannot beat a platformer without knowing how to control your character, but you can easily brute your way through an RTS with just making enough units to fuck your AI opponent over just like you can win most JRPG's by mashing the attack button over and over even if it's the most ineffective tactic.

In Blizzard based RTS games, yes.
For actual RTS games, no.

Blizz just cut out everything but an action-movie-esque "two armies clashing" but made it impossible to come back without some severe gymnastics in the late game. Old Westwood games laughed at this idea as you could actually build defensively enough to thwart even the most well-stocked armies. The Total War games also shit all over Blizz RTS games with the idea of strategy over twitch utilization of micromanaging game-changing abilities of some units.

Though seriously guys, how the fuck do I git gud at RTS and strategy in general? I can kind of see the way of thinking that is necessary for such games but I have no fucking ability to think fast enough and I feel that I get distracted too easily to really focus and try to come up with a good plan. Any suggestions?

well, this I don't entirely disagree with. In blizzard RTS (meaning: starcraft) it's literally all about APM and zealously following "optimal" timers and meta.

This. To this day, multiplayer in old C&C (especially vanilla Generals) games is the most fun I've ever had in gaming as a whole

Play games that let you pause, look things over, and queue up actions, or that are long and slow paced.

...

It's more than possible to pull off decent farms in WC3 as proven by modders:

hiveworkshop.com/threads/farm.141955/#resource-27849
hiveworkshop.com/threads/farm.158793/#resource-28849

I would like to take a moment to compliment WC3 modding community. Where other communities usually hog custom assets, WC3 modders produced tons of content anyone can use. Generous.

Now, back to question why, I guess they just didn't want to make farms take up too much space as upkeep raising was their only function, and you had to produce tons of them which could have rendered the human bases dis-proportionally large. And the 1x1 huts are already tiny, so the logical decision was just reducing it to a hut. Also don't ask me how come ziggurats are bigger than the rest of upkeep structures, no idea tbh.

As for WoW, yes, many Warcraft 3 models were used as inspiration for it's assets but obviously something as simple as a peasant's home will have more uses than farmhouses.

Or they could have just stopped being stupid and called them "Houses" instead of "Farms".

Except stupid wouldn't end there because they'd have to rename Humans into Alliance because they have like three to four human units tops.

This thread is shit and OP is a massive faggot.

it's true, fastest deathball wins, ggez, no strats required.

While the thread was really autistic, it really resonated with my own Warcraft 3 autism so I couldn't not respond, fam.

You should have seen the DTA night.

From the top of my head the only non-human units I can remember are the Rifflemen, the 3 units from the Arcane Sanctum who are high elves, the mortar team, and the Mountain King and Blood Mage. Making a difference between humans and elves/dwarves was stupid at that point since they counted as one, but calling them alliance wouldn't be so bad.
As for naming farms houses, the "farms" provided food for the army, so it made more sense to call them farms even though they looked like fucking houses.

Eh, those farms are kind of pathetic. Basically just gardens. I think a better solution would have been buildable, traversable fields rather than farmhouses.

Jesus, the humans were really pitiful, there are really just 5 human units, and that if you count peasants and militia separately.

Tropico has the bests farms, farmland is automatically placed in optimal fertility soil.

The gyrocopter is actually a gnome.

So are the Warcraft 1 and 2 farms. Hell, so are the Age of Empires ones. To be fair having SimCity 4 style farms in an RTS just wouldn't be practical.

KC tier

that's been the case for every RTS

tbh I love C&C but there's alot wrong with them tbh

Sure it would, your battles would just take place across those very farms, as peasants that work them are chased away by the invading armies of your enemy.

Kinda like how a base attack in any RTS already forces your resource harvesting units to retreat, except you put the resources down yourself instead of having them pre-placed.

Even if that were true, what the fuck does this have to do with a thread about farm models?

the main bread and butter units are human though, which is the majority. The specialty units are just other races.

You wouldn't call America a full nigger country just because all the basketball players are black

Pic related contain the only humans on the human faction. 5 units, the rest are other races. 5 aren't really a majority, and I wouldn't say they are bread and butter, except for the knight.

This user has a point.

yeah being 56% white makes you 100% white

It wouldn't be a fixed number of tiles though. You could, for example, have one tile of farmland. It wouldn't produce much, but it would still produce.

That all assumes that microing the assault is the only gameplay mechanic in an RTS, and completely forgets that base building, econ. maintenance and proper defense is all a part of the game as well.
At the point where you can spam tanks or equivalent to win, you probably fortified your base to the point where the AI can't fuck your shit up with its regular harassment, and can completely focus on burning money on spam.
To do all that you have to at least have some grasp on how the units work. Otherwise you end up with shit like a defense of all infantry and no hard counter to vehicles or whatnot.

Either all that, or you are playing on easy mode where the enemy units have 1/2 the hp, vehicles are all bargain bit and the AI is completely lobotomized instead of just partially.

