Conflicted right-winger lolbertarian here

conflicted right-winger lolbertarian here

getting more interested in marxist critique of capitalism, and finally discovered the truth of the free trade meme.

I just cant stand leftists and socialists irl, they seem so smug and condescending. Also mass immigration was one of the things in which I departed from libertarianism, but socialists seem to love it just as much which seems in contradiction.

Other urls found in this thread:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=AsTk_bfMrR0
docs.google.com/file/d/0B5ZZjbLXsoLKNHptWHozQm9GWms/edit
youtube.com/watch?v=a1WUKahMm1s
inthesetimes.com/article/18385/slavoj-zizek-european-refugee-crisis-and-global-capitalism
youtube.com/watch?v=1yXOJjTzvS4&t=1693s
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Google Murray Bookchin

Don't listen to this guy

He's a Zionist shill who frequents this board.

I would recommend reading more of Marx and maybe researching serious communist groups - most of the ones that seem obnoxious are confused university students and the like.

Read theory and come to your own conclusions, if you really want to discuss/debate what you read and can't find any tolerable socialist, just come here.

I have a slow af internet connection, but I've got a pdf uploading in another tab you'll probably be interested in.

Do you mean leftists or liberals?

They're probably SJWs or college liberals masquerading as "leftists"

Either way, we hate them too. Look up Richard Wolff.

I'll drop you a link of him here

m.youtube.com/watch?v=AsTk_bfMrR0

will do

Yeah that would be great

people identifying as socialists and or leftists. quite weird how they love mass immigration although that affects American workers negatively and American workers do not want it.

thanks, I'ill watch him.

Do you have any questions we could try and answer?

Well no fucking shit. We're against mass immigration too. Foreign aid would be our solution.

There's more than one person posting with a YPG flair u know

Since when are socialists against mass immigration?

right now im just trying to understand marxist critiques, I dont buy le revolution bullshit and the apologetics for certain societies, just trying to learn or understand various leftist thinkers.


I have never met a leftist or socialist against mass immigration. In fact, they seem to totally disregard culture in any discussion.

Explain yourself

Read Proudhon

You see, internationalism to me is just bullshit utopianism to me that is historically and sociologically retarded. I just want to understand the very real problems people have with capitalism.

Read Bordiga

...

I don't think you actually understand what internationalism is.

Read reform or revolution by Rosa Luxemburg
Just ignore the Tankies. No socialist takes them seriously.
Which ones? If you need recommendations I'd suggest Kropotkin and Marx. The ABC's of Socialism by Jacobin Mag. is really good too.

socialists are not anti-immigration jesus christ senpais

reddit was right

HAHAHAHHA
American anarcho-babbie college student: The Post

So you think people are more connected by nationality than class? Do you think solidarity with leftists of other nationalities is pointless? Do you think a socialist country could even exist without degenerating in one country?

>I just cant stand "leftists" and "socialists" irl, they seem so smug and condescending.
FTFY. Most people who like to talk about leftism IRL are larping liberals who want that extra kick of feelgood hormones and standard liberalism just isn't enough any more. That or literal FBI agents trying to make us look bad.

Mass immigration is in complete contradiction with social democrat (Sweden) policies. It's also counterproductive when it comes to protecting the interests of workers before we have a revolution. Mass immigration will impoverish the working class (which if you're an accelerationist is what you want) while also increasing ecological damage since first-world countries produce more pollution per person.

Exhibit A: Tankie Trash

Here's a link to the book: docs.google.com/file/d/0B5ZZjbLXsoLKNHptWHozQm9GWms/edit
It's Marx for Beginner's by Rius

Mass Immigration is something Liberals push for and do not fall for the meme that Liberal is left, they are Centrist that play devils advocate and disrupts any progress made against Capitalism.

seems like you're upset.

Here's the thing, it's really obvious the type of person you are, because "tankies" form the majority of the socialist movement pretty much everywhere apart from America. Which of course has NOTHING to do with your lifelong indoctrination.

Yes, people are way more connected with nationality and ethnicity then class. I think culture is also very important. leftists, especially ones I know, almost throw culture out the window and usually reap the consequences of looking retarded when discussing history.


