So is it official that's he's not a socialist in any way at all now?

Yeah, but psychologically I'm afraid to because I am self conscious and don't feel like I've read enough let alone the "right" things.

You're trying so hard to create a dialectic that leads to a legitimate war. I want a dialectic that overwhelms.

In creating many economic classes you're creating a division in people's perceived relation to the means of production and therefore make it easier to manipulate people psychologically to fight against their own self interest.

You can take something like the French Revolution and say "The Middle Class took control of the country from the Monarchy" and suddenly Middle Class and Bourgeoisie are synonymous.

So while yes, we can say "poor people are worse off than people in the suburbs" if we allow this phrasing to continue we're gonna continue being a joke and perceived villain in the Western World especially the US

Do it. Read what you can of course, but don't let obnoxious faggots shut you down. What you'll come to realize if you're genuine poor working class is that many of these so-called leftists are just edgy liberals high on their own self-import and they are generally from the petit-bourgeois class. They tend to be snakes and turncoat opportunists.

Look at them sperging out over the colloquial use of "middle class" ITT for example. Typical rich brats who want to be in the prole club. They'll endlessly equivocate when it suits their own rhetorical purposes though. In a certain sense it doesn't matter if you engage with these types of people or not, the discourse on the terms they define, as they're ultimately useless and will grow out of leftism anyway.

Just do your thing. Fuck the haters.

I can see why you get lambasted.

Cram it lumpen, your worst nightmare is genuine proletarian socialism and you can't hide behind your "learned" obscurantism any more. I'll intellectualize anything the proles say no matter how retarded, deconstruct everything the petit-bourgeois tries to say, and beat you at every linguistic game you try play. I don't even have to read comprehensively I can fast skim and locate the weakest points, exploit them, and crush the whole edifice, and I'm teaching them how to do it. Welcome to the end game.

Congratulations this is the most autistic thing I've read so far today.

Why do you hate the idea of the Middle Class suburbanite. Might it be because you're all middle class suburbanites?

Anyways, it's not like the Middle Class isn't working class. They are. Its just their kids and often themselves are full of shit and either don't know the experience of being far lower down the line of income or up that much higher.

This class happens to be the most politically active in America, and American politics are absolute fucking shit, so the stereotype is well deserved in some cases. They're often ignorant of the life experiences they speak on behalf of, and when they're challenged on it they get extremely defensive.

This is not synonymous with the liberal left, but also American "Republicans".

Really all the people who can worry about politics enough at every point in their life despite not experiencing it are bound to have incorrect emotion based assumptions on the topic, and for people who are working for a living not within their income bracket (which is drying up anyways), it's annoying as fuck.

It's a certain type of person and it does exist. There are plenty of examples from this board and all collectivist areas of the internet, really no different than r/socialism, but in a different way equally able to be critiqued.

Why, because I look at things from a different perspective? Because I factor in how people interpret words and why that can affect how successful a revolution would be?

You seem like you're mostly interested in the smug asshole aspect of Marxism as opposed to the "lets get this motherfucker into praxis" aspects of Marxism. You are forever going to retard this movement. I've started taking these lines simply because most of my friends are not Marxists and listening to them and talking to them about my views I've discovered that I can change how they think about the aspects of Marxism if I don't make it all high and mighty.

If you make your ideology seem inaccessible it will be inaccessible. I came to Marxism through my analysis of history, this is far different than many people and therefore leads to me taking positions that don't always fall doctrinally in line, but I am a firm believer in the success of dialectical materialism, technological determinism and historical materialism as methods of explaining history and human progress.

But I've discovered through my reading that for the most part I agree with Marx and Lenin. It's silly to lambast fellow leftists for how they use words, because your average exploited working class immigrant or even your average English speaker doesn't know as many fancy words as you and would much rather you talk to them in a way that doesn't seem demeaning.

I really don't care, I would very much prefer Marxist socialism, but if I have to watch leftists squander the cocktail of the internet and neoliberalism for now and I fear getting into the debate because I do not like getting told I'm wrong about history by ideologues who don't understand it as a field of study.

twitter is meaningless

you can't properly state your ideas with 140 letters or less

Too bad no one gives a fuck what you think, or if they for whatever reason do currently, won't, at least when I'm done. Best part: there's absolutely zero you can do about it, except the classic cry&sage combo..

You just did though

All the "literary left" types need a purge. What has this shit done for anyone aside from making the left look bad?

Guys

Working-class =/= poor

He's referring to SJWs and idpol faggots. The sorts of "socialists" who are college students and despise actual working-class people for "muh racism"

Honestly, this is the problem with "middle-class". It can used to refer to the working class due to them having more wealth than the lumpens, but it can also refer to the professional-managerial class or to the self-employed, both of whom are wealthier than most of the population. Most of the "middle-class socialists", from my experiences, tend to be of the professional-managerial class.

