Challenge & fun

People naturally take the path of least resistance. This means that there's a fine line between what people consider too frustrating and too easy. Game publishers want to cater to the widest audience possible, so they will purposefully create gameplay scenarios that are easy enough that pretty much anyone can get through them, in order to give people an easy hit of satisfaction. They're afraid that if they make games too hard, no one will finish them, which will deter the less dedicated people from buying more. Since they're trying to maximize profits, they think it would just be easier for everyone if the game is easy.

This is why your single player games give your main character all the advantages in the world; this is why in multiplayer settings it is more and more common to find a "compression of skill" that dilutes the need for reaction time or memory or other essential skills by incorporating concessions (easy use, critical effect items). This is also why people have tried to alter what should and should not be considered a video game, and push for more "experiences" or other such nonsense.

The amount of ways this peremptory sentence is wrong is truly staggering. Challenge is never the end goal, never mind the only goal. That is a fact even in games primarily sold as challenging, never mind shit like horror games, porn games, harvest moon and derivatives, western RPGs. Challenge is nothing but a gameplay characteristic, not the reason for a game's existence.

Some people just wanna be comfy. Only virgins who don't have self confidence play for difficulty.

We're a society that's been conditioned to think we're all special and as such, deserving of special treatment. Since most people have been devoid of legitimate difficulties in their lives, they get frustrated at tasks which require dedication and concentration to complete. Challenge flies in the face of the core tenets of our upbringing, as it means some people will triumph and others won't. It's the video game equivalent of race realism; casuals are niggers, but we're not supposed to point out that they suck, or why they suck, because it would hurt feelings. Most importantly, it places the onus of achievement on the shoulders of people who habitually blame everyone and everything they can, if it means they can avoid responsibility. It's far more consumer friendly to have an "everyone's a winner! xD" mentality with millennials.

Does it really matter? There are plenty of games if you want challenge, plenty of games that are accommodating for new players. Its only a problem when the two camps lock horns and argue.

We're all entry level and casual at something. Real life is a challenge but plenty here fail at it and play vidya to escape the pain.

Challenge is the indicator of a goal's existence, dipshit. A goal is something the participants have to reach for. If it gets given for free then it's not a goal.

I say it matters when you've got people who complain about a style of game that caters to those who like challenge and cry about inclusiveness. I know it's a meme to declare Dark Souls as this incredibly difficult game. It really isn't all that hard, but it is an example of a modern game that does not just lay victory at the feet of the player and on a silver platter, so it does piss me off when people cry about it being too hard for their delicate sensibilities.

This is the root of the issue tbh

It's as simple as people being whiny crybabies that can't handle losing. Casual is such a shitty term for these people, because there is nothing casual about the attitude. Just look at the League of Legends community, full of "casuals", yet is one of the angriest gaming communities you will find. What is casual about raging at video games?

That's the point of challenge, tbh

What's the fucking point of a game if you don't struggle to triumph over adversity? If there's no challenge, there's no sense of personal achievement. Since video games are little more than intricate puzzles with a story, why bother playing them if you don't like being challenged? It's like complaining that chess is hard, so it should be made into checkers, or books have too many words, so they should be made into one-page webcomics. Casuals are fucking scum.

There are people who enjoy playing for wahtever reason and games are not always about winning. But playing a game based around skill and/or heavy gameplay and whining about muh difficulty is retarded. Casualization, or basically (as if ds games havent been made easy enough already). This and devs not being able to make good difficulties, relying on retarded ai and huge hitboxes on all difficulties, increasing only damage taken and aimbot ai on higher difficulties, is what is killing fun

People like challenge. Some more than others, but look at how huge ds1 was when it was released. There are plenty of arpgs around but everyone liked the muh difficulty meme. Anyone who says games should be casual and fun is just a phone game cashcow

No, they think that they are good at video games and it is the game's fault if they suck.

Which is why I said its only a problem when the two camps lock horns. A lot of these game journos are Marxists so have to ruin everything.

At least Razorfist can have some good opinions sometimes

BTW: This guy is friends with DSP and he defends DSP's Street Fighter skills.

He might have some amusing content, but holy shit, he can't play video games to save his life. I saw a few minutes of a live stream of his a while back and it was painful.

The problem with challenge from a design standpoint is that the skill difference between different people can be massive(give some people a controller or keyboard and they're like babies who don't understand the concept of motion, other people are like fucking wizards that are so innately good at any system given to them that they can reach heights us mortals can't even fathom), and adding difficulty levels to a game usually just invalidates a lot of the rewarding experience of playing on harder difficulties, and taking the time to implement a good difficulty system is time taken away from developing more important and interesting parts of the game

The one and only goal in a videogame is to have fun. That's it.
Call it a buzzword all you want, videogames are not a lifestyle or a community or an experience. They are a form of entertainment (that is objectively superior to many others) and their final "goal" is to amuse and entertain you.

Chalenge is not a requirement for this, it's a method to achieve it. Some people are entertained by overcoming obstacles and difficulties, thus presenting them problems that they must solve achieves the goal of entertaining them.
Other people prefer escapism fantasies and therefore some RPGs that focus more on the roleplay and less in the chalenge entertain them far more. For these kind of players, being able to sit in a tavern and drink a mug of beer is far more fun than having a fight with a dragon be very, very hard.

