We've pretty much established immigrants are bad right...

We've pretty much established immigrants are bad right? Either they leech off everyone or reduce wages by being willing to be paid less. They hurt social cohesion and security for the citizens

So what now. Should we, I don't know, start arguing for mass deportation or suppression of some other kind. I don't understand how you can know all the shit that immigration causes and not support thier immediate deportation.

Other urls found in this thread:

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/03/04.htm
nber.org/papers/w14188
nber.org/papers/w15507.pdf
nber.org/papers/w12497.pdf
ftp.iza.org/dp5853.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Migrants are workers to

All workers matter

Economics is not a zero sum game

Most of the shit that migration is claimed to cause is caused by capitalism

kys

Close the borders for both capitalists and mass migration.


ancap argument

Wages will still stay low for workers and people will get laid off because their boss doesn't want to have have to pay for the same amount of productivity at greater a price. Not only this, but you're implicitly forcing the deported to accept even lower conditions than they already do.

Lol. Sounds like a slogan a liberal would use

Charity is bourgeoise. I don't care about them

There's a huge difference between not being charitable and intentionally making a situation worse for someone.

Yes, immigration under capitalism is bad. No, you can't just "close the borders" and leave it at that.

The way forward is to end global trade, abolish capitalist nation-states and focus on regionalized socialist societies that are mutually self-sufficient and thus do not create the conditions for mass migration.

Either that, or you go full internationalist and find a way to harmonize workers' rights and conditions across the planet. Because it is inequality across the global proletariat, as well as crises brought about by capitalist exploitation, that are the main drivers of mass migration and all the problems it entails.

You and I suffer because of them. Morals are irrelevant. You are a bleeding heart liberal and your want to help these poor browns is quite charitable

Also, if you didn't care about immigrants so much you wouldn't have made such a shitty thread.

I don't care about them or thier well being. But when they come here and shit up my country I start caring

I do not suffer because of immigrants working for low wages. I suffer because porky chooses not to raise these wages for workers in general. I did not even suggest "helping" anyone. I only said that your masquerading deportation as something that will fundamentally change the system is deluded.

Fundamentally changing the system is meaningless. There won't be a revolution anytime soon you Marxist retard.

Of the groups fucking up my country, they are the easiest targets and getting rid of the them is a realistic goal

you suffer if a citizen does your job for less money too. capitalism pits workers against each other no matter where they're from. since when is class consciousness charity?

fuck off

You mean like how the first world world leeches of the third world?

It is meaningful for all whom have been deprived by the former.
Irrelevant and does not follow from the premise.
Oh, so we should do things because they are easy and not that they would manage to enrich our lives? You know, for a person who pretends to be a protector of cultural artifacts, you don't seem to know how culture works. Moreover, you'd be wrong if you think they are the easiest when you have internally those from your country who would forsake it if only for a little bit of cash.

Anti immigrationfags seem to think immigrants pop out of thin air and come to their countries for no good reason.
People immigrates because they're alienated from their labor on their home countries.

anti mass immigration doesn't mean we need to deport all of them, retard. Every person integrated into society is good.

All governmental positions taken in the present society are there to maintain the status quo of property relations. The only allowed question is how to best maintain those relations? That range falls between leftist populism and fascism. The decision of whether to have in place a Liberal populist of the FDR stripe or authoritarian populist of the Trump variety is a reflection of the needs of capitalism to deal with specific issues.

What remains is the need to prop up the dictatorship of capital – the system itself.

All over the world, bosses and bourgeois governments of all colours attack the living conditions of the working class, because an in increase in the exploitation of it is the only real option they have to keep the capitalist economy holding together, as it is inevitably heading towards a breakdown and a world war between the States.

Likewise for racism, the question is not race but of class; and that’s why the immigrant proletarians should not be deluded that they can solve their problems by relying on abstract bourgeois ideals. To fight sickening racism with anti-racism, in terms of superficial moralism and respect of cultures, is not only helpless but is harmful because it does not challenge any of the profound material bases of this reactionary ideology. The only true anti-racist struggle is and will be the class struggle, because it unifies workers beyond races and nationalities, and it leads them to going beyond capitalism.

