MOTHERFUCKING TALES OF THREAD

Whoops, second part there should have been linked to .

Don't worry, I still saw. Still, holy shit. If he's not bullshitting us, Cless had a hard life. Only sorta memeing.
It'll STILL come before SMT if…'s translation :^)

Project Metafalica (which was in the works for a total of seven years) managed to go from Beta 2 retranslation patch to full release in the time Zhi's been apparently doing fuck all for. And AG is sitting on MANY partial translations as is that have gone nowhere in years.

Been debating for a while about making a pseudo-indepth image for new-to-series Tales fans as it's a series I've really liked, but I'm not sure just how much demand for one there is, and I have an unfortunate habit of going full TL;DR with things I create. Also combined with just how many fucking games the series has, even without counting Escort titles. I've just gotten sick of seeing that halfchan moonspeaker's tierlist get reposted around as if it were a proper "where should I go/start/what games are good" image. Especially when there's a number of games (like Abyss) where fans are heavily divided on for various reasons.

I stopped looking at Aeon Genesis's site since it doesn't seem like he is going to post on it for a while.
Do it then, I hate that list anyway

Yeah, bad comparison on my end. Thanks for reminding me that Zhi is such a good goy now, holy shit.
Do it and you'll have the unwavering approval of at least one anonymous internet user.

Didn't NiSA start translating these games?

That would be Ys.

I have my own worries there, namely whether the "Liana" supposedly working with Zhi on Granhistoria (which I seem to recall seeing him post on Twatter as to tinkering around in) is the same "Liana" from this old blog that had been working on "translating" it years ago, and if so whether they have the same mindset. Quotations on Translation for good fucking reason.

Depending on what you meant by that: Fuck no. NISA started localizing games with Phantom Brave; all their prior NIS titles were published by other companies (like Atlus for Disgaea 1).

If you mean who's handled Tales itself, NISA has never touched them. I'd have to double check who handled Destiny and Eternia PS1, but I think NoA handled Symphonia (or barring that, they at least marketed for them; I'd have to check the credits). Abyss, Vesperia, Graces f, Xillia, and Hearts R were all 8-4; Namco used to keep them in line though, but with Hearts R they let them shit the bed hard, but haven't used them since then. If memory serves, Xillia 2 has dual crediting for what seemed to be some internal Namco branch, as well as 8-4 getting special thanks (perhaps due to using English terms established by them, like Spyrix). I'm not sure who Namco whores the series out to these days, but it's not NISA, nor do they use 8-4 anymore. It would be nice though if Namco could compile a glossary or something for whoever they're using now; renaming artes between entries, whatever the reasons are, causes a loss of consistency for returning fans.

To be fair, it seems that they're going for the NEW AND IMPROVED stance with old artes. Sonic Thrust got upgraded to Mega Sonic Thrust in Berseria, and Tiger Blade Sigma's the "ultimate" Mystic Arte of the Xillia duology, even showing up in the Berseria cameo battle, to provide some examples. Though we may be on two different pages here.

Well, I'm not entirely averse to doing so, but lets say that I'd need some additional help for particular games I haven't played, either due to not having had the machine to do so (Berseria), language requirements (Destiny 2, Rebirth, etc), or interest (Tales of Symphonia 2). I could also use a moonspeakers input for some of the escort titles, as I figure that the Radiant Mythology and Narikiri Dungeon subseries are worth a mention, and the west is heavily prone to NOT seeing those out here (and NDX aside, the most fan-translation attention they've gotten is mostly menu patches to simply make stuff at least playable).

That was an existing arte already if memory serves. I want to say Hubert had it in Graces, and I think Reid was the originator of it. I'd have to see what the actual original arte name was to know if the base arte was renamed, or if that's the actual upgraded version (perhaps without the character learning the base?); Aselia wiki is good for double-checking such things. I meant more along the lines of "Light Spear" being renamed to "Tornado Drive" for Alvin's arte of it (Ivar's oddly remains "Light Spear", or how one of Ludger's dual sword artes is clearly a variant of the Sword Rain classification, yet somehow became "Time Disintegration" in the English version.

