Fate

What is this about?

Well, yeah, since they're doing it to make a new waifu for people to fap over, not to shill muh strong womyn.

I can get behind that. Complaint withdrawn.

Saber is shit.
A shit character and cancer upon teh franchise

This always gets me thinking that westerners have too many sacred cows to ever do this with their own literature or history. Personally, I've always wanted to see something like Koihime Musou or Sengoku Koihime, but during the American Revolution instead of Three Kingdoms China/Sengoku Japan. Naturally, it would never get anywhere near even a planning phase because "Muh history! Muh realism!" Fuck those people. I WANT to see Thomas Jefferson gender bent as a shortstack dominatrix that pretends to be a sweet girl but fucks every guy she sees.

trash.

...

This is not okay.

You know how it would turn out. All the genderbent characters would be ugly cunts drawn by tumblr with fire in a trashcan personalities and the story would endlessly beat you over the head about muh slavery muh raycism muh let tyrone fuck every general with his superior African seed.

Also, you're waifu a shit. Who the fuck wants used goods, and even worse, used goods that fuck around?

Saber is a shit leader, that's why she got betrayed and died like a bitch. She's g a r b o

hormone golems like you belong in a furnace

he's a trap you fucking cockslicer

I just want to put all trannies in a gas chamber and be done with it.

I don't care what the fucking japs say, Vivian is a girl and has a pussy.
Nothing will ever convince me otherwise, not even if Nintendo themselves demand I accept her being a trap. Traps are gay. I AM NOT GAY

better game better girl

I'll bet you people also think the MC of every work of fiction ever written is the author's self-insert, too.

If there's a female character, either I should want to protect her or I should want to bang her. If she's a villain it's fine for her to be an insufferable cunt but if she's supposed to be a protagonist, that stands.
Sluts are neither. You are bad news.

saw that coming a mile away.

...

Best Type-Moon girl

worst post I've seen today

Please die Tumblr.

Die.

...

Shiki can kill servants.

So can Shirou.

Other than the "fucks every guy she sees" part, I actually agree with you. Respecting history is fine, but saying "you can't have fun with this setting!" is just puritanism.

That's not creativity OR good.
You're just realizing your plot is utter shit and you need known names to get attention.

Eiyuu Senki is basically this with all kinds of historically relevant personas. Beethoven is especially moe, and the fact it plays like a simplified Rance also helps.

You can find a fully translated version, with all the sex scenes and some extra Vita content floating around.

...

...

Add that to the list of things I want but can never have.

You take that back

Yep, she is the best futa.

Shirou and Arturia are perfect for each other. They both have exactly the same kind of survivor's guilt and hero complexes, and it takes them butting heads with another person exactly like themselves to pull their heads out of their asses.

But they still both get the worst of it in the original timeline. Arturia dies unable and unwilling to change her downfall, and Shirou continues his endless rampage of self-sacrifice until he meets with a fate worse than death in the form of becoming Archer.

Oh well. That's how the story goes. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Silly, user, all waifus must be pure or they wont sell!

Doesn't stop the kikes from feasting on the scared cows.

You mean Shirou, Rin and Saber are perfect for each other. UBW Good Ending is best ending.

At least saber has the true ending.

ftfy

Rin is the perfect match for Shirou if you consider the best match to be someone who can fix his shortcomings and snap him out of his hero complex.

Arturia is the closest match to what he is on a personal level. He probably would have summoned her even without Avalon due to the similarity of their internal struggles and approaches to life.

Sakura is the best match for Shirou if you like worms, rape, being made of swords, and killing off countless innocents to white knight for some damaged goods.

...

Do you even Shirou?

Wasn't it canon confirmed that Rin, or anyone, will never be able to snap Shirou out of that? Removing his hero complex kills the Shirou.

Rin is best for Shirou, but Saber is more similar to Shirou. This is fact.

Only ending that's it's absolutely canon that Shirou doesn't go full Archer is Sakura ending and nothing else.

UBW ending supposedly leaves Shirou at a very low chance of going full Archer. Not that he would regret going full archer, anyways.

The other endings is a "chance to become Archer", so it's not guaranteed either. Besides thanks to the magic of franchises Archer has got it better then the original story implies.

Vid related

Would be more accurate to say removing his hero complex removes Shirou
His entire personality is his hero complex.This is infact the specific reason he is made of swords,He was a being so empty that merely holding onto a scabbard turned his entire conceptual being and place in the universe into a sword.

The only thing Rin can't snap Shirou out of is jackhammer mode.

Why live?

...

Shirou is love. My respect and admiration for that man transcends boundaries. I wish I could offer my everything to him. no homo

Offer him a vagoo for his ponos. Accompany the gift with a thorough set of instructions.

Why does the VN keep saying Rin has black hair when it's clearly light brown?

SABER IS PURE FAGGOT

The fundamental issue about Shirou that most people fail to understand, being secondaries that never actually read the fucking VN, is that he's not a normal person. He's been a broken human being ever since the fire. He devoted his entire life to becoming a hero, in the hopes of making himself smile the same way he saw Kerry smile when he found him in the fire. But he became so dedicated to it that he never really understood that himself.

That Shirou - the one who becomes a Hero of Justice - is best suited for getting with Saber in the True End. So long as he knows that at the end of the line, out in the distance, someone is waiting for him, he can persist. He will die at a young age, yes. He will likely make a contract with the world. But his internal world of swords will never be contaminated by smoke and fire. He will wait, just as Saber waits, until the day they reach Avalon.

Otherwise, that Shirou is doomed to meet a single fate - the same one that Archer did. And only at the end of the line will he finally come to realize the mistakes that he made. Being with Rin just might save him, since having her around greatly adds to his survivability and can keep him partially toned down. But he's still not going to live to a very old age, even if he does avoid making that pact with the world.

That's the Near Side Routes. The Far Side route - Heaven's Feel - gives two alternatives. The infamous Mind of Steel presents a Shirou who will most certainly burn himself out, killing anyone to pursue his ideal. The alternative to that, the actual ending to the story, shows the other way - Shirou giving up on his borrowed ideal and deciding to put everything on the line for a single person that he loves, and becoming something more akin to an actual person. The HF Shirou is just as determined as the other variants, but has a real shot at living an actual, successful life. His sense of justice will never go away, but if it means hurting Sakura, he'll put all of that aside. He just might actually live to see the age of 50.

That said, Sakura is easily the shittiest girl in F/SN. Hollow Ataraxia fixes the problems with her in a very big way, and makes it clear that either her or Saber are the best for Shirou to be with. Rin? She's clearly the best girl of the three. But not for Shirou.

It's not like any of them are the real "best girl" anyways.

Fuck off my board.

She's a Welsh slag who probably had hundreds of sheep shag her. Burn her along with that French slag we raped before burning her.

My nigger

Why do you have to remind me user?
This is almost as bad as tfw no tsukihime remake

I bet you this user closed the thread after getting the first few replies lel

The greatest sin Nasu ever committed. I can forgive him for all the retcons, lore-rape, and cashcowing he's doing now. None of that actually effects FSN itself and can be safely ignored.

But not giving Ilya a route is different. That's unforgivable.

What a pussy

Fuck Fate.
Fuck Nasu.
Fuck Saberfaces.
Type-Moon will keep milking the Fate cashcow forever.

Don't worry boys. Routes are for those who need the extra screen-time.

I don't want HD Melty. I like the style. I think it has an old-school charm to it. And Tsukihime remake is going to be shit anyways.

But do you know what we do need? A fucking Notes OVA.

At least they cant ruin those games they forgot

There's still hope, Nasu apparently is fucking off with writing Fate himself and letting others do it. Maybe once Nasu fucks off that he can go back to writing the good shit.

????

The only solace I have is knowing that "ellen" is getting nothing in bed for the rest of their(?) life.

You never got to fuck Illya, so she didn't get enough.

Is that a Monster Hunter sound effect that sounds the moment she grabs the staff?

Get with the times, old man.

It's called Realta Nua The Last Episode. It was made because Takahashi, much like OP, was a massive faggot that cared more about waifus than the game story.

Reminder that comic books are currently using swapped gender characters.

Reminder that Americans can't do this shit "just for fun" and instead shoehorn shitty politics into the mix.

Reminder that aforementioned books are selling fucking terribly these days and the creators are blaming white males for "not wanting diversity in comics".

Reminder that the west is a cancerous mutation, even though the east are hiveminded faggots that die like worker bees.

Rin never did this. UFOTable got permission to go out of their way to show you she couldn't accomplish this in their epilogue.

So you have no idea whatsoever how the Fuyuki Grail War works. Got it.

And you're a waifufaggot on top of everything else. All of you need to kill yourselves.

...

Started okay and devolved immediately into waifufaggotry. Fuck off.

It's a fucking eroge, what do you expect?

it hurts on an hourly basis.

The common sense and character appreciation that was in the fandom to begin with before it all devolved into waifushit arguments, powerlevel arguments, and eventually normalfaggotry as TM ceased to pump out anything that wasn't Fate related.

You know, the time before the world fell under darkness.

Reported for being a disruptive and retarded faggot.

Oh yes, disrupting a WAIFUTHREAD outside of Wednesday is the epitome of faggotry. Where the hell is your containment thread and how/why did you leave it?

I'd say it's closer to graphite.

I just wanted to see Takeda. They give us that stinger at the end and then nothing but blue balls for the rest of time.

Arcueid is definitely one of the most lovable of them all, though I'm not sure if I like how Carnival portrayed her. I saw her more as being a charming woman in Tsukihime over the cutesy girl the anime made her out to be.

Reminder that Marvelous was contracted for TWO Extella games, so you're getting mediocre musou again soon.

The franchise is now used goods, much like its best maido.

Such is the nature of Take Moon/Carnival Phantasm—exaggerations to the extreme. You either laugh at it, or you get really mad.

I'm personally more buttflamed that there was actually a cute Akiha story in those volumes they didn't animate. It was actually some of their better material.

Hell, they gave Tsukihime the shaft across the board. Take Moon had some pretty fun stories in it and the animation studio just went with fanservicey shit instead.

t.commie

Actually, Archer comments that Shirou with Rin is not likely to suffer the same fate as him, since Rin (or Rin and Saber) can actually anchor him somewhat and not let him go completely off the deep end.

Archer actually protects Shirou when he fights Gil by summoning Rho Aias, he's given up on trying to kill himself because he sees another path Shirou can take.

Arthuria plus Guinevere is the best faggotry that can be.

No one can stop Shirou from doing this. The whole point is that he is a "sword" and will do what he was forged to do, in this case live up to Emiya's insane ideal. That's the only thing he can actually do.

I just wish for a game where I get to play with Archer's powerset. Encounter an enemy, copy his weapon and use it against him, then insert hot swapping weapons in the middle of a fight to make crazy combos.

>He just might actually live to see the age of 50.
He is already dead in that moment, merely a spirit animating a magical puppet.

Pretty much. Nevermind the absurdity of Rin believing she can actually change a man (naive woman think 101); fact of the matter is Shirou is superhumanly stubborn about how he lives. Even if the possibility of avoiding being Archer exists, he'll persist in being an ally of justice because it's his only functioning directive. The one exception is when he threw away absolutely eveything in an instant to care for Sakura (and paid for it with interests).

Sounds Devil May Cry-ish. Doubt Marv of all studios would develop something that involved or complicated. But yeah, I'm with you on this one.

I don't think Rin is nearly as naive as to think she can stop Shirou, she's seen firsthand that he is utterly insane. What she hopes, and what Archer entrusted her with, is to make sure that Shirou has something besides living up to the ideal.

He'll never stop being what he is, but if she (and Saber) can give him a family, something to come back to he might think twice about throwing his life away.

shiki>shiro

played both tsukihime and fate stay night, all routes and it feels exacly what this thread already pointed out about shiro and his only reason and purpose in the unverse is trying to become a hero

shiki is similar, his bloodline is forcing him to destroy supernatural beings even when he doesn't realize it himself, it's his only purpose in life because he comes from nanaya family

when comparing those two i felt like shiro is protagonist made for "casual audience" while shiki is more complex character

shiki has been presented and developed more by the story and his behavior with "show, dont tell"

shiro had fuckload of internal monologue and dialogues with others "why do u want 2 b a hero" "i must b a hero i can only do that" repeat ad nauseam

I'm not sure if I agree. I didn't feel like Shiki had much development going on with his character even without comparing to Shiro. He was pretty much just a normal dude with a genetic predisposition to kill and sometimes rape supernatural beings.

Shirou is basically what happens when you take the usual shonen protagonist and give him a "realistic" reason for the illogical behavior. Shirou is mentally ill, and many people that read/watch FSN miss out on this fact.

So in terms of power levels, it's
humans

on which basis you claim dead apostles being stronger than servants?

