Why are all MMORPG games such goddamn garbage...

But thats is what all mmorpgs are like. They are just really shit games thats would get 0 out 10 on reviews if they were held at t he same standrads as normal games, where you see people doing the same shit you are doing.

Im not crazy or hate myself enough to try any more but i think most just keep the pvp to certain places to prevent that kind of shit

choose one

these games arent fun or balanced, so i dont know what you mean

im not sure if I can choose either user
if I'm OP, its not so fun
if I'm getting roflstomped by everyone else or just an OP class because my class sucks or isn't OP, thats not so fun either

>Best Smash stage

MMOs as done in the style of WoW innately lack immersion, because you know everyone else is being told how they're special, and nothing you do can ever actually change the status quo. Without immersion, story games are shit. EVE is an actually good mmo, if supremely autistic, because it actually makes use of the fact that thousands of people are playing at once. Most MMOs however are just 10k people all playing the same shitty singleplayer game at a time.

I can tell you the most important things that ruined mmorpgs. I did not catch the golden age of warcraft, but I catched the earlier days of FLYFF, and it was some of the most amazing times I've had in my life. It did not matter that it's a korean grinder, here is what made it so fun.

Levels mattered, if you tried to fight a higher level monster it wouldn't take you an eternity like modern mmorpgs, he could just make you lose half your health in your second and even kill you directly.

The 'discard' option now is shit. Back then you could make a trail from the city to the forest with items and you had 100 noobs following you. You could kill a boss and have a group of bandits waiting to steal your loot. You could AOE a bunch of mobs and people would sit around and try to kill steal from you. Now it's all too safe and there's no danger. BORING.

There are 1,000 bullshit rules even if you PK now. You could've PK'd people back then and steal their rare shit, that's awesome. And if you were an infamous PKer it was even more funny because everyone wanted revenge.

I can complete almost all mmorpgs today alone. There is no need to have a party. Back then you really really needed one because it took you a lot of grinding to level up, and being in a party gave you bonus EXP.

Overall it's this, too easy, no sense of exploration/everything is handed to you, everything is too safe. It's like real life + fantasy filter, not real life with crazy rules and shit to explore and do.

This
Just like everyone else.

Nothing you do matters in the slightest

It's like bitching that football isn't played on steep slopes or that chess doesn't randomly teleport all pieces around after each turn. I'm sure it would be lots of fun when you're just fucking around with friends, but it'd be awful if you're trying to compete.

Everyone knows the best banned stages are The Bay™ and Big Blue anyway.

I see you've taken to the modern form of game design, which is to have everything equally shit or have some things objectively better than others.

That wasn't the right image, but ah well.

That's a damn fine stage as well.

Here's the one problem with your argument, the stage is IN the game. To use your football comparison, it's like saying that a football game is cancelled because the field is covered in snow from the night before, it's been raining for the past hour, and it's just above freezing conditions so the field is covered in slush and mud. No, it's not the usual weather conditions that the players have practiced and are familiar with, but they have to play regardless.

What's the alternative? Have features and weapons that work significantly differently from each other?
No, silly. That would take time and effort :^)

MMOs were such a missed opportunity. I'd love to play a game like Gothic online, but every MMO wants to copy WoW's theme park style of map design, Runescape's awful combat and a skill system built so poorly it's almost as if the devs were trying to force a meta to be established on day one.

Hyrule is banned in competitive Melee because it's big enough that one player can score a kill and then run away for the rest of the round. Melee tournaments take long enough as it is without watching some broke-dick Ganon fruitlessly chase a Fox for seven minutes per round best two out of three every fucking set in a 150 player bracket.

That's part of the problem.

If it's been raining for the past hour and the conditions are that bad the game will at the very least be delayed. Cancelled games are very rare in football because they're dead set on NFL games always being on Sunday for some reason (other sports like baseball can get rained out). There's no dumbass schedule getting fucked up by banning shit stages like Temple and Pokefloats (and Pokemon Stadium, fuck the rock transformation), just a more fun game with less camping and cheese.

Out of curiousity, are there any MMOs that got it right?