Well, Ludger's whole gimmick is time so it makes a little sense. Could've at least called it, I dunno, Sword Rain Chrono. As for the chart, here's some input on Berseria and Symphonia 2:
Really weird combat system that you'll either grow to tolerate or will make you drop the game. Each button corresponds to a different part of a 4 hit combo, and you can customize each hit for each button. This gets tedious if you live to hit weaknesses with all the rearranging you'll do. The A string is set to automatically choose moves but I didn't find it all that reliable for what little time I used it. On the other hand, it definitely has one of the better parties in the series. An almost ara type who admittedly starts off borderline Haze Stratos tier in terms of edge, a pirate who's basically Gene from God Hand no seriously, you can't tell me that with that outfit, the devs weren't inspired to give him a HYPERACTIVE FIGHTING STYLE, an edgelord-looking samurai who turns out to be a pretty cool guy, a kinda generic "enemy turned ally" whose most exciting feature is that her second Mystic Arte is literally Lost Fon Drive, a shota who gives good reason to destroy all English dubs, which is a shame, the rest of the cast is bretty gud, and
MAGILOU
For those who DO have the hardware for it, there's a demo out. Might be worth mentioning. Yes, they released borderline /ss/ to the west with no censorship, aside from the blurring. Yes, I need to cool it on the waifufaggotry, but good lord, Tales has damn fine elves. Makes me briefly consider not hating those knife-eared fucks as a whole.
If you really liked Symphonia, give it a try. It's definitely not great, but some will find it to be decent. The original cast being at a fixed level and becoming dead weight after the first playthrough is a definite downside, but the monster collecting system was a neat idea in my book.

Time Disintegration was one hell of a bullshit 'translation'. TBH I don't care much about different games changing arte names even if they're the same attack since usually each character executes artes with a 'personal flair', but I have to side with Kajitani's autism-riddled post about Xillia 2 with this one. It was that stupid.
I think 8-4 did a solid job with the general translation, artes names aside, in Xillia 1+2. Particularly, the world building concepts such as spyrix/spyrite are an improvement over JP's jin/orijin (there's already a Tales summon named Origin, after all).
Even skits were reasonably well done, such as the rather infamous 'sexist' skit in X1 (the JP version has the same claim of sexism - I played it undubbed and it was there), and then there's the 'meme' skit in X2, where the concept of mascot characters (yuru-chara) in Japanese was reasonably adapted to a 'meme' in the localized dialog.

Abyss was also pretty solid overall, but then came Hearts R. The fact that it was localized still surprises me, and from the looks of it, Bamco just rushed out the job and 8-4 complied. Still, at least it's fun to play and there are no bugs…

Do link?

Anyhow, I suppose the point I'm making is that, while the early entries understandably didn't exactly have the benefit of established western naming conventions (even the nigh-ever present Majinken was known as "Missile Sword" and "Sonic Blade", before becoming the familiar "Demon Fang/Fist/Dog" to westerners), it took until Symhponia for a lot of artes to get a nailed down recurring name that people could start to recognize for what it did prior. And as of the Xillia games, it seems like this consistency has begun to breakdown, either because 8-4 got bored/creative handling Xillia, or perhaps whatever new team they have not having familiarized themselves with existing naming conventions.

Further reading on the subject by Kajitani (who has analysed a few of the more recent Tales localizations).
blade2187.com/2014/08/25/the-arte-of-arte-naming/

Also, just checked that "Mega Sonic Thrust" thing. Reid is indeed the pioneer of the arte, and the listed kanji for both Hubert and Velvet's arte of the same name is the same as it is for Reid's (空破絶掌撃). I think it's safe to say that, unless someone on Aselia wiki has been lazy about it (seeing the English name and associating Kanji with it, rather than actually checking the Japanese artes for the game), that's been kept consistent.