It seems leftists are so ideologically divided into their own little meme ideologies that they could never formulate anything in which to govern a society by.

You're not far off, but generally mass immigration is seen as bad. I put in the caveat for accelerationism but that point applies to pretty much any leftist policy; accelerationism amounts to "make things worse so capitalism will collapse faster."

Out of curiosity why are you tankies more correct than us anarchists. Do you really think the Soviet Union was even remotely close to a workers state? Why defend Stalin?

Nationality and culture have played an important role in history, sure, but they are impositions. Nationality doesn't grow out of the working class, it is forced upon them by their rulers to channel their anger.

Everyone recognises that it's a thing, we just question it's necessity.

Same with religion, communists are against religion. Not in a fedora sort of way, and most take a tolerant view - but also recognise that it is not compatible with communist society.

This

Yeah and capital loyalists form the majority of pretty much everywhere. What's that got to do with being right?

Who would win in a fight: Read Bordiga or Google Murray Bookchin?

Check out these RDW lectures

youtube.com/watch?v=a1WUKahMm1s

When you have those that actually read the books, those that pretend they know what they are talking about, those that just follow the memes and those that just want free shit, division can happen.


I haven't seen Bordiga get meme recently, did the guy get tired?

The Read Zizek

Everyone else did and told him to fuck off. Some people actually went and read Bordiga and came back with criticism he couldn't answer to IIRC.

Yes. Absolutely laughable the idea that the state didn't act in the interests of the people. Full employment, housing for everyone, free healthcare and education - a desire to uplift workers is obvious in every facet of the country.

The same reason that so many people in the former USSR, where Stalin was actually in power, defend him, because the lives of people improved immeasurably under his government. You hate him because the United States of America has told you to.

Bookchin because his ideas can creep like a fungus from city to city within your state and before you know it you live in an anarchist utopia.

Google MurraynBookchin because leftcoms would not even attend the event

Socialists don't love mass immigration. Mass immigration as we see it today is a result of capitalist adventures. Socialists acknowledge this, and also acknowledge that masses of people don't come to Europe because they fucking looove Europe so much, but because their own areas experience the ass end of capitalism.

However, socialists understand that these people need help such as food, housing, work, and education instead of just placing them all in dead end refugee camps and expecting things to turn out well, and that last one is probably the biggest fault in European immigration policies.

Also, culture should be respected as long as it is not in conflict with a communist worldview. I mean, stuff like schools banning Christmas songs because Muslims get offended is just bullshit, and hair dressers refusing service to people just because they enter the building in a hijab, or because they are male is also pretty fucking reactionary (these things actually happened in my home town).

I simply do not believe that materialism was the basic driving force in human development. Sure it could be a factor, but people almost always Identify with their culture before anything else. Once you impose this so called class unity, it almost always degenerates. dialectical materialism seems like a theology to me.
does not seem reciprocated, as in you could have solidarity with the people of egypt, but the working class in egypt identify with their nationality more. and thus when you have them immigrate to your home, they retain their identity.

Are you from Norway?

You guessed it. Although as far as I remember the guy being denied service because he's a guy was in Oslo. The other two in Stavanger.

Of course they do! If they identified with their class then they would have overthrown the current order hundreds of years ago.

Socialists don't identify with their culture first, thye identify with their class, that's the point. The existence of socialists - in all corners of the globe - is proof itself that the old ways of thinking are not absolute or unchangable.

Shit you're right. I don't know how I even became an anti-capitalist since I obviously love being spoon fed American propaganda. It couldn't possibly be that I have a mind of my own or something. No you're right there are no valid criticisms of Stalin even though the overwhelming historical evidence shows he was a paranoid nutbag who mudered millions of his own loyal followers. Everyone who ever said anything bad about the Soviet Union and Stalin is a CIA plant. God you tankies are laughable.

Do people not need to eat? Is it simply a coincidence that the biggest changes in worldview coincided with the overthrow of previous modes of production?

