Super Smash Bros. Melee

If you don't think Ice Climbers are best, you don't know SHIT about vidya.

Hard for me to say, but I'm pretty sure M2K agrees with you. Falco has insane offensive capability but one mistake and he's fucking dead.

no
too bad he's underrated nowadays

It's up there, but there are worse
And it's at least on par for cancer with the FGC (which replaces Nintendo autism with inverse proportions of niggetry and weeb autism based on the game).

Yes. Falco only does slightly better vs fastfallers but has a worse time versus floaties. Fox generally has much more options that are more reliable at any given time, while Falco just combos harder with the fewer options he gets.

He's no worse than 2-4 though. The only character can contest that #1 spot is Marth but that's very contentious.

I sincerely doubt it.

Yes

I love him and he's good, but he's also weird. It's best not to take his "insight" to heart, since he only really talks about matchups in relation to himself.

Donkey Kong Country

I applaud your ability to recognize patterns and also your choice of game.

Understandable. Every player, top or not, has their own ideas about who is good and who isn't. I finally met some guy named Remo who shares my opinion that Mewtwo is actually good. Besides his fucking hurtbox, of course.

Max - An Autistic Journey

oh yes i love smash bros XD

Best game in the franchise tbh

Why can't they just make a new Smash Bros game with the same speed, so everyone can stop playing Melee? And Don't give me that "casuals demand it" crap. Casuals loved Melee. Everyone did. There was never a problem.

Because Nintendo ran with the narrative that an evil group of autisms want to break into your house and force you to turn off items and ban stages and casuals ate it up. They created a problem that didn't exist and now they are too far in the double down zone to go back on it.

Just play PM. :'(

IT HAS TO BE ACCESSIBLE
PEOPLE CANT HAVE SKILL

Honestly, the same shit's been going on with every fucking fighting game franchise. Marvel, street fighter, it's all the same. They're making it more slow and floaty to increase "accessibility". Forgive me if I'm wrong on this one, but I'm pretty sure a version of street fighter 4 had a fucking auto supers button

I mean, I think a lot of those people are faggots too, but letting them have their fun isn't going to ruin mine.

What I'm saying is they think that letting them have their fun will in fact impact others. So I suppose we agree.

That's the thing though. It was always accessible. Kids could pick it up and have fun right away. There was never the slightest problem.

Well, that's the thing. It's a bullshit reason and always has been, yet they keep pushing it.

Masahiro Sakurai was a mistake.

These two don't have to follow each other, I don't understand why they do so frequently. Especially in relation to Smash, which does such a good job of making high-end play visually accessible because of how much of it is in the movement rather than inputs or option selects I'm not a player, that's just what I understand. Even in traditional fighting games, GG and BB have an alternate input system that just lets people mash and do cool-looking things so they can have fun with friends and if they decide to take the game more seriously they can play it traditionally.

You are preaching to the choir, m8. Samurai has nothing but contempt for people that expect new Smash games to have even a fraction of the depth Melee had, and we all know that.

For some reason some companies would rather dumb down the entire game instead of including a 'casual mode'. Maybe they find that casual players resent being made to look inferior so they refuse to choose the simplified mode over the original. Who knows?

The only casual mode Smash Bros ever needed was the easy difficulty that was there from the very beginning. I was like 10 when I first played Melee It's not a remotely hard game to pick up and play.

Here's another:
Who's the most entertaining top 10 to watch and why is it Westballz?

It's as deep as a kiddie pool

If only he picked a single character.
The moment he encounters icies or hbox, the circus intensifies.

ayyo fam load up netplay, let's see some reverse combos

My apologies,
meant to say "reverse ken combos"

He's too inconsistent, despite being one of the most technically-capable players, on par with pre-fox Haxx. People have coined the phrase "Westballz can beat anyone, but anyone can beat Westballz" due to the fact that, a good portion of the time, he'll do a really basic fuckup and sd.

at the very least I know that when he and m2k meet up in bracket, its a free win for my boi jason

Oh, we're talking about gods now? I can't hate Mang0. Defender of the US, destroyer of swedes, but only when he's not on 4 hours of sleep and a nasty hangover.