Not exactly, Ludger's both time and space, given the likes of Material Destruct/Form Destroyer. Really though, his arte naming scheme is all over the place. The real issue there is that [Nakishigure] is basically a run of the mill "Rain" type arte, albeit if memory serves it has a kick to knock the enemy over, and is not worthy of such a ridiculously powerful sounding name.

On a related note, I'm laughing a bit at how one of his Chromatus/Corpse Shell artes was named "The End" in Japanese, but "Apocalyptica" in the English script. I mean, it's not entirely off mark, but still.

blade2187.com/2014/08/25/the-arte-of-arte-naming/
Kaji's a bit of a stickler about translation. I do agree with most points, especially the ridiculous or confusing arte changes such as X1 'Tornado Drive'. Sometimes it gets a bit too picky, but he still proves his case by referring to the original JP text or previous translation conventions.

Oops, had do not bump left on.

See . Kajitani has a number of analysis articles of recent Tales localizations.

Fair point on Ludger. While we're at it. Jesus christ, is he the most overpowered Tales character of all time? I imagine if he were a cameo fight, he would just delete your save file, make it easier on you.

Looks like it's reading time for me.

Combat wise? Probably up there with Yuri, though with Yuri its more than having certain skill combinations active on him at once makes him broken, if I remember correctly. Plot wise? Also maybe. I mean (spoilers for Eternia), Reid pretty much becomes a scion of one of the Eternia binary system's deities, and can use the Divine Aurora artes bestowed on him to invert certain enemy artes, and plotwise becomes crucial in preventing the Great Fall. Still, I suppose plotwise Ludger is balanced in that the canon ending has him die, with perhaps even his soul ceasing to exist and thus he will never reincarnate, leaving him overpowered simply for the duration of his game.

Playing .hack//G.U. recently, I have to wonder if Namco borrowed the idea for Ludger's midcombat weapon/arte map swtiching from Haseo's Skill Trigger.

More reading for you:
blade2187.com/2014/04/21/no-no-no-no-no-no/
blade2187.com/2014/06/12/you-guys-need-a-localization-director/
blade2187.com/2014/11/10/like-moths-to-a-flame/
blade2187.com/2014/11/16/a-crash-korse-in-how-not-to-localize/
blade2187.com/2015/06/20/some-fan-qa-for-zestiria/
blade2187.com/2015/12/31/zestiria-a-good-release/
What's notable about Kajitani, on the off chance you didn't know, is that he was working on a fan-translation for the DS version of Hearts prior, and thus knew the base script and happenings, as well as of the changes the Vita version had compared to it. He canceled that translation effort out of Namco deciding to finally bring Hearts R overseas. Thus Bamco and 8-4's massive fuck up on it is something he is exceptionally critical of (and not without good reason).

I personally think that Namco, not wanting to bring over the game at all to begin with (even back in the days of the DS, which was a haven of JRPG love and had a big western ownerbase), and only clearing it after prodding from SCEA (that poll probably being one of the few things they did right by western Vita owners), simply didn't give a fuck about it and told 8-4 to just get it out how they wanted. Meanwhile, 8-4 has confirmed that their favorite projects are ones on which they are given near total control and little oversight. It strikes me that given the circumstances, this could be one of their beloved projects they were allowed to be "creative" with.

Peaches look like little butts

With Abyss 3DS, I expect that Namco just grabbed the existing English script and voicing for the port, but I don't have a 3DS to check it with myself. It just seems the easiest way to do such a thing, and I didn't especially notice much wrong with Abyss PS2's script, minus no voicing for skits (main issues being more technical; camera slowdown on the field, post combat overworld loading, and lengthy save times).