It's the difference between "We need to have more women and fewer men because women are underrepresented and men are bad!" versus "The more hot female characters we have, the more hot women we have to look at on screen at any given time!"

ORT is basically instakill and I'm pretty sure TYPEs trump mystic eyes. ORT is so fucking broken that it basically does not allow for the concept of dying to be imposed upon it.

Power levels are a worthless discussion in the Nasuverse. Nasu is an author of stories in which lots of twists happen. The entire setting bends to his will whenever he pleases.

If one day he wakes up and decides to have a TYPE defeated by a mollusk, that is what will happen, no matter how many greater-than signs you put into your posts.

There's still some hard truths, or at the very safe guesses to make.

TYPEs will fuck up anything that isn't on their level within seconds of entering their attack range. Yes, they can be killed, but just as with Shirou and Gilgamesh you need that one in a billion alignment of coincidences to make it work.

At least Nasu has a lore related meta reason why shit happens. If something is trying to kill humanity its gestalt will marshal enough firepower to ensure parity, and if that doesn't work it will just dump as many Counter Guardians as it takes to murder the shit out of everything.

...

It makes me think, I legit asked a tranny why she thought she was a boy. Her response? "I've had masculine hobbies and traits my entire life." She couldn't just say she was a tomboy, she had to go the full route and claim she was meant to be a man.

How does having "masculine" hobbies make you a man? How the fuck does she even know how to define what a "masculine" hobby is supposed to be? So a dude that reads romance novels is now a girl or something?

This is what they mean when they say "gender is a social construct". Basically, if you act like a stereotypical male then you're a male. It's dumb as fuck.

Haven't they been arguing about how masculine traits and hobbies don't define masculinity? Or is that just the guys who want to turn their dicks inside out?

Bad hill to die on. Tsukihime translated or no is the king of thick prose. Almost everything Shiki did and thought came with no less than five paragraphs per topic.

And mind you, I prefer Tsuki over Fate any day of the week. But truth is truth.

I don't think they have a concrete answer to the question. Whatever helps them shit things up for us is the answer of the day I guess.

Female Shiki was always better, too bad her love interest is a complete turd.

THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON ANIME

After Primate Murder became Merlin's familiar in another timeline
After Excalibur went from cool sword to The Last Phantasm
After Nasu broke his own rules about Servant requirements and made Thomas Edison a goddamned lion and also Shakespeare a Caster

Yeah, the solid blocks & bars that dictated Nasuverse disintegrated. Say the eulogy and wish it well, user. That ship's sailed.

Of course they don't have concrete answers, they're a bunch of autists and children that no one has ever said "no" to. They're going to keep pushing this retarded shit until they get themselves killed or collapse their families down around themselves and then get themselves killed.

I'm actually shedding more tears for what Type-Moon as a whole has become.

You do realize that THR Arc is literally a Saberface, right? You should count your blessings.

I don't much care for the rules of the universe since it was obvious Nasu was never going to do much else with it. I mean, everything in FSN is designed to obfuscate Archer's identity and justify Shirou's powers. He's there to break every rule in the book basically and look all the more awesome for it.

So?

It is the most potent Noble Phantasm of them all though.

I think they just ran out of famous warriors to use. Gotta sell that merchandise.

I actually think dude had more than a few dozen stories to tell in his verse. The hangup was that those stories weren't even given the chance at daylight.. Japan wanted more Saber, and his coworkers wanted to crank out more Pokémon with famous/mythic figures rather than tell those stories.

So a character that had an express purpose in a story that wasn't allowed to be completed was entirely retooled to fit both the popularity of the current milkcow, and also to be a cute mascot. More severely, Primate Murder and several other story aspects of the lore were DONTE'd, before they were even allowed to establish themselves as originally intended.

No, it was just a fuck-powerful Nobile Phantasm that served as the signature for King Arthur. It did not eclipse any other NP and wasn't a defacto Most Powerful Tool Ever until Realta Nua notes came along that declared it the most special, most beautiful, most powerful, etc etc etc Saber waifu banzai bullshit. It was one in the mix. But not it's the go-to best NP ever even when Enuma Elish exists as a concept or Ionian Hetaroi exists as a concept.

And that's the core fucking problem. Type-Moon isn't interested in stories, anymore. Just money. Full jew.

The entire design is shit, with or without the Saberface. The miniskirt is the worst part.

Entirely based on me hearing that Nrvnqsr could take a hit from excalibur, but I made the list in like two minutes.

I probably shouldn't have lumped in mystic eyes with bullshit tier, because it has clear limitations. Any character that can come back from death or doesn't die can deal with it. Zelretch could probably still do a number on ORT though.

And they got rid of the granny skirt, which is unforgivable.

A large part of gay/tranny movements is recruiting. Basically finding anyone young and confused/vulnerable and converting/ruining them to their fucked up life. Misery loves company etc. Anyways that plus women being taught from a young age that white males are scary rapists is the reason tomboys don't exist anymore in the west, they all end up miserable sjw.

God. Where is her goofy, poofy hair? What did they do to her skirt? This isn't Arcueido. Who is this chick?

It's Saber. They're all Saber now

Reminder that saber is shit.

Primate Murder didn't become Merlin's familiar, the creature that might become Primate Murder became his familiar.

There are two types of worlds - "Fate" worlds where Heroic Spirits can be summoned, and "Tsukihime" worlds where they cannot. In the latter type of world, the creature that becomes Primate Murder is discovered by Altrouge Brunestud and made to consume human blood, turning it into what it became. In the former, Arthur/Arturia manage to defeat it in the form of a "Cath Palug", and Merlin spirits it away to Avalon, away from human contact. The Beast of Gaia feeds off of human conflict to grow strong; separated from it, it is unable to. Cath Palug is let loose in Fate/Grand Order into Chaldea, where it grew to love the main cast of the story. At the end, it sacrifices the whole of its accumulated power to keep your main companion alive.

Primate Murder was meant to be one of four "Beasts" humanity must overcome - Beast IV to be specific. Beasts I and II are defeated in the first half of Fate/Grand Order; the first half of Beast III is currently being dealt with; Beast IV was overcome without conflict. Beast V is unknown, Beast VI is a two-part Beast being hunted by Arthur Pendragon that is heavily implied to be Manaka and her pet (the Beast of 666) from Fate/Prototype, and Beast VII is the "last" one, whatever that implies.

It's the Last Noble Phantasm of Gaia. This isn't a change; it's always been that way, though it was never explicitly stated. It was last Noble Phantasm produced by the planet itself for human use. It's still nowhere near the most powerful in the series though.

It's the MGM lion head. The specific summoning also drew power from every US President, and was a very specific one performed in-story to create a composite "heroic spirit". That said, it's still pretty stupid.

Authors being Casters has been a thing for a while - Hans in CCC as an example that I believe is even older. They don't cast spells, but provide support in other ways, as part of a team affair.

I hate this new design so much.

Maybe, maybe not. He's done a few other stories in the same universe that are wildly unrelated to each other so I don't really think he had much of a wish to expand on the FSN stuff.

It's an alternate universe though, the whole point of having them is to fanwank.

And the power of a NP is directly related to how popular its legend is. You have to understand, Arturia isn't the real Arthur, and Excalibur isn't the real sword. They are a mix of truth and fiction, so when the legend says it's the sword of ultimate victory and then it gets juiced up with the fact it's one of the most popular myths around you end up with the "ultimate" NP.

It's not, it's just the most powerful, same as Gil was considered the most potent servant with a broken as fuck NP and then gets taken down by a dude that can't even be called a proper mage.

But there have been a few neat stories. Then again, he could write something else and he'd just end up having to bullshit his way around the hard rules of the universe like he did with Shirou, and then when he realized how utterly broken he is in terms of power he had to nerf him, twice.

I like the general idea behind Nasu's universe, but it's not well thought out lore outside of a few neat aspects.

I don't think he has it in him anymore after the last big fight.

Be honest with me, how hard is it, to actually get to the lore bits in Grand order?

I'm fairly sure Fate and Tsuki take place in the same universe, or at least Nasu went to some pains to mesh the two together.

Of the two examples he named one is relative to how evil of a fucker the intended target is towards humanity and the second is a reality marble. A fully charged Excalibur has still more raw power than either of them.

There's always going to be a few duds. I thought the idea behind fake Assassin was neat, for example.

...

Fuck you I'm still not playing your shitty mobile data miner.

My fuck up; I was originally just going to write about the ones that showed up so far and then changed half-way through.

If you can read Japanese? Easy.
If you can't? That's hell you're walking into.

They used to be in the same universe. It was actually Nasu that split them.

Fate/Labyrinth revealed that Dead Apostle Ancestors do not exist in worlds with Heroic Spirit summoning. Some of the characters do - Nero Chaos, for instance, and presumably Roa is about as well. Some are weaker, while others are just different (ex. Primate Murder). Most Dead Apostles are just shitters like the ones from Fate/Zero.

The Excalibur that Arthur uses is stronger than the one Arturia has, from what has been shown - EX-Rank vs. A++ Rank. Ea still beats out normal Excalibur in terms of raw power. Rhon is also more powerful. Of course, both Rhon and Excalibur Proto are bound by certain seals, which limit them in other ways.

Please do not actually play Fate/Grand Order.

nice birb

Materials III was the change.

Materials & Interviews clearly stated from mouth of the author that no one in the modern age at all had the power to become a Heroic Spirit or had any hope to touch the Throne of Heroes. Initial exceptions being those like Shirou who directly contracted with the Alaya, or anomalies like with the Moon Cell holding its own, separate storage of apparent and hidden phenomena.

But yeah sure fine a faggot thief banker from Jersey is a heroic spirit. Mmkay.

If you have Realta Nua then there's a somewhat happy ending for her if you complete all the routes

Isn't it coming out this Summer in English?

mediacraft.rockuapps.com/articles/news-fate-grand-order-is-coming-out-in-english-this-summer-2017

He didn't. He went on record in Extra CCC's promotions to state that was to be his LAST Fate project. And yet, several years later here we are.

This one specifically is because merchandising.

That's not what I'm contesting. I understand very well just how popular Arturian legend is, and Excalibur in its own rights had a lot of famous backing and justification. But then Materials III was published, and suddenly it's a Last Phantasm and even MORE SPECIAL and that's a lot of malarky. It was already fine as presented—TM didn't need to take extra steps to make it special, just like they didn't need to write Last Episode to assauge Takeuchi's waifu guilt.

Fuck, if you're gonna go that far then where the fuck is my Sacchin and Illya route?

I should emphasize here I wasn't just talking about Ea's power or Iskander's NP power. I'm talking about their concept. The ideas and themes they held that made them powerful. Honestly the way that Urobuchi described each in the novels was what imprinted them in my own mind more than any other factor. His descriptors about Excalibur as Saber killed the Shoggoth were more prominent than the mechanical descriptions used in the original visual novel. That much was fine, and not needing of extra bells and whistles.

Not what Realta Nua and the resulting Materials brought along. That's extra needless work, tampering with shit that wasn't broken to begin with.

Shirou's not broken. This, again, is a troubling issue part and parcel with this series and fan interpretation. Nothing about Shirou is broken or overpowered—likewise with Archer. There are no tiers, no "who is better", no guaranteed victory. You would think Hollow Ataraxia's fight scenes would put the concept to rest, but I guess not.

Reminder that Zelretch is not a powerhouse and that author himself said this fight with Type-Moon was a fluke. Reminder that he's an old codger whose training/learning regimen drives apprentices insane as a gag, not as a display of how deep and amazing his skill is. Reminder that this guy is a buffoon and a meddler who shouldn't have but helped to create a ritual that fucked Fuyuki, Japan, for two centuries running.

Only the first two Orders, I believe. Which really sucks, since the "good" material that Nasu wrote doesn't really start coming out until Camelot (arguably America), with the exception of a few Interludes and events.

The thing about modern people was a bit of a misnomer. The actual issue was that a person in the modern age could never really become a "master" of any weapon; modern weapons will always surpass the owner. Someone like Shirou kind of fucks the system because he is a weapon. Tesla was deemed important enough to human history to become a proper Heroic Spirit, with his Noble Phantasm literally being electricity.

Edison's Noble Phantasm is W.F.D. - World Faith Domination. It's an anti-mystery effect resulting from the mass manufacture of film, the lightbulb, and other such technologies. It's an anti-population Noble Phantasm that wipes away mystery, essentially meaning that magic and shit does not work in the area around him. Despite this, he's a shit-tier Heroic Spirit. He's summoned in Strange Fake as a Berserker, taking into account the anecdotes of his hatred of others; his body is an artificial, robotic one. In Grand Order, he's summoned in a "sane" state, but he's actually too weak to fill the Caster class container; as a result, partial degrees of the wraiths of each US President are simultaneously summoned with him, turning him into a different kind of nuts. It's actually noted in his stat sheet that he's shit tier in terms of his ability to do even shit like Item Creation; his skill-set is Concept Improvement and Mass Production. Which, in the story, is used to mass-produce robots to counter-act an army of Irish warriors Queen Medb pops out of her cooch.

