How can the 3D gameplay of Sonic be fixed?

Have actually good physics

Take the non-shitty level approach from Sonic Adventure, i.e. design that isn't linear corridors for Sonic to effortlessly speed through. Make bosses not easy pieces of shit. Just like make good game. Sonic is not a GO FAST 24/7 LOL game, it's supposed to have a heavy handful of slower platforming areas.

no lets not do that

this is true, but it also true of Lost Words if they removed the run button. However, what would be better is if they actually got the momentum based physics right and actually designed a stage around that.

(you) are retarded

your game just doesn't look very good

That's the point. Enemies just don't work in fast paced games unless they're as fast as you are. And having swarms of enemies is the worst thing a Sonic game can do. (See: Heroes, Shadow, 06, Unleashed and Forces) All Utopia needs is stellar level design with obstacles and shortcuts everywhere to be fun.

Oh you're just a shitposting retard, nevermind.

that's exactly what sanic people want.

you can't change what the creators decided to call it
its not the enemies that are the problem and I didn't say they were

funny how all the actions is in tight spaces with simple obstacles

Don't fixate too much on speed, just controlling and maneuvering it. Something like this:

no

They just could let certain enemies operate in groups of up to 5.

Sonic Adventure gameplay in Sonic Generations stage size and nonlinearity.

Retard.

Then what the fuck were you referring to? Utopia has obstacles, just spread out. That's why I said all it would need to stay fun is good level design. The physics are there, the visuals are there. All that's missing is one piece of the puzzle. Except not really because what was shown is good and only has the flaw of being too spaced out. Which is fine for a fucking tech demo.

is this normally how you take disagreement? They called it a reveal trailer, it's revealing how bad the level design is. Maybe it'll finally be the good sonic fan game you've been waiting for

you might wanna lube up cuz its gonna get rougher

it says early demo, do you like to make up things in your head?

they can make sonic slopes and loops, not an impressive tell of their level design skills

a piece that's like 80% of the entire formula

why are you getting so defensive over someone saying their early demo doesn't look very good

I would say the Sonic/Shadow physics from Adventure 2 plus the hub worlds form Adventure 1 and 06.

Despised being an unfinished mess, I still like the idea's in 06, with all the Side missions, upgrades you can buy, and having 9 different playable characters that all get to play action stages normally. Though the extra playable characters in 06 were lacking in move set.

Boost Sonic just needs levels less 2D.

They should just ditch sonic completely and come up with a character more suitable for 3D action.

FASTER

we need a burning rangers 2

There must be another way

I'm not arguing semantics with you.
Except it already has everything needed to be fun. Just needs to be scaled down and have more obstacles placed.
Because you're wrong and this is Holla Forums.

Unleashed had the best hub worlds. Not tiny like SA1 but not a sprawling mess like 06. Plus the NPC's weren't uncanny and were actually enjoyable.

no, it has everything needed to be novel. It needs good level design to be fun. You'll be entertained for 10 minutes and retire the demo to your "good things sonic fans have done" folder to be forgotten about

You can fix 3D Sonic by hiring competent and passionate fans. Imagine a 3D Sonic game made by a team like Sonic Mania's.

Have the design concept of speed as a reward for good platforming. Knowing the rhythm of when to speed up and slow down to avoid obstacles is something I've yet to see Sonic Team succeed.

At full running speed Sonic controls like a car where you need to drift and break. Also at fast speeds you can run on almost any flat surface no matter orientation until you lose momentum. At "jogging" speed Sonic controls like any 3D platformer. It's a simple concept really that can work in clustered open environments designed like a road map with spaces in between as slower obstacles. You can have fun racing on a road around the thing, or you can slow down, short hop, homing attack across the obstacles for a short cut then spin dash up a ramp across half the map.

As for Sonic regaining monentum have air-dashing and drop dashing for forward momentum. But also have a u-turn move where Sonic can hard break at max speed, turn around, and aim where you want to speed off to. Also bring rolling back as a mechanic that grants you a little protection against ground enemies and obstacles but you sacrifice momentum control until you jump back up.

Element shields can work in 3D even with their special moves. Air-dashing with flame acts as a fireball boost engulfing enemies around you in a vortex of fiery death. Bubble makes splashes on the ground that pushes enemies away at the expense of replacing your ground kick. Electric is double jump, but super useful for casually collecting rings when zipping around high speed. Vanilla shield gives Sonic his "splash" attack from Sonic 3 in air. Also increases the threat range while spin dashing in place.

Also at any time you can "burst" your shield for a high risk and high reward screen clearing AoE attack and "fuck you egghead" moments by spin-dashing then "jumping" (spin dash/air dash is a deticated button this time). The bursts will also be used for puzzles to get into special stages and shortcuts.

Controls are a stick to move, a stick for camera, a trigger to reset camera, a trigger to break/stomp/crouch, a jump button which doubles as homing attack and you can hold to drop dash, a forward dash/kick button that doubles as spin dash while crouching and with break you can u-turn (otherwise boost), and a roll button that puts Sonic at mercy of slopes and tubes for pinball action.

It's shit

I'll be honest I don't see much potential in hiring fans to make 3d sonic good. sonic mania had a good template to go off of but 3d sonic fans aren't left with much. The entire formula needs to be reworked into something new.

are you just pretending to be retarded? Do you honestly lack enough cognition to imagine how these physics (or Sonic Islands physics) could work in a fleshed out game with a more focused level design and proper enemies? This is your last (you), enjoy being filtered faggot.