Auto attack + macros is boring as fuck

There's even auto potions now, disgusting

It being in the game doesn't mean it should be used in a tournament that is meant to be about skill. I don't get why you mentally disabled people get so stuck on this shit. Same deal with items. Anyone who has played Smash with items on knows that some stupid shit like a bob-omb or explosive capsule spawning inside your character will happen at least once per match, or alternatively a heart container spawns inside your opponent the instant they attack and they auto grab it. Items may be fun with friends, but they're incredibly luck based. Fine for fucking around for fun, but not for actual competing.

Also your sports example is pretty weak, since various sports do in fact delay or cancel games if the weather is too bad. Slopes "exist in the real world" too, but you don't see people demanding that people should have to chase a ball around on them just because of that. No sane sports arranger would hold an outdoor sports game in the middle of a hurricane, which is pretty much what Smash is with items and on the crazier stages.

MMOs are shit because of competitive PvPers. Always whining and bitching till everything is homogenized and boring since nothing is balanced when you have 20 mages casting golden shower on you and die immediately. Not saying ban open world PvP since it can sometimes bring people together instead of isolation.

I like mmos.
I dunno what's people's problem. Unrealistic expectations? Nostalgia goggles? Some arbitrary rules they make up in their head first and then compare existing games to it after? Taking entertainment seriously?

What is more curious is a category of people that actively play mmos, trying to be competitive in them lol, all the while complaining about every single aspect of it. Like stop playing what you don't enjoy. But they neither stop playing nor stop complaining.

drink bleach for enjoying a floaty combat system that supliments time invested for the majority of skill. Also, drink bleach for enjoying a master crafted scam that is designed to keep you playing on the most basic filler content imaginable.

Seriously, the last mmo that was good was ultima online or tibia. Everything else can fuck right off.

Latency and feelings.

Latency limits just about all forms of good, responsive gameplay. Hurt fee fee's ensure that nobody is a loser or a winner, which leads to a bland experience with as much excitement as those shitty sparkler fireworks with less output than a candle.

You can make a decent online multiplayer game that disregards both of those as the servers generally cater to a smaller, localized playerbase. However as soon as you get into the world of massively multiplayer geography starts become a real impediment.

So nostalgia goggles it is.

soul calibur 2

I know your shit is bait, but we may as well at least keep this going
Hell, I'll even give you an easy out and ask what mmo's you actually like, in the off chance you are being legit

That one hook nose from blizzard ruined everything. MMORPG used to be rough but salvageable. Now, you just have item treadmills.

is this overwatch

as opposed to more sporadic forms of item grinding? wow was an attempt at 'fixing' the least fun aspects of mmorpgs, some would say casualizing it. but dont tell me the alternative designs were any better. the only reason you would say that is if you preferred a community that was willing to put up with dumb shit

You're supposed to hang out with other people while killing monsters in the back ground. If combat is overly complex, you'll be distracted from the primary aspect of MMO - massive multiplayer i.e. socializing.

That's once again is a back ground. I never played wow, but what do you want when you install new MMO? To go in and have DMC3-tier combat? Or to co-op with like minded people and exchange ideas while leisury grinding mobs? Are you sure you're in the right genre.

What games even do that? In worst case scenarios you can pay for skipping grinding, but then again why are you even playing if you want better shit instantly and are even concerned about better shit?

I don't even play western games anymore, not AAA ones at least. I know ubishit puts p2w into their Asscreeds and whatever else they are publishing, it doesn't even concern me.
What western MMOs are even there and what kind of p2w do they have?

And your point being? People leaving those old games because they got sick and tired of them, you can't just play the same shit for years no matter how frequently it updates.

Grown into what? Real life simulation?

Ragnarok Online - perfect for socializing when hacking mobs with simplistic combat
PSO - same as above but in sci-fi
PSO2 - actually has good combat
DCUO - same as RO but with super heroes and shit. They DO gate content behind money, so their free to play is kinda like free demo of paid game, but you still can get like 60 hours out of that.
BDO - once again good combat. I dunno how much of p2w NA release is, but on russian one you can pay for cosmetics and storage shit like that
There is a bunch of others but these are like better ones.