It's still stupid. But this is the series that gave us the Tiger Dojos.

I was about to write something and then I realized that "broken" here meant OP, not "fucked in the head".

Because yeah, with the first case, Shirou is confirmed below Bazzet level at the absolute height of his power.

Cash cow crossover to hype the Prototype line and muddy already opaque waters.
Fuck Type-Moon.

That's not what EX means. It's the working equivalent of "Value Undeterminable". Can't be measured what it is, or what it does, and barely dictates what it means.

Ea isn't EX level because it's some amazing beamforce that can out-kamehameha Excalibur. It's EX because attempting to define or measure a concept like "Reality rendering blade that cuts apart ALL THINGS" results in melted minds. Inonian Hetaroi is EX not because of lolol zerg rush, but because there are thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of Heroic Spirits tied impossibly toward the same juncture of a dream they held in their living moments, all in unison, with no disruption or deviation. Tens of thousands of soldiers, their king, and the goddamned horse all reached for an ends of the world in their travels and it stayed with them after death—a working symbol of Iskander's insane charisma and drive.

If we're talking power, again Shooting Hundred Heads dwarfs anything Ea or IH or Excalibur's capable of. Hell, Gae Bolg is the more efficient killing tool. The ranks don't symbolize power—they never have.

Fuck Bazzet, every single power she and her clan have is a complete asspull.

And just to add, Nasu has been shitting on Shirou's powers ever since he published FSN because he was too stupid to figure out how OP he made him in the context of the universe he created, so he has spent all the years since FSN came out overcompensating in the other direction.

Not what it was about. Early Materials and the VN itself clarify this. Gilgamesh wasn't just talking about "too many worms on this planet" for his own health. He was directly referencing the fact that humanity had reached a point of mediocrity.

To become a Heroic spirit was to, initially, defy the bounds of fate and alter the path of humanity on a whole, in accordance to the original canon. Mythological figures do that easy since their stories are by and large to serve that purpose. Again, though, keeping in accordance to the original canon, there were less and less figures capable of doing that in the modern age thanks in large part to the population boom of humanity and subsequent fall of deities. Can't defy a fate when the gods that usually deal out that fate are all dead.

In working essence, the only other way to achieve such a status is becoming part of the Alaya itself as a Counterforce Guardian, ie what Shirou did. A perfect working example of both qualifications is in the Material books. Joan of Arc was originally going to BE a Counter Guardian just like Shirou, but ended up being a presence in modern times that helped alter the paths in Europe, and became a Heroic Spirit in her own right, rendering said contract w/Alaya null and void.

The Moon Cell's candidates are also explained away, as NONE of the Servants the Moon Cell calls upon are from the Throne of Heroes. Point-blank, you cannot draw pure gods (Tamamo, Arcuied) or vague/anonymous concepts (Nursery Rhyme) from the Throne. The Cell recorded the history, real & imagined, of Earth from mulitple parallel dimensions and the Moon Cell games were established using that data. Fuyuki's Grail drew from the Throne. Though I'm sure the after additions to the franchise threw all those concepts out into the cold (The Fate/Fatal Fake former April Fools joke becoming actual fucking canon what the shit, Nasu).

Wasn't always about a spirit's weapons. Just in little cases like Perseus (before Fate/Prototype, mind you).

Yet every story he released actively counters this. Not that it makes much sense if you ignore his characters. How exactly did humanity reach mediocrity? It's much more plausible to stipulate that the requirements to stand out have become all the higher.

We've discovered all the easy stuff there was to discover, what's left is the kind of shit human minds were not equipped to handle. We've transcended the need for heroes because we have created a whole social infrastructure that turns war into a collective output, we have turned killing each other into a science. We don't need magical spears and swords that can rewrite reality, we can just nuke the shit out of anything that looks at us funny.

I think Kiritsugu had the right of it when he shows his disdain and mockery for magi conventions and customs. He knows full well that humanity has left them behind, senile old relics slaving away at a pipe dream and creating tragedy and misery wherever they go.

Of course humanity gave up on "heroes", most of them were complete dicks and mass murderers.

...

...

So should I read Fate/stay night?

Do you like visual novels? If so, yes. If no, maybe. It's a pretty good read.

Dont do it, user!

Not exactly, since his characters by and large always seem the exception to the various rules established. And they're made that way to show the reader the stark contrast in "What is normal" vs "What is weird". Shiki was a weirdo—instinctively his classmates growing up with him knew he was something that shouldn't even be alive, so he was largely ostracized. Ryougi was likewise a werido and incredibly difficult to deal with unless you, too, were weird (or just boring as fuck as her future husband was). Shirou is broken. Kiritsugu is broken. The Extra and Order protags are generally blank slates for the sake of ease of self-insertion, as the enviornments they exist in are so alien that there's no feasible way for a writer to create good empathetic ties with it.

As for humanity's mediocrity, it's easily defined. The loss of the gods equated to a loss of potent magic and several Sorceries. The advancement of technology compounded that loss. The Magus Association (Atlus, Clocktower, Sea of Estray, etc) was made to stem the loss of magic and continue magic's ultimate pursuit—the contact with the Root of existence.

People with potential for magecraft are in low, low numbers even counting for the population of the Clocktower and Atlus. We hear and witness the exceptions to the rule because just watching the rule would be boring.

None of this is to say Gilgamesh was right about his assessment, but then he wasn't entirely wrong. Value in a thing that has several billion copies will be hard to discern thanks to the diluted numbers alone.

Not if you're going to contribute to the autism these threads are always filled with.

So fucking mad. I can't access my Vita's screenshots without CMA and updating the firmware. I don't know what Sony's thinking but I'm not putting up with their anti-consumer shit anymore.

And proof that the modern world can still create exceptional individuals that can go toe to toe with the most potent shit the supernatural world can throw at us.

But we don't need them. Sorceries are, by definition, things that you can't create through mundane means, and there's less and less of them because we have figured out so many of the mysteries of the universe that sorceries stopped being sorceries.

Really, all magi are doing is throwing a shitfit we took their toys away and they can't be top dogs anymore. The whole premise of humanity being mediocre is basically magi trying to justify their increasing irrelevance.

And Napoleon said that quantity has a quality all its own. Gil can stay an elitist dick, I'll hedge my bets on nukes and mass drives.

Nobodies saying nukes and shit aren't strong, their saying that the way society is currently built means that no one can claim to be super special and powerful on their own or at the very least it's incredibly difficult. How many people are associated with Exclalibur? King Arthur only. How many people have been involved with the creation and distribution of nukes. Thousands? Millions? Nukes are strong but no one person can claim to be the personal force of war that is a hero from the past.

And that's because the individual is less relevant.

Sure, you can be hot shit with your magical horse, armor and weapon and cut down a bunch of untrained peasants. So impressive.

Now try to pull that same bullshit against a modern military force and see how that one works out for you.

My point is that it was easier to stand out in the past because the vast majority of humans were powerless to fight back effectively, let alone have the time or means to devote to higher pursuits. There's a reason they call guns the great equalizer.

So we're agreeing I guess? Modern humans are all equal and therefore no one new can become a hero because there is no way to be exceptional?

Also King Arthurs Avalon would shit all over a modern military. Hell, Lancelot took control of a modern jet because it technically qualifies as a weapon, and then enhanced it. Meanwhile he has super durability and strength. Lancelot could wage war pretty easily.

No, we do not. What I'm saying it's that it's far more difficult to stand out in an age where every random faggot can kill you with the simple pull of a trigger and when civilization produces so much excess nearly everyone has the time and means to devote towards educating or bettering themselves.

The level at which an individual starts to stand out, and the things he need to do to accomplish this, have increased severely. There are ways to be exceptional, it's just that they are so much difficult to achieve.

You do realize she can do fuckall while inside it, right?

One guy that would get pummeled endlessly from every side. He has one jet? Who gives a shit, there's hundreds more where that one came from, along with AA missiles by the thousand.

So we're agreeing that it's harder to stand out in an age where everyone is equal, it's just incredibly hard? And, how would one become an exceptional exist. You state it is possible, but how?
Which ways?

Shouldn't people like George Washington, teddy Roosevelt , and Andrew Jackson be heroes though

No way to be kangs anymore.

I know you Holla Forums types are exceptionally stupid, but can you at least understand simple English?

Well, how about making an amazing discovery, or taking down thousands of soldiers by yourself?

What do you think is more impressive, cutting down a bunch of peasant levies with your magical artifact or killing a few hundred soldiers armed the same way you are?

They should, hence why Nasu's whole bullshit spiel falls apart. Why shouldn't Hitler be a heroic spirit?

People that did less impressive stuff than him are, why can't he be one?

Arthoria my waifu

No because we don't believe in bullshit as easily anymore, mostly because there are still faggots out there I'll have you know that think Bruce Lee could beat up 25 people at once in real life.

And I just had the thought of Elliot Roger becoming a hero.

You also seem to fail to realize how durable heroic spirits are as well.

No because there's nothing exceptional about them. Compared to any other US president are they that "powerful"? "intelligent"? Compare say any English King to King Arthur, can they do what King Arthur can do? Why can't they?

If anything I would say maybe Hitler would be as close an example as we could get to someone who would become a herioc spirit on charisma as an exceptional leader who rebuilt a nation from scratch. But even then, nothing makes Hitler able to kill more people than anyone else. Anyone can use a gun, anyone can use a nuke, anyone can use a gun to kill a thousand people, anyone can use a nuke to kill a million people.

You mean something that anyone who can launch a nuke can do? Literally anyone could kill millions of people right now if they had access to a nuke and the ability to launch it. Nothing exceptional about killing that many people in the modern age. It's completely possible for literally anyone to do it with the right tools.

Those other human soldiers that have the exact same ability as you to do the exact same amount of killing? Oh wait, that figure is fucking pitiful to the amount of damage a nuke would do. Why is that exceptional by the standards of The World? There's nothing impressive about that in the modern age. Back in the day that would have been exceptional though.

he would be an anti hero

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Well one lead a ragtag shitty group that beat one of the worlds best military powers at the time gained freedom for the new world at the same time. Also arnt Tomas Edison and Tesla servants I know they are in some game

Thomas Edison exists but his concept as a heroic spirit is so weak he needs others to reinforce the concept and all of stats are complete and utter shit. If Hitler ever became a servant he would be very similar with stats that simply can't compare to other heroic beings even with the reinforcement all heroes chosen by the counter-force get. Tesla is similar with how weak he his. So, continuing with the concept of if it were possible for a modern human to become a heroic spirit. Edison, who is the literally the most garbage of garbage heroes, would be the best modern humans could possibly maybe achieve.

Did you forget who won that war user? I like Hitler too but try to remember? Also, compare the size of the area that Hitler conquered compared to Alexander the great or Attila.

Here's some further explanation for why being good with a gun or nuke doesn't make you a heroic spirit. Remember what they used before guns and nukes? Swords, spears, arrows, etc. Using your logic, anyone that was sufficiently really good with these weapons and killed a large number of people should all be noble spirits as well. Except they are not. The thing that decides whether or not a heroic spirit is made is the counter-force or "the will of humanity to except extinction". The counter-force is also what people like Shirou make deals with to become Counter-Guardians. This force incorporates things that would useful to have in case humanity faces a calamity it can not resolve on it's own. Key words: it's own. The counter force doesn't activate against anything that guns or nukes can take care of, because, humans can take care of those threats without it. Same way the counter-force didn't activate anytime things couldn't be solved with swords and spears when they were the weapons of choice. This why exceptional humans are incorporated into the counter-force in the throne of heroes. So if at anytime the counter-force needs to destroy a gigantic threat to mankind, it can use those. So the only thing that the counter-force would want to take in are things that are incredibly exceptional, King Arthur as a concept is exceptional, Alexander the Great as a person is exceptional, Hercules as a concept is godly. All of these heroes have tools (noble phantasms) that only themselves and maybe a few other people can use (Gae bolg is not only Cu's spear but also his mentors Scathatch). Not just anyone can use Excalibur, not just anyone can use Gae bolg, not just anyone has Hercules divine body. Anyone can use a nuke, anyone can become a leader of a democratic country, anyone can use a gun. If someone does somehow manage to barely become a heroic spirit, they are so pathetic that they get shit on by everyone else. See how shit, Shakespeare, Edison and Tesla are stat and power wise to anyone else. So, even if someone, manages to break the incredibly strong new and nearly impossible ways to become a heroic spirit, they are still inferior in everyway power wise to any older spirit anyway. Though do be aware, they would get a power boost if they did get chosen by the counter-force to be a hero. Rank wise, the lowest a spirit can be is E, but even Rank E strength gives a heroic spirit the ability to crush a human skull with their hands with ease. Something that a human can't actually do in real life. Period. Compare to a Rank A like Hercules and you probably have someone who can rival Atlas who can literally carry of the weight of the world. So, if a modern human did get chosen to be a spirit, they would get a major power boost compared to a modern human, and get shit on by any other heroic spirit in history.

