Uneasy topic for leftists. I suggest serious disussion, if you can.
How easy is evolving from 'I want to make everyone happy' to 'I want to kill everyone'?
What you think, why people like Pol Pot or Mao took power and builded so murderous regimes? And why so many communists was with them and weren't critical to them, obediently carrying out the orders?
And why respected Western intellectuals like Sartre or Chomsky denied the crimes, undermined credibility of witnesses, bleaching all the evil that was perpetrated by their comrades from the East? They obviously were aware what they're doing, because at the same time they were able to lead exceedingly sharp criticism and very subtle analysis of capitalism?
marxism-leninism was a mistake and pol pot was a CIA plant
Hunter Howard
The second you remove democracy there is nothing to stand in the way. Even with democracy probably many people will still be killed. It is the only thing though that holds us back from a total bloodbath
Hunter Nelson
only tankies defend or deny this shit
Kayden Anderson
Easy topic for me: state communism was garbage, Satre and Chomsky held some amount of spite towards fascism and capitalism and had an idealistic desire for a counterbalance and an aim to contrast western propaganda which took the opposite extreme, dogma and authoritarianism are bad.
Jaxson Martin
...
Evan Gray
Exactly - garbage.
Michael Thompson
how can you build a new future without unity? obviously the ones who are against you must be dealt with
Jackson Phillips
Not everyone. Just capitalists, reactionaries and imperialists.
Juan Lopez
I wouldn't blame it on lack of democracy, because there was many non-democratic and authoritarian regimes that weren't commiting such a crimess on large scale.
For example, most of European old monarchis wasn't so greedy and murderous as Leopold II Koburg, king of the Belgians - they were obvoiusly often cruel, but rarely as cruel as former anti-sistem revolutionaries. Pinochet killed several orders of magnitude less peope through all the time he had power, that was swallowed by only one construction of Baikal–Amur railways under Stalin.
Trotsky said somewhere that "they'll make system which wasn't dreamed even for the greatest despots of the East". And indeed, they did. Only colonialism is this level of atrocities that can be compared to bolshevik, maoist or red khmer activity
Parker Reed
it's difficult to say how much of the atrocities can be attributed to revolution itself and how much can be attributed to bad decisions. We should be clear that Lenin at least meant well. The fact that things went to shit wasn't because Lenin was a bad guy who just wanted power over Russia. The main issue was that he followed bad tactics in Europe which left Russia isolated and left them with no viable path forward.
Every death is regrettable. I don't think there is a such thing as an excusable death here. However we must keep in mind that the capitalist system will continue to churn out more and more dead until we are finally able to overcome it. We are left in a position where there is no way forward without a death toll and serious risk.
no, not really.
Jacob Hughes
The bottom line for any state is self-perpetuation. For a third world country, industrializing its industry is essentially equivalent to declaring war on global capitalism, and so the states necessarily existed precariously. Ironically, because the states became so expansive, they also became bureaucratic and inefficient. Any state will become brutally repressive to sustain itself, but for these national-liberation projects it became an immediate reality.
Elijah Jones
But people you say about weren't capitalists, reactionaties or imperialists. They were devoted disciples of Karl Marx who spent all their life in the name of revolution.
For example, Dzierzhynsky was tortured in the most sophisticated and cruel way when he was in prison. Tsarist police raped his beloved, which had nothing to do with revolutionary activities, before his eyes, when he was in ward. Even such things didn't cause that they abandoned the fight.
From our armchair perspective, we have absolutely no right to deny them name of the sincere and devoted revolutionaries. Most of us are noone compared to them.
Elijah Rivera
Also, what's the final numbers of people you could sacrifice if you would be sure that this will bring full communism?
Isaiah Carter
If communism would be guaranteed, I'd gladly hypothetically press a button that kills 5 billion people including myself.
Lincoln Williams
But isn't starting a revolution fully knowing that that revolution will just rape the economy to death, isn't that a bad decision too?
Or making a centralized economy? Those can not ever work, so that's a bad decision too and then you end up with millions of people starving for no reason, millions who would still be poor under capitalism but at least they wouldn't literally be starving to death.
Nicholas Nelson
TBH capitalists created more mass starving than communists because application of their ideology.
Levi Foster
why even live?
Carson Collins
I don't think the animators who actually made Frozen, make so much money themselves
but there's always a toil to pay that's the toil of progress, with communism you can pay the toil but you end up with more dead in any given time period than you would with capitalism, and you don't get any progress at all.
Capitalism comes in, kills you, rapes you, enslaves you, AND still somehow you fucking end up better than you were before capitalism, in every single objective way.
Matthew Russell
you can ask the same question to any regime; why did so many romans go along with or personally carry out the empire's crimes? why did so many germans go along with or personally carry out the nazi party's crimes? why do so many americans go along with or personally carry out the u.s. government's crimes? why do drug cartel members go along with or personally carry out their cartels' crimes? etc.
maybe human beings are just very violent; and all it requires to trigger it is the right circumstances and environment. but i doubt there are any easy answers
Nathan Fisher
The so-called crimes of communism are nothing in comparison with the crimes of capitalist regimes. Our problem with them should not be in getting caught up with petty things such as standard of living or supposed crimes, but asking ourselves why wasn't communism established and what lessons can we learn from this?
Hudson Anderson
Dumb question, you can never be 100% sure until it's arrived
Nolan Garcia
I hate Patreon so much.
Jonathan Russell
Kulaks did it.
Leo Brooks
He said Pol Pot. You have no fucking idea who he is you fucking idiot. Fuck you, you champagne-sipping Communist.
Nicholas Murphy
Maoism is not communism.
Liam Russell
This makes me want to career switch. I'm decent with a pencil and could get good in a year or two. Hate colouring though.
Less exploitative than going through publishers and producers though. Now, the ideology behind individual patreon users? Sure.
Elijah Richardson
On the fundamentalist Communist question, the only Communism true would be those entirely reliant and in no way upon any other, the writings of Marx.
Lefties/Communists never know stuff. They're always a bunch of stupid fucking losers.
Owen Parker
(checks the time) HOLY FUCK LEFTISTS ARE FUCKING STUPID
Christopher Cruz
we have good enough infrastructure to prevent this. You no longer live in time when ordering corn from africa means sending comrade Ivan on few weeks long trip across the planet.
this is some serious ideological trash
Nolan Jackson
i fucked up linking, see
Justin White
...
Nathan Torres
Look, I just want to slowly tourture the creatures that fucked up my life until they die from the pain. Is that too much to ask?
Nathaniel Myers
We're already fucking angry and depressed with how much humanity continually fucks itself over. It just requires us to give up trying to make things better and let our anger boil over. I've fantasized plenty of times about violently torturing every human to death. I'm good at separating fantasy from reality though.