While it is an illusion for foreign workers to expect that racism is defeated through the abstract ideals of bourgeois equality, the class-conscious proletariat should embrace and sincerely welcome the struggle for total extension of civil and labour rights to anyone who sells its work force to Capital. To win this struggle, immigrants as well as native workers must recognize themselves as citizens of the single world class. As struggle that will have many facets but that can be pursued only within a strong class trade union movement, which must tend to be a single defensive front for the class struggle of the entire working class, either indigenous or migrant. A trade union organization that will fight against the threat of the loss of the migrant workers’ residence permit in case of dismissal.

Only the revolutionary movement of the proletarians of all countries, united in the same struggle against the common enemy, the bourgeoisie, will solve the problems of forced migration but also those of the exploitation of man by man, laying the necessary foundations for future Communist society.

Movements like Fight for $15 and OurWalmart have been positive for working class efforts to improve its conditions. But the benefits of these groups have been undercut by the needs of business unions such as SEIU and UFCW. These unions put their efforts into elections and not what workers can accomplish on their own efforts. So the significant efforts of Fight for $15 were diverted - pre-nomination! - to supporting the hostile to unions Hillary Clinton.

These days, ‘Class Unions’ like the ILWU, UE and IWW are needed – unions who are run by their memberships and who fight hard to the end for their causes. Worker Centers, like Coalition of Immokalee Workers and the Solidarity Network movement are also important movements building an independent working class resistance to immiseration.

this is such a classic Holla Forums subversion line

The problem with these threads and posters using these arguments is that you don't actually care about wages. You see it as an effect of the problem, but as such when the problem seems to be solved you give up on reversing the damage. The difference between you and real socialists is that we want to construct a society on which immigration isn't necessary. You however only want to placate the symptom when it gets to hard for you to bear. Low energy.

Immigration is bad, not the immigrants. Worse than it being bad it's unnecessary and caused by the terrible economic system we're under. Without awful trade deals, the IMF and neoliberal policies being forced on developing nations a lot less people would feel pressured to run towards greener pastures.

When did we decide that? Perhaps we should never side with bourgeois state no matter what position they take on immigration. To me that seems like the only worker friendly position. That pic related is good though

Please return to your own board.

Only porkies leach off the thirds world, but im interested in why you think that.

this

Go to America. Pick any store. Now look for the items that were made in a Chinese gulag.

Because Imwant to see society burn

So? If they weren't made in china they would be made in north carolina or texas or wherever. All i see are profits stolen from american labor, foreign markets used as porky's hammer. It seems that things are the opposite of what you have presented.

You asked for proof of the first world profiting off the third world. I gave it to you.

Lol

yeh, I got a feeling Holla Forums is behind this. They have a history of trying to get us to support nationalism. Luckily they're not really subtle about it.

So why aren't they? It's almost as if third world labour being so cheap makes it easier to get a profit…

Im not even a lefty but I do like this idea.

So like people in the middle east wouldn't have cars or phones or anything that they are not capable of producing themselves and basically they would be back in the middle ages where they are happy.

Because porkies on both sides hammered it into a profitable endeavor. Things aren't magically cheaper to produce with a bunch of brown people and thousands of miles of ocean travel, it requires coordination between the capital controlling forces of both sides.

My god imagine being this stupid

This is wrong if you consider fiat currencies dark magic

It is irrelevant how it is done. Again, you asked only for proof that it is done. Also, Chinese aren't even brown wtf get your slurs in order!

You might think its stupid to have bronze age attitudes but they like it.
Who are you to tell them they are stupid?

Once you give muslims access to the internet, thats millions of pictures of mohammed they can find and get irate over.

