Mouse thread

After ~8 years with my Logitech G400 it finally got to the point where it can't right-click anymore, the button won't raise high enough after clicking anymore. I don't know what the hell is considered a good mouse nowadays, but most of them are covered in buttons or look like Transformers rejects.

Whatever, talk about what kind of mice you use and why it's superior.

Other urls found in this thread:

logicalincrements.com/mouse
amazon.com/VicTsing-Wireless-Portable-Receiver-Adjustable/dp/B013WC0P2A/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1501265612&sr=8-5&keywords=mouse
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

have you taken it apart and cleaned it out?

Buy a trackball, faggot.

The part that clicks is just a single piece of plastic, it's just gotten worn down over the years and lost its elasticity.

The Logitech MX518 is pretty good too. I got a couple of them after my G400 died. It's more or less the same mouse, just with a different finish.

Actually, I think it may have a little better performance than the G400 did. I'm certainly not disappointed in them, since they have the same shape/buttons.

I got myself a Mionix Castor for 80 bucks, but despite how good the mouse felt (plus its god-tier sensor) the scroll wheel had issues to the point where it needed constant maintenance to remain functional. So I got myself a good deal on a Logitech G402 (30 bucks) and shit handles like a dream. Only downside would be lack of a braided cable.

when my g400s died i bought G502


looks almost like G502 but i cant live without the infinite scroll wheel that shit is adictive

I on the other hand disliked that metallic scroll wheel, and infinite scrolling was not what I had in mind for a good mouse (pg-up/dn and home/end keys exist). Plus, the ergonomics are just off enough so it fucks with my claw grip.

G403 or Zowie EC1/2-A - good ergonomics and top sensors (3366 and 3310, respectively). The Zowie mice come in two sizes, depending on your preferences. Currently I used a modified G402 for work (removed some side buttons and the sniper button) - it's comfy and accurate enough if you put the tape mod on it to reduce liftoff distance.

I used to have the g300, twice. And I loved them, but the problem is they die fast. Both of them died in like 8 months. The mouse keys just stopped working. I am looking at amazon reviews and others seem to have the same problem. Not even the g300s could fix this.

So I am currently using the g502, and it's decent but I must say I prefer the g300. It sucks that it has a shitty build quality and dies so fast, but it was very fun to use. And I do miss the extra keys it had.

Wait, is that button on the bottom with the aimer on the g402 dedicated to a aim bot button for modern Battle Royale games? Thats fucking hilarious.

Had that mouse and it started disconnecting randomly after about a year of usage and collected grime big time. I got fucking memed big time by it - now own a logitech g403 and no issues here, great mouse.

I love the Logitech G Pro. It's small size takes some getting used to, but it's great for claw grips.

I use a claw/fingertip style, probably a small mice even though I have medium to large hands. Any tips?

The (((Logitech G403))) is the recently released successor to the G400. Check it out.
Otherwise, (((Steelseries Rival 300))) or the (((Zowie EC1-A))) are the best on the market.
The (((Razer Deathadder))) is actually a great mouse but the price:lifespan ratio makes it an awful purchase.

Trust gxt155 I picked this one at random, this is the 4th mouse in the refundtour due to them all breaking within the 2y warranty. So far I'm happy with this one. The extra buttons on the side are helpful in some games and still no dysfunctionalities after 1y of heavy use which I couldn't say from some other logitechs.

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Pretty happy with my G502, had it for two or three years now. It has a bit of that obnoxious abstract sharp geometry bayformers #gaymer design going on but it's not too severe. Only complaint is the side buttons are kind of awkward.

you realize you can toggle between free scroll and regular

claw works really well for me
what is your hand size, i have 19.5 CM and both claw and palm work amazingly well.

I'll keep an eye on this brand. Thanks for sharing, user!

Look, we see you got Hitler dubs, but were all the (((echoes))) really necessary?

I use a rival 300 because it remains cheap while retaining all the high end "gaymur" sensors you want and also keeps its design understated and minimal because "muh minimalism" tickles my autism.

Unless they changed a lot they make shit tier electronics for very cheap, I know, I had trust keyboards, gamedpads and mouses, very cheap manufacturing with cheap materials, and for your own sanity, don't ever disassemble their keyboards with the intention of reassembly.