I guess that's because she actually did her own work instead of stealing someone else's. Also,

Did you miss this part?

Yes.

I was talking about old Georgey porgy

Mata Hari apparently can't even fight, she's only good for gathering information. As per her dialogues with you. Like all the modern servants are garbage

It's all so awful.

Oh not Hitler. Yeah "not getting your ass kicked" by an empire is something plenty of nations have done over the years. See Egypt resting everyone until Alexander. See Poland stopping Attila the Hun. "Not getting conquered" is kind of good I guess.

You know, this movie was good fun. Much better than Lincoln.

No, actually not at all. Humans are one case, but most spirits and demons can't be harmed in a lasting manner by conventional weapons. And in a Heroic Spirit's case, conventional weaponry wouldn't be able to do any damage at all. The exceptions you see in canon are the direct result of Servant influence.

- Kouzuki rips into Saber's shit because Medea's magic is deliberately augmenting his speed & strength to beyond superhuman degrees. He tries his moves on Archer later and Archer barely flinches with what was supposed to be a lethal blow, meanwhile Kouzuki gets chopped down by Bakuya.
- The whole dogfight between Lancelot & Gilgamesh wouldn't have been a remote contest were it not directly for Lancelot's Noble Phantasm that allows him to bear any weapon and if the weapon isn't a divine mystery/NP, it immediately becomes one under his control.

Even Akiha can take a few gunshots. What would end up happening is she'd lose control of herself, go Riot of the Blood, and eat the shooter + anyone else in the vicinity. The modern world cannot stand up to divine mysteries at all in a conventional manner.

Most magecraft can't be duplicated under scientific means. Sorceries may as well be quantum physics to the common researcher.

Reminder that both mean absolutely dick when the Dark Six invoke armageddon, turn humans into Etherlites and Liners, and the Types are all trying to murder the remnants of the plate.

Would Shirou be able to handle Ilya in their first encounter and Kirei in the final battle pretty easily if he had a gun?

Secondaries.

Look, a bullet isn't going to stop a Servant. It won't even damage their core without some form of enchantment. And you're talking shit about batalions but both the Irish heroes presented for F/Z and FSN were known for ripping through thousands of trained soldiers in a day. Hell, Chulainn deliberately set up a geas invocation of a one-on-one duel fighting Medb's army because he DIDN'T want to repeat that parcular kill count.

F/Z's story says point-blank if Giles's Shoggoth had actually made landfall, it would have had no end of fuel it needed to regenerate itself—a feat it was already doing near-instantly, even trapped inside Iskander's Noble Phantasm. A literal unkillable horror straight from Lovecraft

No modern standing army would be able to take down a Servant.

No.

Congrats you're a faggot.

Not an issue of durability. Magic must fight magic, since I have to simplify shit so it's understood. A regular bullet/knife/karate chop is going to do fuck-all against a Heroic Spirit, True Ancestor, Demon, Mythic Beast, or any other Nasuverse mystery you can think of. Zero damage. At absolute best (nuclear option), they'd have to spend a bit of time regenerating the minor damage or find a new source of prana considering their connection was just cut.

I can understand some guns that spirits use are magical but are you telling me the generic looking pistols let's say Rider from Extra uses are super special? Or the cannons on her ship?

But can bullet kill Shiki?

No, because Shirou at that time was not a trained marksman and guerrilla fighter like Kiritsugu was. Yes, Illya & Kirei can die from gunfire. No, it's not likely for them due to their training and the various ways they have to defend themselves. Self-explanatory, justt read the fight between Kirei & Kiritsugu.

The only magic guns in the series are the Mystic Code Kiritsugu designed and Drake's flintlocks. And yes, both are magical in nature, even though Drake's don't have the intended "unravel and rape" purposes that the Thompson Contender does.

But yes, Drake's armaments are obviously magical, as both her pistols and her ship/NP, The Golden Hind, are a symbol of her accomplishments. So yes, magic.

Major correction needs to be made here -

Humanity was heavily dependent upon the gods prior to King Solomon. So much so that all Magic came from the gods. When the Christian God gave King Solomon the Ten Rings, he was able to create the modern system of Magecraft through the use of Goetia. Humanity no longer needed the gods - it could act on its own, and do its own thing. This accelerated the decline of mystery, which came to a major head in the days of King Arthur, when the last dragon of Britain was slain. The age of the gods lingered in the world only in a few places, lasting the longest in the Americas; where the descendants of the seventy-two lines of magecraft went, the older mysteries vanished. Except this is not a bad thing - humans learning to become self-reliant, even if it makes them weaker, is a major part of their development.

Gilgamesh was summoned into the 90s and acquired the characteristics/traits that were prevalent in that era, especially after he made himself younger and "grew up" in it himself. That's what gave him the "humans are all fucked" mindset. He never thought to stop for a moment and look at the things humanity had done, because he was convinced it hadn't done enough. He ignored people like Shirou - and that was what cost him in UBW. His actions in the Babylonia chapter of F/GO? Much different.

On a meta level, there's Nasu himself. The Nasu who wrote Notes was basically an edgy teen. Now that he's gotten older, he's shifted to the full opposite side of the spectrum; the "humanity, fuck yeah" sort of thing. It's been a gentle progression across his works, but you'll notice that they've become increasingly hopeful and optimistic about the future as time has gone on. Misanthropic fans are going to be disappointed by this, while others are going to like it.

There is, however, one thing true about what has been said - modern humanity, as a whole, is lower in quality. The average person of [current year] is not much compared to the average person of Uruk. However, the average person is not much worse off. The real issue is the lower number of heroes. The correction for this is the Heroic Spirits themselves; the ancestor-guardians of humanity, who fight to defend it.

Tesla isn't weak. He has an EX-Rank NP that lets him blast enemies with lightning that ignores Magic Resistance, and and which be used passively without releasing its true name. He's not in the same league as the heavy hitters like Gilgamesh or Prototype Arthur, but he's at the very least a low A-Rank or high B-Rank Servant. He is, by far, the strongest modern Servant.

No longer canon, except in Tsukihime-type worlds. Fate-type worlds will persist. As a matter of fact, any world where humanity is pretty much fucked is actually marked down for deletion. Hell, the whole basic plot for act one of Fate/Grand Order is Goetia locates the points in time which are "pivotal" to humanity and drops Holy Grails to summon generally chaotic- or evil-aligned Servants and cause chaos; this results in history being fucked, which causes the Human Order to burn away the world and everything before it; by harvesting the collective energies of each singularity, he gathers enough raw power to unmake the world and rebuild it in his image.

The Dark Six fan theory about Fate/Extra has also been proven wrong, by the way. The only chance of Types showing up as they did in Notes is in a Tsukihime-type world where things go really wrong. And even that's not a guarantee.

Heroic Spirits are not immune to guns, they are immune to non-magic shit. A regular man with a rifle can't do shit a Heroic Spirit; another Heroic Spirit can pick up a fruit knife and harm them with it. If you give a Heroic Spirit a gun, they can harm another with it. Normally, guns can't be Noble Phantasms; even Billy the Kid as a Gunner candidate only has a "technique" that he employs, rather than the weapon itself being special. Lancelot is an exception, as any weapon he holds gains the properties of a low-ranked Noble Phantasm, making them excessively efficient in his hands.

Of note - this is a property they only have when they're Spirits. Heroic Spirits corrupted by the Grail Mud, like Saber Alter or BLACKED Berserker in HF, lost this defense. Also, while alive, the heroes would have had none of these advantages. So if you used a time machine to jump back to Camelot with a sub-machine gun, you could theoretically mow one of the Rounds down with it.

Yes actually they are, anything a Heroic Spirit comes with is inherently special for the purposes of harming Heroic Spirits.

Nasu is a retard. Put him in with all the other trash that got sonyggered.

Fuck off no one wants to buy that shitty mobile gaccha.

i like going down the rabbit hole that is fate lore

Secondaries are the worst.

Except how they are, see also your own followup

And no, a Servant with a regular fruit knife is just a Servant with a regular fruit knife. The fruit knife ONLY becomes a threat if the target is a squishy human instead of another Servant, there's an enchantment of some form on the knife of high enough value to harm the target Servant, OR the Servant holding the knife is Lancelot or someone with a similar Noble Phantasm.

Otherwise, it remains a normal fruit knife. Sole exception was Saber's bike in f/z, which she deliberately refitted with her own armor.

> Fuck off no one wants to buy that shitty sixteen servant j/k Apocrypha is actually horrible
If you're going to talk Fate lore but don't want to actually read all of the shit, you're in the same realm as the secondaries who start shit-posting on here after watching the animes. You're just pretending to know what you're talking about when you actually don't.

Wrong. It's been explicitly stated in interviews/materials that anything a Heroic Spirit uses can harm another Heroic Spirit, discounting special defenses like God Hand or Armor of Fafnir that neutralize below a certain rank. And even then, EX-Rank STR could feasibly deliver a strong enough attack with even that sort of weapon.

Then is Lancelots only real skill is that he gives generic items a rank up? Even though anyone can do what Lancelot can do?

...

Believe it or not, US should not aspire to be Japan.

Lancelot's skill is Eternal Arms Mastery, meaning that he instantly masters any weapon he uses. Just because you give Lancer a pistol doesn't mean she can do shit with it - more likely than not he'll fail a LCK check and shoot himself in the foot. Clearly they're Heroic Spirits, so they can learn. But then you run into the issue of defenses. Lancer using a pistol is using an E-Rank attack at best; Lancer using Gae Bolg has been stated by Nasu to actually have a shot at not just removing stocks from, but actually beating Berserker with careful use of his runes to rank-up the weapon.

Any weapon Lancelot holds is treated as a Noble Phantasm, which makes it more potent in terms of overcoming certain resistances (see also: Divinity, a skill which is useless, except that it lets you get fucked by Gilgamesh or Nobu, but lets you fuck Achilles). He also has mastery over it, meaning he can use it to its full capacity. The skill has another use as well, which is letting him wield weapons at full mastery even while under Mad Enhancement or affected by mind-altering shit; contrast Herakles who, while still amazing, could not use techniques like Nine Lives, or any of his various weapons besides the axe-sword.

Turning anything into a noble phantasm has many benefits, one of them being that he can summon the jet on command and it will repair itself from minor damage. For example if fake Assassin's sword was an actual noble phantasm and not just a sword he came with then bending it slightly wouldn't have worked long term.

That's not the weapon doing the damage, it's the Servant acting on the weapon. More likely than not that shit will crumble under impact it wasn't meant to handle, just like Lancelot's jet.

And I can't help it that you want to buy into the bullshit TM cobbled together to make Fate/Buy Gaccha relevant to dumbasses. That's your shortfall, not mine.

spin off bullshit.

LIFE IS A PUNISHMENT
OUR SINS WEIGH UPON US
THERE IS NO REDEMPTION

That makes more sense, I can accept that.

Damn I wish I could read Japanese so I could play Extra CCC and Grand Order. Even if I could, the reading level must be absolute bullshit due to made up words

Please do not actually play Fate/Grand Order.

The translator comments were especially hilarious during Babylonia, since about half of the cast was essentially speaking in the equivalent of Japanese trying to be archaic English, which meant things were really fucked. Especially King Hassan.

retarded as he is for the rest, poison actually was a tranny
also
they're so conflicted it's fucking ridiculous

But how else am I supposed to enjoy big boobie Arturia Lancer? Hmmmm?

I've already read/played Stay Night, Hollow Ataraxia, Zero, Extra, Apocrypha and Strange Fake.

...

Not how it works. He can't summon a jet. He stole it from a dispatch to intercept Gilgamesh. And the jet crumbled to shit once Lancer stabbed it with Gae Dearg because the beating it took during the dogfight w/Gil was way too much for the machinery to handle.

He then ripped the underwing gatlin from the remains and tried to freehand snipe Saber while in freefall, only to be handled by a Gilgamesh upset that he just lost his precious spaceship prototype that actually belongs to that Indian faggot whose name currently escapes me.

Why do indians have spaceships?

India has a space program.

Would Lancelot kill Gil if he has a shotgun?

He can and he does, frequently both as a running gag and it basically his shtick now.