WOW took what was essentially a sandbox genre and streamlined it so bad that they invented a new term for it: The themepark MMO. WoW is less of an MMO and more of a daycare centre, a place where you drop the kidults off when they want play time.

A lot of reasons, but it boils down to not respecting the player's ability to actually do anything with anyone (ex: no player-driven economy/pvp elements), and them being unable to actually build worthwhile worlds and mechanics and resorting to more half-measures and gay limitations to justify it all (ex: linear grinding with EXP penalties for grinding where you aren't supposed to yet).

Because these are mass-marketed products who want to pander to the lowest possible common denominator of people as quickly as possible; they're designed to lure in whales and protect the feefees of normalfags and faggots while they're guided along their themepark rides.

MMOs used to have some level of decency and progress; here's to hoping the Dark Ages of Camelot remake doesn't suck.

you make it sound like they took nothing and made an actual game out of it.
that about how i remember everquest

You mother fuckers need to play some RO

There was plenty in the older games. Actual professions that encouraged a player-driven economy and group play that was built around official guilds that have their own special quests and shit to keep people logging in to the skinner boxes daily.

This most of all. Nowadays every forumdad and carebear cries out in autistic rage when an MMO dev even thinks of adding a mechanic that allows you to fuck with players like that. It's honestly infuriating to me. These niggers have hundreds of garbage MMOs to safely fuck around in, but that won't do, every game -even if they don't play it longer than a fucking week- has to cater to their thin-skinned, jelly-spine feelings.
Also automatic auction houses are cancer.

Have an screen from a thread from a while back.

Sorry, bad english, was tabbed out during an online game

PK has only ever been an oversight in design. Out of hundreds of hours spent back when I played MMOs I can think of two total times where actual PvP occurred. It's always some max level character going to a low level area to kill people who have no way to fight back until someone logs onto their main or another high level player shows up, then they run away like a bitch.

This is mostly because PvP in MMOs is shit. Usually just flagging a player as targetable and calling it a day rather weaving game mechanics in and out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I would want nothing more than an MMO that heavily emphasizes community over the singleplayer mentality that's plagued quite a few over the years, but we get stuck with what we see today.

I'm not asking for the ability to feel my enemies entrails sliding off my blade as I dig it out of their body to celebrate my hard fought victory, but I think it isn't a lot to ask for a solid combat system with either a diverse set of classes not based on a combat triangle or the ability to pick and choose quite a few abilities to make something interesting even within a semi limited framework. If you make a game with fast paced melee and range combat with a variety of combos, is not it compared to things like Bayonetta and Devil May Cry at least to see how it holds up in terms of quality? I'm not asking that ride some poor normalfag across the dirt as I shoot his friends full of holes before leaping off him and going into a powerslide solo immediately with a guitar that was once a vampire while bats fly around me and lightning comes down, but I think it's not a big deal to ask for better combat, again if they are going to shrug off social aspects and socializing in exchange for grinding. I mean, shit, Warframe is more a co op shooter grindfest than MMO grindfest but they at least made the grinding look decent from a gameplay point of view.

Neverwinter comes to mind in that a lot of it's items in it's "Zen Market" (microtransactions) while grindable can be easily acquired in something that is closer to a game of Russian Roulette than anything else, but to me that is still a pay to win situation that allows one to bypass months and months of grinding to reach a point that is better than a good portion of players. Mind you my personal definition of pay to win isn't based on shit like cosmetics or some pet that follows you around (unless that pet gives you additional crit or something) it's exp boosters, item games, flat out better gear for money, that sort of thing.

Mind you it's partially on fault of devs and publishers who want ways to make easy money without having to make more solid content for players in general and partially an issue with players that don't have the time/ want to learn a game any longer than more casual experiences. It's not a bad thing to want to make more revenue or have a way to make it, and while even I'm guilty of spending money on a Gook Grinder for experience boosts, it doesn't detract from the fact it can kill a community rather quickly. There's plenty of other, far larger reasons a community can die, but that is a player in no small part to the issue.

Not really a bad thing that you don't play western games anymore. Unless you count the .io games that honestly are a lot more fun than they should be with friends for a casual time I can't really remember a western game I've played beyond some random indieshit, and that was because I needed something to play.