I'm a glorified (((shill))). Of course (((they))) were necessary.

lmao at the people in this thread who fell for the shillseries meme.

I Have this mouse and it's pure dogshit. The side rubber has totally disintegrated and the proprietary drivers always fuck up and change the color of the mouse / sensitivity.

The G502 is really good for fingertip grip if you have long fingers, I've used the MX518 and G303 (which is designed for fingertip grip) in the past but their shapes were too uncomfortable to hold on for hours without wrist pain. G502 isn't too light, has the best sensor, multiple buttons and an infinite scroll wheel. The thumb groove is also narrow and doesn't restrict where I put it, like with the design on the G400 and MX518. Sorry if I sound like a shill but don't see myself using any other mouse, the design looks a little too gamer-ish if that counts.

I just got a G400 a few weeks back.
Absolutely love it.
Its smooth, light but not cheap. Tried it out in a few shooters, its felt way more responsive and accurate than my old mouse.

That's the newer model of the MX518 isn't it?
I might need to upgrade it soon, because mine is starting to act funny after 10 years more or less.

It Works on My PC™

I've had it for two years and I've had neither of these problems except only once when Wangblows updates decided to forcefully install the steelseries engine. I've since switched to linux a long time ago and no problems since then.

but for how long?

steelseries is owned by msi, and neither are known for their reliability. all the sob stories i've read over the years on steelseries and razer mice shitting themselves to death.

Reading comprehension is hard user, I understand.

I did not know this. Maybe I'll try out a G400 next time one of my MX518s die.

I don't really know, I haven't had one on my hands, but it really looks like I could swap the outer shell between them.

That appears to be correct. The MX518 has 1800 DPI precision, while the G400 has 3600 DPI precision. However, the MX518 has been plenty good enough for me in every game I've played. I noticed a HUGE difference when I upgraded from a shitty garbage optical mouse to a real laser mouse (MX500), and the MX518 is much more precise than the MX500 was. I can only imagine the R400 is quite good. I like their shape as well.

The G400 does seem a little pricey though. There may be cheaper alternatives that are just as reliable. But don't ask me what they are.

The part that clicks is a microswitch. Open it and replace the microswitches. A pair of them is like $5 from ebay.

I've been putting off getting a Castor. My G400 still works for the moment, but it has acted up a few times. Was yours just faulty or is that a common thing with them?

I'm always having to buy new mice because the mouse develops that gay problem where it double clicks on single clicks. I wish there was a mouse I could buy that would just fucking last.

Scroll wheel issues are common with the Castor, but I haven't found cases as extreme as mine. My recommendation would be to just go for the Zowie FK2 mice instead.


3cm shorter than yours but really, I just preferred the 402's feel over the 502.>>13073988

Yeah I got one recently myself, pretty good mouse overall (its wireless performance is top notch from what I can tell as well).

I used one of these glorious fuckers from the day it released to about a year ago. Amazingly good mouse. Everyone loved them. After probably 20 years the left click button finally gave out so I replaced it with the same thing.
Totally different mouse despite looking the same. The sensor was shit and couldn't track right on surfaces the original had no trouble with. I had to get a mouse pad for it. It has stepping problems in the data returned that the original did not. The wheel started sticking after the first couple months of use. Then the left click started doing multiple clicks. And the right button started getting spongy. So within a year, I need a new mouse again.
How the fuck did they go from perfecting the laser mouse on the first try to this garbage? The damn thing was perfect and a triumph of American engineering and now it's some worthless chink shit that barely works. Fucking streetshitter CEO.

Err optical. It's late.

anyone remember this?

Who the fuck are you and why do you have the exact same mouse, mousepad and keyboard as me?

why do retailers squat on old tech gadgets? does squatting actually pay off?

apparently

if they get the order they just go on ebay or some other market and buy one for cheap and sell it to you

im touching it right now. but scroll doesnt work anymore

My headset just broke into 3 pieces.
Not falling off, just breaking apart.

just very common devices.
I had the same shit too minus the mousepad.
I switched to the far more comfy romer g switches now.
k70 was lagging quite a bit for me.

I wonder if a Made in USA mouse even exists anymore? There's a single trackball mouse, but I can't find much else.