I didn't say noble phantasms don't take damage I said it repairs itself from minor damage. It needs prana for that though, and noble phantasms can't be repaired when destroyed.

*continued
In fact he even summons and uses the gatling gun independently by itself in F/GO too.

Is there anything worth a watch from all those Type-Moon Animus/Movies?

The lore for Fate is so fucking insane that it really makes me want to into into it more, but the amount or side material and finding how they relate to each other sequentially and how canon they are is a little intimidating. I really need to finish Heaven's feel. Medea best girl Is it a trait for casters to be lovers/best buds with their Masters
Makes me wonder how well would the Nasuverse mesh with the World of Darkness. The power level arguments and lore interactions would be insane. But it's fun to think about.

So humanity gave up on heroes for being dicks while thinking up for more efficient and cruel ways to kill each other for increasingly petty reasons? We might not have heroes, but we do hold certain concepts like technology in similar regard.

That doesn't matter if he is going to contribute anyway.

I don't give a shit about Type-Moon other than Melty Blood but Kara no Kyoukai 5 was a fun movie.

I've never watched or "played" any Type-Moon stuff
Where do i start?

First you read Kizuato so you can realize how much Nasu pulled from that for Tsukihime. Then you find one of the twelve original copies for Mahoutsukai no Yoru and read that. Finally you have to masturbate to one of Nasu's sex scenes. This is the hardest part, and only a small percentage of people make it past this to because true type moon fags. I recommend the Len scene in Kagetsu Tohya or however the fuck they decided to romanize the title when they translated it from the Chinese version. If you achieve all this you are ready to shitpost about how Archer could totally beat up Goku and how Saber is your waifu.

I unironically masturbated to one of the Sakura sex scenes

Holla Forums is invaded by weebs with cancerous taste.

the EDF shitposters were just the beginning

Type-Moon will always be awkwardly stuck between /a/, /jp/ and Holla Forums, ultimately unwanted by no one.

I dunno how many more times I'm gonna have to say take the mobashit happenings and fuck off, but I guess it'll be a lot.

- Lancelot only appears in f/z
- Lancelot steals/commanders a JSDF plane from a squad set out to intercept the Shoggoth
- Lancelot challenges Gilgamesh to a dogfight while his master gets his shit pushed in by Tokiomi
- Lancelot loses the plane to Gae Dearg
- The plane never happens again ever

Did I lose anyone anywhere, or are we going to start desperately counting the Taiga/Iris gag reels as actual canon, now?

Did you faggots forget this is a Rin thread?

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Medusa is best girl, grandpa.

...

...

That's a funny way to spell useless, user.

...

You're alright

it's a chinese cartoon imageboard

Reminder that Gilgamesh did nothing wrong and the world needs to be purged of mongrels in order to save the earth, humanity and magic.

Too many people on the planet and not enough soul/magic power to go around.

How come this wasn't done before? What was the whole deal with Assassin, anyways.

Read the visual novel, holy fuck.

Get out fucking secondary. Read the visual novel you fucking faggot.

It's cannon whether you like it or not.
You know I didn't say he could just magically conjure something up, he still has to take something and turn it into a Noble Phantasm first.
Because it was destroyed, yes I already established that destroyed Noble Phantasms can't be repaired.

I'm curious as to why she's the only caster that did so. As for Assassin, I meant why he was summoned. Is that what happens when a servant summons a servant, or is that a new development with the grail being corrupted?

Oh yeah, he was summoned and bound to the temple in some way right? In either case, I wonder if it was angra mainyu fucking with things again or just what always happens when servant summons servant. He's the reason 'evil' heroic spirits can be summoned, right?

Caster wanted to win so she broke the rules and tried to summon her servant and she kind of succeeded, sort of. Problem is, in order for servants to exist in the current age, they need a shit ton of mana, and a something to "bind them to this plane" which is usually the Master. However Caster couldn't be a bind because she herself was only binded to this plane by her master, so in order to summon fake assassin she had to bind him to the mountain and make the mountain his bind as well as source of mana. Due to this fake and shoddy summoning, he was unable to leave the area whatsoever, and barely qualified as a proper servant. Theoretically, anyone can do what Caster did, but if you notice Fake Assassin was pretty much useless at all times due to the whole can't move thing.

*continued
Lancelot also canceled the effect of his own Noble Phantasm on the Jet as well, because Gae Dearg nullifies the enhancements of his Noble Phantasm. Gae Dearg is not "minor damage" on magical effects, although a real Noble Phantasm can't be destroyed outright from it it's properties are a good counter to Lancelot.

I've never watched or "played" any Type-Moon stuff
Where do i start?
but after watching UBW, I don't want to do that. Saber a shit and Archer is 2edgy

It's still not canon, so I'm fine and you're a faggot.

Retarded dickweed goes:
>Turning anything into a noble phantasm has many benefits, one of them being that he can summon the jet on command and it will repair itself from minor damage.

Me:

Dickweed again:
>He can and he does, frequently both as a running gag and it basically his shtick now.

Me: >Details on the extent of Berserker's contact with a plane

Your paintchip eating ass:

So are you still confused about your own damn post ID, or do I need to break out the Crayolas and hope you don't eat them in the next explanation?

Wasn't a Noble Phantasm, genius. Temporary Noble Phantasm. Though no, intentinoal or accidental NPs being broken have never been shown being recovered in the very same war. We only have Gil as an example permanently throwing away several items in his vault because he was that assmad that Lancelot had touched them. Lancer's Gae Buidhe would be fully functional on his next summon, on account of him just being a copy fitting in a container for the summoning ceremony. But eh, I might lose you explaining that, so I'll refrain.

I think this is up-to-date. Download Fate stay/night's Realta Nua version and the latest patch from Beast's Lair. Play with H-scenes on or otherwise Sakura's route is a bit neutered. The scenes are pretty shit, but the replacements aren't any better.

So you're saying that saber is best for Shirou?

Kill yourself fam. What did the molluscs ever do to you!

Sure, if you want Shirou to go full Archer.

Weren't all the molluscs in Tsukihime?

Your reading comprehension is very poor. I said he can summon anything he turns into a noble phantasm, your own response tells me you assume I said he summons it on the spot and not fly over there.

Irrelevant, it is more or less a Noble Phantasm so long as Lancelot continues to maintain ownership meaning by feeding it prana it would be repaired over time from minor damage. This isn't a quick process though, it's a long term benefit my only mistake was not clarifying this in my first post.
A new war creates an entirely new vessel including the Noble Phantasm, the original is tucked away safely in the Throne of Heroes. Once that copy Noble Phantasm made during the summoning is destroyed it's pretty much done. So yes, Noble Phantasms cannot be repaired once destroyed.

That joke is so 2016, the current name for him is LITTERALYHITLERICANTEVEN RIGHTNOW!!!!1!!1!1!1!!1!1!!1!!1

Heroic spirits summoned as servants are just copies of themselves, right? The original in the Throne of Heroes is pretty much the same? I recall reading something about that in UBW route, which explains why someone like fourth grail war Lancer would still have his second spear. Do memories carry over from experiences as servants to their Throne of Heroes self? I'm pretty sure Saber was the only one capable of remembering, considering she hasn't died yet. Wouldn't that mean that Archer is going to stay a bitter spiteful entity, regardless of what happened in UBW?

Specifically for that grail war only a copy of the hero is pulled out of the throne of heroes you're correct. Because each servant would be a copy, after every pull they would reset. However I think this discussion is revolving around what happens in Grand Order which is a fuckfest of canon and a mess of a game.

In UBW he actually covers this. Archer knows that at some point he was summoned to be in this war and that himself as Shirou was involved and that Shirou survives. Archer gets pulled from the throne as a copy each time he's summoned like this. If Archer were to just die in a grail war he doesn't escape the throne he just gets copied again somewhere else. However, Archer's plan was to kill Shirou and try to cause a time paradox potent enough that in a move for self-preservation the throne of heroes has to remove him. It's completely possible that won't work, he'll just kill Shirou and the Throne just resolves the paradox. But it was the only gamble he could make.

The threesome with twin maids in Kagetsu Tohya had them too.

The simple and misleading answer is yes, but not really.

The throne records everything that a hero has done so any hero currently inside the throne can read up on what the copies of themselves have been doing running around but it's basically going to the library to read a book about yourself. So while the heroes inside the throne can read up on what their copies are doing, they do not get the memory of the experience because they (the original hero) does not experience what the copy did. Which should be considered almost as a separate individual.

Is this like some kind of updated Fate VN?

If I recall Arturia is the only heroic spirit that does keep her memories but thats because of her being alive still.

Aye, that's what I vaguely remember reading. So, is the Throne of Heroes an actual place or just a concept? Would be neat to see a lounge where heroic spirits hang out.

Correct. Arturia could have become a Heroic spirit on her own however much like Archer right before she died she entered a pact with the Throne to become a counter-guardian but only once she obtained the holy grail. In this scenario, anytime a holy grail is present, Arturia has a high chance of showing up to try and claim it due to the Throne's influence. Because she made this pact right before she died. She is taken from her moment of death, brought to time she is summoned, and if she fails, will return back to the last moment before dying before trying again. Arturia will retain her memories of every summon until she obtains the grail, upon which she will become a counter-guardian, and will get summoned anytime the Throne needs her like any other hero. There's also the possibility that if she breaks the contract with the Throne (i.e. if Saber had the chance to obtain the grail and refuses it) she will immediately die and not resurrect anymore and won't even be a heroic spirit.

The most appropriate word is that it is a "place". But it's location is hard to describe. As normal humans we are bound to a timeline that is linear and this can not be escaped, however, the Throne exists outside of time, and can access any point in history at anytime. (This is why Archer can be summoned from the future even though he isn't a counter-guardian yet in linear time.) We've never had it described more than that and I doubt we ever will as it's just a place to keep useful things until they are needed.

Here's the diagram showing where the Throne "is".

Holla Forums - video games

Hey lorefags who know more than me. Why does Grand Order recognize Vlad from Extra as the Lancer version of Vlad but recognizes Vlad from Apocrypha as a Berserker and only a berserker even though his Apocrypha canon states specifically it's impossible to summon him into the Berserker class? Vlad from Extra is kind of crazy and sort of chill about the whole Dracula thing but Vlad from Apocrypha would die before indulging in that shit.

Heroes die, they have a copy recorded in the Throne of Heroes. These records are also made in the Moon Cell, which also copies shit from the Throne of Heroes; the Throne in turn actually copies shit out of the Moon Cell and records that down. The Throne exists outside of time, and is sort of a "shared" thing in every universe, even though the Moon Cell is not.

Whenever a Servant is summoned, a fragment of the hero is manifested into the Class Container constructed by the Grail. Each Class Container has minimum stats that must usually be met; the "Saber = Strongest" idea comes from the fact that it has the highest base stats. It's also been demonstrated that more "modern" Heroic Spirits can be manifested into the Class Container with its base stats and their skills/NP. In contrast, the most powerful Heroic Spirits, like Gilgamesh and Herakles, are too strong to fit within a single class container.

The Class Container has other limitations as well. For instance, Cu Chulainn qualifies as a Saber, Lancer, Archer, Berserker, Caster, or Rider. Herakles qualifies as Saber, Lancer, Archer, Berserker, Assassin, or Rider. Arturia qualifies as Saber, Lancer, or Rider. Each of these Heroic Spirits gets cut off from certain NPs and skills when in one, or are given new ones when in another. Sometimes, Class Container can really fuck a Heroic Spirit; Julius Caesar, for instance, is an amazing Heroic Spirit when manifested as a Rider, but since he personally considers "Saber" to be a foot-solider class, he becomes the shit-tier Fat Saber when summoned in that class. Beyond skills and abilities, parameters can also be screwed up. The Herakles from life could lift the entire world; the Herakles as a Heroic Spirit is much weaker. When Gilgamesh and Enkidu get into a Gate of Babylon vs. Mud Copies weapon-slinging contest in Strange Fake, despite it looking like an impossible display to the modern humans around them, both comment on the fact that their maximum outputs are a fraction of their actual battles in real life.

When a Heroic Spirit is summoned, upon dying/being returned, a record of the copy is sent to the Throne, which the original can look over. Because the Throne exists out of time, certain vague recollections can also be applied; further, in the case of spirits generated by the Moon Cell, larger portions are recorded over to the copy in the Throne. Thus, if Nursery Rhyme, a product of the Moon Cell Holy Grail, is summoned, her spiritual core would be linked to her form as Alice in Fate/Extra.