Its worth keeping in mind that while 8-4 seems prone to fuckery, they can be MADE to do good work from time to time, apparently provided the hiring company cares to keep them on a short leash. Even though they've had a string of shitty scripts lately, I'd still say it's better for people to take their older stuff on a game-to-game quality basis, as they've been up and down a lot.

Try as 8-4 might, they will NOT steal that apparently coveted crown of "Shittiest English Localization Company" from NISA until they start fucking up on that end too. Same for NoA and Treehouse. And I'd advise them not to try hit rock bottom like that.

Indeed. Case in point: NieR.
They did an absolutely stellar job with the first Nier, and that was just a small side project for Squeenix. Even the voice work stands out, making it one of the few games I prefer to not undub. The thing about Papa/Bro Nier was on Squeenix/Cavia's side, not 8-4's, but I still do think Papa Nier fits better.

Automata seems fine so far (in the middle of route B now) but I'm pissed that they edited out an item name that was a clear reference to an old missile weapon and not the Nintendo 64. Fucking Nintyfags and their cries.

NISA's title is indeed quite the achievement, but I still do have some of their games (PS2 Mana Khemia, htoL#NiQ, Disgaea for Vita…). As much as the Mugen Souls and Criminal Girls censorship pisses me off, I honestly believe the true shit crown of 'localization' will always go to Wrecking Designs. I don't think NISA deliberately wishes to insert bugs, but WD did deliberately make shit harder, make you PAY to save in Lunar, and also fucked up gameplay mechanics aside from the scripts, now full of pop jokes.
Same goes for Gaijinworks. Fuck Vic Ireland.

Oh, and about Abyss 3DS it is indeed just a reuse of the PS2 script. However, possibly due to space, even the JP version cuts out the skit voices, which sucks.
Best way to play will always be undubbed PS2 for dem skit voices (all glory goes to based Asmodean). Yeah, there's the loading times in the world map, but hey, you got co-op too.

As for Treehouse, I don't think I can even consider them to be a localization company. Replacing dialog with '…' ain't localization - I'd have better luck throwing the script to enthusiastic JP language students.

Today I will remind them of the best Tales game, bar none.

Both wreck, insert stupid memes, and censor their games, but whereas NISA tries to do it on the sly to save face, tricking retards into believing it was legally compelled change, Vic at least has the balls to tell you straight to your face that he's going to ruin things because of his own personal beliefs. Both are doing it for the exact same reasonings, but one is attempting to stab you in the back while doing it.

For that, and that alone, Vic and WD/Gaijinworks, are vastly preferable.

Also, thanks for the information, though I could do with less spoiler tags laden in it (you can't exactly work a spoiler function into part of a static image, so I'm going to have to try to keep those out). I'll post later today/tonight (provided the thread is still up, which I assume it will be at the currnet posting rate) a sample of the sort of format I'm using to describe each game if that's helpful; as I've toyed around with the idea of making a series graphic for a while I've got some prior stuff for some of the earlier games in the series, but they're months old and I haven't looked at them in quite some time, so I might revise them further while adding to them.

Working Designs itself at least died once, perhaps due to how much effort and cost went into all the extras they provide, which is something I won't consider a fault with them (aside from budget management), as I'm fond of first print bonuses, provided a game itself is enjoyable (XSEED's 10th Anniversary bundle for WA5, for instance; related note, but they managed to force 8-4 into outputting quality work back when XSEED was young). Still, they essentially rewrote a lot of the games they handled to my knowledge, and still do under their new name of Gaijinworks. And also the fact that Viccy came out as pro-censorship and wants to get his hands on Idolmaster.

I still say NISA wears the crown. Why? Because they seem to get work so fucking easily, and thus can potentially shit up more games than Viccy can. Having a much bigger roster of released games seems to do that for a company, quality of scripts be damned (similar case with how 8-4 probably gets so much work).