Add rolling physics and make large levels with multiple paths. Have playable characters other than just Sonic, but don't be like Adventure and make the game completely different for all of them. Basically make a 3D classic game.

how illiterate are you? it says early demo, not tech demo
I'll miss yuo dont go

Except not. Since I played the demo when it first came out I went back to it a good 5 or 6 times. It's that fun to just run around without any limitations and trying to reach the highest points or most interesting locations. Have you tried it?

see
or

At least your taste in smut is good.

The point of the rolling mechanic is that you trade control for speed and attack power but being able to un-roll whenever you want diminishes the importance of knowing when to roll and when not to roll
It's shit

sounds like you're easily entertained, although i once beat crysis so i can't say im not either at times. I've learned to value my time more and be more interested in trying new things since then

its just ironic being called retarded by people who can't read

this is a good argument and it is true. the problem is I don't think it can be effectively translated into a 3d space, I think in order to make a 3d sonic game that plays well you need to change the formula in pretty drastic ways

But in 2D Sonic I can unroll just by jumping and not press down again. Maybe have that to unroll.

Wasn't 3D sonic gameplay already perfected in Crash Bandicoot?

It was never in any way more difficult to control sonic when rolling though. I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I fucking wish I was. It's extremely difficult for me to keep interesting in/find genuine joy in most things these days. Maybe I keep going back to Utopia because its emptiness and simplicity is perfect for fucking around.

Pepsiman is the best Sonic game.

muscle march is also a good sonic game

The point is that you gain speed when you roll down hills and lose speed when you roll any other time. Considering most downward slopes in Sonic lead to flat ground or an incline, giving the player the ability to unroll while on the ground helps keep the pace up.

Forget everything that has been done up until now, go back the original 2D games, and try to capture what made them great in a 3D space. It's still early days for 3D fangames, but they're already closer to capturing the 2D Sonic feel than Sega ever was, and that's quite sad.
One thing I think they should go for, that no one ever seems to bring up, is openness. If you think about it, 2D Sonic was one of the more open platformers of it's time. There should always be multiple paths to take, and hidden treasures to find. Maybe don't go full Mario 64, but find a nice medium. Sonic Utopia could be looked to as a basic groundwork.

This one I feel would help a lot for Sonic.

All of this together would be my dream 3D Sonic game.

just put a two speed gearbox into sonic if you want muh gay brakes

Brakes are good, Sonic has been depicted as being capable of stopping on a dime or at least rapidly losing speed at will on several occasions. I wouldn't want it in an Adventure-style game, just in Unleashed-style games.

Why not both?

then bring back the multiple levels from shadow the hedgehog

No, lets do exactly that. I want a giant obstacle course with multiple forking paths where I can play with the character's physics and use enemies as a means of getting to where I need to go.

Maybe if they were interconected into zones as part of the level itself. And bosses could be in intersecting zones as locks. If this is a more open world Sonic we could bring back Flickies as a side mission. And Chao.

No, you weird faggot. You sound like those kids who keep spouting the boost meme unironically.

Sonic Utopia's level might work pretty well with boost because there are so many gigantic planes of flat ground. I want that now, just to see how it would play.

This does feel more natural with the direction they're going in, but also feels more unfinished. I'll keep an eye on this one. The controls seem to be tighter than utopia's, which is closer to what I'd like as the classic ones did have that as well, just with physics to give it a little push.

Look up "Aero Garden"

It is a test level retard

Do you want to be the little girl?

Unleashed did swarms of enemies right though, if you're talking strictly daytime sections.

This is the only way to implement both a sense of speed and freedom of movement. Just make the environment a bit more natural looking so it doesn't appear as an empty sandbox.

Why are you recommending he grow cannabis? If you're suggesting he's high, he probably already does.

No, you cute little dummy. Here.

fuck that looks awful

I guess. That wasn't really what I meant, though

Add acceleration, remove boost.

Let it die. It's something like 30 years old as a franchise. Let it die. Game series that are less than half that age get screeched at but somehow these colorful childrens platformers get a free pass.

...

Divide the franchise.

Sonic World:
No boost.
Learning how to control and maintain speed is crucial. Levels take time to master but are extremely rewarding when done so.
Large spaces with a focus on platforming (fewer enemies, more obstacles that can put you onto slower paths or ruin your speed).

Metal Sonic World:
Focuses on using and abusing boost.
Movement speed is typically moving at boost speed, slowing down only for turns or enclosed spaces.
Long straight forward areas with obstacles to aim for or dodge. Sharp turns segment the level, with "corners" providing a break where combat, puzzles, or precision platforming can take place.
More of a focus on aerial control and movement.

I actually WHOAAAH'd when he ran through that looping with the behind-the-player camera

The only other way I imagine 3D Sonic games, is for them to be something like Space Harrier or Tempest where you're running down a tube evading incoming hazards, jumping from lane to lane using boost pads once gaps come up, with the center of gravity being the center of the tube, which I guess would rather expand on Boost Sonic games barely having any lanes to alternate between, not like the GOTTA GO FAST sections in those games aren't already straight tubes to begin with..

Sonic Robo Blast is much better than this, but this is a good start.