Someone not as stupid as you

Oh real nice, just shit on the NazBols when we stick up for you, meanwhile the tankies and CNT-enthusiast cough medicine swilling egomaniacs you fraternize with wanna choke people with your guts like their liberal pal Diderot said to.

So first you call the entire middle east stupid and now me?

You sir…. You are a person who says mean words on the internet.

Holla Forums does loads of threads like this, using leftist rhetoric and Holla Forums memes to try herd to userbase to right wing ideas.

tbh I'm sick of the race realist, pedo and anti feminist threads. Holla Forums's anti idpol stance is easily subverted into borderline Holla Forums behavior.

You can always go back to Holla Forums if you dont like it here, as they say

Fuck off back to Holla Forums and tell your stormfag friends that your shill tactics are ineffective.

They're not even the cool nationalists. They're the nationalists who have nothing better to do but complain about how their safespace is always being subverted by outside forces.

I do like it here.

Reminder the NazBol symbolatry is borrowed from the Maoist hammer and sickle/color aesthetic, and that the nigga in that pic is a Maoist and not a NazBub.

They are a structural hindrance. Eventually you just have enclaves of ethnic businesses and corps and nothing is distributed properly.

You need borders.

You mean the gulags china purposely opened to undermine the american economy?

BLASPHEMY

May the mighty Soros banish you from leftypol.

Oh yes, the American economy absolutely can't stand to have cheap Chinese commodities flowing through it.

Looks like Holla Forums is at full force today

This.


Fuck off. Being against immigrants themselves is anti-worker. Poor mexicans/nigerians/polish workers come from countries that have been fucked by capitalism and imperialism and want better lives for themselves. Opposing mass immigration is reactionary if it's not accompanied by an equally loud opposition of neocolonialism and neoliberalism. Personally I'll support the right of people to immigrate as long as my country is a capitalist abomination destroying their homes.

Soros is not a leftist.

Left and right have become meaningless anyway.

Soros is a globalist. And the opposite of globalism is nationalism.

Have you seen the supposed industry unemployment figures? People thought it was so bad they elected donald trump, so clearly it cannot stand it.

...

No

Bingo

What the fuck god damn it

Migrants are feudalists, faggot. All those incapable of industrializing on their own are primitive and need to be gassed.

...

If people thought buying commodities from China was bad then they must really want to stay evil.

The problem is that nobody wins. China gets useless paper for their country. US gets products and has to hold them but can't sell them because said paper money is now in china.

It's fucking retarded. Stores are storing products in places where only the very rich can buy them.
The whole thing is just plain stupidity and lack of knowledge of capital usage within countries.

To be honest, I can see nothing as potentially, systematically dangerous to current capitalism as the modern trend towards decreasing populations. The current Northern and Western policies of mass migration are Porky's last stopgap measure before resorting to Ceausescu-like menstruation policing. Opposing mass-migration then, though accelerationist, is the most concrete manti-capitalist measure you can take nowadays.

That is a minority opinion I think.

In my country most of what trade unions do now is prevent foreign workers taking over peoples jobs.
Its really increased their support when they almost died out here.

You forgot your Nazi flag

I've got the feeling that there are only Holla Forumsyps on this thread pretending to be anarchists, moderates, etc. and these Holla Forumsacks are arguing among themselves.

You forgot to mention CHEAP commodities. And what's wrong with buying foreign goods? You're empowering the gul- i mean emporing the disadvantaged workers with demand!

You heard it here first! GAS ALL THE NEONATALS, IF THEY CANNOT STOP LEECHING OFF THEIR MOTHERS AND LEARN TO FEED THEMSELVES

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this:

> I've got the feeling that there are only Holla Forumsyps on this thread pretending to be anarchists, moderates, etc. and these Holla Forumsacks are arguing among themselves.

No, I mentioned that they were cheap earlier and that this was why turning a profit on them was so easy. There's nothing wrong with buying foreign goods per se, it's when one must toil and see no benefit while the other produces nothing and sees it all.