There are examples of games that do last years, but I will agree that people eventually move on for one reason or another.

Have shooters grown since they first started? Have they gone through a multitude of settings? Storytelling? Game mechanics? Special abilities for being better and worse than other players during a match? More players? Hell a good portion of the shooter genre have gone with a more realistic approach to satisfy not just private users who want a more realistic experience but also defense contractors and military to provide a good training environment for their troops to train when they aren't in the field or on the job to help build leadership and tactics. Hell, even puzzle games often have a multitude of modes, a story line and lovable characters these days. Asking MMO's to get better as time goes on is not a ridiculous thing.

Is a nice casual themepark MMO a bad thing? Not by itself, no. and it is a successful business model, at least for a little while. But the genre has issues that are often glaring, and retaining players while also trying to bring in the new is a big focus, and to keep players in that state of wanting to be in that game, it has to make an effort to at least not feel like something that's been done before, lock and step. Even if it's something as simple as making crafting more in depth and player based would go a long way to ensuring that. Hell, making it so that players get to socialize far easier is another thing.

You said you never played WoW and there's nothing wrong with that at this point I'd commend you for not wasting your time on it but that's another story famalam, but let me explain it's biggest issue. It's issue is that you never really need to socialize. Looking for group made it so you never have to do much more than press a button and do other things while waiting for a que to say you can go into the dungeon now (Complete with teleport straight to the entrance). While it made things nice and easy, you might be lucky to get a "Hello" out of anyone. Raids are about the same way. You can easily get into a big group of random people for an easier raid and still get access to pretty much the same items and experience the same content. And beyond the occasional shit talking (muh dps against yours and all that) you won't see much unless someone fucks up. You can now join up for things extremely easy, but you don't need a guild or to know people in a guild anymore, you don't even have to say a damn word. I think you'll agree with me that making an MMO not rely on the players is a large mistake in the long run, even if the 1.5 million subscribers number some user threw up here last week is bullshit, the game is dying.

I have heard some good things about the PSO series, although it was before I had decent enough internet to play it. Same with Ragnarok Online. As for Black Desert, wasn't that the game that got heavily gutted of a lot of interesting features to what it is today? Not saying that it's combat from what I remember seeing looked pretty dang good for an MMO (better than some action games for sure) but I think I recall seeing that.

I really do want a fun, deep MMO with great gameplay. Graphics can take hits as long as the game itself is well optimized and smooth. But I miss the days of messing around with people instead of playing everything like a single player game. I do think that it may end up having to be that you need to force a party or just socialization of everyone in general, whether it be in game politics or just general leveling, but I think we'd have to see some drastic changes that also end up being successful changes before we even go that route

This problem is has spread to all other types of games as well. Every thing has become too safe because cry babies cry for balance and protection when they meet a random asshole or just someone plain better than them. Gone are the days where they had to suck it up and gitgud. Match making systems just make it even worse because instead of one cry baby they run around in teams now leaving any match they have a hint of losing. It's so rare to see come backs now because everyone just gets mad or leaves or the leader can drag an entire party out with him with no warning. Also the death of custom servers has made this awful because everyone is forced to group and play on the official servers. You can go to a fuck around server to mess around, you can't go to the server with cheats on for a change of pace, you don't have a /comfy/ server to hang out on with your regular group. Instead all of this has to happen on the official servers and we're forced to bother/kick randoms who are put off the community all together because of it. Generally they first run into the good players that way and they remember your names. So when they finally do get decent instead of sticking around and playing a full game they leave half way through then use an excuse about how you're all assholes because you kicked them that one time when they were a total newbie. Even though it was nothing personal and you just needed the room for your friend or the 5 randoms before him were spamming bullshit down the microphone or begin annoying just because. Worse yet all the cry babies will tell him

Just to rage quit and use it as an excuse again for doing so. You know the types, the ones that take it ultra serious all of the time in public games but leave the second they see you're going to put up a fight instead of letting them stomp you. They reach a level where they can beat up on newbies all day but can't even face a drunk group of friends that just play a lot. They assume every group they play against is MLG or whatever the tournamentfags use these days. These are the same people that constantly whine about balance, or something begin cheap, as long as it isn't the cheap strategy they use or one they haven't seen before. They cause something fun to get patched out every month or so until the devs get sick of the constant whining and give up on doing updates all together. Then they latch on to that dying game and use every exploit they know about against newbies in public games that don't know how to counter it thus killing any hopes of having new blood to play with. They whine and do all this bullshit then have the nerve to call the rest of the community toxic.