I've honestly got to give that a go sometime, considering I do have a PS2 with an IDE and all. That said, it does strike me that there's two big issues in regards to using undub patches with certain games: Dialogue that has no text, English script name changes, and unintentionally script bugging. If memory serves Abyss at least lacks the latter two issues (can't say the same for .hack//G.U., wherein you've got English name changes AND an instance in Redemption where the English script apparently calls in what may or may not be dummied out translator note of "What was that all about anyway?"), but there's still the issue of combat banter and win quotes being voice only (resolution of which would require an undub patch to code in text subs).

That's honestly why I keep the PS2 version around, in addition to not having a 3DS anyhow.

Best of all in gameplay indeed. Personal fave of mine still goes to Abyss

What you mention is the current Gaijinworks attitude with Vic's 'straight on' flair, at least. But back in Lunar, oh god. The manuals of WD games would outright lie about the changes.
tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences
(warning: TCRF can be rather addictive. Also, pretty much all the details about WD's changes in their games were documented here by pretty much the same guy, who also did rompatches to undo these things. If you want to play some WD games without the ultra-hard-mode shit on, have a look at the patches).

All this discussion really makes me glad 8-4 was the one to touch the Tales games, after all. Even Hearts R with its stupid changes was still fun as heck to play, and some skits were handled excellently, even.

WA5 is another solid 8-4 piece of work indeed. They have a solid record so far as long as they don't get too much free reign, as mentioned.

The Abyss undub only changes three things:
There's a 1.1 version that adds subs to FMVs but I believe it desynced other skits.

Sadly, in-battle banter, including victory quotes are left unsubbed. Hacking this kinda thing is possible (see Phantasia and Hearts DS demo patches) but it requires a lot of work.

Asmodean was also behind the GCN Symphonia undub, but since debugging tools aren't as widespread for the GCN, making ASM patches to restore skit voices wasn't possible. There is the PS3 HD version to remedy that, however.

Legendia also has an undub patch. Works great during the main quest but unfortunately the Character Quests do not have the voices restored. So far hacking the scripts back to play the voices was unsuccessful. (the last scene of each CQ does have undubbed voices since the original US version kept these particular scenes voiced).

I attribute things like that to era. You could get away with things like that before the Internet came along in full. Still, I won't judge a man for his past when his current behavior is just. Also, NISA is really just that much worse, like goddamn.

Graces still has superior skits to every other game as well. I'd be so bold as to say cast too, but Abyss is too strong a contender to make that claim. Speaking of Abyss, I never finished it because my couch-op bro I was playing with bailed on me, but it really was good. We were pretty damn far in, so I should just complete it one of these days.

Maybe I'll just watch the anime and call it good. I've heard it followed the game quite adequately. Can anyone here chime in on that, if you've seen it?

Anime follows it quite well, indeed. It does change some events to remove the classic 'JRPG obstacle stuff' though.
Biggest example is the part where you're about to get the airship. There's a town in crisis and in the game you totally need an airship to help them out, so you go to the other side of the goddamn world map to talk to the airship's pilot and get him to help. All this while said town is still in the midst of the crisis.
In the anime, this changes so that Luke & co. immediately head to the town in question, and another character is responsible for making contact with the airship's pilot, so that they show up and help out the townspeople.

While the anime is great and I enjoy the hell out it especially since I get to hear more of the JP cast, you should get your bro back on ship and co-op through, it's really great. I've played all the currently-translated console Tales titles (Legendia notwithstanding) with my brother, which makes things way more enjoyable.
—
Gotta admit, WD's presentation for manuals, packages and all the flair were great. NISA does sorta-neat collector's packages sometimes, but their prices are jacked up as hell.
It really sucks that nowadays you're lucky if your desired game gets a physical release at all… and even if it does, it tends to be a simple box with just the disc on it. So far the only games for the PS4 I have which came with manuals are XSeed's… Nowadays, even a manual is an oddity.

I suppose I'll just "finish" Abyss by watching the anime. It'd be quicker than replaying all of the game. We were far enough in that, guesstimating, I could theoretically start on episode 18 or so, not that I would do that. Just saying it'd be quicker to watch all the anime, rather than replay all the game.