Mang0 killed Mang0. He won EVO twice and sat on his laurels. He quit striving, and at this point, he deserves a swift kick in the ass; either to get him back in gear, or to get him out.

user, this has happened to every esport game series to exist. Companies double down on predictable game design that caters to the masses (watered down mechanics-choices) in order to sell more games. Literally valve's justification for not adopting cs 1.6 mechanics into csgoshit, as with ssbB. Profit kills creativity just as porn does and enslaves everyone to be consumerist individual piglets. Muh market too risky to add high depth moves, it will scare away players when they get wrecked.

all melee players talk about is memes, the top 8-16 players or what a new smash game should be like
I don't see why people don't think the game is solved at this point.

Well to be fair, that's like all fighting game communities right there. Sans the "AUGH FUCK PEOPLE WHO PLAY THIS CHARACTER" posts.

This is the only game that I can go back to and keep enjoying, there is just something about it y'know. I would love a re-release with online support but that's downright impossible.

Just play it on netplay.

The game wasn't solved until Armada picked up fox and stuck with it for a year. I gave up on the game the moment I realized that it had reached its peak.

YEAH, WHY DON'T WE ALL PLAY IT ON NETPLAY? HUH?

This is where lots of spectators get it wrong. In Melee movement is your option select. If you look at neutral in SF compared to Melee it's completely different due to how free-flowing the movement is. In SF there are 7 different states someone can be in during neutral
Whereas in Melee the opponent can be
That's double what's in SF, though I haven't put quite as many hours in to those games as I have in Melee. This doesn't make it inherently better or worse, but it does change what things like option select are. If I'm Falcon on the left platform of Battlefield above Marth, I can:
Only one of the options I listed involved an attack (which I really only put there for completion's sake). That's how Melee works nowadays. Of course, a top player would probably look at my list and go on a 5 minute rant about how wrong I am, but that's just how it is.

Melee is nowhere near solved. As long as m2k's lazy playstyle is keeping him in the top 5, people like S2J and Wizzy are taking gods to game 5 with Falcon, and Axe is making top 8 with a mid-tier, you will never be able to say Melee is a solved game.

Wario's debut, 'nuff said

It's a fun game but the whole scene somehow manages to be worse than sonicancer.

...

you straight up just talked about the top players to refute my point saying you only talk about the top players

fuck off

This just play Sm4sh fag and get rekt by my Ryu ;^)

If you really think a game that has a mid-tier consistently making top rankings is solved you might just be retarded. Even then, all anyone talks about in any competition are the top competitors you goddamn mongoloid. People who actually play the game talk about the up and comers in their region, but do you think your average football fan knows who the big names in the college league are? But since you decided to make a point about it
The top 10 have been dropping sets to people who were complete no-names two years ago, Chu just took 2 sets of Mang0 in a row and fucking Chillin outplaced Leffen at TBH6.

Kill Yourself™

Wizzrobe and his falcon

Those are just options. Option selects are multiple overlapping commands that are input in a way that causes the game's inherent systems (button priority, hitstop, hitstun and blockstun, buffer windows, etc) to select the best outcome for you. Attached is a video of two examples that were so strong they dictated the top level of play.

For reference, down back LP+LK was known as crouch tech in SF4. LP+LK is the command for throw, if you were standing it produced a throw attempt or a throw escape if someone was trying to throw you, crouching it produces LK because of button priority. In SF4 if someone tried to throw a crouching character it forced them to stand for the tech window, so down back LP+LK was an option select that would produce a throw escape if someone was trying to throw you and crouching LK otherwise. Crouching LK is a very fast and safe button, so down back LP+LK was a strong defensive option that covered a lot of situations.

Oki loses to wakeup DP. Wakeup DP loses to delay oki. Delay oki loses to wakeup throw. Wakeup throw loses to delay crouch tech oki. Example one in the video is down back, delay LP+LK, HP DP oki. Delay LP+LK produces throw tech if they wake-up threw, block if they woke up with buttons, and delay fierce DP if they did nothing which blows up a delay LP+LK defense. Example two is wakeup DP input, down back, delay HP, delay LP+LK, which produces block to beat meaty oki, throw tech to beat throw oki, plus a delay DP that is so delayed that if you block something it never comes out, so it beats oki throw, meaty oki, delay throw, and delay DP, but it loses to very delayed pressure or the attacker doing nothing at all. Layered mind games are fun but the problem I was talking about is if you're a casual watcher all of this is going to slip past you because like only like 20% of it is actually visible and what you can see just looks like a guy whiffing a wakeup uppercut.