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obligatory reminder in every mouse thread

As somebody with 20CM/8inch tall and 4 inch wide mitts I've never had a problem with mice despite how small they are as long as I have a wrist rest to use

I got this guy about a month ago replacing my cheap Chinese off brand piece of shit. I can finally play flick shooters for the first time in my life and have my first fully functioning mouse wheel in 10 years. The light is awfully annoying at night when I'm trying to sleep though and I have to either cover it up with towel or unplug it.

Just buy another g400. Its what I did

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That's hyper gay.

Been using and abusing my G400s for the past 4 years and still going real strong which is quite surprising when I'm usually on the computer for a good 12-15 hours a day. Least regretted purchase right next to my Phillips X2

Any recommends? Always wanted to try one out

Try a Logitech Trackman Marble, Kensington, or Elecom. If you can get your hands on a Logitech Tackman Vista, I'd heartily recommend that one. Been using one for over 20 years now, and only had one break on me because I went too hard on M1 in the Steam Summer Sale clicker game years back.

Basically any trackball that uses the index and middle finger for the trackball will yield the best results. Thumb trackballs are not optimal in any way for if you want to game. They offer no precision, whereas with practice an index and middle finger trackball can be pretty precise. You're not gonna be at the same level of precision in shooters as you would be with a conventional mouse, but you can be above average without a doubt. I find my accuracy to be around 60-75%, depending on what I'm shooting with.

The best part of a trackball though, is definitely the comfy factor. You can free up space you otherwise would've used for a mousepad, and you can have a drink right by your hand for easy sipping, all while maintaining maximum comfy.

Thanks for the advice user these seem like a nice alternative to a regular mouse for some cozy vidya without murdering the wrists. Gonna keep this info in mind when I buy one in the future

okay, okay, i bought a goddamn 6 buttons gaymen mouse with leds and a nylon cable, you fags satisfied now?

I only did it because my jerry rigged 3$ mouse was literally catching fire when the exposed cables touched

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Mine's still going strong. Got a G400s for when it finally gives up.

Is there a good wired laser mouse with low sensitivity that only has L/R buttons and a mousewheel that won't break literally fucking ten minutes into me using it like my last one?

AFAIK all laser mice have inherit acceleration, get an optical mouse.

The closest thing you are going to get to that is a kinzu v3, a bit old so the sensor isn't quite as good as top of the line current mice. Its also small, and discontinued so depending on where you live it might be hard to find.

Honestly if i were in your position I would just pick up a, EC1/2 or one of the FK variants depending on hand size and preference for ambidextrous/right hand fitted mice.

They have no drivers to install, just plug and play, where even the kinzu will have steelseries engine to install.

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Have a different logitech mouse, same issue. Random disconnects. 1 year in and the clicker is giving in too.
Before this I had a microsoft intellimouse that lasted me 9 years of being brutally raped, who would think a company that's the worst in every market it enters is one of the best when it comes to mouse making?

God dammit I miss that mouse. I brought it to a call center job because in between calls I was playing Serious Sam but after a super busy day of like 70 calls all of them shit I raged hard and slammed it into the desk. Busted the thing to pieces. This was back when I was younger and my autistic rage could still take control of me.

I'm currently using a G502 and it's comfy, functional mouse. Had no issues in the past three years I've had it and the free scroll toggle is awesome.

I've been using Logitech M90. Surprisingly durable for such a cheap mouse.

I bet you use an msi "gaming" laptop.

still using mine, the thing is 10 years old.

I have two in a drawer, both got tons of use, broke for different reasons. Was the best mouse ever made.

Right now I'm using a G500s, its pretty good.

Its a pretty good mouse, works great for me. Was worth it.

My old g500s is staring to die, so I just ordered a g502 since it's basically the same thing but improved, plus some shitty rgb crap. Also changing to a hard mousepad since I'm tired of cleaning my cloth one.

Why are ball-touchers so flamboyant and proud? Can't go a single mouse thread without them parading though it.

The only good mouse.
I might get the one where the ball is in the center of the mouse some day, but until then this shit is the most comfy fucking mouse.

i miss wipeout

It does look like a wipeout ship
I guess the great depression didn't teach anybody anything.

Why do people like trackballs? I actually prefer the feel of actually moving my hand around with a regular wireless mouse.

How are you going to use button 3?