Heroic Spirits are separate from Counter Guardians like EMIYA; however, given the right catalyst, it is still possible to summon them. Further, as a result of Moon Cell related bullshit, there is a "Nameless Hero" sort of position in the Throne of Heroes, and EMIYA apparently has "first dibs" of a sort when it comes to that spot. Further, Divine Spirits and certain Heroic Spirits that don't want to manifest physically can assume the form of a pseudo-servant, using a human body which is somehow connected to the Holy Grail War to manifest in that shape, essentially capping their own power to the point of being eligible for fitting a Class Container.

The Grand Servants, which have their own class containers, were the model behind which later systems were designed. Unlike normal Heroic Spirits, they seem to have power either equivalent to in life, or potentially even greater. Each Grand Class Container has specific requirements; the only one directly stated is Grand Caster, which requires EX-Rank Clairvoyance (making the candidates eligible, in order: King Solomon, Merlin, and Gilgamesh). Some of the Grands seem to be able to use Independent Manifestation, as do the Beasts they're meant to fight.

As far as memories go:
Arturia has a record within the Throne of Heroes as a Heroic Spirit from certain timelines, but she was never placed in the Throne like others were. Instead, her "true" self is in Avalon. In certain worlds, Arturia did not die; she made a pact with the world, and was to become a counter guardian in exchange for getting the Holy Grail. This was what allowed her to retain memory between the 4th and 5th Wars.

Servants with strong Clairvoyance, such as Gilgamesh, can "cheat" memory by peering back, if they desire to. In Strange Fake, Gil is prompted to do this to see the events of the 4th/5th War; however, because of the Grail Mud obscuring everything in his vision, he is unable to gain anything out of it. Similarly, in Strange Fake, one of the masters uses Grail Mud to force a summoned Herakles (Archer) to recall the events from the 5th War, giving him aspects of the Avenger class.

It's pretty much never anything else besides feelings, though. In Grand Order, for instance, the Lancer variant of Cu Chulainn has a predisposed dislike towards both EMIYA and Gil, even though he has no memory of the war.

There's also Apoc, and what Jeanne does at the end of it, but Apoc is shit.

All I want is a continuation of "Mind of Steel", I've already given up on Tsukihime.

Almost any Servant can be Berserkered, but only those who suffered a moment of insanity do it well. Rather than say 'impossible' it should say 'worthless' - a Berserker lacks intelligence, decent Phantasms, etc, and only gains in stats, which are of middling to little use in a proper war.
Heracles was notable because his base abilities were already strong enough to practically make him a walking NP all by himself. Lancelot was notable in that he had an impressive NP even while nuts. But each time, said Servant would have been better off sane, and those who had no moment of insanity are basically useless.

There are qualifications to every class, you can't just summon anybody into Berserker. Hercules is known for going completely insane and murdering his wife and children. Vlad the Impaler is misconstrutred to be a homicidal maniac that drinks people's blood, Lancelot went completely insane after King Arthur died. It's in the definition what one has to do to be considered for the Berserker class. "Mad Warrior and Heroic Spirit of Berserk Rage, is one of the Four Cavalry classes among the seven standard Servant classes summoned for the Holy Grail War. Servants placed within this class are always Heroic Spirits who have gone berserk during battle at least once in their lifetime. "

Shirou is best Type Moon.

Gentleman of virtuous taste.

lul no

Note how Rin never says she'll try and stop him from becoming a Hero. Not to Archer, nor in the endings. Hell, Hollow Ataraxia further hammers this point in; Rin won't hinder him, rather will aid him and support him any way she can.

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Archer can remember, because otherwise he wouldn't be so fucking mad and tired as he is in the 5th HGW.

Somewhere iirc it's explained as reading a book, not actually experiencing events in person. So it could be a CG only thing or a side-effect of UBW where his weapons "histories" continually get updated.
+16 innocent
+12 monsters
+141265 innocents
etc.

Archer is a weird case. Hes not just a Heroic spirit he is also a counter guardian. When he is summoned as a Heroic spirit he wouldn't remember that. He does remember his experiences as a counter guardian however. It has to do with how the world uses counter guardians compared to the Throne of heroes using heroic spirits.

Actually, no they can't. Caster was able to do what she did—take a random wraith with a fuck-powerful sword ability, wrap a false heroic skin around it (Sakaki Kojirou), bond it to a heavily-warded magic mountain under which stood one of the four major leyline intersections for that area/region, and do so all the while stockpiling prana from the dozens of near-death attacks she hosted on the city while other Servant/Master teams were wandering about in the dark—because Caster is just that fuck-powerful and adept of a magus. This is a woman who actually concocted several potions that would cheat death. Her magecraft is leaps and bounds above anything even the bluebloods in the Clocktower can pull off.

Mind you, this ploy was done under duress and proved to be an excellent strategy. A master who couldn't replenish her energy, and yet under her hand, her guard dog was able to hold off every single Servant bar the ones Kojirou intentionally let through the doors. Lancer, Rider, Berserker. No small feat.

The only other stated entity that could come close to doing what Medea did was Tamamo no Mae. And she herself wouldn't be able to as she's a full-on deity, thus not summonable by Fuyuki's grail, and also because she's sworn off of all of her higher level witchcraft.

That's cute—you're wrong, and you're ugly just like your mum.

More like your glaring mistake is just not understanding how Knight of Honor actually works.

Except Godhand, but keep on you're on a roll.

Heroic Spirits are "copied" in a sense and then "placed" into one of the seven containers prepared by the designs of the Greater Grail. It's why there's a scene in the VN where Archer likens the entire experience to his true self, tucked away outside of time/space, opening and reading a volume on his life inside a massive shelf of books about his life. He can't recall every detail with pinpoint accuracy and the experiences don't exactly feel like his own at times.

Servants are temporary vessels. The only items that are "real" about them are the items used to summon them. Lancelot's mirror, the swordaxe taken from Heracles' temple, Avalon drugged up from its resting place at Camlann, the world's first snakeskin for Gil, etc etc.

She's hilariously wrong and has been deliberately mislead by Kirei for a decade. While all her studies on magi are sound and factual, a LOT of her knowledge of the Grail War is completely off.

And yes, this means Archer said he learned his lesson at the end of the ubw route, but it's just as likely it'll be a blip in the distance as far as his recollection ability goes. Depends on how much it means to him at a personal level.

Because Grand Order is full of shit. Try to keep up my good user.

No. Only those who actually went bugfuck nuts at some point in their life qualify for the Berserker class. It also remains the only class you can deliberately force, as all the others are a gamble.

Not at all. In the cases you're bringing up, the shortfalls came deliberaltely on the Master's ends. Illya could have cleanswept the whole war, but she let her hatred of Kiritsugu and her own sadism blind her from what she needed to do.

In Kariya's case, the man was a pathetic master, moreso than even Shinji. He had no major plan to win the grail, he had no interests of even beginning to track down the other masters, he had an axe to grind with Tokiomi that blinded him to the possibility that maybe a straight on fight with a decades-practiced magi isn't the smartest of ideas…list actually goes on. On TOP of being manipulated every step of the way.

Berserker is an absolutely fine class. It was just wasted on a moron who couldn't even make a good battery, let alone a goal-oriented war participant, and an emo edgy teenager who could and DID earn the absolute devotion of her Servant and wasted it doing fuck-all until she was outmaneuvered in almost all scenarios.

Berserker is an OP class, properly utilized. The masters just suck.

Drown in your ideals and die, faker.

g8 f8 m8 i r8 8/8

I find this hard to believe. Excalibur blasts fucked Heracles up right proper, and even Shirou managed to own him up good. God forbid Gilgamesh steps in.

Everyone else would be easy pickings though.

Then you need to go back to the VN. Reminder that all the bad ends are canon.
Reminder that Illya has the HIGHEST kill count for Shirou of all the other women that get him killed, including Sakura.

Point is, she had a fuck-powerful Servant that was insanely dangerous even without his primary NP, plus two extremely capable maidservants, terrain advantage, actual intricate knowledge of how the Grail War was SUPPOSED to work, and a supply of prana thick enough that powering Berserker was never an issue.

There's also the fact that Nasu's stated repeatedly that it's not a powerlevel game, and the 5 War was one where ANY particular Servant could have rose victorious over all the others.

More cuckings from white korra.

Gil even mentions that if heracles wasn't defending illya during their fight he would have been able to give gil a proper fight and stood a chance of beating him

That's why I was asking. I knew it was something peculiar with Medea and her advanced magic.

As oppose to… what, exactly?

Why did you do this?

Vlad (Extra) and Vlad (Apocrypha) are both the same Heroic Spirit, but from different points in his personal timeline. The Vlad from Apoc is the younger one who was still a lot more idealistic, whereas the one in Extra is older and completely batshit insane.

First off, regarding F/GO: when the Protagonist summons Heroic Spirits using Chaldea, rather than a normal catalyst. Which generally means summoning ones encountered over the course of the story, either as allies or as enemies. Though it's a little bit more complicated than that, since gameplay and story are different; while you can bring anyone to anything in-game, Shielder (Mashu) is one of the only confirmed Servants that the protagonist actually has in the story, along with a few others noted in events to have been picked up along the way; most of them leave after the first story arc, leaving behind only a small group.

So why is Apoc Vlad a Berserker? He qualifies for the class. He was summoned in a Berserk state as an enemy to be dealt with in New Orleans along with Carmilla (Elizabeth Bathory). Both were manifested as "vampires" intentionally, partially because a non-Berserk Vlad wouldn't have sided with Jeanne Alter so easily, partially because his Lancer form is weak outside of Romania. The protagonist summons him as a Berserker, because that was how he was encountered. He doesn't like it, either, since he's aware of his state. On the other hand, Extra Vlad, being more true to the "popular" perspective of Vlad, is a large enough threat even as a Lancer, and is encountered in that state in the story, along with normal, non-vampire Liz.

Medea has one of the best talents for item creation out of any Caster, but the story itself makes a strong point of the fact that she is not a combat magus, and was hindering herself by trying to take on that role as an "evil witch" rather than sticking to her own strengths. She's a great artificer and healer, making her a better support healer than any of the author Casters could ever hope to be. But in terms of one-on-one combat, she's greatly outclassed by a lot of other Caster candidates - Solomon has her beat in every category, Merlin has an advantage in everything except possibly item creation, Cu is a highly efficient killer with every advantage in magical combat, and old man Gilgamesh as a Caster is just as broken as ever.

Her absolute best case scenario is something like at the end of Hollow, when she was able to freely unleash hell on a large force of enemies without magic resistance. She's pretty much guaranteed to lose in single combat against another Heroic Spirit, and she was smart enough to know that herself. That's why stealing Saber was such a high priority.

Berserker is generally shit-tier because it more often than not puts more handicaps into play than anything else. The properties of Mad Enhancement are stated - it increases physical parameters at the cost of sanity, and generally comes with a greatly increased mana cost. It's not a Karna-tier mana sink, but no normal human would have been able to do what Illya did. The moment Lancelot drew Arondight, Kariya went from normal fucked to out of the game entirely.

Zouken made Kariya use it because he wanted him to suffer - Lancelot is generally better as a Saber, and the only Servant in the 4th War that his being a Berserker gave him an advantage against was Gilgamesh, who still had the advantage either way.

The Einzberns had Illya summoned Herk as a Berserker for two reason: so he wouldn't betray them, and so he wouldn't kill them all and run off in the woods with Illya. Which, with his alignment and love for children, is exactly what he would have done as an Archer. Berserker was his absolute worst class, and Illya was by no means mentally prepared to do what it took to win the War. As an Archer powered by Illya going up against Gilgamesh powered by Kirei, it's unlikely he could have lost without Gil resorting to both Ea and his Golden Armor (and going by Strange Fake, his normal arrows alone have enough force to damage the latter). Having the insane mana output from Illya was the only thing that made him as big of a threat as he was in F/SN; Lancer, Saber, and Gilgamesh all could beat him, and even Archer could feasibly do so given his ideal terrain (and even in the worst possible scenario - beginning in close quarters, rather than sniping him with a dozen different explosive NPs from five miles away - he was able to shave off half of his lives).

On the other hand, Lu Bu might be handicapped as a Berserker, but his inability to be controlled means the he will literally kill his own master unless Berserk. Jack the Ripper is best summoned as a Berserker because of the "madness * madness = sanity" rule his summons follows. And certain Servants with low levels of made enhancement, like Beowulf, are natural fits for the class.

Can I just say that the autism in this thread is my favorite kind of autism? These paragraph long explanations and breakdown of a chinese cartoon. Have no idea why but is always makes a good read.
Keep up the good work.

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This board does not need Fate threads. Keep that crap on /a/.

You're arguing a statement I never made. I said nothing about her being a superior combat mage. I stated she was a superior magus, through and through. And that point actually cannot be argued. In ability, potential, wealth of knowledge, she's ages ahead of every single modern day magi. If we talk pure combat potential, there are still very, very few actually IN magic combat that can touch her, given she has a preference of stabbing in the back as opposed to in the face. The closest you're going to get to her leage is Roa at his peak, before he was first murdered by Arcueid. Her strengths were made painfully obvious in how she erected a frontal assault guard that effectively turned away every Servant in the war.