USF4 was a silly game.

RIP year of Hungrybox

You are taking a children's game way too serious there, mate.

Isn't "children's game" a bit redundant?

Yes but it was needed here, anyone who takes videogames seriously is a manchild.

It would take at least 3 minutes to accurately describe the exact spacing that both characters are in and how much frame advantage one has over the other before you could go into the 50+ options you missed just for the falcon.

The "dude weed" crowd that plays video games isn't as bad as the autistic furry one.

Yeah the post was already getting pretty long, but let's just say that they were both perfectly centered on/under that platform and they were both at 50%. I was also trying to keep it to 1-2 inputs. Sure I missed basic stuff like jumping to center, but then I'd feel compelled to go over all the different possible analog jumps you could do for that option and the followups you could get out of it.
Melee is sick.

Consider that I'm a low-level player, and then imagine what actually competent players think of. Their autism makes mine look mild.

The thing is though, Smash Bros always catered to masses. It's not like there was ever a fighting game style barrier of entry. Kids could pick up Melee, mash buttons and have fun. They didn't need to dumb anything down to reach a broader audience, because they already had the broadest audience. If anything, they only narrowed their audience by saying "fuck you" to the people who liked Melee's faster pace.

It's like you take a food that everyone likes like pizza, and you say "you know what, pizza isn't reaching a wide enough audience", and for some reason you think the way to reach that wider audience is to spit in the faces of a significant demographic of people who already like pizza, while improving nothing for anyone else.
Find me one person who thought Melee was too difficult to get into but loved Brawl. One person. I don't think that person exists.

It's a common misconception in people who don't know very much about video games, or competition in general - that is, if the skill ceiling exists, then it must be attainable. What people discount is that pro players make mistakes all the time and in a variety of different ways. This happens in every kind of competitive game, but it doesn't denigrate the competitive merit of the games.

If you can, say, wavedash very consistently and control your wavedash distances, then that's being good at Melee. That's a real skill you have over your opponents. Same thing if you have ass tech but you can pick up your opponent's patterns very easily: that's a real skill. Half the fun in the game is picking something and gitting gud, you know?

Vid related.

In SF blocking is done by moving backwards or crouching, in Melee it's done by holding a dedicated button. Crouching in Melee has a completely different context from SF in that regard. Foxtrotting is executing a dash then returning to the neutral position repeatedly, something that has a different context from dash dancing.

You say that like it's a problem, furball.

You must be really dumb if you think blocking is just a side effect of moving backwards. Blocking and walking backwards have the same inputs but the mental decision to block or not must be made far enough in advance to the point where you can't reaction block most attacks. Walking is also a slow, inefficient way to move in most fighting games, which means people usually dash or run to get around at high speed - which opens them up to stray hits more than simply holding back.
What? They're both input the same way. You don't honestly think holding 3 in Street Fighter gets you a block, do you?
Learn to read. I said it's an application of dashing and running, which it is; I never mentioned dashdancing. Thanks for raising that point, though, because the differences between foxtrotting and dashdancing are so small only an autistocrat would claim they're meaningfully different techniques rather than two approaches to the same one.

I guess you can try to insult someone with a buzzword instead of actually knowing anything about the subject at hand.

ALRIGHT BREVS, TIME TO LIST MAINS AND WORST MATCHUPS.

I main Captain Falcon
I get bodied by Falco

YOUR TURN

I mained Captain Falcon.
I got bodied by better players.
I was unreasonably bad versus link.

How do you feel about Fountain of Dreams?

I've watched Melee for years and played it plenty myself. Microspacing is a part of the game (and characters with awful dashdances like Sheik do rely on foxtrotting more as a movement option in general), but you'd be lying to say it's meaningfully different from dashdancing. It's a different approach to the same gameplay space of horizontal grounded movement.