You don't need to let them immigrate, that was just an example of where immigration could be used after a country has overthrown the bourgeoisie. If the majority of the proletariat in a country are fervent chauvinist, there are other ways to show solidarity through mutual respect of the class struggle.

once I meet these mythic socialists who are not simply acting as sjws who exalt reactionary muslims and want to import more of them, while hating everything european and white, we can talk.

Just seems the same. Such as the dehumanization of kulaks and the "bourgeois" and thus allowing their slaughter.

I thought libertarians like HHH and Stefan Molyneux got around this by just saying "the state's bad except when it's keeping not-white folks, gays and commies out in which case it's great"?

Anyway, the leftist position on mass migration isn't supporting trying to mindlessly close borders, nor is it the current state of relying on Latinos to illegally enter the US to provide a cheaper labor source of US corporations. He's talking about the refugee crisis in Europe here, but there are some strong parallels between Europe/the Middle East, and America/Central and South America. inthesetimes.com/article/18385/slavoj-zizek-european-refugee-crisis-and-global-capitalism .

Zizek's kinda a fun introduction to socialist thought. He has many public speaking events you can listen to, and books such as "Against the Double Blackmail: Refugees, Terror and Other Troubles with the Neighbours" where he talks more about the European refugee crisis.

Many socialists IRL seem to have taken liberal talking points into their ideology, including mass immigration. I chalk this up to the the influence of identity politics, the logic being trying to make leftist orgs seem as "inclusive" as possible.

Here's my two cents on mass immigration. Mass immigration harms the working class of the host country by driving down wages and increasing the labor pool, and is promoted by the capitalist class to do exactly that. The short term solution of this problem is two fold. First, we establish and enforce the same wages, benefits and labor rights for the immigrants that the host working class has. We also impose penalties on firms that use illegal immigrant labor. This will reduce the incentive that the capitalist class has to import labor. Second, we fix the situation that has so many people willing to uproot and come to our country in the first place: the terrible wages and working conditions in Mexico and other parts of Latin America. We do this by increasing cooperation and solidarity between US and Latin American labor unions, and by funding worker's parties and movements in Latin America. This can be use by any country that is suffering from mass immigration too.

Honestly, they seem few and far between. Though I suspect the wailing of liberal idpolers have a significant effect on how public they dare to be with their views.

Would you care to present any of this "overwhelming historical evidence" that you've certainly never read?
Here's the thing, unlike people such as yourself, who get most of your history from TV documentaries and hollywood - "tankies" actually tend to read about history.

I'm not a Stalinist, but you can't ignore the fact that Kulaks were burning 1000's of hectares of crops in response to collectivization. Viewing Soviet collectivization in a vacuum is dishonest. The responses from the Kulaks acted as a positive feedback to the state.

Except a person's class is not absolute. Their race and (usually) religion is. Therefore when you base your society around a culture or nationality - that inevitably leads to the slaughter of people who are different - whereas under socialism anyone can be assimilated.

Also the slaughter of the bourgeoisie is great.

I'm not citing the black book of communism or anything like that. The majority of socialists Bourgeois and Socialist believe the purges happened and killed millions. I mean for fucks sake there are Soviet records of it.

Edit: Bourgeois and Socialist historians

also didn't you Stalin worship an agronomist who fabricated most of his works and didn't believe in genetics?

nice work lol

I once read a story about how during the russian civil war a young girls family was killed for being bourgeoisie and how the group of workers took turns spitting on her and called her a rat.

They torched her home and left her too die. Pretty much reaffirming my belief that commies and fascists are the same so good work

lol is this story supposed to make them sound bad?
Surely you can find some more outlandish propaganda than this?

The Soviet records allow for 700,000 deaths. While this is clearly a huge number, this is my point about you lot not knowing your history.

Purges killed 700,000. Stalinist regime death toll is like 3 million.


Collectivization could be justified in hindsight, it more or less functioned as the primitive accumulation of the USSR. If it had not taken place, the USSR would've been in no shape to defeat the Nazis.


Even providing this is true, why do you think anarchist have been exempt from this behavior?

Poorly memed.

The Soviets didnt set up concentration camps and butcher peasants during the Tambov Rebellion? every instance of communist brutality is propaganda?