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but aside from going into pointless shit you can't properly do that

especially if you're discussing politics or philosophy

end this meme

The ruling class is probably smaller than the top 1%. A well-paid doctor can be in the top 1%.

Assmad labor aristocrat detected.

You can also attach pictures you know, screen caps of text.

I don't think twitter was ever meant for philosophy. I thought it was just meant for celebrities to get into fights with each other while they are on drug binges

read marx

pretty much

which is kinda funny seeing pseudo intellectuals and e-celebs try to debate politics and philosophy and what not even though 99% of them go nowhere

the use of lumpen is this boards greatest crime tbh

that 89% has more lumpen than you can probably figure

Too bad I refuse to not point out the petit-bourgeois' labor aristocracy's perma-lumpen status.

read marx

Yet another swing and a miss.

read marx

Shut up and read Marx

I know Marx. That's why I'm so good at dialectics. Don't you get it yet?

I really think it's the most obsolete social networking site, if you want anonymity there's reddit and chans, if you want networking with people there's facebook.

It's useless for anything but finding out what celebrities have drug problems

rebel is an upper class """socialist""" (or post left christian anarcho-monarchist or whatever the fuck)

read marx

But wouldn't the economic middle class be better off supporting neo-liberalism? If they actually read leftist ideas and understand what it is about. Does it matter if they are from the economic middle or lower class? As long as they are genuinely about being socialists. It all seems like a competition of who has it the worst income.

It's massively autistic for the least part because you're acting like you know the least thing about me. Look at all that bullshit you wrote. You should feel really embarrassed for acting like such a massive cockholster.

Middle class are the bourgeoisie. They overthrew the upperclass, the nobility, and took their place.

I really don't think you thought that one through

read marx

In what sense did I misuse those terms? Waiting for your dazzling command of the M-C-M' circuit or metabolic rift.

Oh wait, all you can do is screech vainly into the abyss, like the useless garbage you are.

You see the problem is that while you're right, he's also right. The American education system teaches that he's right, but the realistic historical events prove you to be right.

Can you not see how that may be a problem when you're trying to explain socialism to someone who has only known liberalism

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Touch a nerve did I?

still not reading marx

You've done nothing but write massive spergy posts attacking your fictionalized ideological adversaries and self righteously announce yourself as the real true saviour of the proletariat.

I wonder if there has ever been a more embarrassing public tantrum in the history of leftism.

Well done, you certainly showed me. I suggest you acquaint yourself with basic Third Worldist literature before you accuse me of mishandling terminology.

the "middle class" are not the bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie are the ruling class in capitalist society

when people discuss the "middle class" they are typically discussing the petite-bourgeoisie

So what is your point here? You're just kind of being an asshole, you haven't contributed anything and when I stated an opinion you rejected it and called me a sperg for expressing that opinion

You're adding nothing to the conversation

read marx

I think you got it backwards. The bourg were the middle class and then they took over. There is no middle class in capitalism. The bourgeoisie were the last class to be "middle."

Can you not see how you have a problem there.

Your version of people and my version of people are very different. When people I talk to are talking about the Middle Class they usually associate it with material possessions as opposed to capital possessions, so when talking to your average person about your beliefs you're gonna fuck yourself

Now that working person thinks they're petit bourgeois because they drive a car with Siri in it and they are 16 years into a 30 year mortgage.

Yeah I know I got it backwards. I intentionally got it backwards to show how the American education system teaches it.

lmao

Maybe we should believe Liberals when they call themselves Dragon-kin.

Thnx Rebel, you've changed my life.

I think you misinterpreted me, "the people" you refer to are people you associate with, fellow left wingers likely who are more aware of class and the whatnot. When I mean people I mean the people I meet in bars and from non-leftist circles.

No, I know who and what you mean. And through some partial sense they're aware of their circumstance.

Moreso than you credit.

you should read marx because you don't understand basic marxist terms

More accurately, they were the middle class. After the liberal revolutions the bourgeoisie became the dominant class who instituted rules favorable to them, as can be seen as the US Constitution's emphasis on protection of property. As the dust settled, a new middle class rose in the form of the petit-bourgeois, with the proletariat forming the lower class and lumpenproletariat forming the underclass.

Thsse days though we have situations where some petit-bourgeois are less well off then some proles (well paid managerial workers) and on paper have much more in common with laborers than they do bourgeoisie. Not to mention the growing number thay filter back and forth between lumpen and prole as markets shake. A new analysis is needed and despite Reddit Obesity being a massive faggot he isn't wrong, college club socialists(aka edgy liberals) don't like working class people and it has hurt the movement.

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Well I know they're aware of their circumstance, but the etymology of words the superstructure uses create confusion for regular people that I frankly think should be avoided

>>>Holla Forums

away you go

For what he's doing, it's apt.