Take the physics and speed from Adventure 2, the handling from 1 so you have better turning and aerial control, modify the level design to be filled with very large platforms and open spaces when you need to do platforming and tight corridors a la obstacle course when you just want things to be fast (think of the G.U.N. Truck part but with better execution), remove puzzles entirely, make the combat be part of the platforming instead of a random obstacle to avoid, remove all the gay dashing shit, port that shining teleports behind you ring move to another goddamn button instead of having B be the catch-all for non jumping movements, make it possible to choose whether you want Sonic to jog or run (so you can go into platforming sections more easily, otherwise either the running or platforming will suffer), remove the need for 2.5D forced stages, add Super fucking Sonic as an unlockable instead of LIVE AND LEARN HANGING ON THE EDGE OF TOMORROW final boss that is piss easy as it is anticlimatic, remove additional gameplay modes by forcing friends to be just line in Sonic 2-3-&K as in same style different stats and moves and paths, add the mission mode from Sonic Adventure 2 but avoid having the player have to guess where the next obstacle is or learning by dying, add more than just three enemy types, remove the electric shield as it just confuses the hell out of people by removing rings which are supposed to lead the way for the player and add some other speed or jump oriented item like the flame shield, add checkpoints only before platforming sections, keep the final scoring system tied to 40% time, 30% rings and 30% score (instead of it being 10% time, 70% rings and 20% score), make bosses that only use one between platforming and running instead of having to rely on the homing attack for even the silliest of enemies and keep the characters' mouths shut on non-mainline or 1st mission playthroughs.

Oh yeah also do not fucking force the player to stay on rails. Not the obstacle "rails", rather don't force the player to watch a setpiece without any interaction, Sonic 06 is infamous for killing you in scripted events because you can't move away from danger.

Like this?

This is really all I want except more open, like the Sonic OVA.

The solution is to nuke the flat planes, not add nitro.

I was watching a video of Skate the other day, and it occurred to me what a good basis for a Sonic game the skating genre could make. A 3D Sonic level should feel like a skate park. Add some robots to kill, and some death pits, and you're in there.

...

Doom controls.

No shit they are tech demos. Now imagine if someone actually took them and built a game around either of those concepts.

Except I'm not shitting on them for being tech demos I'm shitting on them because they're bad conceptually. It doesn't matter if these tech demos get a game built around them because their core concepts are shit. What's the point of playing a game if the only thing you need to do is push your stick forward?

don't mind me just stopping by with best dev

Then we get into whether Sonic should even be in 3D at all or if so why wouldn't you make it something like SA2. Thing is that a lot Sonic fans want to be able to run around in a wide open world. I don't know personally whether it would make a good game or not but I'd still like to see the attempt. I mean it's not like they haven't experimented in every other way with 3D Sonic games.

Why is this a stipulation? You're crazy if you think old Sonic games were fast.

Bring back a lot of the original concepts of the original games. You know, building momentum, using that to progress and explore. Rolling as a way go gain more speed but at the cost of control. Actual decent physics to sell the momentum, I know that's hard to do in 3D but Sega is doing pretty well for themselves at this point, they can afford it. Maybe supplement Sonic's moveset with some parkour options, since we're in 3D now there's a whole extra axis to explore and he needs some movement options to stand out against Tails & Knuckles (in future games potentially). Most importantly, don't fuck up the level design. No Marble Zone boring as fuck platforming, and probably not CD/Chaotix style insane sprawling levels. The Zone should be a puzzle for the player to solve with their skill at keeping momentum, and should be rewarded for doing cool things.

Add some bonus drift stages and it's gold.

nigger, that's the opposite of it.
You must be getting this confused with all these official games where sonic's just running on a set path.

fug I remember trying to make something like this when I was young.
I wish I wasn't so lazy then

I seriously hope you aren't this retarded.

With how much people seem to bitch about it you all seem to want this shit in all videogames nowadays. How about Sega just give 3D Sonic to developers that actually like Sonic? Sumo Digital and the Mania guys did good shit.

I loved going fast for all of half a second before slamming into a hazard or enemy.

Reminds me of the sonic boom intro.
And that's a really good thing

*sonic cd.
I keep forgetting those aren't interchangeable anymore.

You can have open level design without going full open world. I don't think anyone is suggesting Sonic: Breath of the Wild..

I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices this shit. Holla Forums bitches and bitches about how open world games are garbage specifically because of a large, empty world being the priority during development, yet every time there's a dream game thread, the first thing every last fucking post says is "open world." Holla Forums is full of hypocrites that are tsundere for open world games.

Please no. Just enough space to be able to stretch your legs a bit.

Actually let the player move like outside of a fucking rail/corridor and let us explore freely for once

OK, freeze frame. How do you define "open world"? For example would you consideer classic Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest games to be open world?
We need to get a handle on this shit before it becomes the next "2.5D" and no one has any clue what anyone is talking about.

A good way to do it might be to return to the Sonic Adventure style hub world. Only fill it with actual enemies and stuff that makes it more than a glorified level select. And from there you would access more guided levels.

You know damn well what the context for open world is.

It's not always fully agreed on. Some people consider Mario 64 or Deus Ex open world games (I don't).

Normalfags are not people.