Football isn't delayed for rain. The only reason they will delay or take a time out for weather are lighting within a mile of the field and hurricanes/tornadoes/earthquakes. Rain/Snow no matter how heavy doesn't make a difference.

World of Warcraft eternally poisoned the well.

Well Guild Wars 2 manages to not suck somehow, wait for next expac though.

as someone whose never played a sandbox MMOunless NWN1 PWs count, would someone tell me what the difference between a sandbox and themepark MMO is aside from being able to make your own content in sandbox MMOs?

I'm sorry user, but we're talking about reality here. In what universe do you live where MMO devs cater to competitive players instead of carebear forum babbies?

Everyone who unironically uses this term should be showered in toxic waste.
Quitters are the absolute worst. I've been playing Rocket league recently and almost without fail the moment the enemy team gets a couple points over you one asshole on your team quits. It's ridiculous because the matches are fucking five minutes and even a 1 - 3 can be made 3 - 3 in the last 30 seconds of the match.

Instant gratification kills the mind and this is the result.

You don't necessarily "make" your own content, but the sandbox MMO will give you the tools to make your own fun and leave you to your own devices. This gives the player the chance have a unique playthrough of the game in that the actions he takes are his own and not planned for by the developers. Themepark MMOs often don't even allow you to travel the world freely because "lol enemy territory, wouldn't want to do something dangerous and get killed would ya?". The entire experience is on-rails and identical to the next guy playing it.

You can't even be infamous in a modern MMO anymore. Various player mixing techs, huge servers, etc. prevent ever forming anything like a real community. GTA Online is a good example as primarily by incompetence it's the only modern AAA game with a lot of the '90s PK feel to it but you'll /almost/ never run into the same people you've fucked with due to matchmaking so no cool rivalries form.

LOL!

competitive PvPers aka tryhards(who are sometimes competitive PvEers too) are the reason that time equaling skill(not counting levels below the reasonably attainable level cap) is a bad thing in an MMO

take private vanilla WoW servers that are currently out for example

disregarding bugs and the corruption of GMs where applicable, competitive PvPers are going to always make premades in battlegrounds(so always WSG unless its AB or AV weekend or AV just came out less than a month ago) and queue dodge in order to always fight PuGs so that they get tons of honor
not only that, but they'll always make sure they have a specific combination of classes around and always have at least 100 free actions potions, limited invulnerability potions, invisibility potions, major healing, mana, and rejuvenation potions, max level bandages, goblin land mines, thorium grenades, AND arcane bombs(if its at least a year into the server's lifespan), and even multiple FLASKS on their persons, and all be blacksmith/engineers with the 30 second fear immunity trinket, and all have tidal charms as well to boot

when you're just a ragtag group of 10 guys of varying classes who don't know eachother and aren't expecting to use 500+ gold worth of consumables for every single PvP encounter and you're faced up against those guys(usually alliance on PvE servers or either faction on PvP servers) how do you expect to beat them even with all the skill in the game?

those same tryhards also often do that in world PvP if the other faction suddenly decides to not queue for battlegrounds, even if its a PvE server in which case they try to abuse exploits such as standing flagged near people in stealth(with friends nearby) hoping that that warrior uses whirlwind or demoralizing shout, or that that shaman uses fire nova totem, or that that paladin uses consecration, or that that mage uses frost nova when an npc gets close to him

they want their theme park MMO to be LORD OF THE FLIES ONLINE (even if the MMO was specifically designed to make that not be the case)because they cooperate with eachother

also, black lotus/devilsaur cartels; usually theres only one, but sometimes there might be two, MAYBE

it doesn't matter if the devs cater to tryhards as long as the devs simply enable them to be better than everyone else because of something other than skill

well i guess i went off the subject, but tryhards are still a big reason that MMOs aren't so good these days