This sentence doesn't mean what you think it means.

Maybe in order to distinguish ourselves from edgy liberals we should BTFO them in terms that relate directly to their disdain for working class people.

liberals please go

Being a working class guy myself I agree. We'd have to reach out to working kids and I'm not sure what we'd do, but the thing to remeber is we have to convince the audience and not the opponent.

If it wasn't for the way people treat Marx and other writers, the comparison would not be apt. Too bad people treat "X wrote it, it must be true" as an argument instead of articulating their position, which is in terms of argument is the same as quoting a Bible verse.

see

Nowhere in Marx did I read "treat me as though everything I have written is the infallible truth for all time, as though singular genius can exist, leaping out from a world of material conditions to bifurcate history". In fact the methodology he described precludes this.

It's almost like critical reasoning skills are non-commensurate with consumerism

wew

Good luck doing dialectics without it.

friendly reminder not to bump eceleb threads

I fucking hate this meme, socialism is not about loving the working class, in fact, the point is to abolish the working class! Are you fucking retarded?! You don't have to love the working class to be a socialist! They are the result of alienation, a product of capitalist society! The world would be better off without working people!!

I can't control what Sargon misinterprets and retweets. but I stand by the tweet.

Into the gulag you go.

Petit-bourgeois intellectualism at its finest.

Okay what did I say then?

Revolutionary theory cannot glorify the proletariat, "proletarian culture", "proletarian morality", etc. This would only be the glorification of alienation itself. What is positive about the proletariat is the historical possibility of its self-negation: since, for the proletariat, to free itself is to abolish itself, by abolishing Capital, class society, and alienated labor – that is its only glory.

Holy shit lmao. Every. Time.

The point is that they're shitting on people who are in the prole class. Shitting on the class, not the people is a different matter, you fucking retard.

isn't he just citing marxism?

That's the difference between you and me.

The retarded version yeah. It's basically a class idpol for the intellectual crypto-class.

I don't get why we give any fucks about their morality or their culture. Let them argue over what month is appropriate for an abortion and whether football is more exciting than basketball. They don't need to devote every waking moment to thought and theory

That makes even less sense.

Bourgies pls go

Why does rebel get so much hate? He seems like one of the most rational people on this board.

We really do need to be less intellectual. I try to rarely write above a high school grade level unless it's academic shit, and even then I use simple English

I honestly should have used quotes on "their", right after posting that I noticed I forgot to do that

No fuck the petit-bourgeois intellectuals. They reveal themselves again and again. The internet has all the books in the world. They can't control knowledge any more and they're sperging out about it wildly.

I just don't get it. He's got lots of friends.

Is grabbing a woman by her genitals sexual assault?

Holla Forums's latest psy op is to show good faith towards Rebel? What the fuck hahaha

I don't mind Rebel, the kid's fairly retarded though. Also, is a tripfag

t. Rebel.

Nah, it's just memory.

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This meme is stale famalam.

Not to mention, Rebel has been friendly to [email protected]/* */ and NazBols in the past, so I'm going to show him the same respect.

Sorry fam, I'd never purposefully besmirch a NazBol. Nazi flag usually means "lel im literally from Holla Forums, mad?" tho.

Gee, this Rebel guy sure sounds like an asshole!

t. bob black

Fair enough.

He's a nice guy.

Or Marx

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Socialism may not be about loving the working class, but Marx's whole project was about using the working class to abolish capitalism. You won't exactly win them over with that attitude.

Dude…
just stop…

You don't need to win them over, learn some dialectics kiddie

Not him but personally I am more of a Blanquist.

You say this, but I'm teaching them dialectics. Ruh roh.

Hating the class (a part of the system) for existing is different from hating people who are stuck in that class.

it's kinda sad really. I mean I think he's probably still a socialist, but it's kinda like when Orwell spent so much time shitting on the left that now everyone thinks he was anti-communist. Fuckin Sargon of Akkad is probably gonna try and use Rebel as ammo because Rebel can't just swallow is pride and side with your average leftists anymore.

You gotta strike a balance between calling out first-day commie kids on their shit and not being anti-socialism as a whole.

Maybe rebel will eventually become one of those new-atheist liberals. Hopefully then we'll have less namefagging on our board with A.W., Rebel, and (I think) Muke as well being gone.

nahh, he's an asshole. He's just got a very small list of people who he doesn't shit on and turdpositionists happen to be on that list. The funny thing is he's become even more hostile to Marxists than to fucking nazis (asserites, but still). I remember he also said he spent a lot of time chillin with ancaps.

Honestly I just don't know what to make of it. I wish we could have some good namefags. For a long time I wanted to like rebel cause a lot of his videos are good, but it's getting harder to side with him

Now that's utopian.