People on Holla Forums were calling Mario Odyssey open world.

you mean sonic 06

No in fact I don't. Do you mean Skyrimjob-like level design? Because just because a game has more exploration than CoD or FF13 doesn't make it the same thing as Fallout 4 tier level design. It's not a binary choice. There are levels of gradation.
You could easily argue that any game that has more direction and constriant than Minecraft can't qualify as an "open world" game. I don't agree but if you don't have a solid and concise and widely agreed upon definition then you fall into the same trap as "Metroidvania", "Roguelike", or "Souls-like".

No, that's still a glorified level select. The overworld should be a level in itself, like a Metroid game almost.

Make it more like the special stages from 2D games. Why the fuck should I have to hold up for hours on end? Going fast should be the default.

Honestly I've been thinking along these lines for a long time. Also quit making the objective "reach the goal" 100% of the time. Take a note from Mario 64 and have multiple objectives/missions in each area.

The biggest problem with 3D Sonic right now is that they keep
taking away more and more control form the player, and you want to take away the ability to stop?

Name 3 places in any sonic game where you have an actual reason to not be accelerating that don't involve some timed crusher bullshit

Jump pads in SA1, Poll spin jumps in SA2, Most boss fights, But that's besides the point.
Do you remember the Mach speed sections in 06, or Sonic and the secret rings? A special stage is one thing but how can constant movement be done well for a whole game.

user, I played through S3&K twice this week because I got bored and my friend was raising Chao in SA2 to finish 100%ing it
Off the top of my head:
And that's from the best 2D game. Sonic 1 has Marble zone in its entirety.

DARN, WE'RE NOT GONNA MAKE IT, LETS SPEED UP

He was right

That post was genuine. Because even in game files of sonic forces there are files titled "sonic_wars" and shit.

I wonder who he was? I guess he might be connected to the VR idea or something.
I kinda wish that he come to us to give us more info

I say they should implement the parkour system and expand on it, for more flexibility.

Throwing it out was a big mistake, honestly.

Sonic Forces was going to pull a Mega Man X7 and have Modern Sonic be unplayable for half the game, but they changed it at the last second. That's why Modern Sonic's first Green Hill level is full of shit desert garbage even though Eggman hasn't done anything yet.

All I want, and probably what most fans want, is Sonic Adventure 3. It's pretty obvious: go back to the old formula, smoothen the rough edges, and for fuck's sake get rid of the stupid boost gameplay.

Also, get Richard Jacques to do the music.

Playing a 3D sonic game should be like a Half-Life speedrun with a graphical redesign to make fact platforming easier.

I wish for adventure style but nope, boost gameplay with short level make me a dull boy. and the script and localization is shit, I swear pontac and graff are really half assing it over just getting a fucking paycheck. fucking tortured? really?! I saw better writing in sonic 06! just fucking hell..

Pontac and Graff go out of there way to know as little about Sonic as they can and make stories as uninteresting as possible.
I get why colors was less serious, because after Shadow, 06, and unleashed, maybe it was time to have a less serious game, But now it's just boring.
The should just get Ian Flynn, He's seems to be the only one who's been able to get Sonic right.

wew
e
w

let's
GET
MOOOOOVING

Just bring back the SA2 gameplay, make other characters play like Sonic with different abilities, like in the old games, and don't fucking give it to Sonic Team. There's nothing wrong with a 3D game not playing like a 2D game in the same series.

but that was objectively garbage? I'm not even being facetious. Even among most SA fans there is generally an agreement that SA1 is superior in terms of Sonics gameplay. Better in both level design and jenky physics. In many ways SA2 was just proto-boost formula but with a plethora of boost pads and automated speed sections. Why not finally fix 3D sonic as opposed to trying to polish a turd? Hell even more Boost gameplay with improved levels would be preferable to another adventure game. Do you really think most CY+++ Sonic team developers can even deliver on something even as good (for the sake of argument) as Sonic Adventure?

Wait, I got it. What if we add wall collision damage and falling damage? No one will ever say 'hold right to win' again!

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that SA1 was better than 2. Outside of having more floating platforms and being full of bottomless pits, I can't really think of any ways SA1's level design is superior to SA2's. Don't try to tell me SA1 wasn't full of boost pads and automated speed sections. Shit, there's a bunch of them in Windy Valley, the second level of Sonic's campaign. As for the physics, are there really any places in either game where Sonic's physics are relevant to getting around like in the 2D games?
I don't think the Boost levels can be improved. The big problem with them is that Sonic moves too fast to platform in 3D. I hate the constant switching to 2D, but they have to do it otherwise they have fucking nothing.
I never said they could.

Everyone worthwhile and intellectually honest says SA1 is better. Especially in terms of physics, map design and control. The only thing people often site about 2 as being "better" is the chow gardens and overall plot.
I know but your assuming sega would allow another dev team would to touch their aborted baby is wishful thinking.
You Sonic Forces shit level design would like to have a word with your assumption. Generations is a good game, far better then all the Adventure games combined. If Forces was at least as good as Generations their would be no drama but instead of improving the formula they took a step back into the Realm of Autism. Hopefully they never go back to the levels of Austistic that was the Adventure formula.

The original Genesis games have diverse platforming pathways for its level design and people like Egoraptor complain its too confusing because it forces you to think of ways to maintain speed besides holding right to win.

Woah let's not get ahead of ourselves, while I agree that Generations was a great game. It was NOT better than Sonic Adventure 1.