RRRRRRIBS dripping with sauce!

you see alot of neutral humans who are working farms and are in cities, the only other race you see which does that are elfs sometimes.

so I'd argue that humans are the backbone of the alliance actually supplying the nations with produce while we have other races fight for us on the majority

Lorewise, yes, the humans are the strongest power of the alliance, controlling and managing the elves' magic and the weaponry made by dwarfs, but in-game they are a fucking minority, almost all your army is other races with barely any human on it. Look at Orcs, there are barely 3 tauren units and 4 troll units, the rest are actual orcs.

All I'm saying is, it's pretty pathetic that human forces in-game consist of 5 human units. Maybe that's different in WoW where factions seems to be more independent, but in WC3 and even WC2, humans depend heavily on other factions, unlike the Horde.

...

If they'd added the field with the crops, this thread would still have been created only the subject would have been "how come only 10 carrots can feed an army"

Yes, but if it did have a field it would've been nicer.
Warcraft 2 best warcraft

Those 10 carrots aren't feeding an entire army though, they're only feeding the pop they support, which i want to say is 5 or 10 pop.

:^)

IIRC all of the race's campaigns in WC3 had maps where you were given a limited number of units and couldn't build more.

Been a long time since I played it though.

What.

How is this better?

Being faster than your opponent is not a strategy.
There is as much strategy in RTS, as there is role playing in JRPG.

Go play a slower, more methodical RTS like SupCom then.

So people just spam units, there's no build order, no composition, no management, no tactics, you just mass send your armies to attack the enemy. Damn this genre is shit.

I think alot of people see high skill level play mostly and at that pace things tend to look really simple so it's easy to say "pft where's the strat in that" from the point of view of a observer as battle intuition isn't easily displayed, hence why casters with actual experience with the game will state it sometimes

The issue with many RTS, and strategy games in general, is that there is an optimum condition which is set. Again, the issue of a JRPG, and a lot of CRPGs. To be good at the games is the same as being a speedrunner - you have to know the game very well. What's of very little importance is your opponent.

Compare a fighting game. You could play the same exact way every time, but if you do, you'll get beaten by a player who changes up tactics and adapts to what you're doing. That's not to say that an RTS involves no thinking, but it's a lot more about the game itself than the other player. Further, these games really do encourage brute force and numbers over mental and physical reflect: you can beat 10 units with 100 units to fucking a computer in a lot of strategy games, and you can beat nearly any CRPG or JRPG boss with sufficient grinding.

Arena shooters, fighting games, and platformers are all fundamentally superior in this regard. I'd argue even WoW PvP is designed superior than Warcraft on this point.

Model/Sprite size and convenience. Unless you want the house to look like a miniature model compared to the units, you remove the farm and increase the size of the thing that people will pay attention to.

The first pic has a good house but a laughable farm (can you even call that a farm?). The second has a decently sized farm, but a very slim and dwarf-ish house. You have to choose between the two and I think blizz made the right choice. Although they should've been smart and just called it a house like said.

God, no. Having farms that big would lag the fuck out of the game + you would constantly be harassed by enemy raiders. Having a battle take place there would trash your farms.

Any decent RTS gives you enough defensive buildings and procedures to thwart enemy advances. C&C, AoE and Stronghold all let you turtle in you base, given if you know how to build it. Which isn't hard, but that could just be my autistic experience.

Which game allows me to manage comfy farms and occasionally defend against attackers?

ITT: retards assuming that the lack of much strategic thought in single-player RTS campaigns carries over to the multiplayer.

git gud fucking scrublords. but really, if it's that unstrategic, and is entirely based on a baseline of mechanical skill above which all strategic thought is useless, then B level players would be able to beat A level players since they're both passed said mechanical baseline for the most part.

this obviously isn't the case because there, in reaity, is a great deal of actual strategy in RTS (starcraft, etc). if there was no strategic thought above a certain baseline of skill then the upwards mobility of players above that baseline would be high, but it isn't.

qed.

this is the exact same mentality why I quit the genre, the elitism literally sucks the fun out of the game for other people. enjoy playing against ai buttfucker

Fuck off Lee Kim.

Damn you must be really honest.

tbh or not tbh, that is the question.

"i dont have a counterargument but fuck you anyways" basically

Everything after War 2 is not canon.

this tbh fam

Jokes aside, considering the stupid alternative timeline stuff they pull in WoW, this should be true on some level

No joke, war 3 was already cancerous nu-blizzard shit. They started focusing on their characters despite not being able to write good characters and sprinkled it with eye-rapey cartoony bullshit. Where the fuck has WC1 and 2 grit gone?

Either you're a retarded nostalgiafag or just saw the title screen and thought that's how the whole game looked. w2 was just as colorful as 3, just in 2 dimensions. w3 looked the way it did because cartoony textures look better on low-poly models than gritty-realism.

You can make the argument for w1 being serious, but only because of the resolution limitation not allowing for any kind of focus to take place.

You're some kind of a special dumbfuck if you think "grittiness" equals no color. WC2 had properly looking units, gore, no cartoony graphics and even fucking elves looked manly.
WC3 decided to cater to wider audience with its looks.