Muke here, I'm still around I just dont use a flag anymore because everyone assumed any retard with leninhat was me, so people would have a go at me for opinions I didnt even have. I could of tripped but, I'm not that cancerous so I' just user now. It's nicer tbh, dont have to think about what I post as much.

Yeah sure you're muke.

Literally who?

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I still put effort into my opinions, but I mean I dont have to worry about potentially embarassing myself through making a stupid mistake or being flat out wrong on something as there's no name to the post.

Okay, since there are always new people in threads, here is a banal post explaining why it's bad to ever talk about "the middle class".

The word middle has connotations like normal, average, usual. People don't live in super-mixed environments, where everybody got a representative sample of the population as neighbors. Rather, rich people tend to live where other rich people live and poor people tend to live where other people live (even segregating themselves from super-poor people who tend to live where other super-poor people live). So when you ask some poor kids about what they believe about how their family is doing, whether they are middle class, they will usually believe they are middle class, even when they are rather obviously poor. As they get older they get a bit less dumb about it, but the usual from-the-hip answer is, I'm probably normal (=based on what I see how people around me are doing), so I am in the middle.

Now suppose a big coalition of social democrats and bleeding-heart liberals somehow manages to pull off a great education campaign, and suddenly everybody knows how they are doing income-wise relative to the general distribution of income in the population. People aren't becoming Marxists, but they start to have more sympathy towards anything that's not very right-wing, so some tax redistribution scheme based on income difference it is. The problem with that is that is all sorts of tax dodging schemes, and that it doesn't distinguish HOW the income is generated, which is the old-school meaning of class with landlord, employer, worker being the main distinctions. This completely ignores practical considerations. It is possible to take the land from the landlord, but you cannot separate a highly-skilled person from their skill. This fact matters even if you only have reformist aspirations, because it follows from this fact that it is easy to tax a landlord without the landlord being able to shift the tax burden or to reduce supply (these two issues are related!), and it gets more complicated with the professional skilled person. You don't worry that a landlord might leave the country and take a piece of land with him, but you might worry that the professional will leave with what generates his wealth.

Thinking of class in terms of income leads to the short-sighted taxation idea, which is like letting somebody shoot arrows at you while you try to deal with that by catching the arrows instead of grabbing the bow.

Even I don't think Muke is this dumb lad.

once a namefag, always a namefag

God damn nigga that's some high-octane fear of responsibility if true.

Good thing I was never a namefag then. Most I ever did was use a flag.

nice narcissistic personality disorder bro

t. narcissist

If anyone here suddenly had their name attatched to everything they say they'd feel the exact same way.

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Rebel seriously had the fastest decline in post quality and likability I have ever seen on a Chan

based anfem dindu nuffin

When he went post-left, you should have all went post-rebel. The fact that you liked that anemic little shit before that was more telling about you than him.

Just break open the Blair doesn't deserve to be in prison, starter kit senpai.

the day I get a retweet of approval from Carl for shitting on socialist is the day I kill myself.

you got any reading recommendations for more thought on this subject?

you are a middle class socialist, rebel.
Get off your high horse.

ONE OF US!

ftfy

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I just want to be liked.

The sort of point you'd expect your average Reason magazine reader would make. It's amazing how some people can waste their time reading tons of philosophy books but their own insights remain at this level mediocrity.

But middle class and bourgeoisie are synonymous

is fear of embarrassment a narcissistic trait?

middle class = I can afford a house and a car and send my kids to a nice school, I may be employed by someone else or petit bourgeoisie
working class = I am employed by someone else
It really isn't a comparison.

If it's compulsive and causes more anxiety than it normally would for most people, yes

I haven't ready a single book, rightist are easy to refute and lurking leftypol has made it even easier.

I hate this fucking idea that all socialists are middle class posers.

The middle class are mostly closet reactionaries and racists. Utter scum. There are almost no socialists among them.

Yet the accusations thrown at socialists are contradictory. Sometimes we're accused of being bitter poor losers, on the hand, we're accused of being spoilt upper-middle class students. Make up your minds you reactionary shits.

It boils my blood when idiots online sneer at socialists and when the poor are sneered at irl. They should be garroted.

Fucking true. I feel like I respected his opinion just three months ago. Now… Ugh

who here /born into wealth/?

grow a pair

i genuinely don't care about the middle class at all but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice

And middle-class is a term purposely pushed by the bourgeoisie to obscure class tensions by lumping a huge amount of workers under a monolithic title, despite these workers' radically different control over their labor.

He is right that many of those who consider themselves socialists and that are separated from the working-class tradition often have baseless hate for these people, which can most easily be observed (in the US, at least) by asking a variety of self-proclaimed socialists about their opinion on Trump voters.

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The most likable youtubers are PewDiePie and JackSepticEye

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And here I thought he couldn't become anymore unlikable.

Why'd you think that?

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