Utopia is an experiment, the game will be less open than the demo but more open than the Adventure games. I thing Lange and his team said that they're experimenting with bringing 2D Sonic into the 3D Plane, basically doing what SEGA wanted to do with the original Adventure, but couldn't due to hardware limitations. He even admitted Adventure was an amazing feat at the time.

Fark looks amazing, but I wish there was some better visual polish to the game. Although the fact that he's making a game like Fark is amazing in itself.

Most of Sonic's moves have been about building speed quickly, IE: The spindash or the boost. However, when going super-fast it's very difficult to control Sonic accurately.

Maybe the issue can be solved with a change of perception: What if, rather than Sonic 'speeding up', the world slows down around him for a limited amount of time?

Suppose you're running through a boggy rainforest and come to a lake with a waterfall flowing into it. You have a few options:
Or

A game about going fast without some degree of slow-mo for going REALLY FAST always struck me as an obvious combination. I wonder why I haven't heard of one before?

Sonic Adventure 1 was a janky unfinished flaming pile of garbage.

Try playing the original in demul at x2-x3 res instead of a shitty port.

The basic design philosophy of Sonic doesn't work both slow or in 3D.
Sega need to understand this and look at everything Mania did right, then expand on it.

Homing jump is the single worst thing in Sonic.

epic

Don't kid yourself Sonic Adventure 1 was garbage.

I'm 100% sure Bubsy has took a try in one of theses things you have mentioned, and it looks like it's REALLY not worthy at all.

2D Sonic is good enough. It's 3D Sonic we're talking about.

Either go back to the Adventure gameplay or bring Generations' director and level designers back. That's it.

I think I've come to terms as to why Sonic Forces had such abysmal level design.

In 2006, Sonic Team was split into two teams. One team was to work on a launch title for the Wii, Sonic and the Secret Rings. The other half was left to finish Sonic '06. These two teams have been kept separated since. The '06 team went on to make games like Unleashed and Colors, while the second team went on to work on Sonic and the Black Knight, and the Mario/Sonic Olympic Games spin-off franchise. Looking at pic related, I went ahead and looked into the records of the Forces level designers. Not only are the amount of level designers much smaller, but they're also relatively new to their work.

Jyunpei initially worked on the storybook Sonic games as a game designer. Linear games, on-rails gameplay, mission-based levels. Jyunpei was also a planner for Sonic Colors, and a level designer for Lost World and Forces.

Shoko has a smaller resume than Jyunpei Ootsu, having only been credited as a game designer for Mario/Sonic at the Sochi Olympic Games, and a level designer for Forces.

I have no idea who this fuck is, but looking up the name, it matches with a level designer from The Last Guardian. There's a chance it could be a coincidence or the same person, but I have no idea. Either way, they're new to Sonic.

What's interesting is that these three people all come from the portion of Sonic Team that's worked with the Wii titles. And furthermore, none of them worked on any of the "Boost Formula" titles (save for Jyunpei, who was one of 6 game planners for Colors). So essentially there were three people have never worked on a boost game making a boost game. What I have still yet to figure out is what the former half of Sonic Team is currently working on, and why the shittier half is taking their spot.

How is it so hard for Sega to come up with good ideas for Sonic when we've already got gold in almost every thread?

Y'know, I was wondering why Sonic has the double jump in some games but not others and why Sonic's model in Forces and Lost World look more like the Colors one than the Unleashed one, but this explains everything. No wonder Classic Sonic plays nothing like he did in Generations, the Colors guys rebuilt him from the ground up with Lost World physics without consulting the other team. That gives me some hope that whatever the other guys are doing turns out much better.

Mix of time trials and exploration and a level select to explore time trial areas.
Use the environment to your advantage to get from point A to point B before variable X happens. Some enemies shooting at you but obviously missing. What I mean is you would use the momentum from a ramp or intentionally fall/run down to get a short cut or a boost of some kind to beat the area faster. Than a level select to find a sweet spots out of range to explore in
Change his running speed in explore-able areas to Adventure 2 speeds or less for the purpose of spelunking of some kind. Maybe natural ruins that sonic cannot destroy for being too valuable so he intentionally reduces his speeds there. Boss fights can happen in arena sections here for tension. Maybe boss fight collateral will lead to a new section to explore.

More like Classic Sonic plays nothing like he did in the Genesis games and Mania. There's no point to include him in further modern games if Sonic Team aren't gonna bother to recreate the classic physics from the classic games. Since Generations, he feels much more like a chore to complete than an alternate playstyle to experience. In fact, I would say the Adventure games made a better job at presenting alternate playstyles.

Classic Sonic is a mistake. He's nothing but a form of marketing to target and attract old fans of Sonic. And now you understand why are there so much Generations mods for Modern Sonic than for Classic Sonic. I mean, Modern Sonic already has more 2D sections than 3D sections (in a "3D" Sonic game"). Why does Classic Sonic still keep coming back? Holy shit, just tell him to fuck off. Enough of nostalgia, goddamn.

Question: How would a 3D collect-a-thon Sonic work? If you're running across the world there has to be missions that either set out a path for you to follow or motivation to explore. Also there has to be something else for rings to do.

Get rid of boost and un-nerf the spin dash. Go play SA 1&2. Notice how the spindash can make you go really far at the speed of fast? Bring that back.