And you're a double digit mongoloid to think it doesn't. Grittiness is primarily texture, secondarily color. You can't have something looking gritty with live colors. Just like how you can't something be gritty if it's clean and simple. w2 is in no way gritty. The color pallet and clean sprites prevent this.
The fuck does this mean? Proportions? Well, for one; you're comparing a 2D game with a 3D one. Two; w3'd models were surprisingly really good looking. Some you would even consider 'gritty'.
Confirmed for never playing w3. The unit corpses were bloody and whenever you killed something with a catapult you would see plash of guts and bones fly in the air.
w3 looked about as cartoony as w2, but in 3D.
So when earlier you were sperging about muh grittiness, you really meant realism? Sure, elves look like low T, soyboys. The way they should.

Have you even played it?

warcraft 3 was fun in a different way than normal RTS games since blizz went way hard on having the heroes be the core mechanic of the game.

compare to cnc: generals/zero hour, where a gla without a jarmen wasn't doomed just because the other gla had one.

Settlers

>dune 2000 dune 2 is shit for multiplayer no matter how you see it
>not going stealth tanks and pulling a nightcrawler by sending them to uncloak infront of guard towers

You aren't really good at C&C, are you?

What? It's plainly obvious from the WC2 pic and WC3 pic that they're both from the same art style. Shit man did you even play Warcraft 2? Grom sounds even stupider in Warcraft 2 then his downs syndrome in 3, and some 3D character models are a perfect replica of their 2D sprites from Warcraft 2 or their pictures.

You never played a good RTS or any JRPG.

...

Then find other scrubs to play with. Hell, my friends are pretty bad at RTS so they often go 3v1 against me and they win half the time. We all have a good time. You just need to find the way to have fun.

The only style of RTS that is good are the ones that give you a set amount of units per scenario with no base management.

...

Lorewise, didn't humans get obliterated by the undead?

...

This is true for random map mode in most RTS games, but they all have campaigns with hand designed scenarios that do require all around knowledge of the faction units and strategy. They also pretty much all have user-friendly scenario creators for the very reason that fighting AI in a multiplayer map is unsatisfyingly easy.

I always forget Christmas is like a mini-summer and we're loaded with mini-summerfags.

...

No it's not edgy, not at all. It's a (shit) saturday morning cartoon from the 80s in it's tone.

Warcraft 3 takes itself entirely serious from the first mission. The opening cinematic features two armies clashing before an infernal crashes down on it, followed by Thrall waking up in a cold sweat and being guided by a raven.
Face it user, you're basing your entire argument on graphics.

dosfags get the rope

Been wanting to play a decent rts for a while now. lads, please post some gud strategies!!

Not him, but I have a similar problem. All you have explained works fine in theory, but then the armies actually class and I feel like someone chopped off my arms and then attached a stick to one of the stumps. It all just turns into a jumbled mess and all I can do is just throw more shit at the enemy units rather than carefully counter and move units into the right position.

I want to make an RTS set in the 1800's about colonial wars and exploits, with an AoE sort of vibe but using formations rather than clusters of units, with Victoria 2 kind of colonization options but without the TW Empire shitfest where throwing your sabre units at the enemy is better and faster than waiting for them to reload their muskets, also a game where playing as China or India doesn't necessarily mean zerg rushing or having the biggest population but where you can exploit your opponent's lust for riches and basically replace them by stealing their tech and exploiting their lack of reinforcements, also where you don't control just one faction but multiple of them in the form of your puppets and where education, public order and the economy are as important as warfare.

Which game?
Learn your hotkeys, watch a couple of tournament strategies, watch a basic guide on how to [X} faction

Human kingdom of Lordaeron in Northern part of Eastern Continent was destroyed nearly completely in WC3. Humans in World of Warcraft are mostly from human kingdom of Stormwind that controls large region in southern part of the continent (dwarven lands are in the middle, much of them devastated by Dark Iron's desperate summoning of Ragranos during War of the Three Hammers)

Pretty much all of them. I think the last RTS I played was Age of Mythology, I can play through the campaign because it mostly boils down to "turtle up, build and army, throw it at the enemy, and if that doesn't do the trick and go back to step 1 because the enemy won't bother replacing buildings or expanding".

And how would you fix that?

I always wanted to create an RTS with just shit tons of fantasy racism. The elves hate the dwarves for destroying nature with their strip mining, and hate the humans for cutting down trees to create farmland. Meanwhile the humans and dwarves are fighting over mineral rights, but then the orcs come in and go full out nig nog chimp out so they band together to fight the greenskin horde etc etc But I don't know of any free/cheap game engines that would work for that and I have literally no idea how to program. Not to mention I'm ADD as fuck.

Damn Americans and their fucking survey lines.

QUARTER SQUARE MILE AFTER QUARTER SQUARE MILE OF FREEDOM, CORN, AND RATTLESNAKES
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!!!!!!!!!!!!