Fuck peach

This matchup chart proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Fox and Falco are for scrubs whose "skill" depends entirely on a moveset advantage. A KO from either Fox or Falco is nowhere near as impressive as one with Bowser or Pichu.

The two main meaningful differences to me are that dashdancing gives you more precise and elusive-looking control over your position while also essentially being a "stand in place" without having to stop moving.

I main Ganondorf
I get bodied by space animals and the anime swordsmen.

...

I just can't deal with that fucking down tilt.
I've never been all that good

I main fox. I get bodied by nearly everything, because I'm the worst player among my friends, except for the pika main and the falco main.

I get especially bodied by peach

Looks like the render was made in an in-browser Second Life clone from 2005 instead of G-Mod.

And I like that

Why is Melee so boring to watch?

The meta peaked.

It's like you faggots don't want to play games with depth.

You losers better be ready to FIGHT ME in two hours. I mean it this time!

I'm serious here! You have one hour to prepare yourselves!

empty threats

You got like ten minutes, boyo.

smashladder.com/guides/view/26tx/melee-dolphin-build-fastermelee-v4-4

Better grab that 4.4 while you have the chance.

...

08aa964d
It is time. Join this room by pasting this room code, HOMOS.

Holy shit you're retarded and completely missed the fucking point of the original post. I was referring to the states a character can be in during neutral, and in SF a blocking state only occurs when a move hits a player who is moving backwards or crouching, i.e. NOT NEUTRAL. In Smash a blocking state can be initiated at any time since it has a dedicated button. Adding in foxtrot was a mistake, it's got a different character state in the later Smash games and I confused it with Melee's.
In SF a player is crouching to block an incoming attack. In Melee a player is crouching to crouch-cancel an opponent's attack and gain an advantage (ex: Peach CCs Fox's nair and down-smashes).
Dashdancing is done as a form of ambiguous movement. There is nothing ambiguous about a foxtrot, which is used almost exclusively in an aggressive manner.

Hold down you idiot.

Yeah, i know i should. I just have a bunch of bad habits that this one faggot has picked up on so he continuously uses Roy just to humilliate me.
I haven't been able to accurately predict his moves so for now i'm showing up to my weekly Melee meet up just to get assraped by swordsmen. He's fairly new to the group so it'll take some time before i find his weakness like i did with the rest of the fags there.

Damn, you ARE dumb. Every real fighting game has a distance at which your character will be locked into the blocking animation even if the attack whiffs. And before you start screeching, this can inform neutral: if your opponent whiffs a multi-hit move like Q's EX swipes, then you'll be "frozen" in a blocking state until you hold forwards or input an attack. In a game like Guilty Gear Xrd where you can Roman Cancel out of anything if you have the meter, you could whiff a move to put your opponent in pseudo-blockstun, then RC into an attack to stuff his baited attack.

Overly elaborate, perhaps, but a possibility nonetheless. SF4 had (red) focus attacks, which behaved very similarly to crouch cancelling. Non-SF games can also have universal armour mechanics like Blitz attacks in GGXrd.
Or, y'know, to do a low attack or to feint another option. You could even be crouching and open yourself up to fuzzy guard situations, but Melee lacks this complexity so I can see why you wouldn't know about the concept.
Or to do a low attack, or feint a low attack, or to avoid an attack with a high hitbox. Sheik and Jigglypuff do this all the time.
I see what you mean, but foxtrotting is simply one dash animation, whereas dashdancing is many dash animations cancelled into one another. You can't really call them different states if the only difference is the number of times you do it (unless you're talking about skidding, which of course isn't foxtrotting).

Why are foxes so fucking cute?

No Courage or Eds is a fucking dealbreaker.

I'm not talking about GG or any of the other games you mentioned. I've explicitly stated in each post that I'm referreing to SF. I'm not sure why you keep bringing other games up. I neglected to mention Focus because SF4 a shit.
My whole point was that crouching in either game creates a different set of risks/rewards, thus creating different context for doing it.

i had a turboautist friend who hated melee, loved smash 4 and wanted both ridley and meta ridley as separate characters as DLC. i remember fucking him up so hard in smash he started crying like a little bitch

Purely because the mechanics were too hard?

because "REEEEEE IT DOESNT FEEL RIGHT"
he was pretty reddistic

...