Sonic Utopia is great because it's basically Sonic the OVA the game. and the physics are good

Oh fuck no!
Why can't we have a fucking SONIC game that just focuses on sonic. Get rid of tails and knux and amy and all that shit. tails and amy may be kept if they are non-playable and their lines are kept to a minimum, but knux is on his island protecting the master emerald, leave him alone. Shadow should have stayed dead after SA2 and all the other characters introduced in SA2 should have STAYED in SA2.
I'm not saying there can't be more characters, but don't focus on them as much as SEGA has been.
Imagine playing SA2, but now they're all Sonic/Shadow levels, no more treasure hunting or shitty mechs. Oh and there's 3 times as many of them. If SEGA wasn't ADD and could focus on making a game with only one game mechanic, that's what you would have gotten.

See this is EXACTLY why the boost mechanic is a bad idea. It gives you a bullshit "fastest speed" and basically turns the game into temple run. Sonic is a PLATFORMER, that you can do fast. Not an autorunner with some platforming added after the fact.

I would actually play both those games. But the first one sounds better

SRB is fun in a "what the fuck am I playing" kind of way, not a "this is actually good" kind of way.

Watch a Banjo and kazooie speedrun at 2x speed.

I have a nice hand out for sega devs tuning in.
Sonic spin dash is some gay shit in the 3D games, have to stop in place to use it and it's slow as shit, make activate able anytime to go into to a roll and make it speed up down hills then after pressing it again he uncurls and keeps that speed he built up. Clearly have the initial charge slow him down but stopping to a crawl to activate the ability is worthless.
Maybe after a drift sonic can chain that into a spin dash charge to get his speed back after a tight drift.
I hate how this shit has worked, hit enemy and now you've stopped to a halt, imagine if it just worked like a homing jump where sonic used to change trajectory onto an enemy to use as a platform to add horizontal lift to his vertical speed, maybe if the enemy tanks the hit (needs more then a single) he rebounds off like normal but if he killed them he sound continue on as if he simply jumped on them.
Imagine a level where it adds a segment to build up speed around hazards then it ends with a drop, but before that drop you could jump homing an enemy and if you built enough speed the vertical speed carried you off to an extra area with more goodies.
So playing safe you get by find but being that rad dude who went fast through all that you can launch off an enemy at the end with the homing attack and all that speed you built and get rewards be being the baller you were.
Stomp, slide, spin dash, light speed attack
All of these shits need to be on different buttons, it only makes dumb hazards out of what could be used for cooler things.
Slide makes spin attack worse by sharing the same buttons but being context sensitive.
Stomp makes light speed attack a fucking guessing game for if you'll trigger one or the other leading to dumb deaths.
even a saturn controller could support all this with jump still being a thing so no excuse.
Which ever of you devs also put boost and homing attack on the same same waggle motion in unleashed Wii needs to be fired.
Know that boost, maybe you can add a new move which fuses it with the homing attack so sonic proceeds to lock on to multiple targets like in lost world and use his boost meter to rocket from enemy to enemy ending on the rebound sonic currently does regularly in the games now. rewarding keeping it on hand before enemy encounters by offering a more powerful out to the enemies.
Maybe Sonic can have that wind attack he randomly has in some games and when he was a boss in rush.
Mashing homing attack is retarded as a mechanic.
The amount you get from rings shouldn't be enough to keep it filled, enemy chains in the way shouldn't fill the meter by a third a piece.
At most these should maintain the meter in it's current state, reward additional meter for smooth drifts, going out of the way for capsules putting you in additional harms way and those trick segments you like, offering a refill in a level transition like that is good.
If you have to have them, make them more application based and not means to an end, you shouldn't have like 1 or 2 a level and never see them for the rest of the game, make them found and then make them have uses in the level but in just regular play, (Burst with horizontal launches which can just be useful in any platforming) using hover to take some alt path now other then later.

I want to add something on wisps since it hit me right after posting.
Sonic saved those lil shits, why is he collecting them in levels, how about instead of using them as mid stage power ups, you equip 1 as you possibly unlock it in the game and all well as boost energy you can find generic power tanks to use with the wisp you have equipped to use it's power then.
Then you just have it and can then people can replay levels with different wisps and see how that changes their route and way of doing the level.

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The design choices in 1 are better than 2, despite 2 being the technically superior game. For example, treasure hunting in 2 requires you to know the map's ins and outs on your very first playthrough, which is frustrating. The hint system is nice in that it feels less like you're moving towards an objective and more like you're hunting down objects, but the radar system is absolute dogshit. Instead of telling which of the three pieces you're next to, it only lights the first one in your batch, meaning that you have to backtrack for absolutely no reason, and I really mean no reason since the emerald pieces are generated in pretty much equally distanced sides of a triangle last time I checked. The shooting stages are also a big downgrade from Gamma's, in that instead of giving an alternate way to play the main levels they're just shallow shooting galleries where your main enemy is the camera rather than the obstacles or platforming. The only two times the system actually works is in Weapons Bed and Cosmic Wall, the former because you have shit shooting at you and use the shooting mechanic to their full potential, which is cathartic, and the latter because it optimizes the platforming style of Shooting characters, as in, floating and gliding and flying around in space. The running stages are perfect barring some scripted events and the B button doing every possible action.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. The wisps should have stayed in Sonic Colors. The focus should be on the core gameplay of gofast, roll, spindash, and jump. Not shitty gimmicks where you turn into a drill.