Im not saying that immigration doesnt cause problems for native workers. It does, and that's ideal for the capitalists who love a divided proletariat. Competition between immigrants and native workers reinforces the useful (to the bourgeosie) construct of nation-states and also ensures that no one cares enough about immigrants to demand their rights and their pay, meaning they become cheap workers that can easily be exploited, meaning capitalists will keep flooding them into your country to compete with you precisely because trade unions and native workers dont stand in solidarity with them and demand fair treatment and fair pay. If capitalists had to pay immigrants the same as nationals they wouldnt bother spurring on immigration.

And thats why Unions should unionize every migrant worker under a one big union, with complete disregard to nationality or legal status

There we have it boys, nationalism proves itself to be bourgeoise once again!

No, they're workers too.

Either the low wages come to Porky or Porky does to the low wages. If you're so concerned about workers' wages in the short term, why not advocate a higher minimum wage and the establishment of work programs? Besides, this whole logic assumes that labor will always be a commodity bought and traded by capitalists and seeks to retain it's market value.

Nice job regurgitating a nonsensical fascist meme.

That viewpoint is certainly going out of fashion in my country.

Most unions here get the best response when they are protecting workers here against being undercut by workers from overseas.
If you started talking about migrants right to work here, union members would ask why they can do that job in their home country?

Obviously a lot of these migrants have ruined their home countries so there is no work there.
But that isnt a convincing argument for someone here to give up his job so that someone from a foreign country can do it for much less because his family lives in a poor country with lower living costs.

wat

idpol should be banned tbh, seriously, those Holla Forumsype fags are just here to waste our time.
we could be doing useful stuff instead of having to debunk their shit over and over again

Fuck your degenerate human farm of interchangable 'parts'.

No, faggot. lrn2Marx

Here, lemme translate that for you.

Show me where Marx says:

That's right. It doesn't exist in Marx. He would not say that anyone could industrialize on their own.

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/03/04.htm

So, my handicapped anfag friend, what were the opinions of Marx and Engels on niggers and spics?

Hint: you can't have class struggle when you are several stages behind the civilized world and are incapable of advancing yourself further without whitey welfare

You neglected to mention that he was critiquing Ricardo when he said this. Followed by:

It must really chap your ass to realize context matters. See Engels' "racial trash" essay. Marxism, during the lifetime of Marx, was a wholly Eurocentric philosophy.

No matter how you try to rationalize otherwise, you cannot have class struggle for Socialism when you lack the ability to industrialize on your own. You can build mighty industry to your hearts' content in the Middle East, but they have been stuck in the feudal mentality for the thousand years. And sub-Saharan Africa has been stuck in 100,000 years ago.

Perhaps you'd be better off with the SJW feels brigade if you can't handle that.

It must really chap your ass that Marx is not the reactionary you're trying to paint him as. You're right, context certainly matters and that's why when I put it back in place you proceed with the adhoms instead of constructing an actual argument.
Again, Marx would not say that people can industrialize on their own (production is always a social act). If you actually read your sources:

remember that time europe industrialized on its own without colonialism?

Fuck off, Holla Forums

Remember that time when Marx praised the United States for conquering a large chunk of Mexico because the Mexicans were too lazy to do anything with the land?

Hmn… Marx arguing for tutelage and annexation rather than shunning and exile. Imagine that.

why are people from one country more entitled to a job than those from another? also, there's limited evidence that immigrants depress wages significantly. the only major economist who agrees with that sentiment is george borjas.

some good studies on the topic:

nber.org/papers/w14188
nber.org/papers/w15507.pdf
nber.org/papers/w12497.pdf
ftp.iza.org/dp5853.pdf

Because the opposite is exactly what porky wants? Labor distilled to interchangeable global commodity units that can be taken or set aside without consequence, driven down in value by market variables to the lowest viable price.

I can think of no better way to keep the working class down then to force them to engage in a bidding war over wages with the poorest, most desperate motherfuckers on the planet.