So that makes it right? im simply trying to understand why people actually want this for society, there are apologists everywhere on this board.

...

No, of course not, but considering you claim to follow right-wing ideology, and the ridiculous, sensational nature of that story, I feel pretty certain that it's a total fabrication.

Some documents relating to the rebellion were found by the local ethnographer Boris Sennikov in 1982 while he was engaged in clearing sand from the altar of the Winter Church of the Kazan monastery [14] During the 1920s, the monastery had been requisitioned for use as the local Cheka headquarters and the church had served as the archive of the Tambov Military Commissariat.

In 1933, the local government decided to burn documents that could compromise the Soviet regime. However, during the process, the fire grew out of control and had to be extinguished by water and, crucially, sand. All documents in the archive were believed to be destroyed; as the church altar was not used by the archive, the surviving documents, covered by a layer of sand, had never been found. In 1982, the local archive changed its address and the church became abandoned. When Sennikov found the documents, the Tambov department of KGB opened a criminal case against him. Later, the case was closed, but Sennikov lost his job.

In 2004, the publishing house Posev published the Sennikov archive as part of The Tambov Rebellion and the Liquidation of Russian Peasantry[12] along with documents relating to the Governorate Military Commissariat (including those dealing with Konstantin Mamontov's 1919 anti-Bolshevik raid, and those describing the Great Purge of the 1930s). The documents also included Red Army orders issued during the rebellion, correspondence, reports of the use of chemical weapons against the peasant rebels, and documents of the Union of the Working Peasants.

I bet this is all reactionary counter-revolutionary propaganda though xDDDD

The Soviet Union didn't genocide anyone.

Except, this isn't close to the previous fiction you posted, which is what we were actually discussing - and I never even mentioned this.

Nice one.

Yes

You can't view the actions taken by a regime outside of the historical and material context they were taken. How are we defining right here. By some kind of Kantian Deontology? Consequentialism? Will to power?

The person most familiar with Soviet history I've seen on the board in Stalintripfag, so if you want to get a proper tankie explanation for Stalinism you should ask him.

Nearly everyone with strong political views comes off as smug. For example, even if libertarianism won me over I'd be embarrassed to be associated with you spergs.
As for immigration, its a bad thing in capitalism and basically doesn't exist under communism. Look at cause and effect.

Proudhon is probably best for you m8.
You may find this interesting.
youtube.com/watch?v=1yXOJjTzvS4&t=1693s

You sound like a fucking liberal.

No it wouldn't. International communism is our solution. The 3rd world doesn't need us to dump food on them, they need us to stop bombing them and stealing their shit.

The difference again, that has to be stressed here at Holla Forums: closing down borders (as if that's not already accounted for in the prevailing ideology) is only going to stop the symptom of immigration. Closing borders formally might (read:will) also not even stop porky from importing a bunch of cheap, "illegal" labour; they pay them so cheaply because they can be threatened with deportation. Even could you stop all people from moving, this would not be a good thing, as we always start to see stagnation in countries isolated from the advances of the world. The point is not to just attack immigrants, like what Holla Forums does, not to merely "protect wages," but to look at what is causing it, to raise wages for everyone, yes, even the immigrants. While the right makes palliative measures against immigration, we want to construct a society on which immigration isn't exactly necessary (as in the case of refugees, or for financing one's life in a "better" place).

This is something people forget a lot when talking about immigration in a communist society; generally, even if there's a poorer nation next to a wealthier one, people won't automatically try to move from one to the other without any kind of economic incentive pushing them. If I and everyone I know grew up in and lives in Lybia, I'm not going to wake up one morning and think "I NEED TO GET ON A DINKY RAFT AND DROWN TRYING TO GET TO ITALY!" unless there's something else going on in my life, like the total meltdown of anything resembling a functioning state, a lack of jobs, etc. Sure, if a random Lybian did wake up one morning feeling that way, a communist Italy should still let them in, but if you have a situation with hundreds of thousands of Lybians doing this regularly, then there's a problem behind that mass migration that needs addressing.

I think we'd have a world socialist state before reaching communism?

That's just liberals.