To be fair it was like 4 or 5 autists, and they had been dicking around with the idea for a while. But yeah, I've lost a LOT of hope in the Nips game companies over the last few years. What with Squeenix, SEGA, and Nintendo all collectively shitting themselves over the last 2 years and all.

Y'know that they already fix the adventure gameplay right?

Why do they keep bringing back the wisps? Is it just that they have no idea why people liked Sonic Colours?

Are you unaware of what a tech demo is?

Sonic Heroes could be decent, if it wasn't for the retarded "character swap" thing. Like, NO I DON'T WANT TO PLAY WITH KNUCKLES NOW, I WAS HAVING FUN WITH SONIC, JUST LET ME PLAY AS I WANT, DAMNIT

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It's been mentioned before a good 3d Sonic game would have the feel and mechanics of SA2/Unleashed but with multiple paths for failing to complete jumps and challenged. They actually did do this in the SA2 games but only sparsely. I think the best example of this would be the later stages like Crazy Gadget. They probably didn't do this more, however, because it would increase the cost of developing each stage per alternate route and most people are going to aim for the optimal route anyway.

the character swap thing wasn't the worst part of Hero's. The part that killed heroes is the boring bloated level design. The game hits a unfun wall at Casino Park. Plus its hardly an example of good physics or polished collision. The amount of glitches in Hero's is unacceptable. Its not as bad as the critics at the time made it out to be and had some fun elements but it's also not a hill worth dying on. If its an example of the "adventure" formula at its best then the adventure formula is irredeemable.

Sonic World is easily the best adventure game right now. Almost perfected the 3D sonic formula. There are small problems to handle like homing attack range, map designs but other than that, maps and characters are pretty good. What I enjoyed the most is, it doesn't really feel repetitive because there are lots of maps, and characters. Some characters have basically same movement sets and some of them are basically shit though. I just hope we get more and more levels with this project and get better boss fights. It's hard to take you guys seriously when you argue about best adventure game, fan made games and how to make a 3D sonic game if you haven't played it yet. It's a great proof that you can make great adventure style game. Think about it if this kind of game was an official game from a big industry not from sega

because its garage

Uh they had it perfect with this one but then they started doing meth again

Sega cycle different level designers in and out of the series which is why you have good sonic games like Generations followed but by turds like Forces.

Stop shilling this garbage. Sonic World is objectively the worst 3D Sonic fan game.

Theoretically speaking, I think this could be a neat idea for Shadow. Chaos Control to slow time.

I also don't really like how games revolve around boosting, but maybe throwing it out completely is a waste. Maybe it could be a special move for Metal Sonic, what with the jet turbine on his back. Sonic could have a moveset more like the classic games or Adventure, or something.

I think World can be fun and has potential but a lot of the levels released in R8 are bugged to hell and back. They have a lot of shit to fix before this comes anywhere close to being the perfect 3D Sonic.

have you made a single good post in this entire thread?

I think boosting can be a neat thrill, but the games rely way too much on it. What if we restricted its use to make the odd chance you can boost more meaningful? Perhaps a shield that lets you boost until you take a hit, or the super sneaker monitor returns and lets you boost until it expires. That way you only have a chance to use a boost when the level is built around it, instead of just tearing through the whole level.

Does Fark pass as a good Sonic Game?

I think that they need to get a new engine, they been straining it too much that it's affecting the GPU in certain mainframes especially when it has mods

How shit is it?

it's fun
other than minor bugs and shitty boss fights, I don't see any problem as I said. Unless you want to play boost sonic, there isn't any problem in this game.

It's all over the place. There's a bunch of really good levels, but then there's too many shitty, broken ones. Horrible framerate, falling through the floor, all kinds of problems like that.

Since you just pick whatever level you want and there's no real progression aside from unlocking characters with emblems, you can technically just ignore all the bad levels… but they're still in the game, and they need to be fixed. That has yet to happen.

I personally think that Sonic Forces is 3D Sonic at its best.

I think it has some good ideas. I expect them to throw most of them out the window by the next game, though.

I was posting bait. Sonic Forces is trash.

I have an idea for a sonic game.

Sonic Chrono Continuum (aka Sonic Chrono Adventure Sonic CD 2 Hybrid Fusion)

-Takes place on an island could be Sky Island or Angel Island or somewhere else
-Metal Sonic shows up again somehow
-Plot has to do with time travel and is related to Sonic CD
-This game is a collect-a-ton/metroidvania hybrid
-Rings are now a health meter that drains over time think Shinobi for the PS2 but with Sonic elements.
-The goal is to survive and not die until an item is found
-Combat is redone to be more challenging
-No boost to win formula
-You need 120 Silver Rings to fight Metal Sonic/Eggman or whoever the antagonist will be.

Now I am imagining a 2D Sonic X Wonderboy/Adventure Island hybrid.

As long as they're still abundant in the levels.One of the best things about the ring system was how it encouraged experimentation with your speed because you don't have to worry about gradually losing your health as you travel through the stages. Also the mechanic of holding onto one ring makes the player feel more active in trying to control how many hitpoints they have. Maybe make it that without rings you still have some sort of health system that regenerates after finding cover from further damage. Or maybe do an inverse like Halo where if you get hit it goes to your regenerative health bar. And if it reqches zero you start losing rings and you die when you get hit with no rings and so on.