This part is speculation on my end, but canon favors the process. Had Archer not been dealing with a gambit to alienate and then kill Shirou, Caster would have won the war. She was the only other Servant aside of True Assassin and Gilgamesh who was playing the game the proper way.

I'd say I'm not sure where you're getting this healing/support bullshit from, but I'm positive you're just still sucking on Grand Order's teat. That shit's diseased and you should cut it out.

I wouldn't wish the 4am faggots on that dystopian shithole.

We're the ones who need a nuke or two.

Shit tier for mediocre masters. You would think, knowing F/Z and FSN and even just a slight bit of the heavily-sterilized Fate/Extra, you could discern how to turn negatives to positives on a strategy map.Fate Zero alone made gross advantages to this.

On the one hand, you had people like Waver, Ryuunosuke, and Kairya who put in very little serious planning into how they would move and utilize their Servants to win. They played the game a great deal like Shirou, Rin, Shinji, and Bazette in a sense—little research, little actual espionage, very few proactive movements.

Then there were the ones that put in a little bit more effort. To save himself the drain on resources, Kayneth disciphered the Matou Command Seals and separated the actual payload between two magi in order to maintain proper combat readiness on his own and absolute command of his Servant. Tokiomi outright coerced the most advantageous card in the deck, Kirei and his Assassin, into spying on EVERYONE and basically played it safe with intent to move only when the numbers thinned. Kirei did just that and had a defacto Servant to help him slide knifves into everyone's backs…on top of that, he had a bored Archer who intended to make the whole fight dance to his tune.

And then there was Kiritsugu, who arguably had the strongest all-around card, and instead of going full frontal, used her like a bait to seek out, study, and assassinate every Master he came across, direct conflict not being in his cards at the very least.

In short, people who do their homework learn how to make "shit tier" into "top tier". Git gud. Berserker is not a shit class. NONE of the seven are shit classes.

Teachings of Circe (キルケーの教え, Kirukē no Oshie?) is a Skill that represents the time where princess Medea learned magecraft in the temple of the moon goddess Hecate, along with another senior apprentice, the witch Circe. It was Circe who was the real prodigy at magecraft, but she also had a pretty problematic personality.[54]

The fuck you smoking? The Berserker is a shit class and it was designed as such; all the classes beyond the Knights Three were supposed to be unreliable. Hell, in the 3rd War no Berserker was summoned and the fucking thing is such an energy hog that it drains any regular magi dry in the first fight.
Yeah, because having your Servant chafing at the bit while you play at spies is such a good strategy. Fuck, just summon an anti-hero if you want to play at ploys, but don't whine when the Heroes who are used to dealing with that shit just smash it all to bits.

Wait, what happened during the second grail war?

Thought everyone until the Greater Grail ran out of juice to keep the ritual running and everyone was un-summoned.

Too much exposition is its only big fault. It's got the most interesting version of Shirou and wraps itself up neatly in a bittersweet love story. HF and UBW are awesome, but they're mostly accessories to Fate.

Nigga get thee hence.

Nigga they weren't even designed to FIGHT. They were all heavyweight souls poured into temporary vessels with the intent to be sacrificed to open a door to the Origin. Except participants in the ceremony got greedy and shit went south, twice. Then the founders (Makiri, Tohsaka, Einzbern) had the bright idea to dupe both Servants AND new participant (Masters) with the hope of fame and a wish in order to control the conflict. Except that went south for three MORE ceremonies. None of this to start with was about fighting. That's why powerlevels are bullshit.

More to the point, prep time is important. The pace of FSN is set by Kirei, who's had ten years to prepare for its return and actually took out the most immediate real threat to his plans, Bazette (I lie, he actually just killed her for the lulz). Likewise, Zouken had 10 years to prepare and was thinking hardcore long-term—all Sakura was orignally there to do was pump out an adequate master for the SIXTH war, but shit changed at the end of the 4th. At no point did he have hope in Kariya turning over shit—which was an accurate call, as I again point out faggot had no plan, no strategies, no forethought, no reasoning in his movements, and a bad case of worms.

Give someone with prep and understanding of how a Servant works and they'll work fucking miracles. See also how Assassin in the 5th war brutalizes Caster and Kojirou AND Lancer, sneaks up inside the Emiya compound on several occassions, and scores almost all the winning kills where it counted. Assassin. As in the weakest fighter aside of the Caster class.

It goes back to git lucky or git gud. In Shirou's case, he got lucky. Kiritsugu got good. Berserker isn't shit, it's just too hard for faggots to control without upping their game. That's all there is to it.

Tell us more, faggot. :^)

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It's like you never read Unlimited Blade Works in detail or some shit. The ones with brains & foresight is going to be favored.

Fuck no.

I shouldn't be genuinely angry, but I am.

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You mean her second choice. She was obviously super into Lancelot, which is part of what made everything in her life go to shit.

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More Gaston, please.

Considering it's Shirou that Saber was waiting for in Avalon (the updated version doesn't change this part, only that instead of being tragic it turns out okay), Shirou went for it and got the girl Lancelot didn't. Although some here hate FGO, she's still fucking blushing around Archer when he doesn't have a huge stick up his ass. Shirou is also a huge influence on her choice of clothing when not in Knight or Queen mode.

I guess being in an eternally recurring loop on the brink of death helps.

Shipping shit

Worse than the secondaries.

Gilgamesh and Tokiomi. Worked out real nice, didn't it. Prep time is shit, muh tactically operating is shit. The most important thing is compatibility.

And Hassan can't even take out a half-dead kung fu priest. His every kill was a case of circumstance where everything aligned just right because the entire war got thrown out the window. Against even a half-decent fighter he can't do shit.

Berserker is shit, it has no self-restraint, burns through magic in one fight and is literally the very brute force straightforward fighter you profess to argue against. Herakles and Lancelot both are better as any of their other fucking classes, even as they're presented as the exceptions that prove the rule.

You are strawmanning so fucking hard right now. Did I ever, at any point, mention honor or pride? Moreover, PRIDE fucked over Tokiomi and both of your faggots are of the Archer class which is one of the top three classes. You're a fucking moron, proving my point for me.

You're dumb as fuck. Go read Garden of Avalon, especially the part where Lancelot is horrified and disgusted at what a monstrously just king Artoria is.

There's actually something I don't quite get.

Since Saber finally bites it at the end of Fate, does she go on to be a true guardian hero? Is she still stuck to the cycle?

She fucks off to Avalon and never joins the Throne of heroes. This is where she waits forever for Shirou. but the original implied she got the sweet embrace of death instead and didn't go either place

Just to illustrate my point about compatibility:

etc. etc.

Realta Nua version is that she goes to Avalon and awaits Shirou. The original has her accepting her fate and going to the Throne of Heroes. With the implication that otherwise she fulfills her wish and a male Arthur is chosen instead, dooming her to eternal servitude for Alaya as a cleaner.

I've got news for you friend - Grand Order is literally more canon at the current moment than Fate/Zero is.

It's literally her fucking myth: Medea is a magus who specializes in non-combat techniques. Her most stellar skills are Item Construction and Territory Creation. All of her great feats regarded healing and restoration, like the cauldron able to bring life back to a dead sheep. In that regard, she is easily one of the best in all of Fate. But against Heroic Spirits, she is horribly disadvantaged, and literally her only shot at winning was Shirou being so absolutely shit she could steal his Servant.

I want to say that they go over this in Hollow, but since I was a dumbass and left my save file on a hard drive I wiped, I can't find any of her scenes.

Do you even know what secondary means? It's there in your fucking image - someone who didn't read the VN. If you're intentionally refusing to accept shit that has been released after, that doesn't make you less of a secondary, it makes you more of a dipshit.

There are infinite worlds, and in some of them, Saber moved on to the Throne of Heroes. The Saber from Fate/Stay Night that Shirou fell in love with moved on to Avalon instead.

Assassins aren't really supposed to be able to engage in direct combat. King Hassan is pretty much one of the only ones able to go toe-to-toe with the Knights in a fair fight. The rest rely almost entirely on circumstance - Cursed Arm Hassan requires the opponent to stand still and have a low enough MAG, Jack the Ripper requires a female opponent on a misty night, etc. They specialize in killing Masters. Which Cursed Arm was very good at. The only reason he beat Kirei is because the priest knew exactly what he was going to do, and was immune to his trump card.

That aside, you're on point about compatability. A Master and Servant that are unable to get along have essentially no chance of defeating others. Of course, that doesn't guarantee them the win either - Illya-Berserker and Waver-Rider were the most compatible pairings, but they still lost; Bazzet-Lancer were great as well, but they never even got a chance to fight together. And while Kirei-Gil were pretty much the best pair you could hope for, the Gil that stepped out of the Grail Mud was such a top-tier retard that he was a designated jobber from the start.

Fate/Extra makes the best point of it with Hakuno/Servant - get along well with your own Servant, and learn everything you can about your enemy. Do that, and you can come out on top. Of course, none of the three Servants in Extra are exactly shit-tier either - in the context of the Moon Cell, it's pretty much a guarantee that certain Servants would equate to being fucked.

To be fair on two points here:

Kayneth wasn't fucked by Lancer, he was fucked by Kerry/Saber. Nasu has stated in interviews that Kayneth had a very easy way to win the war: make sure Lancer never makes contact with Saber, make an alliance with the master of Berserker to tag-team Gil and the others, take down Berserker as the last man standing. Instead, the very first thing Kayneth did was send Lancer against Saber, which switched his mindset from "do my job and kill things" to "muh knights honor". Then there was they fact that he was in the same Grail War as both Kerry and Kirei, the two absolute worst people for a magus of any power-level to be engaged in combat against.

And as far as Dan Blackmore goes, the after-combat dialogue makes it fairly clear that Robin Hood and Dan were highly compatible - and that was the problem. The two of them were both guerilla warfare experts, who both wanted a chance at being someone more honorable, even if only once. While both wished they could have won, and had conflicts along the way, they were glad to go out the way they did. Of course, that's not saying too much, seeing as pretty much every pairing in Extra was highly compatible. Especially Alice/Nursery Rhyme.

I was referring in a more encompassing type of compatibility, beyond the bare bones. By this definition, I also included those two examples despite your good points.

Kayneth and Deermud would have had trouble regardless of Saber, as the whole thing would still play out as Deermud's life had. Sola Ui was a ho, so whether or not they could have won without Saber is in my opinion entirely up in the air. For example, before the hotel gets blown up, Sola Ui starts questioning Kayneth's choices, undermining him while siding with Deermud. This had immense potential to snowball, as we did see it happen when she steals the command seals the first chance she gets.

Dan and Robin—as you said—were too compatible but that led to a degeneration due to other circumstances. Regardless of their potential, it still limited both of them.

I'd also like to add Kerry as an example, in that he won despite Saber, really. His choice of shunting off Saber on Irisviel was essentially a masterstroke on multiple levels.

It actually did until Gil's ego proved to be insatiable. But that's not the point. Point is, Tokiomi's strategy wasn't shit. Gil's ego put that to ruin. Kayneth's strategy & preparation wasn't off, either, but his matchup was terrible—paired against a coldblooded killer with no qualms in method of attack, he couldn't help but lose.

Let me make the clearest example I possibly can about this shit. Fate/Extra is the champion of this theory because meta and narrative point in the same direction. Given the time (a week), the resources (the cell dungeons and augmentation of souls via that Dirty Red), and knowledge (free fucking reign of a library with ''every single goddamned Servant actually located on the Moon Cell", your main character and their Servant weather battles they have no fucking rights to, with only two or three instances boiling down to sheer luck saving your ass. Resources at fingertips to know, understand, and weaken enemies, you (Hakuno) end up as the king of the hill of corpses.

The same thing applies toward the other aspects of canon. At any given time, the major fuckups happen either due to blatant ego-tripping (Shinji, Gil, Saber—fuck, basically everyone but Shirou), or because the planning doesn't take place at all.

You want to hold Tokiomi as an example but I can turn that right the fuck around and ask what Kariya's plan was. Save Sakura? How. Charge headlong into a battle royale twice, being ineffective and burning unnecessary prana both times. Falling susceptible to Kirei's words and end up choking out your ultimate goal.

I can take it to a more neutral setup, too. Waver came to show off his dick size but was almost entirely unprepared for the War. Iskander wasted time, wasted energy, tipped his hand, and ended up getting his shit pushed in at the very end. All of which Waver could've done something about if he wasn't such a spineless shit out to prove his farts didn't stink (spoiler, they did). His Servant RAILROADED him.