I can't live without having a lot of buttons on my mouse, and having them be rebindable, so i can have one setup for games, and one for webbrowsing. My current CM havoc was deeply discounted, but i want to move it to be a back-up. the sensor, thumb-buttons and ergonomics fit my needs very well, but the mousewheel requires a ton of force to click. Opening tabs with it will give me carpal-tunnel. I'd also like at least one button opperatable without moving the middle finger away from the mousewheel.
A layout like the G400 would be pretty good, even if i'd move the backmost middle button down to the thumb. the g402 has buttons that are annoyingly easy to press if you don't keep the mouse strictly right-side-up and on a plain surface with no clutter. they also require the index finger to do all the work.

It's called middle mouse button and if you say it's not i'm going to bully you

Why? I like the way a regular mouse feels and moves.

How are you going to use button 3?

No, you're right, but it's also called Mouse Button 3.

Really gets the old almonds activated, doesn't it?

The M570 is garbage though. I had two of them, and they both refused to connect to their bluetooth dongles within a year of purchase.

Pic related is the best trackball ever made, ergonomically speaking. Desperately needs an updated model, but they discontinued them a while ago and they'll run you about $300 ~ $500 for a new one. I have two from back in the day that still work, but the first one needed some repair work after the cord developed a short in it.

Fucking typical, Microsoft finally produces a piece of hardware that both works fantastically and that people want, and the discontinue the goddamned thing.

That mouse has over 13ms of lag bro, and it's not that accurate either in comparison to mice in the last, well decade really

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well well well

Can someone explain why this is so fucking hard to do? Does MS have a patent on the shape or something?

Most people recommend logicalincrements for its PC hardware page but it has a good guide for buying computer mice and other peripherals as well.

logicalincrements.com/mouse

I myself am eyeing the page after my G400s is starting to get stiff. Same problem with the right-click too except it just feels stiff at the moment and doesn't slow me down in twitch shooters, yet. I've had the G400s for 4 or 5 years now. I'll stick with a wired mouse when I finally do replace it.


No idea. The simplicity and durability of that mouse has baffled hardware experts for decades at this point. Maybe Microsoft stole the last of the Nintendium mines and cut Nintendo out or some other elaborate explanation.

Remember? I still use 2 of them.

People like them because they are sturdy and reliable.

One issue I have with some logitech mice is that the cable is often extremely stiff so if you don't have the space to really stretch it, it'll mess up your movements. And they're also prone to bending.

Really have valid point. What I end up doing is measuring a bit of distance with the cord that comes from the mouse and make my keyboard weigh it down. That way the cable doesn't go anywhere and it doesn't interfere with my movement and there's enough cord to not restrict my movement.

naa it lowers the dps to the bottom setting so you can make it more precise.
but then again you can set any botton to do anything so you could make it an aimbot button if you wanted i guess

i have the same mouse works great and i got it on like 25% off see no reason to upgrade it till it breaks

It's like what happened to art. Once you hit perfection with the WMO 1.1a, you have to redefine the goal and go in a different direction to stay in the race. Leads to shitting paint and madcatz.

I plucked one of these from a garage sale for $2, and lemme tell you, I'm pretty sure this mouse brand is a meme. Although the form factor is great, the tracking is abysmal, even on a flat, nontranslucent surface. I later replaced it with this:
amazon.com/VicTsing-Wireless-Portable-Receiver-Adjustable/dp/B013WC0P2A/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1501265612&sr=8-5&keywords=mouse

6x the DPI rate, reasonably placed forward/backward button, and wireless with acceptable lag for $10. The microsoft mouse is finished.

I had one mouse by this brand and the scroll wheel crapped out on me after a few months

my wired mouse optical still works after 15 years

I've been using the same Trust wired optical for a decade and see no reason to change.

The tracking is outstanding in the 1.1a revision and went to shit after that when they switched everything out for Chinese parts including the sensor. If yours was bad consider there's a reason it was at a garage sale.

I have a G400 as well. It works fine, but the mouse seems to randomly disconnect then connect again if you jiggle the wire. I guess some of the wiring separates when I move it, but the light still stays on when this happens. Does anyone know if this is a hardware or software problem?

redragon mmo mouse is only good mouse

I just wanna clarify, I don't play MMOs, I just like a lot of buttons, the mouse feels good in my hands, tracks really well and has lasted me around 2 years now.