Sonic should control like 3D Mario, but have a shoulder button that adds extra acceleration to his movement depending on how far you hold it in, kind of like a racing game. It would give the player more control, make it feel more like a platformer, and be less intrusively game mechanic than a bunch of boost pads or boost meter or whatever.

FUCKING STOP
SONIC COLORS IS TOTAL SHIT

The start of the wisps point is if they have to have them, I'm not trying to go "lol fuck everything you do make mania 3 you hacks" I'm trying to take what they do now and make it work past simply scrapping it all.

Go play Sonic Robo Blast 2

For the same reason they keep bringing Shadow back. SA2 was popular, and SEGA is too autistic to realize that people liked it for the gameplay and level design and considered the story to be a cherry on top. Instead they figured "Fuck, those americans really love this new edgy character. Let's put him in everything from now on." Sonic colors managed to pull of the boost formula relatively well, and people were much more lenient on the wisps than they were the werehog, go SEGA figured that THE ONLY reason Sonic Colors did well is because of the wisps. So now they put it in everything hoping the fans will like it even though they have no idea what the fans actually want.

Worse than fanboys would proclaim, but better than detractors will screech. If you think of it as a cheap SA2 knockoff and only play the good levels, then it's fine.

That sounds super fucking gay.

In that case I suppose it's not a completely horrible idea. I would still much rather scrap the wisps all together. Leave the shooting stages in SA1, Leave Shadow in SA2, leave the werehog in Unleashed (which they did, THANK GOD), and leave the wisps in Colors. I'm not opposed to a gimmick or two, but don't make them the focus, and don't run them into the ground. Gimmicks are like mints, you pop one or two throughout the day to keep things fresh, but if you keep it up all the fucking time your teeth are gonna rot and you're gonna get a stomach ache.

Man, fuck Sonic. Just bring back Adventure Island. Totally underrated platforming series.

I was just browsing when I found this. If this is true, this explains so much and is also pretty depressing. I'm starting to get the feeling that despite the PR work and games like Mania, SEGA is turning into a sinking ship of some sort. Like just some jumping board to get to Nintendo. It's really sad because SEGA was its own company with its own identity, what with it being more experimental. Now I really want Headcannon or at least another studio built up from fans to handle 3D Sonic or all the future Sonic games.

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Truly sad. However, this means that most people that understand Sonic will be with Nintendo. And if Sega goes down even further, Nintendo could buy off some of their IPs. What are the odds that one day Nintendo will split the timeline and be the ones making Sonic games?

That picture makes me sad

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Fucking fire all of sonic team and replace them with people who actually give a fuck. I refuse to believe they actually spent 4 god damn years developing Sonic Forces.

The fuck are you even talking about, the peanut gallery barely even shows up anymore, at most it's just tails, amy to a lesser extent & the occasional appearance by knuckles

Well according to 's pic they'll just work for nintendo instead.

You know every game from Unleashed up to Lost World has done exactly what you said with the characters right?
And if you mean ONLY Sonic in any way, shape or form, there's always Sonic 4 Episode 1 :^)

Fuck, this was meant for

Why yes, concept artists work for multiple companies. They're all free lance.

The secret of the Sonic franchise is that it was never good and you only liked it as a kid because Sonic was a 2kewl4skewl character. Once you grew up, if you didn't have any nostalgia for the IP, you realized how shit it was. Otherwise, you'll constantly talk about those few good Sonic games from your childhood that were never good to begin with.

Just making a good 3D platformer would fix sonic. Roll it all back to the PS2 era of 3D platformers and do that. Keep his homing attack and bouncing off enemies to cross gaps but remove the insta death from it.

If you're going to do Sonic fast then you have to completely change the game to be open world instead of trying to design small linear running levels like in Unleashed. Actually do werehog levels but as normal sonic and you would have a decent little sonic game design wise.

Either way drop the speed autism unless you go full open world and make it so Sonics traveling huge distances at light speed where terrain.

Plot wise just do a basic kidnap story. Sonics friends are kidnapped by Robotnik and you have to defeat a robot version of them to save them. People like the metal characters so use them. Once rescued they work on their own objectives to help fight robotnik and you can see them running around the world. They will want to sell DLC so each characters story is DLC completely split from the Sonic story. Knuckles isn't as fast so he can't run around the world, instead he's exploring an underground system. Tails has to collect parts for his wrecked plane. They're usually on ledges Sonic would struggle to get to due to the speed he would need making it very difficult to stop right where he wanted.

tl;dr Stop trying to make a 2D game into a 3D game. Use the advantages of a 3D game and make your speed become your primary fast travel method. Maybe even map it to a button which launches into super speed mode and disables all the collisions with terrain outside of the ground (so you don't run into a tree and die on the spot).

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Sonic gameplay at it's worst was unremarkable, functional platforming, and it had the most stylish aesthetics and some of the best music of the 16-bit era. Maybe it was never as good as some people think, but to say it was never good at all is just being dramatic.

And ==SOMEHOW== the fandom just got itself a lot more worst. a nip just made a game that act a backdoor and DRM that, when using cheat engine. can make a game spooky. but that just the cover of it, while uninstalled and reinstalled make it even worst!

hooktube.com/watch?v=s_5IS7nWKas

That seems pretty fucking cool actually
That nip is alright

boost was not a good mechanic

You're not boosting as it does it now. It's fast travel within Sonic's world

Name another platformer that combines turning into a weapon when you jump and uses momentum to maneuver levels with multiple and creative pathways.