...

Nothing makes me feel more inadequate than watching this old man decide where he wants his shots to go on a whim while I struggle to hit a target at all. A shame about MA's shitty gun laws keeping me from the range so often.

you guys like video games?
I do, puff is a fun character. video games are the best!

Hey puff is pretty cool. Too bad you are garbage

Should Sakurai be criticized for completely ruining Kirby in Melee just to not be accused of favoritism?

...

aMSa

I'm okay with Kirby being trash considering how cancerous 64 Kirby is.

Fuck you, 64 is great, combining powers is way more fun than the retarded gimmicks they have now.

...

For some reason I thought you were talking about the Kirby game on 64, not the original Smash's Kirby.

you know what's also garbage?
Analog sticks and smash

That's just a shortcut for newer players and lazy people. How effective it is is about timing and where the player intends on sending you if it successfully connects.

If that makes or breaks the game for you, you need to improve your skill.

play smash 4

I'd agree with this pic if it weren't for things like
-chess
-sports invented more then 50 years ago
-NEW fighting games that become stale in just a couple of months (sfv/injust)

but melee will die because you can only put up with the cancerous community and cancerous matchups for so long. unlike games that stand the test of time. I theorize that if melee swapped jigglypuff for another spacie like wolf for more technical variety, ganon fought like a wizard, link and mario were at least mid-high tier (for appearance), peach had a worse down-smash and the low tiers were thrown a bone so they could at least be playable like most fighting games, melee would've been a much more massive hit in its early competitive scene. but its still nintendo so no way of fixing that or it wouldn't be smash.

You can tell how bad melee is by its roots in the competitive scene. For those who don't know, items and stages like poke floats were originally legal in tournament because of how autistic the scene was back then.

autism did not flock to melee. it started with Autism, and the Autism is what kept it alive.

High level chess seems so unfun I don't know how people can do it.

at that point, fun is a distraction

g i t g u d

smash is too retarded to be concidered a fighting game, It's more like a party game tbh.

...

Puff is the el fuerte. The annoying fuck who does the same shit but you still fall for it. Removing or replacing puff is a terrible subjective decision.
Now you are being even more subjective when ganon's moveset only needs a little bit of a touchup like in PM or SD remix to make him good.
Good luck doing this without making them piss easy to use

I was trying to start a completely different point about melee. The whole smashbox debate has come about because gccs are shittily imprecise and wear out super easy.
Standard 2D fighting games don't really have this issue about bringing new controllers in because how much better can you make one controller over the other without adding macros? But when you bring something in with binary button presses and absolute input, you overcome some of the major flaws of the ggc, and people hate it for this and argue it should be banned for the situations it is just better.
I wasn't trying to make a point about my skill or anything, just a segway into this point.

Both are automatically better than 4 for not having the autism that's killing Mario/Nintendo (Rosalina + Koopalings)

Rosalina is literally Lightning

spotted the loser who can't DI for shit

When will this qt win a major?

t.Daisy

Sports are much more difficult than games to solve, simply because they require so much more of a person. That said, look at basketball and you can see efficiency having a direct effect on the game; if you aren't making a 3 pointer or a dunk/layup with the foul, you are far less efficient than any other player at scoring. Mid-long range twos? If that's your bread and butter, you need to learn to penetrate or spread the floor.

I'd love to see fighting gamers take their autism to something like NBA 2K and really shred the system.

Soon. He took sets off 2 gods at Rivalries and will continue to exist as a human further into infinity.

This guy is so good but he has moments in a lot of sets where he just decides to play like a complete casual and it drives me crazy. Yes, Falcon kick can be a good mixup in a pinch and in a very specific situation. No, you shouldn't use it multiple times in the same god damn stock what the fuck why are you using side b half a stage away are you fucking insane quit dropping gentlemen 50% of the time god damn

Sometimes, I wish I had gotten into Melee, but since the Gamecube controller was just such ass, I couldn't.

t. N64 owner

Catherine is the only reason to watch Evo.

...

LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE LIKE MELEE

Bayonetta is fair and balanced