Ultimately, the things that are the critical shortcoming are all human error, not class error. Berserker calls for greater resources and each time, the Masters prooved inadequate to take on the load or utilize the power. And when one finally had the ability to do both in spades, they lost themselves to a shitty family feud when a more proactive approach would have absolutely leveled the playing field for them.

Still stands. Berserker a good class. Masters a shit.

Holy shit phone the neighbors we have a live one.

Mediocrity fucked him over more than pride. But. Semantics.

Gilgamesh is a fucking anomaly and Emiya is a black sheep—not typical of what's expected of the Archer class by Nasu's own admission. He's also gone on record to state, since I have to repeat myself, all the Servants were very capable of "winning" the 4th and 5th wars. Only one choking on this cock of retardation is you. None of the classes are trash.

Fuck off.

Original ending (VN) - She dies and becomes an hero

Realta Nua rewrite - She fucks off to Avalon to prance about in a frilly dress until Shirou comes to give her the jackhammer because Takeuchi's feels or someshit.

Yeah, it's a PC port of the PS2 version. Main features are:
Some of these were backported into the original VN in the fanpatch before the team moved on to the updated version. RN fanpatch has:

Retards actually believe this.

You know what is creative and no one tried before? Instead of making a historical character a woman…make it a piece of shit. Literal piece of shit.

The deeper into it you go, the stupider it becomes.

You're not missing much.

Nah, it was pure shit. Every half-decent strategist knows that you cannot plan simply based on your oppositions disposition, but your own forces' as well. "He who knows himself and his enemy" and all that Son Zoo stuff.

Really, nigger?

You lost me.

Worst fucking class of all time. Literally unable to wipe its own ass without killing the master in magical exhaustion. The only way to make it half decent is to hook it up to a Master that has effectively inexhaustible energy reserves, like Illya. AND STILL, Herakles would be stronger as any other fucking class. Hell in FGO, Berserker loses most of his power because the PC is unable to support him. G fucking G.

Let's recap. Kuzuki? Fluke caused by Zouken killing a goddamn Servant by himself. Lancer, Saber and Berserker? Shadow did all the goddamn work. Shirou? Fucker has no goddamn Servant and Kotomine could circumvent the bounded field with ease.

Hassan was about as good as a vaguely threatening scarecrow.

Pathetic.

Get your shit together.

Saber is a jobber. The witch is best girl and pure evil.

Satanic trips confirm Saber is a shit

Original ending (VN) - She dies and becomes an hero

Realta Nua rewrite - She fucks off to Avalon to prance about in a frilly dress until Shirou comes to give her the jackhammer because Takeuchi's feels or someshit.>>12526926

Your statement relies on the factor that Tokiomi know Kirei is crooked or at least bent toward being crooked. Knowledge he woudl have had to have by being in the same room as the man when he was watching his wife die. Need I remind aside from his semi-morose standard face, Kirei is a high level poker player with insane charisma who was able to beguile and murder not just Tokiomi, but also an Enforcer for the Clock Tower who tended not to trust anyone.

Now let's actually analyze Tokiomi's plan:

- Enlist the church for extra aide (Kirei) despite them already being in their back pocket (Risei)
- Put on an "act" once the strengths & abilities of Assassin were known (extra point: the Hassan that 'died' did not even know he was being set up.
- Use said ruse and remaining Assassins to spy on everyone for absolutely free (this includes a segment of Fate/Zero that hit the cutting room floor involving a child Hassan that ended up in Waver's hands with lost memory thanks to the drawback of the Noble Phantasm Hundred Face Hassan employed)
- Pick off the stronger ones but stay out the conflict til the numbers thined (A strategy even Gilgamesh was going to employ, as he said so in the first battle royale)
- Have Archer mow the stragglers down, have Assassin sacrifice itself, profit

The ONLY factor Tokiomi couldn't account for was Kiritsugu, who operated outside the scope of everyone's notice save Kirei's. And Kirei's being wooed by Gil. That's it. Solid plan, otherwise.

In short, you're relying on audience-privy info on Kirei to reinforce your statement. Beguiled Rin ten years running, beguiled Bazette, beguiled his own father. All without getting caught. That double-face undid Tokiomi's plan. Tokiomi didn't undo Tokiomi's plan.

You lost me.
Of course I did. Shirou wore his actions on his sleeve and didn't actively work with deceit on any level until Heaven's Feel when he was hiding just how fucked his head was from Rin. Every argument about grail war tactics he got into, he lost or conceded, but still took a straight-on approach regardless and more often than not lucked out. He didn't have tactics as much as counters to the various incidents transpiring. We don't even have to think about "if his opponents were serious", because the game actively displays 40 times Shirou got fucked over.

Is yours to deal with and doesn't actually make this fact.
And yet Illya managed just fine. For an entire year BEFORE the War kicked off. And that wasn't her natural state of being. That was after Acht took a hatchet and soldering iron to her body and circuits to "prepare" her to enforce her will entirely on a Servant so their ego wouldn't disrupt the Einzbern plan.

In F/GO you play a faggot face-swap milquetoast who isn't remarkable in any regard because by de-fucking-fault Japan lives and breathes mediocre mediums to live vicariously through. Same deal with Hakuno. Shirou & Shiki and Ryougi are the exception.

Note those three exceptions have actual meaty and genuine STORIES backing them, as opposed to your mobileshit which is written at the pace of "justify x for y purchases".

He was doomed from the word "go". Zouken let him have his moment for the lulz and because it didn't eat into his resources nor his plans. Hilarious part is even without Kariya's presence, the only grand thing that would've changed is that Rin would be dead. Even the whole Black Grail Sakura bit would be the same.
Also good job overlooking the fucking worms were doing him in long before he got a hold of Berserker.

Zouken decides to initiate his plan. All hell breaks loose and he sips tea. Problem, faggot?

Kirei knocked on the front door and shanked an only-just-suspicious Tohsaka. He never tried to circumvent Kiritsugu's ward. Meanwhile, Assassin and Caster came and went whenever they fucking pleased.

Diarmuid's death, Iskander's entire campaign, Saber's blind fumbling and eventual ejection from War 4, that one part where Lancer could've easily murdered Kiritsugu thanks in large part to Saber's pride. Caster not suspecting Archer more, Gilgamesh's fucking EVERYTHING from War 4 to War 5 (lol not equipping armor against a sword counter-spamming faggot), Kojirou not killing Saber or Archer at first encounter, Rider not being cautious about Kuzuki when confronted in the school, Illya thinking a cornered rat isn't dangerous (Archer is the ONLY reason Saber & Shirou were able to beat Berserker in the forest as his God Hand hadn't fully regenerated its stocks)…I think that's enough of a start.

- Gilgamesh could've steamrolled most (not all) of his opponents and instead chose to twiddle his thumbs and get Kirei drunk till late game. His entire plan was actually THE SAME as Tokiomi's save that his wine was better than Tokiomi's circling around Kirei. And then when time comes to act in war 5, he fucks off and lets Kirei do what he wants, only gets one good fight in vs Lancer, and never manages to check his ego in time before he's cut in half, headshotted, and shoggoth'd by Black Sakura's shadow.

Archer openly displayed the know-how and ability to win from the fucking start, regardless of class, because he's a goddamned ringer who's been through it and remembers it more vividly than any other Servant save Arturia. Instead, he sits back and only waits for opportunities to initiate suicide via pime taradox, save for the one time he tries to preemptively counter guardian and loses an arm in the process.

You're still a faggot. :^)

This sounds nice, i will give Realta Nua a try after i finish watching Fate Zero.

Nope. The problem was Gil. Tokiomi's extent of understanding Gil is limited to "grovel and then use command seals if I think I know better". Do you think it's a coincidence that Gil went to Kotomine's basement to drink wine after Tokiomi used his command seal? Tokiomi's utter ineptitude when it comes to understanding Gil shows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that compatibility is king when it comes HGWs.

Deceit does not equate a winning tactic. You would do well to read The Anti-Prince on this and remember Shirou's goal in the war. Why would he use deceit and treachery when all it will do is align everyone against him when he cannot and will not kill them to take them out of the game.

Absolute bull. Saber wants to attack the mountain at night, Shirou knows better. Saber wants to use Excalibur on Berserker, Shirou knows better. Last victory in Fate is only due to Shirou understanding the gulf between the abilities of the remaining Servants. Hell, listening to Rin is pretty much a direct route to a bad ending in the game itself. Shirou, Archer aside, is the best tactician in FSN. No one else displays that level of on-the-fly adaptivity and understanding.

You can argue about bad ends, but most of those occur specifically because Shirou takes an un-Shirou-like action. Running away when he should advance, cowering when he should stand. Hesitation and self-contradiction are death to a man of ideals.

Many Worlds Theorem. Just as there are dozens of bad ends, there are thousands of good ends and trillions of irrelevant ends. If people always, all the time against everyone, fought 100% seriously then our world would look very much different and entire books on stratagems relating to mindgames would not be written. It's a meaningless argument that denies the very characters in-discussion and reeks of juvenile powerlevel arguments.

And Illya has effectively infinite magical energy. You know, being a lesser grail and all on top of being a fucking homunculus specialized in magic. Your example is so terrible that you don't even realize you just blew your leg off.

Cry some more why don't you. Mechanically it's all still true. Herakles as a Berserker is worthless for the anyone without inexhaustible energy reserves.

They're the very reason what I stated is happening, how is that overlooking? Increased usage of magical energy leads to agitation of the worms which leads to pain and shortening of life. This is so basic that there was no point in explaining it, so your point makes no sense. And the fact that it was inevitable diminishes nothing from my point about his choice being the absolute worst.

Ergo, Hassan was completely meaningless in those parts.

No, see…. Fuck. You don't even into greentext, do you? That was representing my response to your statement. You said "muh pride" and I then said how pride was an important factor, referring to Gil as an example. I'm not the one saying pride doesn't affect anything. You've only given me more examples now, further destroying your strawman argument about "muh pride". Fuck, it's like you respond to each paragraph without putting any thought into the whole of your argument.

Has EX rank foresight and can see the fucking future. He, more than anyone fucking else short of Merlin and the like, defines the ability for foresight. The fact that he's become arrogant and lazy due to it, is somewhat tangent.

The fucker barely remembers Rin, he doesn't have any real advantage in the HGW.

And your arguments are still an incoherent, self-contradictory mess. Berserker still a shit.

Please do not watch Fate/Zero until reading the VN.

Rin was a little girl, and she still knew he was a scumbag. She just didn't realize he was a scumbag and killed her father. He didn't so much keep it hidden as he did wait until the right moment to say anything, either.

He never tried to deceive Bazzet either, she simply came to the conclusion he was a person she could trust and look up to, because she was a major social autist who makes even Shirou seem well adjusted. At the most, you could say he himself was aware of the fact, on account of being one of the marginally least autistic characters in the series.

He was never trying to deceive his father either - he was trying to deceive himself by doing what was "right" even if it meant no pleasure. In a lot of ways, his father dying (at least according to the F/Z interpretation of the story - the original /SN variant makes it out to being when his wife died) was the straw that broke the camels back, far more than anything Gilgamesh said or did.

Your autism knows no bounds. Nasu wrote down the original concept behind Grand Order while he was writing the Shirou/Archer fight in F/SN, but never had the means to pursue it, since a project on the scale of F/GO was too far beyond the limits of what the urban fantasy genre of Fate would support - the same reason we never see shit like Crimson Moon vs Zelretch outside of anecdotes.

The playable character of Grand Order is not the main character - just a window for the viewers. The actual protagonists of the first arc - the ones who undergo development - are Mashu and Roman, along with the main helpers in each of the chapters.

If you want to go further back, the main premise of Grand Order - the Beasts - was something present in the original Old Fate drafts - the shit he wrote before he ever even did Notes. Like the above, it was something he never had the chance to pursue. There's also the original Apocrypha project, something else which was passed down.

It's literally a mobile game attached to an expansion on the VN. And that's disregarding the character materials, which have vastly expanded upon the abilities of Servants and given additional detail to skills and NPs - nearly all of which is segregated from the game itself outside of the written portions, but is fully true in lore.

Piggbacking on this - Hollow Ataraxia makes it clear that there are countless ways for the Fifth War to end, and there is at least one scenario where every one of the Masters and Servants present in it managed to survive until the very end. The vast majority of them end with Shirou as the victor, though one means or another. The only thing that occurs in none of them is Kirei surviving the events of the War.

It's more that he actively chooses to ignore anything that he sees and doesn't like. He can literally see all of his deaths, and calls bullshit on it every time. Because, truth be told, nearly all of his deaths must come across to him as bullshit. A girl he's trying to fuck, some random ginger, that thing he already survived ten years ago? Hardly threatening. Until they were.