Horrible idea for multitude of fucking reasons.

they're supposed to make you a zombie, that's why. those two factors themselves make it unfun whether you realize it or not. making a fun MMORPG wouldn't be possible in this economy because it wouldn't be profitable enough. nowadays if you aren't turning massive dosh you're already "wasting potential". unless if you can get a team of honest to god, hard working devs together and pair them with share holders who harbor a deep love for games instead of profit you won't get a fun MMO. since both of those are about as rare as unicorns these days, it seems like an unlikely union.

kill yourself

i don't think that's true. you can make all characters fun by making them imbalanced in their own respect. that way the person who knows both his own and his opponent's character better will prevail by taking into account his opponent's strengths and playing around them as well as maximizing on his own.

but what if 50% or more of players are near the skill cap and know all the classes thoroughly?

great screenshot but
for what purpose?

then you need to make your game more difficult. that said, for a game to have 50% or more skill capped players is a very rare occurrence. it's almost unrealistic. maybe for shit like pokemon or something.

I've never played WoW long enough for my opinion on that specific game to be meaningful at all.
I don't see how this is the fault of competitive players, not even the 'tryhards' you're speaking of in your example. That's completely on the developers for designing their game that way.

Then what? Are you saying you don't want people to learn the different roles in a game that pits you against other players?

I used the site's screencap function which apparently adds a watermark.

It's automatically added when you use Holla Forums screencap feature
pic related

How do you get a blue name?

huh, i didn't even know we had that

You gotta have Holla Forums Premium.

it was added relatively recently (as in sometime the last 8 months) you just select the posts you want to screencap then press the screecap button beside the update button at the bottom of the page

i see, thanks

people describe wow as a themepark mmorpg, but the experience is only identical if you subject yourself to it. thing is, people just rush to the end game

well ill give you that first part
i would prefer players learn their classes, but realistically theres gonna be people who don't know their classes that well(often teenagers) and still manage to make it to the max level
as for the others, well, if everyone is imbalanced im not sure if anyone would be imbalanced unless it means oh this class has these huge strengths and these huge weaknesses
id just rather that an entire pvp engagement not have the victor be determined by who mashes the button that gets the first hit in first

From games with fuck huge mazes and aggressive enemies where you can have like 10 weapons into corridor shooting galleries with enemies standing there waiting to be killed and the ability to wield 1-2 guns at a time?
Sure fucking thing shooters have grown.

Have anything worthwhile to actually contribute now that you're done pretending to be retarded or are you the real deal?

not even fucking autistic text games are safe
i stopped playing this one because of all the carebear changes that got made over the years

A lot of retarded children thought SC2 was good because it was the first fighting game they played and were too shit to realize how bad it was.

In terms of balance and gameplay it was a downgrade from Soul Calibur.

...

Well glad that retard title was all but confirmed for you. Want to actually contribute?

Honestly, I consider a proper MMO to be consisting of five parts: The mystery of exploring a big world, socializing and communicating with other players, the danger of enemies or other players knocking you down if alone or not careful, working together as a party or guild and forming new bonds in the process, and a thriving economy due to crafting and skilled merchants.

One of these is dead because certain autists (you know who you are) won't stop datamining every update to spoil everything for everyone in seconds, another is ded because between bots, autists and China no MMO economy can ever work unless automated forever, another is ded because carebears and spergs lose their spaghetti the moment MUH PWECIOUS PIXEL EPEEN is threatened and scream at the devs to remove all PvP forever, and the last two are kill because not only are people lazy and legit treat the game like just about any single player game (even going as far as to say they never want to interact with others because they play the game for themselves, not to ever bother with anyone), but they also get sheparded into duty/party/raid finders and left with a FUCK PUGS mentality due to such, until no one is happy. Leading to the MMO just because another copy-pasta of WoW and the continued downfall into the end of MMOs because of such few things listed above.

You are GREATLY exaggerating how often that shit happens.

You crave social interaction, but can't get it in your normal life, so MMOs are your only option. Every MMO is just a shitty singleplayer game without any immersion, but with hundreds of people playing it at once.