Is that a transformer?
Also
My autism hurts

I want to use that mouse so I can know what hell feels like

G302 has the same sensor as the G400.

This outlasted the mouse I bought to replace it. I'm starting to think I'll be stuck using it forever. Wheel is getting a little unreliable though, and most of the grip has turned white.

How the actual fuck did the g400s appreciate in vale faster than real estate? I got mine a couple years ago on Amazon for $50, and now they're almost double that?

Did the g400s become a super popular meme mouse, and Logitech is price gouging now?

It got discontinued.
It's succeeded by the G403.

If my experience with cars is relevant here that usually means companies are off doing retarded shit and their new products are worse than the old ones.

but the G403 isn't even good

It's because all the good mice were turned into shit mice when companies redesigned them to be produced in China with Chinese components. Anything before the chinkocalypse is rare loot from the precursors and worth bank.

can somebody post that mouse chart image? I've lost my copy.
I've ordered one of these things because I didn't want to have to start a thread for something like this, did I choose wisely or should I look into cancelling this as soon as possible? this is only for my laptop, of course. are laser sensors really so shit? it seemed highly rated enough on the product page

I got a g403 recently

The side buttons aren't that great but the overall build quality (especially the mousewheel) is pretty good. I also really like the size (it's about the same size as the wired mouse optical)

I mostly bought it because I wanted a wired mouse optical with higher DPI and more than 3 buttons

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What the fuck

Does it have a fucking spoiler?
Is it to generate downforce when you're moving the thing forward?

Spoilers aren't for downforce

They're for spoiling the car.

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Guys, is there anything like pic related out there nowadays? the kind of mouse you can grab using only your little finger and your thumb, and also is long enough that it lets you rest your wrist on it, i drew it's shape as best as i can remember

Friendly reminder that if your mouse starts double-clicking, or if the clicks are a little too light or heavy, you can almost always pry open the microswitches and bend the springs a bit to get them back into shape and alter them to your liking.
You'll want a sharp blade like a boxcutter to get the switches open, and a pair of tweezers probably wouldn't be a bad idea. It can be a bit fiddly to get it back into place after bending, but not difficult.

It'll probably look a little like one of these on the inside. Get a fix on how it feels when you press down where the button would actually contacts, and use that for reference. Or just open another switch and compare. Just don't lose the trigger in the top cover or the leaf spring/contact itself.

Has anyone experience with vertical mice like this? My mx510 is disintegrating and I've been having pains in my forearm from having the bones twisted all day.

Horribly inaccurate and awkward. Expect lots of accidental clicks while moving the mouse and lots of mouse jitter when you lick. It also requires you to use your entire arm for even small motions, which can be exhausting if you use your mouse for extended periods of time.

I use the same arm for masturbating and moving the mouse.
I might be a skinnyfat neet but with all this wanking I have the heart of a marathon runner and the right arm of superman.

I'm using that exact one right now. I tried several "ergonomic" ones before it that did not help with my hands and forearm hurting, but this one does. It's not precise enough to play most games with, but is mostly fine for work after getting used to it.

…well, it didnt help with my left hand hurting, I switched to dvorak for that.

Using the M570 as well, it'd be fucking perfect if there was a non-wireless version of it. Still, it's probably the best pointing device out there

this. wish i'd known this was possible sooner.

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I had one of those. Got too much nasty buildup from sweat and stuff, tried to clean it up but didn't have much luck. Replaced with a G900.

The G900 looks kind of silly with a few weird angles but in practice the shape is actually rather simple and comfortable.

mega gay

What is even the point?

I just replaced my broken Asus stock mouse (3 years, left click broken) with this slightly fancy, cheap contraption (20 euroshekels).
Did i do good?

is that a rubberized surface? that shit is a deal breaker for me because it's always disgusting on the touch and often disintegrates early

I got a cheap 12 bux wireless and a big ass mousepad a couple months back and they're both working fine even though half of the mousepad is covered in various liquor bottles. A mousepad is optimal but if you've got a think book or magazine that has a solid color back it'll be alright.

thin book

More DPI is better, right?

I don't know if they stopped making this already but it's basically the same thing as OP but with ==ADVANCED TECHNO-LINES==

shit I fucked up the red text, now I'm gonna get bullied

No, this is the one in OP with
ADVANCED TECHNO LINES
That one has more buttons that I don't know what the fuck they do.