I can't. Life circumstances just don't let us do those kind of things anymore. It sucks because he bailed on me in the middle of both Abyss and Zestiria so I never finished either one (definitely not crying about the latter though.) Graces was a fucking riot, and we both shittalked endlessly about every other Tales game after that for simply not matching up.

For the people playing these games, if at all possible, play it couch-op with bros. Completely changes the game and makes it 9999999999999999999999 times funner.

The caveat being that the main character is a fucking pussy. He is more irritating than Luke pre-Akzeriuth

>tfw I felt bad for a generic blank slate "my special power is copying special powers" type
It was no Nier Ending D, don't get me wrong. But still, that's the exact sort of ending that hurts me the most. F to pay respects and all that.

Whoops, sorry. Half of that wouldn't belong on the chart anyway and is miscellaneous ramblings, so I don't blame you. The other half is more "le ebin witty small text" as well, so you're probably making the right choice.

The eternal mysteries of Tales:
>Who, exactly, was the new redhead at the end of Abyss? I get it's a fusion of Luke and Asch but how much Luke is in him? How much Asch? I'm probably overthinking this, huh.
>Will Velvet ever have a happy ending?

Part of what makes it sad is that he pretty much sacrifices everything so that someone that isn't exactly "real" can actually live on. I seem to recall hearing that some bonus materials state that other incarnations of her (being that X2 delves into alternate timeline/universes) had never lived past their early teens or something, so she finally gets to enjoy life, even if the cost was Ludger's existence. Either way, they're just lucky that Origin isn't a big rulesfag (compared to Chronos) and is willing to call a potential "fail" a "pass-by-loophole" if he likes what he sees. He won't negate the price paid though.

Pic related is a example of how I'd been writing game descriptions. Usually a paragraph or two for the plot/cast as an introduction, a paragraph for mechanical discussion (new additions and refinements to the formula), and a paragraph for additional options (ports, patches, etc); I planned to give remakes their own description as well, though those will be more of a description of changes than repeating the plot/cast introductions. Abyss has had the longest description thus far due to also wanting to explain just what makes it so much a love it or hate it title. As you can see, this is probably already TL;DR tier and I hadn't even started on the latter half of the series last I worked on it (let alone anything about escort titles).

That's not true. Berseria's combat system is simply a superior system from Graces f. I don't mind the combo system in itself or its structure. What really bothers me is the resistances and the power hits, forcing you to use specific element-based attacks that you may or may not enjoy. Graces f had the same issue where you had to spam Hidden Artes to do more dps and that was boring.
It is also not fun when resistances at end game mean pretty much zero damage. You're forced to do a combo string for each element for coverage and a neutral one to maximize stuns for souls.

Let's head for the butt, cheria.

I believe it's all fucking bull. My 'canon' end is the 'good' end with Ludger in the company building office.
I just find it heavily cliché and forced to have Ludger sacrifice his entire existence across all worlds ala Nier just because of the alt-world Elle. By this point in the game the player, i.e. Ludger, has already destroyed multiple parallel universes, including multiple Judes, Alvins, Leias, Rowens, Elizes, Agrias, Gaius, Muzets, and also most likely multiple Elles aside from pretty much entire populations of these alt universes. Just because this Elle accompanies you throughout the adventure she gets special treatment? Fuck that… just look what happened to Alt-Milla.

Xillia 2 is shit story-wise.

you just play it for the gameplay

It was fun indeed. I liked the 'generic link artes' they introduced, as some link pairs in X1 were quite lacking in link artes to use.
Co-op was fun as always, but having forced Ludger outside of newgame+ is meh.

I haven't been that mad at a video game for a while. The direct aftermath, where absolutely nobody gave a shit outside of Elle, sent me and my couch-op bro into apocalyptic fury. Especially since Alt-Milla was best Milla.