Faggots that complain about hard games being hard are just that, faggots. But people that complain about easy games being easy or that not everyone shares their mindset and seeks for the hardest chalenges all the time, are faggots on their own since in the end they want the same: "everyone's standards should meet mine".

If you play videogames just to be better than other people at that particular videogame, one day you'll realize how pointless that is, exactly like the speedrunning community. And when you're surrounded by a handfull of godly players against whom nobody can compete and your game dies because there's no new blood, you'll understand that fun was the only goal all along. Chalenge doesn't turn people off, constant failure does, especially when it's arbitrarily set by other players.

This guy gets it. I actually don't fault people at all who have a casual attitude towards games. The problem is that these people are few and far between. The reality is that most people who would be considered "casual" play video games all the time and consider themselves to be experts at games who then cry when a game shows them they're not.

most people play vidya to relax

so, they want skyrim stuff to just left click with no challenge and mindless grinding with instant teleport

you SHOULD. those people are extremely active on dev forums and game websites and on reddit and social media and they complain constantly if a game is not casual enough

hence, nu-doom, skyrim, death of RTS, etc.

If they can't be bothered to play the game for a long period of time or invest greatly in it, why would they spend all that time in forums, user?
It's not the actual casuals that you see posting there, it's the tryhards that want to be a part of "the gaming experience", that treat videogames as a lifestyle but are too inept at them that bitch and complain on forums all the time.

Actual casuals don't give a fuck. If the game doesn't amuse them, they don't even waste time complaining, they'll go play something else.

well that makes sense, but the result is still the same, games got massively casualized, which was my main problem with the industry

Games got massively casualized because of faggots overhyping difficulty as the best thing ever, which attracted tryhards that wanted to be hardcore but can't, so they'll bitch and complain about it.
And Devs will listen to them because they are a lot of retards willing to fill their pockets for that.

Blame the faggots that can't shut up about good they are at playing videogames attracting the tryhards.

It likely boils down to one of two things; either they player doesn't take videogames seriously as a hobby (they treat it like watching TV) and are looking for a time killer without having to put in effort, or they're too shallow and have never overcome anything terribly difficult in life, and instead want instant gratification. The latter extends beyond videogames of course, while people in the former group can be well balanced and seek out challenges in other ways i.e. other hobbies or their job.

For the most part peoples' inadequacy of playing difficult videos games comes down to their laziness rather than their overall skill. However, they still want to see the end of the game so they can talk about it with their friends, and publishers have picked up on this in some way or another.

I will personally admit that I am fucking abysmal at videogames, but I am also really persistent- and perhaps a glutton for punishment- and won't stop playing until I reach the end for the most part, that is.

Fun > Challenge

That being said, I enjoy a nice dose of both. It's just that challenge isn't exactly a requirement for every single game I play. I sure as hell don't play Zelda or Chibi Robo games for difficulty but, I expect some form of challenge from X-Com or Ys games.

He doesn't form opinions; he picks opinions like accessories. Forming an opinion on a video game means actually playing it which he usually doesn't for games that he doesn't like.

I see OP attempted and failed the "Make a good thread" challenge.

Casuals that think that they are hardcore want games that let them think they are hardcore. So games with violence and gore, games with a lot of padding, and games with mature stories.

But I'm not crying? Hell, I'm even on your side here but I don't have the mental capacity of a child. I can understand why people desire different things than me. As an entertainment medium, vidya has to cater to a multitude of tastes. It's as simple as that. Congrats on making a shit thread where you don't engage in any discussion. Maybe eventually you won't be the insecure wreck that you are now because your entire self-worth derives from how good you are at video game like half of the board here. And you only think you're good because of how many hours you don't want to consider wasted that you spent playing.

busy. still reading, will post tomorrow if it's still up

This tbh

OP is a faggot

All the people who want a challenge went to e-sports and multiplayer shit, because at least you're not mowing down 100s of retarded AI's like it's nothing.

...

Also, artfags thinks challenge is detrimental like how a movie shouldn't be challenging to watch.
"A fail state is a failure of the developer." -David Cage

Yes, this is why people watch movies instead of playing videogames. I like movies, but I don't want them to be like videogames and viceversa.

So angry. And so dumb.

He never claimed it was. If you're striving for a goal but there is no challenge involved then it's hardly a goal. You might as well not play if all you need to win is to walk forwards .

Good post user.

Also a good post, though I don't agree with it entirely.

user pls
not really that much fun or that well written. I would much rather play D&D with real friends. Maybe you ought to head back to NeoGaf where that sort of faggotry is tolerated.

I hear this often, usually with the strong implication that they find their challenges in their professional life. But you're either the type of person who seeks out challenges or not. If you completely shut your brain off as soon as you come home, then how can we believe you are the type to seek challenges at work. Maybe day-to-day life is so challenging for you simply due to the fact that your mind is mush from so much shit TV and shit games.

Coming into this thread specifically to call you a massive flaming faggot.

something something instant gratification generation don't believe they gotta earn shit