So it is, the g500s just has a scroll wheel lock so you can lazily beat games with spam-press gameplay by binding to scroll, and an extra thumb button so you can press the wrong one accidentally and get confused when nothing happens.

I'll bully you for that weebshit, but not for the simple red text goof. I'm just a nice guy like that.

my brother got that in the childhood items wars. have a zowie fk1 now. probably over priced but I like it and no issues.

magazines, etc. are too thin, they break down fast if it's hot and sweaty. i prefer to recycle dept store boxes like pic related from xmas. they last a while and they're fuckhuge, free and comfy in warm weather.

Ah, but you see, I use a fan, so I didn't have that problem while I was between mousepads.

fixed that for you

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I just bought a new mouse recently.
I had been using an old Microsoft WMO up until then, and wanted something similar.

I ended up getting a Zowie EC1-A and it works great, feels very similar to the WMO. I'd definitely recommend getting a Zowie mouse.

Zowie has a bunch of different models, but they all use the same sensor- it's really just a matter of size and ergonomics.

This keeps getting said in every thread but it doesn't matter since they are just thinly veiled shill threads.

Razer DeathAdder 3500dpi with Razer Mamba mousewheel swap. I have big hands, and though I don't really need more than left/mid/right mouse buttons I sometimes use one of the thumb buttons. I did the mousewheel swap from the dead Mamba because the bastards used ultra fucking cheapshit plastic on the axle and I broke the original on like day 3.

What a shame

Guess this is the thread to ask. What are some good under 50$ keyboards?

I bought this Eagletec clickety clack a while back for 40 bux
and it's been pretty swell

I'm thinking of upgrading my mouse fairly soon, since a bunch of parts in my computer are getting to the point where they could use the upgrade and it might just be best to build an entirely new rig since the only things I'd really be able to keep are my HDDs and my case+fans.

I currently have a g500 that I bought when I first built my rig in early 2013, I'm guessing the g502s is the closest modern equivalent?

Drevo Gramr or Tyrfing. The Cherry clones in them are quite nice from my experience. Had the browns and the blacks; kept the blacks because they were stiffer. I wish there was a decent clear clone, tho. Both keyboards are $40 USD and less currently.

what the fuck.

that being said i'm borrowing a deathadder from a roommate and it shits on the fucking g500 i was using so hard, i thought these things were meme-mice, I'll probably buy one of my own just cuz i'm used to this already

Buy a trackball.

Buy a life

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Out of the way normalfag-fucking-shits!

and that's why I use the m750

What the fuck were they thinking?
Who takes out a laptop and an additional keyboard?

I've got one, do you? I'm a math major, so any job I want 300k starting. My 401k is already twice filled, and my two savings accounts hold a joint 5.5 million, with a 5% APR.

You wish you had my life. You wish you were me.

Nope, I don't, I already get 100k by doing nothing and renting the houses I own, and I have more free time than you.

Those are by far the best layout of mouse imho. Microsoft and other brands makes similar styles. Just get something similar to what you go and get a mouse pad with wrist support and you should be good to go

>buying (((logitech))) anything

GOOD GOY

乖的牛

I know this aint the exact thread to ask this.
But whats a good chair to buy for my battlestation?

I am considering them generic gaming chairs but I am not sure if that'd be a good choice.

My mouse-brother. I harvested microswitches from other mice once the right click on my first G300 started dying, ended up buying another one, then I saw that the g300s released and I bought that and gave my brother my second g300 since it was starting to feel iffy.
Now I've had occasional trouble with my g300s's middle click. This is a true hell, I love the way this mouse feels and how it aesthetically isn't complete garbage and having finger buttons instead of thumb buttons.

I got that same thing about a month ago. Nice ain't it?

canvas
fishing
chair

Go to a thrift store, sit in some chairs to find one that is comfortable for you, and buy it.

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They're designed to be sat in for several hours at a time.

A few months ago my Logitech G400 started to die, I thought I could take the chance and get a comfy
Mionix 7000 mouse with support for all my fingers. I still am not over the loss of my G400 and I miss it dearly.
Why did Logtiech stop making them? I could buy one from Amazon but they are way too expensive.
Should I just buy one Holla Forums?

what started to die on it? you could always put some new guts in it and salvage the shell, if you like it so much